Is being independent of the system a goal for you in simple living?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Or is it more living more simply within the system? I am asking this as I am going to be 48 in November and I am thinking more and more how I'd like my life to be, either here or in another country and this is a theme that keeps coming up - more independent of the system (off grid, growing my own food, that kind of thing) or living more simply within the framework of this or some other country. What works for you, and has this been an issue in living simpler for you? Rob

[iris lilies]

I've got no interest in living off grid. I love the urban core where I live due to its walkability and all of the entertainment it offers close by. We are meat eaters, so to grow any more "food" other than the huge loads of vegetables and fruit that we already grow, our only choice is chickens. I don't want to be tied down with more animal chores, so that is out.

In order to have land for raising a cow, a pig, and really to have adequate land to grow the iris and lilies that I want, we would have to move outside of the city. And I HATE the idea of driving all of the time, can't stand that idea. Won't do it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It's one solution to the problem (what's the problem? Survival of course, survivalism is one solution). The problem with it as a solution is it tends to take a lot of physical effort, which is one thing when your young, and another thing entirely when your old (ie it often becomes not doable. I guess the traditional solution to that is breeding and having one's kids support you. But that's a really stupid reason to bring a person into the world at this point in time IMO!).

I think one can choose to do some things outside the system (say barter for a haircut for instance), perhaps even to the point where it is a not insignificant chunk of one's economic activity (even if there is no trade involved growing food etc. is an economic activity), but that is not total freedom from the system. I live in an apartment, so no it's not off the grid.

[catherine]

I'm with IL to a great extent. I really appreciate living near basic amenities. As much as I love Vermont, I hate that everything is so far away that you really need a gas-powered vehicle. My idea of heaven is never needing a car and being able to walk everywhere to get what I need. That's why I love Ocean Grove (God's Happy Mile), NJ and Burlington, VT.

My other huge criterion is living near enough to my children whereby I don't need to fly to see them somewhat regularly. (And they live in Burlington VT, so I've got 2 for 2 there. And actually, IL also has the best of both worlds--urban living with a great garden! Perfect!)

At the same time, I think our culture needs some (ahem) readjustment, and I've played around with the idea of retiring to an eco-village or something along those lines, but I'm at that age where you know in your heart that changing the world starts within yourself. So, I'll live as simply as I can, wherever I am, and be an activist for the things that matter to me to the extent that I can, in one of the many wonderful communities we have here in the NE.

[bae]

What does "the system" even mean?

I have no desire to live in a Ted Kaczynski cabin deep in the woods, making my own clothes out of bark, my medicines out of distilled squirrels, and talking to moss for entertainment.

I like to live in community with others, where we all have better lives from our voluntary mutual interactions.

I don't like to live in large anonymous cities.

For lunch today, I'm having a plate of tamales I picked up at the farmer's market. They didn't cost me anything. I did a favor for the cook last week, with no expectations other than good will. Good will tastes like smoked pork tamales, as it turns out :-)



Let your community be small, with only a few people;
Keep tools in abundance, but do not depend upon them;
Appreciate your life and be content with your home;
Sail boats and ride horses, but don't go too far;
Keep weapons and armour, but do not employ them;
Let everyone read and write,
Eat well and make beautiful things.

Live peacefully and delight in your own society;
Dwell within cock-crow of your neighbours,
But maintain your independence from them.

[Selah]

I like living simply and well, within the system. I never desired to get out of the system per se, but have enjoyed searching for simplicity in a variety of environments: urban, suburban, and rural. All of these environments have their pros and cons, and demand different levels of complexity according to the limitations of the environment. For example, living way out in "the sticks" meant shopping was a bigger deal in terms of travel and planning as opposed to living in a city where I could just run out of my apartment into a shop two doors down. On the other hand, having a car in the city was a heck of a lot more complicated than having one parked cozily next to my house in the desert. Etc., etc.

[ApatheticNoMore]

At the same time, I think our culture needs some (ahem) readjustment, and I've played around with the idea of retiring to an eco-village or something along those lines, but I'm at that age where you know in your heart that changing the world starts within yourself. So, I'll live as simply as I can, wherever I am, and be an activist for the things that matter to me to the extent that I can, in one of the many wonderful communities we have here in the NE.

+1 depends on the goal: complete survivalism - tough row to hoe - certain advancements of civilization (medicine mostly and I know it has problems too), plus the social safety net etc. are hard to find replacements for. Cutting expenses - sure there are alternate means of providing some things that may save one money, that's not asking for the world. Non-participation in an unethical system - hard to get out of completely, but one can do what one can, shop less, drive less, shop ethically when one can, encourage alternatives etc..

[Gardenarian]

Hmm, I don't really want to be part of THIS system (U.S. civilization.) I'm trying to fight it from within.
Never give up!

[awakenedsoul]

No, it's not really part of my goal. I like having options. I do a little of both. I grow a lot of fruit, (and some vegetables,) but I also frequent Sprouts and our organic food co op. I enjoy knitting my own clothes and gifts, but also buy things now and then at the Salvation Army or T.J. Maxx. I may buy a composting toilet soon. My American Standard from the 70's is filling up too high. (again.) Since I've already had it rebuilt twice, I'll try a composting variety. I go back and forth, depending on the situation. I was really glad I had health insurance when I had the bike accident. I was so impressed with the paramedics, doctors, and their new techniques. I like having that available if I need it. Taking the bus and going car free has gone well, but it really was a lot of work at times, (for the heavy items...) especially in the dog days of summer. I started to worry that I couldn't do all that biking and hauling in my old age. So, having a car to use once a week, or when I need it makes me feel more secure.
For me, it's a little of this and a little of that...I tried the Wonder Wash, but I really prefer my Kenmore washer. I will continue to line dry, though. I also enjoy being 5 mins. from our knitting shop, the gym and pool, grocery stores and pharmacies, etc. I feel like I have the best of both worlds. I can have farm animals and grow food, yet I'm a few miles from the post office, library, and shops...I also love my cell phone, computer, and the Internet.

[iris lilies]

...

I like to live in community with others, where we all have better lives from our voluntary mutual interactions.

I don't like to live in large anonymous cities.


My community IS small, we consider our neighborhood to be a village. It's all walkable, and closeby now we've got a grocery store, a pharmacy, boutique restaurants and shops. Within 3/4 of a mile we have the oldest farmer's market west of the Mississippi dating from the 1700's. And then, today DH and I went to a weenie roast in the community garden over in our "other" neighborhood where there are great people working to make it better although there are too many people NOT working to make it better over there.

So in the big city we band together in areas that have defined borders and it really means something to be from X neighborhood. I don't know everyone in the city but I do know lots of people from my neighborhood and from those in the contiguous neighborhoods.

One can have close neighborhoods anywhere, cities don't have to be anonymous.

[Teacher Terry]

We just moved into town 2 years ago from an outlying suburb. I love being back in town & only 2 miles from downtown so we walk to the festivals, etc. We live in a medium size town. WE have fruit trees & small garden but that's it. We only want to spend a limited amount of time on that. I love our neighborhood-older homes, established trees, small park-great place to walk the dogs & we are getting to know many of our neighbors from our walks. We mainly buy experiences instead of things. Excluding fixing up the house/yard. I love being outside so that is a high priority.

[SteveinMN]

One can have close neighborhoods anywhere, cities don't have to be anonymous.
That is exactly the case here in St. Paul, too. St. Paul is very neighborhood-centric -- more so than Minneapolis and much more so than the suburbs. I know every neighbor in a three-house radius of our house and several others who live beyond that. Voluntary mutual interactions, better lives, the whole bit. All in a metropolitan area of almost four million people.

[ToomuchStuff]

While I agree with Bae's "what is the system" (because in part, it is what you make use of it) I have to say even Kaczynski didn't completely keep to himself. I met a friends cousin, whose father owned the hardware store where he tried to buy bits for the last bomb when caught (the kid kicked him out as an oddball).
Even if you lived "offgrid", you still have to deal with the system, when you need a manufactured good, to repair something such as your solar panels, or wind turbines, or water purification system.
As others mentioned, do I want to be a 70 year old farmer, working 7 days a week until I die?

[Spartana]

I prefer to live simply within the system and personally I think it is the only way the massive amounts of people on the planet can exist. If everyone in the world, or even the USA, or even a big metro area like NYC or LA, wanted 5 acres of land to live off -grid there just wouldn't be enough useable land to go around. Picture even one high rise apt population in NYC sprawling into the countryside to live independent of the system - add to that the 10's of millions more in just one city that want the same. No way would that be sustainable. So working within the system to make IT more sustainable is the way of the future IMHO. Plus I'm a lazy girl who just wants to turn on a tap and flush a toilet and have someone else grow my food :-)!

[Songbird]

DH and I wanted to live off the grid a few years ago. After looking into solar, etc. we found it to be just too expensive for us. It would take years for a complete solar system to pay for itself, and really not practical as we don't have enough sunny days here so would have had to have another energy source back-up during the long cold winters. We didn't relish the idea of hauling in our own water and having a compost toilet either. And with my arthritis I really need a daily longish hot shower. It's essential to my wellbeing.... So we continue to rely on the system and am actually very thankful for it as we age.

We downsized to a tiny cabin, grow our own veggies, and are able to walk or bicycle to most of the places we need to go. I am very glad at this point in my life, being retired with some health problems, that we are so close to the city. And glad we didn't buy that isolated house out in the country where we thought we wanted to live a few years ago. It sure wouldn't work for us now...

[awakenedsoul]

Yeah, I'm glad I don't like far from town now, either. When I was in my early thirties I rented a beautiful little adobe guest house in Santa Fe, NM. It was ten miles from town. I had to put chains on my tires to drive anywhere in the winter. I lived up on a mountain, and the road was harrowing in the snow.
Fast forward to my cottage in California. My electric bill here is only around $11.00 in the cold season. The highest my bill has ever been was $40.00 during triple digit heat temperatures in the summer. I've cut that way down, now that the shade trees have matured. Going solar wouldn't be worth the cost for me, either. Since I started using the jacuzzi at the gym, my gas bill is only about $15.00 a month. Water is expensive, ($80.00 per home, regardless of usage,) but I need it for my orchard and garden. I like being able to grow food, but not having to grow it. Living close to the bus stop makes it easy to get around with or without a car. As I get older, I am so thankful that the first house I bought was so small. It's perfect for retirement, and I won't have to bother with selling or moving.

[RichLife]

I am certainly interested in acquiring more DIY skills. There are so many easy fixes you can do yourself to avoid having to replace something or extend its lifestyle. This leads to consuming less and being more independent. Living off the grid isn't for me I feel, but I'd be interested in perhaps having a little balcony garden for my apartment because it is an enjoyable hobby. I see saving money here as a secondary benefit. Time is money and so I don't feel I could make it worth my while so I'd rather just do it for pleasure.

[Spartana]

This is a great question. I thought a lot about it a few years ago when I was living in a paid-off cabin in the woods and thinking I'd really nailed the simple life. A few years into it, I realized rural living is really hard. Now I live downtown near most of the things and activities I want and need. This to me is the simple life. I have come to embrace the system I once tried to escape.Me too. I've always said I'd be happiest in a small apt in a small city but close to nature just outside the city limits. I'd like to be where everything is close by and walkable/bikable/public transit so could be car free. Tiny place with no yard to care for that required very little to heat or cool or in water usage. Almost zero maintenance except cleaning. Just a lock-it and go kind of place I really don't have to even think about. I always say my greatest simple living goal in life is to NOT have a "to-do" list of endless chores any longer. I think getting a small place in a quaint small city would make that possible. Having a dog/s has made that less doable (like to have a house with a yard for the yappy dog - AKA The Barkinator) but someday!

[Packy]

I really don't have an opinion one way or another, but this discussion certainly has been very interesting!