'Fall From Gratitude'

[Xmac]

This is an interview with Daniel Suelo.
It is a perfect video for this forum because it's about simplicity AND spirituality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDGZqaA9G9s&list=TLHBXR9UWTNUs

[catherine]

Awesome! Too tired to watch tonight but I'll watch first thing in the morning. I love Daniel Suelo, and I go to his website now and then to read his blog posts. Thanks for posting!

ETA a few hours later after I've had a chance to view:


The natural economy, the gift economy, is a pay-it-forward economy.



Gratitude is our true nature. It’s the way all the universe runs...We somehow don’t understand this in a credit/debt economy. How can you feel gratitude for something you think you earned? When you realize you didn’t earn anything—that everything is ia gift, you have a sense of gratitude.

So many truths in that video I just had to transcribe parts of it. I was so excited when he started talking about the disconnect between humans and nature because of the false values created by the credit/debit economy. I agree so wholeheartedly. We are natural beings first and foremost. We are not that different from the birds in the sky. And as Jesus said, "Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; but I tell you, not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these." But we have been programmed to believe that the best way is a credit/debt economy rather than a gift economy.

He also talks about why he is not worried about his health, and in doing so, he reminded me of the reason why I'm so uncomfortable with paying for health insurance, especially the exorbitant amounts we pay now. It doesn't make sense! Does any other animal have to buy health insurance? And are animals as sick as we are? We got along fine for thousands and thousands of years without it--insuring health is a concept that wasn't even around two hundred years ago. I like when Suelo was talking about the natural condition of health and dying, and I can't disagree with anything he said.

Thanks, Xmac, for the great start to my day.

[Molly]

Wow. Just wow.

[kib]

I think he's got some really amazing practice and insight going, I absolutely love contemplating what he's saying, but I have to admit, the first thing that flashed through my mind is that human society is not the same as bears and raspberry bushes. We don't have a 'natural cycle' that will simply sort itself out if everyone takes what they need with no thought as to what they'd give in return. We have an artificial construct that's in overshoot, and money is, even in a best case scenario, our shorthand for making sure people can both take and receive. I think it might be possible to develop that kind of society, a place beyond accounting, in my heart I think that might actually be what paradise is all about, but right now we're so far away from that ... :(

[catherine]

I think he's got some really amazing practice and insight going, I absolutely love contemplating what he's saying, but I have to admit, the first thing that flashed through my mind is that human society is not the same as bears and raspberry bushes. We don't have a 'natural cycle' that will simply sort itself out if everyone takes what they need with no thought as to what they'd give in return. We have an artificial construct that's in overshoot, and money is, even in a best case scenario, our shorthand for making sure people can both take and receive. I think it might be possible to develop that kind of society, a place beyond accounting, in my heart I think that might actually be what paradise is all about, but right now we're so far away from that ... :(

You are so right, kib, but I believe that we can at least point the needle in that direction. I'm glad that there are a couple of people like Suelo and Peace Pilgrim who show us what's possible, even if our culture is on a completely different trajectory. Mark Boyle (Moneyless Manifesto) does a great job in his book (online for free) pointing out some of the logistics of a moneyless society.

ETA: We might not be like bears now, but just take us back 4,000 years and we were a lot more like them. And there are still (thankfully) some indigenous cultures that live outside of money.

[Xmac]

....human society is not the same as bears and raspberry bushes. We don't have a 'natural cycle' that will simply sort itself out if everyone takes what they need with no thought as to what they'd give in return.........making sure people can both take and receive.

Hi kib, I'm wondering about your last three words because if it was unintentional, it wasn't a mistake. It gets to the core of the issue.

Taking is active and receiving is passive. If something is offered or is naturally available, however, like raspberries, in my way of thinking, it is receiving. Maybe one could say partaking? A no balance kind of balance?

I think there is a natural commerce in which there are no debits and credits, it is just edged out by fear/scarcity. As I see it, having no thought to what is given in return is the perfect way. When I give unconditionally...naturally, there is no thought or consideration involved and giving in return is not giving at all, just as receiving is not taking. Giving in return is repayment of a debt.

Marshal Rosenberg, the creator of Non-violent communication, talks about giving from selfullness instead of selflessness. Which expresses the difference between true giving (from inner 'well-th') and inner poverty (giving to get), respectively.

When concepts like obligation, debt, owe, repay, etc., are no longer given contracted attention (believed) our natural state of interdependence will resume. I guess we wanted to take a few thousand years off just to see what the credit/debt game would be like.

[kib]

Lol. I actually meant "give and receive". But yes, it does actually address what I was trying to say, that it's easier to be an active taker than a passive receiver, and that is, indeed, an issue for humans; most want to be active takers, and what's left to passively receive is not necessarily enough; it's certainly not "the right stuff" to be "a success" in the modern world. I think ... we may be on the brink of breaking down what constitutes that success ... which is an extremely uncomfortable prospect for the ego and lifestyle of those on the top.

A confession: the other day, I had a lot of money in hand. I saw a family begging on a street corner, and I folded up a very big bill and passed it to the man as I waited at the light. He nodded and stuck it in his pocket and I found myself very disappointed - and then disappointed and ashamed in myself - because he didn't unfold it to see what he'd been given. My "get" would just have been his reaction, but still, I don't think that was quite self-full of me.

[oldhat]

I watched the video today during my lunch hour. Suelo certainly is an interesting guy. I read the book about him, "The Man Who Quit Money," which I recommend; it's a quick and entertaining read.

I certainly envy his evidently mellow and accepting attitude toward life, although I can't entirely sympathize with his view of nature as totally benign: If you've ever seen a hawk ripping apart a still-living squirrel you'll know what I mean.

I'd never seen Suelo interviewed at length before. One thing I noticed is that while he may have quit money, judging by his smile, he hasn't quit dentistry. ;)

[Xmac]

...I can't entirely sympathize with his view of nature as totally benign: If you've ever seen a hawk ripping apart a still-living squirrel you'll know what I mean.


It's benign if you're a baby hawk waiting to be fed some squirrel or if you're a squirrel that's starving to death. For the squirrel about to be reborn as a bird, it just might be a literal upgrade. If the squirrel lets out a squeal, its young might be warned and saved from being made into food before their time.

As to the violence, if we assume that squirrels have no memory (I do), then they don't fear birds or being eaten. They naturally move away from claws and beaks as magnets repel other magnets. If there is no fear, which is largely what suffering is (if not all of it) then it is benign.

When it comes to the nerve endings, bones, etc. there is still some sensation, we imagine. But even here, there is no ego labeling it bad, painful etc.

I recently had my teeth cleaned and noticed that all my pain was in the future or in the past: anticipating and remembering. Without that projecting even a nanosecond ahead or behind, I question whether or not pain actually exists. Please don't hear me as saying that there's no such thing as pain. I'm merely suggesting that since there are so many other examples of life's experiences being deceptive or illusory, this one could also be. For now, it's not my experience...yet.

I do know a woman who accidentally stuck herself with a jagged piece of wood that was sharp and knife-like in its solidity and didn't scream in pain-horror until she looked at it. There are also many stories of people breaking brick with their bare hands, firewalkers etc. etc., which suggests to me that it is the story of the mind that is the sole creator of pain.