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pcooley
1-6-15, 10:26am
I haven't weighed in on the forums, beyond contributing to a couple of threads, in quite a while. Now that I reflect on it, I must be more at ease than I have been. I usually use the forums when I'm frustrated that my version of simple living is not running right. This might go into the "Personal Finance" forum, but I always think of everything as relating to "Family Matters and Relationships". The moderator is welcome to move it if he or she sees fit.

My main observation is that paying the mortgage is not some financial get out of jail free card. We paid off the house at the end of May - about a week after my 48th birthday. I had wanted to do it before, and I had been throwing everything in that direction. Consequently, we had used up our emergency fund covering little things that were not truly emergencies. I had expected a great wooo hoooo moment, but it was more just a feeling of emptiness. There was no longer the mortgage there to fight. And, we didn't have much money on hand. It was more like a break even, now I can go take a nap moment. It might have felt different if we had a 3 - 6 month emergency fund in place and a strong budget with categories building up for expenses. I not a big Dave Ramsey fan, but I think there is something about the baby steps. We just overleapt several of them.

Over the last several months, we have built some savings, but I did not turn around and start sacking away the cash we had been spending on the mortgage. We loosened up some, and maybe we needed to. June was our vacation - that ate up most of the excess cash that month. In July, we had to have our older dog put to sleep, and near the end of the month we adopted a puppy and enrolled her in puppy classes, (total pet expenses around $831). We saved a little in August, but in September and October, I was asked by a friend of mine to come out to lead a seminar during a canoe trip on the Mississippi River. I decided to ride my Vespa out, but with all the maintenance I needed to do, and with buying a better helmet and better protective gear, the Vespa ended up being a pricey way to get across the country. I should have just stuck with Greyhound. October, November, and December cover most of the birthdays in our family and Christmas. We didn't go overboard with any of them, (though my wife wanted an iPad for her birthday in November), but we weren't socking away money in savings. December was also the first property tax bill I had to pay, rather than having it come out of escrow, and I think either this month or next month, our homeowner's insurance is due.

The differences are slowly accumulating. Like I said, I am much more relaxed without really realizing it. I started a portfolio with Betterment to try to save a little money for our kids' college years. (I think it has a mix of 55% stocks and 45% bonds). That has only $500 in it right now, or did before the market fell yesterday, but that's better than nothing. We have $1000 in our Capital One 360 savings account, and $475 in our credit union savings account. It's not as much as I would like, but it shows an improvement over the way things went in the past.

All the same, I've been a little disappointed that paying off the mortgage was not some sort of entry into financial heaven. I thought it would be easier to put aside even most of what we had been pouring into the mortgage. I thought I would have the YNAB budget flowing smoothly, and those savings categories in the budget would be filling up. I had planned to up my "allowance" from $40 a month to $80, but now, it basically means instead of taking that $40 and distributing it to other budget categories, I take the $80 and distribute it to other budget categories.

Food continues to be the bugabear of our budget. On a typical non-Christmas, non-property tax bill month, it is about 45% of our monthly expenses. But I've been over that over and over on these boards, and I've spent years trying to get it down to $600 a month, (we're usually between $900 and $1000 a month), to no avail. I might need to drill down and look at specific items. (I noticed quinoa was the big expense this past week - $8.00 compared to about $1.75 for the same amount of rice, but my wife will not eat rice, so when we have a rice and something dinner, I make her quinoa). My wife is paleo, my daughter's vegetarian, my son loves burritos - it can be frustrating shopping and cooking for a family.

I think 2015 will be the year we slowly get things in order. I don't know what I really am looking for. I still have this poverty mentality where $5 seems like a lot of money. I often feel like I don't spend money on myself, (though that's not factually true, it's just the way I feel - see the Vespa road trip mentioned earlier), and when I sign my daughter up for after school circus classes, ($455), I cringe and complain. My daughter says, "forget it dad, it's too expensive." Then I feel like s**t. (This particular instance isn't the best example. The circus classes are usually $155 for six weeks, and that's a lot to me, but doable. I filled out the online registration for the teen performance troupe class, and THEN I looked at the cost. Since it is all spring and involves taking an adult class to supplement the troupe work, it's more. When I saw the price, I said something along the lines of "Holy S**t!" And my daughter said it was too much. We're going ahead with it, and they are letting me pay in a couple of installments).

Over the years, I feel like I trained myself out of many things that I enjoy. When I was younger, I loved going to the coffee shop and reading and writing while drinking a latte. I reached the point where thinking "I'll just have a cup of coffee at home" was the natural outcome of heading out the door. I thought, when I paid the house off, I would start to do the things I enjoyed a little bit more, (which was the idea behind giving myself an allowance), but I found that I just don't enjoy them in the same way. I've become a crotchety middle-aged man.

Today I am going to go to lunch with an old friend and discuss bicycling in the city. I heard word through the grapevine that the mayor wanted me to serve on the Bicycle and Trails Advisory Committee, and I have to go meet with him on Thursday. My friend is much more politically involved and will give me a good idea of whether being on the committee will allow me to make a positive contribution to my city, or if it will just be a frustrating immersion in local politics.

[Edited to add: curiously enough, with our retirement savings and the equity in the house, Google tells me that we are in the top 20% of wealth holders in the U.S. I certainly don't feel that way. I keep dragging around like a ramen-eating college student wondering when things are going to improve. If I were to make a guess based on how I feel, I would say we are in the bottom 10% of wealth holders. Maybe I have a bigger problem with depression than money management, though I never score very high on depression tests.]

rodeosweetheart
1-6-15, 11:35am
Very interesting reflections on paying off your mortgage and how it feels. I noticed the same thing when we paid off ours--it did not mean we did not still have very significant living expenses, and we probably loosened up a bit, too, without realizing it, and spent more loosely on things.

We also skipped step 3 on Dave Ramsey and are feeling that we made a mistake with that. We are probably going to try to correct that in the next 2 years, somehow.

I have heard other people say they felt they had made a mistake by skipping the steps or doing them out of order. It sounds like you have retirement and house paid off, and all you are missing is college and the 3-6 months living. Do your children have access to free tuition through your wife's job? If so, I'd say you have that covered and all you would need to do to catch up would be step 3.

If you are spending 45% of your monthly takehome on food, then you are spending 45% of your yearly income on food, which is something to consider. . . .

SteveinMN
1-6-15, 11:40am
Very timely post, Paul.

What strikes me after reading it is:

1) Congratulations on finishing off your mortgage! I know that took a lot of work. Becoming the financial warrior you are didn't happen overnight. Changing it won't happen overnight either. 'Course, it helps if you want to change that. Based on your note, I'm not sure you do just yet. It seems to me there's one last "battle": to put an appropriate emergency fund in place. And maybe finishing that unfinished business will help you relax enough to enjoy the money you have and your enviable status as mortgage-free.

2) Maybe paying off the mortgage seemed anti-climactic because nothing could live up to the promise. Years ago, I visited a friend of mine who was wintering near Orlando, Florida. He took us to Disneyworld. Vaunted, everybody-loves-it Disneyworld. Never been there in my 30+ years on Earth. I didn't like it. At all. I realized later it was because, in large part, nothing could live up to the hype of being "The Happiest Place On Earth". My day there wasn't all that. I've never been back. I don't want to try Disneyland, either, to see if it would be better. All that buildup and then ... meh.


But your post is particularly timely because our family seems to have moved out of a financial valley ourselves. Last month I started receiving a distribution from a pension I let my ex-employer buy out. A couple of months ago my wife got a raise (her first in years). In August we paid off our car loan. All told, we now have additional income roughly equal to another one of my wife's paychecks every month. :cool:

But I see it's sponsoring a different way of thinking about how we spend money. Part of me is breathing much easier now than I was last year, when we often had to visit our war chest for the big bills. Now I have a chance to replenish that. Part of me is finding it easier to spend money in somewhat-smaller amounts -- we can now afford to replace some things we soldiered along with (like mobile phones that have "issues") and the thermostat has been set a few more degrees higher when DW is home. Yet, yes, even cheap take-out food seems like a lot of $$ and I'll still complete Web surveys to win a $10 Amazon gift card. I, too, trained myself out of spending freely (or, really, with much joy at all). It served us well at the time -- and may continue to do so. But part of me wonders if it's a good thing now -- and, if I do want to change it at least a little, how long that might take.

Thanks for the post and the thought-jogger.

pcooley
1-6-15, 11:57am
My children can get free tuition at the college where we work. Neither of my children are excited about that prospect. My daughter has a sound plan to get everything paid for, (starting with applying to the United World College, hoping to go to the Norway campus, at the end of her Sophomore year of high school). I'm not sure what my son will do, and I'm not sure he has the academic stamina to go to the college we work for. We'll see how that ends up.

We pay 45% of our expenses on food. That's not quite 45% of our income. I don't track what we put aside for retirement, or any of the other paycheck deductions. (That includes health insurance, though I don't think our health insurance costs very much). I can't even tell you what percent of our income goes to retirement. That's something I hope to revisit this year and maybe increase. Last year we spent a little over 13,000 on groceries, and a little over 3000 eating out. With our full income being around $63,000, that's about 25% of our income going to food, and about 21% for groceries. "Groceries" is a loose term because it also includes the supplements my wife likes to buy. That's a very sore point in our relationship. Philosophically, I'm in favor of alternative medicine, but practically, I don't think the benefit equals the cost. Typically, she will go to Vitamin Cottage for milk and come home - not having bought milk, because it's too expensive there in this particular example - with $125 worth of the following kinds of things - Happy Camper, Vitamin C, Calms Forte, Melatonin, Ginseng, Allertonic, Calcium Magnesium Sulfate, Cold Calm, Oscillococcinum, Oil of Oregano, Cortisol Manager, True Calm, etc. Most of the time, to keep from feeling petty and argumentative, I lump it into the grocery budget. If I'm feeling petty and argumentative, I lump it into the Supplements budget.

I like to take one multivitamin occasionally and call it a day.

I have to say that not complaining about the supplements and openly saying "We're just not going to buy a $40 bottle of Cortisol Manager right now. That's ridiculous" is one of the things I have loosened up on. I'm also not complaining as much when she nudges to thermostat up. We are almost out of firewood, and my wife loves the woodstove. I'd rather ride out the winter with the heater, and she's pushing for another two cords. It's a typical too warm/too cold spouse grumble. (It not being all that forested in New Mexico, wood is about $250 a cord. Our gas bill is typically $40 a month in winter).

Teacher Terry
1-6-15, 12:28pm
I felt really good with no mortgage-we downsized to accomplish this. If I remember correctly you are a family of 4 so your grocery bill does sound high to me but meat has gone up a lot lately. We were frugal when raising our kids but I liked them to participate in the activities that they enjoyed, go to camp, etc so we always budgeted for these types of things. They will be over before you know it. WE had gotten really strict with our $ to pay things off & my hubby who is retired got a chance to go to CA for 6 months & they were paying him a fantastic wage. When he would come home on the weekends we started doing all the things we had quit doing like eating out, movies, wine walk, etc. What we realized is that we had been on too strict of a budget & needed to budget $300/month to have fun which we are now doing & it feels really good.

catherine
1-6-15, 12:46pm
I liked reading your honest post. I related to some of those feelings (although it will be years before my feelings about having a mortgage paid off will be tested).

As far as the food goes, it does seem a little high. I don't put supplements in my food budget--I put it in my healthcare budget--but I only buy a multivitamin, a D3 and a mineral supplement.

I especially like your musings on the poverty mentality, and can also relate to that at times. I think the feelings that come with that can be limiting, and if you feel you're cheating yourself out of a $5 cup of coffee while the rest of the family is getting everything on their lists (classes for the kids and expensive food for your wife), perhaps you're feeling that things aren't exactly fair, and there's a little resentment mixed in there. I've felt that myself.

The old New Thought writers talk about attitudes of abundance vs. scarcity. They teach that dwelling on lack is a self-fulfilling prophesy, and while you should be frugal and mindful of spending, penny-pinching is antithetical to attracting, and being able to live, true prosperity. A lot of people don't like the new-agey aspect of New Thought, but if you're open to it, I highly recommend Charles Fillmore's book, Prosperity. I think you can get it online for free. I have a copy on my Kindle and it was probably a buck or two but it's wonderful.

In any case, congratulations on the progress you are making with your finances! I'm jealous!

ETA: here's a link to Prosperity

http://newthoughtlibrary.com/fillmoreCharles/prosperity/prosperity_007.htm

pinkytoe
1-6-15, 1:23pm
I am one of those who thinks most supplements are a bunch of poo-poo. Like your wife, DH is forever looking for magic in a bottle but since it makes him feel better, I try not to mention it anymore; it is a sore point. However, I would separate it from groceries because it sounds like your actual food bill might be substantially lower if not for that. Once I showed DH how much he was spending on supps each month, he was quite surprised and has tapered off a bit. I think it is wonderful you have paid your mortgage off at a relatively young age. Perhaps you are just missing the thrill of the goal.

SteveinMN
1-7-15, 11:08am
penny-pinching is antithetical to attracting, and being able to live, true prosperity. A lot of people don't like the new-agey aspect of New Thought, but if you're open to it, I highly recommend Charles Fillmore's book, Prosperity. I think you can get it online for free.
I appreciate Mr. Fillmore's application of theory to real life. :) Not charging a fortune for a book on attracting money ... Actually, I do believe strongly in the Law of Attraction. I think I'l go check out his work. Thanks for the link.

awakenedsoul
1-7-15, 11:12am
Congratulations with paying off your mortgage. Mine is paid off, too. It helps me to think of how much more difficult my life would be if I were still renting. Where I live, rents have almost doubled in the last 15 years. So many people here have lost their homes, so they are all renting. Repairs are expensive, but I enjoy having things fixed. It feels good to maintain the home. I think if you are able to have some of your own "blow money" for coffees out, or something that you personally enjoy, that might make you feel better.

Life throws us curve balls, and we have to just keep plugging away. Budgeting is a lifelong discipline. My approach is to keep my expenses as low as possible. I agree that cutting your food bill and reducing what your wife spends on supplements would help. It sound like she's buying all that stuff to make herself feel better. I try to buy my supplements on sale at Costco. They're much cheaper there. I do really feel benefits from them, though. I also grow a lot of herbs, and make herbal teas at home. It's cheaper, and just as effective. I made some yogi tea for my boyfriend, and he was blown away by the effect. I buy the spices in bulk, though...

Rachel
1-7-15, 5:12pm
Congratulations, pcooley! This is a huge accomplishment.

I wonder if you are missing the presence of a big goal in your life. Do you have non-financial goals that are important to you? Goals related perhaps to learning or personal accomplishments? Just something to think about. Like, what you were saying about the Bikes and Trails...that sounds really cool.

You've given me a lot to think about.

Float On
1-7-15, 5:43pm
Congrats!!!
If I ever reach the point of paying off our mortgage (darn, we're doing a re-fi again) I will probably take a year and do whatever the heck I want with the extra money. Totally irresponsible, I know but we've never had extra money our entire marriage (25 years next month).

lhamo
1-8-15, 12:16pm
I think it is actually very common to feel a huge sense of let-down after achieving a major goal. Both DH and I experienced that after finishing our dissertations. YOu have been working so hard for so long toward that one singular thing that when it is finished you kind of look around and go "is that it -- what now?" and most likely flounder a bit while you are trying to recalibrate. I found Chris Gillebeau's end of year confession that 2014 has been a very rough year for him to echo this trend -- he spent so many years focused on his "visit every country" goal that after it was over it was hard to get his bearings again.

I think you should do the bike committee thing EVEN if it means getting sucked into some local politics. What a great way to learn more about your community and contribute to something you feel passionate about. Might also lead to some interesting career opportunities.

In our household, I am looking forward to the effect slight raises for both DH and I will have on our bottom line (plan to bump DH's retirement contribution back up a bit, and maybe increase the college fund contribution as well). And to "hitting the reset button" at work, as I have been discussing ad nauseum in my journal over on the MMM forums. More focus on fitness, diet, and overall health (including health of relationships). And maybe getting a new higher paying job. But going to put the more personal stuff at the front of the list as that has really suffered in the last 18 months with all my stress at work.

Good luck figuring out the balance, PC -- I'm confident you can do it.

catherine
1-8-15, 12:47pm
I appreciate Mr. Fillmore's application of theory to real life. :) Not charging a fortune for a book on attracting money ... Actually, I do believe strongly in the Law of Attraction. I think I'l go check out his work. Thanks for the link.

He had me with the chapter called "God will pay your debts." Whew--what a relief! ;)

ToomuchStuff
1-8-15, 5:03pm
I never did the Dave Ramsey thing: I only heard of him towards the EOL of our mutual friend. When I heard of him and found out he had a radio show that was on locally, I turned it on, after hearing a friends daughter talk about being invited to attend one.
My life, shall we say has been jumbled up baby steps. Step one was already complete when I first heard him. Step 2 and 6 were jumbled, because my home was my smallest debt (less then six months on the mortgage). Mine was non traditional (homeowner financed) and I always paid the property taxes, so no surprise there. (as compared to some of the people I know who seem shocked at the end of the year, after paying the home off) My only other debt was my CC and I pay that off monthly (personal preference, IMHO a CC is safer then a DC for online purchasing, which I do for work).
Step four, well one book I read years back said 20% so that was what I have been doing for a while (started late, due to long ago, nearly losing everything in a civil suit). So then I started step three. I do say to both you and Float on, that it ISN'T EXTRA MONEY, it is still just your income and expenses. If you look at it differently, then it all too easily becomes blow money. (same thing with raises, etc)
I put my mortgage money aside and after a bit, started working some overtime and built the six month expense emergency fund. (if I pared down, maybe almost a year)
I did feel better about having the house paid for, but the stress level only decreased for me, after having the emergency fund. My next goal was completed (put aside a new roof, money) after that. (need to get that done this year)
On the subject of the budget, seems to me you are making an emotional decission about a financial truth, when you choose your category. Unless your both honest with yourselfs (and see how the truth can cause you to reevalute what you value), your just closing the door on something, so it can fester, IMHO.

Can't really help with the food budgets with so much going up, and in your case, so many different directions. All of our choices cost us, no matter who we are or what we do. I can think of one I did at six, that still affects me to this day, and how buying this house, kept me out of college and brought about part of the circumstances that created the events that led me to a civil suit.
On the poverty feeling, when I started tracking to see where my money was actually going, and ever since, $1 feels like a lot of money to me. I know money costs me time (and work, etc) and have to judge accordingly (part of growing up). Some of the things I valued before (your cup of coffee in your example), might have been due to social things (seeing friends/people your age, etc), which change as we age (I've got friends who are grandparents now, while some still have small kids), while others, we just grow out/tire of. For me, it was gaming. (friends moved away, families, etc) I recently bought a gaming pc, after a relative pushed for several of use to game online. I don't enjoy it now.
With your google search, it is a stark reality to see what math shows, verses what we see via TV/Movies, etc. or what people make an appearence to show (you see their stuff, but not their financial situation). That doesn't help with feelings that society trys to play upon.

I wish I understood the vacation thing, but the last time I traveled for one, I was still a kid. The last time I tried to take one, was to take off to paint the house and half our crew came back from their Christmas party (not at xmas time) on crutches. (poof went my vacation) Life tends to happen when I plan on things like that. Sometimes we just feel like life is s___ and sometimes, that is right. Going to have to learn to enjoy the small stuff, and take moments where you can.

ToomuchStuff
1-8-15, 5:06pm
He had me with the chapter called "God will pay your debts." Whew--what a relief! ;)

Does it provide the mailing address?:laff:

Florence
1-19-15, 7:44pm
Paul, congratulations! That is quite an accomplishment!! We paid ours off several years ago and I am so happy not to have to make that payment! Of course, there is always property taxes, insurance, homeowners association fees, and never ending maintenance so it isn't all gravy!