Elderly parents who are emotionally abusive

[rodeosweetheart]

thank you for all your help; need to forgive and move on

[catherine]

In my mind, you have paid your debt to your parents by growing up to be a wonderful, functioning, caring human being. I honestly don't think you owe them more than that.

I know how difficult this must be for you, and I am truly sorry. When I am around difficult addicted family members, I try (with mixed success) to detach emotionally, and physically if I have to. If I were in your shoes, there is no way I would choose to be around him after 3pm if that's his witching hour for drinking. If I were up for it, I'd visit him in the morning for a little while. If not, don't feel guilty. (My favorite Gabor Mate quote is one which he quotes from an addictions counselor who advises family members: "If you're going to choose between guilt and resentment, choose guilt every time.")

I think anything you do for him now should be for you, in the sense that it helps you come to terms with the end of his life.

I'm so sorry, rodeosweetheart.

[Florence]

As long as you will put up with it, he will keep dishing it out. He is who he is. It's a shame but there it is. If they ask for help, do what you can to find help, wish them well, & walk away. IMHO.

[rodeosweetheart]

. (My favorite Gabor Mate quote is one which he quotes from an addictions counselor who advises family members: "If you're going to choose between guilt and resentment, choose guilt every time.")

I think anything you do for him now should be for you, in the sense that it helps you come to terms with the end of his life.

.

Catherine, thank you for such a kind response. I am focusing in on that quote and trying to understand it. Does it mean, choose the guilt (that you didn't do something or be with that person) over the resentment (you did and see how it turns out?)

IT's this how to detach that is so hard, and you have really hit the nail on the head as to how it's hard and why it's hard.

Thank you, your thoughts mean so much to me.

[SteveinMN]

As long as you will put up with it, he will keep dishing it out. He is who he is. It's a shame but there it is. If they ask for help, do what you can to find help, wish them well, & walk away. IMHO.
I agree. "Dad" obviously does not want to change old habits; it's unlikely anything rodeosweetheart can do or say at this point will make a difference.

And while I understand the sibling dynamic here, I see no need for rodeosweetheart to feel obligated to care for her parents when her brothers won't. If Dad were suffering from Alzheimer's and abusive and violent to others, he likely would not be able to be cared for at home. Well, in this case, the reason for the behavior may be different but the outcome is not. Dad simply is not stable enough medically or emotionally to be cared for by rodeosweetheart; end of story.

rodeosweetheart, I'd be tempted to keep a couple of the more abusive emails just as a reminder to you and your brothers -- almost a cautionary tale as it were. But I'd ignore the rest. Don't even bother reading them unless you know there is some good reason to do so. Be helpful but don't sacrifice yourself to your father's decision to punish himself.

[EDIT] rodeosweetheart, if your father really is that far gone on a regular basis, he may not even be aware of his behavior or its effect on you. Guilt over not being there may not even be noticed. Just a thought.

[JaneV2.0]

I bought a sewing machine some time ago from a woman who told me that she had quit her well-paid job to care of her elderly mother who made no secret of the fact that she favored her son, and constantly praised and fawned over him while taking her for granted. Her brother rarely visited, and didn't contribute much to his mother's care. After their mother died this woman was left destitute. She told me this story with a brittle smile on her face; she probably told it to everyone she met. I couldn't help thinking that this is probably a very common occurrence.

I haven't had this experience, so my advice has its limits, but I would absolutely not sacrifice myself for a man who has never been a loving father. If you can't stand up to him--if you can catch him sober--perhaps you can put more distance--physical and emotional--between you and let your brothers deal with him.

[CathyA]

Wow, this is a hard one, Rodeosweetheart.

I agree with what everyone else has said. Personally, I "divorced" my father when I was about 30. He died when I was about 55. He was an abusive, hateful man (also a minister). I have NEVER regretted being done with him. And I divorced my mother about 23 years ago. Yes, we let her live in our old condo for a good price, but I never talked to her. and yes, when the police called and said she was driving erratically in another town late at night (at age 85), I got her into a nursing home. But I never regretted that "divorce" either.

I always felt there was absolutely no "obligation" to care for them, if they were sh*t parents. they were toxic, and I had to distance myself from them.
I think a lot of people feel like you do and I think it comes from way back when we were children and being controlled by them was really a matter of life and death. But that's not it any more. But we still feel like we have to do what they ask.

Maybe you could talk to someone (professional) about ways to make sure they get the care they need, without you being closely involved? I would definitely tell your brothers that you're backing away, and if your parents need help......they need to be the ones giving it to them.

Really Rodeo........Try to work at not feeling this obligation and guilt over people who don't seem to notice your goodness.

And my brother would always get angry with me when I would try to talk to him about my mother or father. I think he was in denial......but also, they were different to him. His experience, for the most part, was different from mine. So don't let anyone tell you you're imagining that they've treated your brothers differently than you. It's all so complex.

How do you do it? Well, I would say stop communicating with them. If they ask for help, forwarding it on to your brothers, or involve some agency.
Good luck to you Rodeosweetheart! And feel free to always ask for help here. There are so many good, reasonable people on here! :)

[catherine]

I am focusing in on that quote and trying to understand it. Does it mean, choose the guilt (that you didn't do something or be with that person) over the resentment (you did and see how it turns out?)


It means, you are far better off cutting off ties and thinking of yourself over the other person (and potentially feeling guilty about it) rather doing what you think you "should" do and wind up feeling resentful about it. This is because it's resentment that will eat you from the inside out--not guilt.

Actually, this is how Gabor Mate explains it:


“If refusal to take on responsibility for another person’s behaviours burdens you with guilt, while consenting to it leaves you eaten by resentment, opt for the guilt. Resentment is soul suicide.”

[sweetana3]

Guilt can make you sad but resentment can make you bitter and they are worlds apart. Resentment can turn into anger and be a life consuming attitude.

[CathyA]

Now Rodeo is probably really confused. I think we all tend to answer in terms of what has worked for us personally. I absolutely never had any guilt....but that's just me.........But then again, I did give my mother a little help towards the end. Can't say how I would have felt, had I not.
But Rodeo is sacrificing her own feelings over and over for someone who never seems to care about her. Hopefully she feels she deserves better.......than continuing in the same way OR feeling guilty for cutting ties.
Hopefully Rodeosweetheart, there's somewhere in-between those 2 choices that you can find a acceptable compromise with.

[catherine]

Now Rodeo is probably really confused. I think we all tend to answer in terms of what has worked for us personally. I absolutely never had any guilt....but that's just me.........But then again, I did give my mother a little help towards the end. Can't say how I would have felt, had I not.
But Rodeo is sacrificing her own feelings over and over for someone who never seems to care about her. Hopefully she feels she deserves better.......than continuing in the same way OR feeling guilty for cutting ties.
Hopefully Rodeosweetheart, there's somewhere in-between those 2 choices that you can find a acceptable compromise with.

Maybe you never felt guilt, but many people might. My personal filter is one of tending to feel I can "save" people and I "should" do for others whatever I can no matter how much I'm beat up. In my case, those "others" have been all those people who are so wonderful, and have so much potential, but who happen to be totally wrapped up in their addictions. It's hard to deal with. It's not just divorcing a mean b**dard. It's wanting to save Jeckyll from Hyde. Impossible.

So I often need to hear the message that it's fine to accept the guilt and move on and let people make their own beds and lie in them--saving myself from resentment, which is worse. So the message shouldn't be confusing. It's meant to do the opposite and clarify the two choices.

[Teacher Terry]

I am really sorry to hear of your difficult situation. I would be careful to protect myself emotionally. Talk to good friends about this or even a counselor if you feel the need. Take Care.

[razz]

Just a thought - there are ways of tending to abusive parents without personally seeing them and experiencing abuse. You might ensure that that they are monitored by a neighbour, talk to their family physician about the situation and ask to be alerted to the need for acute care. Others may have better ideas. Withdraw from abuse.

[Sad Eyed Lady]

One thing I would add, when your brother, (or was it brothers?), is telling you how great Dad is and how he cares for you then just forward one of his emails and let him/them read it. Should clear that up!

[iris lilies]

One thing I would add, when your brother, (or was it brothers?), is telling you how great Dad is and how he cares for you then just forward one of his emails and let him/them read it. Should clear that up!

Maybe, but I wouldn't bother. To me, that's just a waste of time, trying to convince someone else that Someone is a bully. It doesn't really matter what the brothers think, OP is bullied by her father, period.

OP, I think it's interesting that you've already told us about the boundaries your brothers have defined--they won't bother with dear old dad and mom until their elderly parents move to their hometown. I would say: let 'em move there. Or not.

Notice how the brothers have set a boundary. The elders may comply or not.

[Blackdog Lin]

Having no wisdom or advise to give, I'd just like to send you some love and prayers for your health and mental well-being during this. Hang in there.....

[iris lily]

That's a very interesting and insightful thought about guilt vs resentment.

[rodeosweetheart]

Thank you very much for these thoughtful replies, I am reading them and rereading them and thinking about what you are all saying.

[rodeosweetheart]

rodeosweetheart, if your father really is that far gone on a regular basis, he may not even be aware of his behavior or its effect on you. Guilt over not being there may not even be noticed. Just a thought.

Steve, I think you are absolutely right, and it is really almost funny, when you think about it. When my husband is there with me, we find ourselves laughing at how predictable his behavior is, in scapegoating me--it truly does reach comic proportions at times. He was not there with me for this visit, which made it harder to deal with, but the dynamic clearer, since dad doesn't bother to reign himself in as he does when my husband is there.

What makes me sad is what makes every child of a "drunk" as he calls himself sad-- that I keep remembering the good dad that he was, the loving father that he was/is some of the times.

He told us last year that "alcohol was his true friend, his longest and best relationship, the one that never let him down."

I guess I kept waiting for all this pre-death clarity, this wonderful healing that is supposed to come with terminal illness--I think now, though, that it is affecting his mind a bit. My brothers do not see this in him, how his memory is slipping a bit, and his thinking. They think he is still their wonderful superdad that he always was to them. So their "solutions" to his problems seem out of touch with the reality of his physical, mental, and emotional limitations. He appealed to me for my advice about some things they wanted him to do, like travel to visit them, and revealed that he was feeling he could no longer do these things and felt guilt at letting them down. I gave him my honest opinion, and told him that I did not think he was up to what they proposed, and to let himself off the hook--he did not need to feel guilty--but then he twists it around and blames me in speaking to them, or blames my mom--anything but just admitting that he is no longer superdad and can no longer do the things they want him to do.

Oh well, poor guy, I just need to keep my emotional distance and remember that he is going to do this, to turn on me, but still help him as much as I can.

[Zoe Girl]

Sending love and care and energy. It doesn't seem like there is a lot of change possible but a lot of time to pass trying to stay sane.

I will say as the black sheep in my family sharing those emails won't help at all. It is amazingly easy for someone to say you basically deserve that treatment when you share. If that is how the family has been wired a long time then it doesn't match reality.

My only help has been a LOT of years of meditation. I wonder how effective it has been sometimes when I am still cranky and in negative emotions, but then I try to think where I easily could be. It relates to this because after a REALLY long time of learning how to soften around my mother and keep boundaries I have on occasion seen some change in her, I do see change in me. On family visits I always bring my cushion and out of 25 years I think the last 5 it has been somewhat accepted.

[CathyA]

Good luck to you Rodeosweetheart. Take care of your own needs too.

[CathyA]

Maybe you never felt guilt, but many people might. My personal filter is one of tending to feel I can "save" people and I "should" do for others whatever I can no matter how much I'm beat up. In my case, those "others" have been all those people who are so wonderful, and have so much potential, but who happen to be totally wrapped up in their addictions. It's hard to deal with. It's not just divorcing a mean b**dard. It's wanting to save Jeckyll from Hyde. Impossible.

So I often need to hear the message that it's fine to accept the guilt and move on and let people make their own beds and lie in them--saving myself from resentment, which is worse. So the message shouldn't be confusing. It's meant to do the opposite and clarify the two choices.

I understand, catherine. I guess one might feel guilt if the adult children, at some point in their lives saw their parents as being different from the present. I never felt true love or support from my own parents, nor did I see hardly any good in their characters, so that's probably why I feel no guilt. But adult children who remember all the good in their parents prior to more recently could definitely feel guilt with some of their choices. I didn't mean to sound heartless.........just relating to my own experiences which can be, for sure, different from others.

[rodeosweetheart]

I understand, catherine. I guess one might feel guilt if the adult children, at some point in their lives saw their parents as being different from the present. I never felt true love or support from my own parents, nor did I see hardly any good in their characters, so that's probably why I feel no guilt. But adult children who remember all the good in their parents prior to more recently could definitely feel guilt with some of their choices. I didn't mean to sound heartless.........just relating to my own experiences which can be, for sure, different from others.

You don't sound at all heartless, Cathy, and thank you for your support.

Zoe, I really appreciated your point about meditation, and also that being styled as the black sheep, they will only say you deserved it. So true.

If you have not seen it, I really recommend the movie Glorious, 39 which really goes into this dynamic and expresses it better than anything else I have ever seen.

[iris lilies]

You don't sound at all heartless, Cathy, and thank you for your support.

Zoe, I really appreciated your point about meditation, and also that being styled as the black sheep, they will only say you deserved it. So true.

If you have not seen it, I really recommend the movie Glorious, 39 which really goes into this dynamic and expresses it better than anything else I have ever seen.

I think I remember that film, it's with Romana Garloai (?) (can't remember her exact name and I want to see if I can get this right without Google.) Oh yeah, she was oddly ostracized in that family, but I can't remember why. I just remember the horrific scene of all of the dead pets. It wasn't a good film but it was effective at showing the theme we are talking about here, you're right abaout that!

[rodeosweetheart]

I think I remember that film, it's with Romana Garloai (?) (can't remember her exact name and I want to see if I can get this right without Google.) Oh yeah, she was oddly ostracized in that family, but I can't remember why. I just remember the horrific scene of all of the dead pets. It wasn't a good film but it was effective at showing the theme we are talking about here, you're right abaout that!

It had to do with her being adopted (can't say more without being a spoiler.)

I looked it up and you know the dead pet scene was based on what actually happened in Britain at the time.

You might like "It Happened Here" if you have not seen it; kind of a similar vibe.