View Full Version : Scottish Independence....
Scotland is going to vote on becoming an autonomous nation. It may be that(to quote the Beastie Boys)"You've Got To Fight, For Your Right, To Parrrr-Teee!" I'd guess they prolly want liquor laws that are in alignment with their drinking culture. Let's just hope this political movement doesn't result in the type of problems we see between Russia/Ukraine. Thank Me.
IshbelRobertson
9-9-14, 1:23pm
Your lack of knowledge re the Referendum, simply floors this Scot. Your insulting comments? Awaaaay ya numpty, as we would say.
Does the US State Department know about this upcoming vote? Does anyone at State speak Scots?
Does the US State Department know about this upcoming vote? Does anyone at State speak Scots?I think the Scots can prolly handle English, or a variation thereof. The real question is: Does anyone at The State Department wear kilts?
Your lack of knowledge re the Referendum, simply floors this Scot. Your insulting comments? Awaaaay ya numpty, as we would say. Well, I have a VAST lack of knowledge about practically EVERYTHING! Ha. So, perhaps YOU can enlighten us. If Independence becomes a reality, will they secure the entry points, build a fence, have a border patrol, to keep illegals from crossing? Border Towns, specializing in all kinds of vices, etc., may spring up. Unintended Consequences, Y'know. Just trying to help...
Your lack of knowledge re the Referendum, simply floors this Scot. Your insulting comments? Awaaaay ya numpty, as we would say.
So, Ishbel, do you care to share on where you stand on the referendum?
Well, I have a VAST lack of knowledge about practically EVERYTHING! Ha. So, perhaps YOU can enlighten us. If Independence becomes a reality, will they secure the entry points, build a fence, have a border patrol, to keep illegals from crossing? Border Towns, specializing in all kinds of vices, etc., may spring up. Unintended Consequences, Y'know. Just trying to help...
They may try and build a wall between England and Scotland - to keep the English out! Now there's a novelty!
Seriously, independence would be very damaging for the UK as a whole. We're better together!
iris lilies
9-9-14, 9:20pm
I was planning to start a thread about this topic a few days hence because I wanted to know what our UK posters think.
What is the projection for North Sea oil to continue to pump out at its current high rate, I mean, how many generations? I was in Scotland, especially the Aberdeen area, soon after oil production got big in the late 1970's and all of the newspaper headlines were always some drilling story. It is the means for Scotland to wave goodbye to their southern neighbors.
DH has Scottish cousins, and one of them works in the west of England. I wonder what her status becomes if Scotland separates?
This is a very big deal. Scotland and England have shared a monarchy since 1566 but the real governing union took place in 1707. I'm glad I don't live there and have to vote on this issue, I'd have a very hard time with it. While on one hand, this IS the chance of a generation to make the separation for which Scots have been calling for a long long time (centuries!) OTOH it IS a big unknown how the separation will really affect all things. I was happy to see in the news that the Queen will remain head of state for Scotland, regardless of what takes place. ;)
I can barely understand how Northern Ireland now fits in with and remains part of the UK. If Scotland separates it will be more separate than Northern Ireland is separate. That's a really big deal.
I think there's a better way to proceed.
Overthrow the German usurpers, and put a Scotsman back on the throne of England.
:-)
http://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/images/bruceclancrest.jpg
iris lilies
9-9-14, 10:02pm
I think there's a better way to proceed.
Overthrow the German usurpers, and put a Scotsman back on the throne of England.
:-)
http://www.scotsconnection.com/clan_crests/images/bruceclancrest.jpg
Restoring Stuarts to their rightful place always has my vote.
iris lilies
9-9-14, 10:03pm
catherine, ,what does your husband say about the vote?
You know, I have to ask him! He hasn't said much about it--he's been too caught up laughing his "heed" off at this Robin Williams clip about how the Scots invented golf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFVkD4Rvuag
But I know my MIL would have voted to stay in UK. She liked being part of British monarchy and she loved Queen Elizabeth--they were the same age, and they kind of grew up together. Plus, I think she saw good political reasons for being in the UK.
I've wondered if Scotland would leave the UK - and then join the EU while England leaves.
As I understand it, there is some dispute over whether Scotland would stay with the pound, whether through a formal currency union, or informally (like Ecuador using the dollar). There also seems to be some disagreement over how the national debt would be allocated. I feel for the credit rating agencies right now. The UK's nuclear capability would almost certainly migrate south. Since Scotland votes pretty reliably left, the Conservatives would probably gain influence in a rump UK. I've heard both sides of Hadrian's Wall claim they contribute more taxes to the other, so I have no idea which is right.
In any case, this strikes me as the sort of issue that is settled more on emotional terms than rational calculation.
Inititially, the UK was an Empire, a Nation State. But now, their culture doesn't differ greatly(except for excesses of booze/golf/kilts/thriftiness), and they are intertwined like Siamese Twins sharing the same vital organs. So, it might be very impractical to separate the two. Makes me think it might be more smoke than fire, like the perennial Puerto Rican Independence movement, or the secessionists getting up petitions in various U.S states. At least there is no violence,(is there?) such as that we've heard about in Northern Ireland over the years.
iris lilies
9-10-14, 2:23pm
Inititially, the UK was an Empire, a Nation State. But now, their culture doesn't differ greatly(except for excesses of booze/golf/kilts/thriftiness), and they are intertwined like Siamese Twins sharing the same vital organs. So, it might be very impractical to separate the two. Makes me think it might be more smoke than fire, like the perennial Puerto Rican Independence movement, or the secessionists getting up petitions in various U.S states. At least there is no violence,(is there?) such as that we've heard about in Northern Ireland over the years.
There were cannons in George Square (Glasgow) in my lifetime over this independence issue, at least a native told me this while we were standing in George Square. Am looking around Goggle to find the evidence.
But no Troubles as went on for decades in Northern Ireland.
I can barely understand how Northern Ireland now fits in with and remains part of the UK. If Scotland separates it will be more separate than Northern Ireland is separate. That's a really big deal. At least Scotland and England will share a border unlike Northern Ireland and will most likely be on friendly terms with the UK as a separate country - much like us and Canada. In Ireland, once the south became independent of the UK, many in Northern Ireland (various factions) did not want to be beholden to foreign country who doesn't even share the same land mass and, in essence, where viewed as usurpers and Imperialists or worse. Can you tell who I support :-)!
I live in Scotland too & still don't know which way to vote.Maybe I'm just very skeptical, but I can't foresee any significant positive changes either way simply because whichever way it goes we're stuck with the same old basic economic priorities of profit before people and globalised and/or outsourced business and industry instead of local. I don't see how the small financial incentives suggested by the SNP would greatly alter that or the gap between rich and poor.
I've wondered if Scotland would leave the UK - and then join the EU while England leaves.
I didn't think the remainder of the UK & NI (if Scotland became independent) had plans to leave the EU, not even with recent UKIP gains. Depends who comes into power in the 2015 general election perhaps, but it seems like an unlikely move.
gimmethesimplelife
9-13-14, 8:48pm
I think if Scotland does part ways with Britain, this will only make the succession efforts in Catalonia I think it is in Spain more likely to succeed. Rob
^ yes, the Catalans are paying a lot of attention to what's happening here.
IshbelRobertson
9-14-14, 9:08am
Mira
Did you see the LOL people?
Talk about a victory for the Ayes!
Ishbel - who are the LOL people?
Gardenarian
9-14-14, 11:39am
I was in Scotland this summer and heard a lot of people saying that celebrities (like Sean Connery) who spend little time in Scotland were pushing for independence the hardest. Pretty much every town we traveled through had booths promoting unity, but most of the people I spoke to were undecided on the issue. Or at least they weren't saying :)
I do understand the need for at least symbolic independence. I know next to nothing about the nuts and bolts, though first impressions are that the economy in Scotland might suffer from the break.
In many cases I do support secession - I think it is crazy that Hawaii was ever made a state, and do think they should be given independence.
I also support Vermont in their fight; the U.S. has become a war-mongering, earth-destroying machine, and I'm quite pleased that Vermont is standing up and saying they want no part of that.
I also believe that California should be broken into smaller states, as the current Senate representation is not equitable (and for other reasons as well.)
IshbelRobertson
9-15-14, 4:38am
Ishbel - who are the LOL people?
Loyal Orange Lodge..... Ie the nutters from Norn Ireland, Liverpool and our West coast
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/orange-order-rally-over-evil-threat-to-union-1-3541170
Loyal Orange Lodge..... Ie the nutters from Norn Ireland, Liverpool and our West coast
http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/orange-order-rally-over-evil-threat-to-union-1-3541170
I was in Northern Ireland - and in Belfast mostly for a month in Spring of 1981 when Bobby Sands died and have some not-so-fond memories of the Orange Lodge. But then I have some not-so-fond memories of Belfast (a city I think would be wonderful if I was there another time) which was in serious lockdown then - as was most of Northern Ireland. I was in the coast guard then and combining a visit with a job assignment otherwise I would have been wise to stay away. But it was an interesting time to be there.
gimmethesimplelife
9-15-14, 11:18am
I was in Scotland this summer and heard a lot of people saying that celebrities (like Sean Connery) who spend little time in Scotland were pushing for independence the hardest. Pretty much every town we traveled through had booths promoting unity, but most of the people I spoke to were undecided on the issue. Or at least they weren't saying :)
I do understand the need for at least symbolic independence. I know next to nothing about the nuts and bolts, though first impressions are that the economy in Scotland might suffer from the break.
In many cases I do support secession - I think it is crazy that Hawaii was ever made a state, and do think they should be given independence.
I also support Vermont in their fight; the U.S. has become a war-mongering, earth-destroying machine, and I'm quite pleased that Vermont is standing up and saying they want no part of that.
I also believe that California should be broken into smaller states, as the current Senate representation is not equitable (and for other reasons as well.)Gardenian, Thank You for your post. I was not aware of Vermont wanting to secede and I googled and read about this. Very interesting. I doubt it will ever happen but very interesting nonetheless and I have nothing but respect for Vermont for wanting out of the union - though I do question what this would do to Vermont economically? Rob
Gardenarian
9-15-14, 11:39am
I have nothing but respect for Vermont for wanting out of the union - though I do question what this would do to Vermont economically? Rob
I wonder that too. They do get a lot of money from tourism, but what else? Maple syrup?
I was in Scotland this summer and heard a lot of people saying that celebrities (like Sean Connery) who spend little time in Scotland were pushing for independence the hardest. Pretty much every town we traveled through had booths promoting unity, but most of the people I spoke to were undecided on the issue. Or at least they weren't saying :)
I do understand the need for at least symbolic independence. I know next to nothing about the nuts and bolts, though first impressions are that the economy in Scotland might suffer from the break.
In many cases I do support secession - I think it is crazy that Hawaii was ever made a state, and do think they should be given independence.
I also support Vermont in their fight; the U.S. has become a war-mongering, earth-destroying machine, and I'm quite pleased that Vermont is standing up and saying they want no part of that.
I also believe that California should be broken into smaller states, as the current Senate representation is not equitable (and for other reasons as well.)
I think the US has no choice taking on some of the wars of the world, someone needs to stand up to terrorism and genocide. I think Britain and Europe now also should take action against the I.S.
ApatheticNoMore
9-15-14, 11:53am
I also believe that California should be broken into smaller states, as the current Senate representation is not equitable (and for other reasons as well.)
It will definitely not be equitable on the 6 California's plan either as almost the entire population of the state would be in two "states" while the other 4 had barely anyone in them (but hey another initiative noone wanted, pushed by some billionaire - ps I still support the initiative process as such). If they just wanted to split into southern CA and northern CA it might make some sense.
Gardenarian
9-15-14, 12:11pm
It will definitely not be equitable on the 6 California's plan either as almost the entire population of the state would be in two "states" while the other 4 had barely anyone in them (but hey another initiative noone wanted, pushed by some billionaire - ps I still support the initiative process as such). If they just wanted to split into southern CA and northern CA it might make some sense.
Yes, I agree entirely.
I'm pretty sure my county would be happy to leave the USA, either to become a micronation, or to join up with British Columbia.
Gardenarian
9-15-14, 1:38pm
I think it's great that in Scotland you can vote when you are 16. I wonder what effect that has had on elections?
There was an article in today's NYT against independence: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/opinion/scots-must-vote-nae.html?_r=0
My cousin is in Scotland last week and this week for the Masters Highland Games. His 2nd time there and he's placed and even broken a Guinness World Record. I keep hoping he'll mention this vote issue in his daily updates but I guess he is too busy throwing things and trying to keep his kilt down. He'll take a few extra days to revisit the family places and try to gather more info.
IshbelRobertson
9-15-14, 6:07pm
I think it's great that in Scotland you can vote when you are 16. I wonder what effect that has had on elections?
There was an article in today's NYT against independence: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/15/opinion/scots-must-vote-nae.html?_r=0
You cannot vote in General Elections in Scotland at 16 (although you can marry with parental agreement). This is an SNP ploy for this referendum only.
I think we're seeing an interesting tension in Europe between centralizing and decentralizing tendencies. If places like Scotland, Catalonia, or chunks of Belgium or Italy begin setting up as smallish boutique states (for reasons both canny and thrawn), what does that signify for the E.U. project? Would that make it easier or more difficult for Brussels to regulate a single economy?
Or how about their mutual security? Even now, Europe has proven unable to deal with the Bosnian Serbs or Libyans without assistance. Wouldn't continued fragmentation encourage the people interested in setting up a Universal Caliphate or Greater Russia, especially in light of what appears to be a waning American appetite for intervention in world affairs?
One news story I read that was covering the pre-election events said that Scots "were preparing to stay up all night in bars". Ha. Since when is that news? I thought they did that anyhow. Another story shows buildings being painted Plaid color schemes. That figures.
It looks, from early election reports, that when it comes right down to it, those Scots would just as soon keep things the way they are. They are very conservative---change costs money. But, then again---it was reported in headlines that Dewey Defeated Truman. So, it ain't over, until the last stuffed ballot box is counted up.
IshbelRobertson
9-19-14, 6:53am
The status of Scotland remains the same. Now the promises made will have to be placed before Parliament.
The status of Scotland remains the same. Now the promises made will have to be placed before Parliament.
Ah that's good that it's settled.
Ah that's good that it's settled.
Maybe - 55% to 45% doesn't sound settled. I heard speeches calling this issue settled for a generation, but it may come back much sooner. Especially if promises made aren't kept.
Well, latest news is, Alex Salmond, Scotlands' Minister of Whatever, Flounced out of his post. Sore Loser. I'm looking to see if he was wearing kilts & carrying a bagpipe when he turned in his keys to the washroom. I'll bet he was a bit hung over, though. Go home & sleep it over--they'll be expecting you bright & early, Monday Morning.
Gotta say I was disappointed by the outcome of the vote but, like with Northern Ireland, if the majority want to remain part of the UK then I guess that's what they want.
IshbelRobertson
9-21-14, 6:07pm
Yes. It's interesting to hear the views of foreigners but, ultimately, it is our views that matter and the majority vote rules!
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