View Full Version : More Reason For Excitement In Bernieland
Sounds like Biden is ramping up to run. He's a dead fish in my world, but it is remotely possible that he would have support from a few old line Dems that just couldn't stomach a Hilary campaign. If they wouldn't support Hil then you gotta believe they would never consider backing our favorite socialist. So a small chunk of Hil's hoped for establishment support swings to Joe letting some more steam out of her convention plans and Bernie's supporters get a little more jazzed about their chances. Just idle fantasy at this point, but kinda fun to ponder.
I understand the HRC people have been working hard to lock down as many superdelegates as they can as one way of discouraging Joe from jumping in. The Sandernistas may have helped a possible Biden campaign by pushing Clinton to the left and making him look like the more mainstream candidate.
I think Biden is being pushed into the primary solely to give the appearance of a an actual race. The media blackout on Sanders can't continue indefinitely unless someone else is running.
The media blackout on Sanders can't continue indefinitely unless someone else is running.
"Media blackout"? He seems pretty unavoidable to me.
"Media blackout"? He seems pretty unavoidable to me.
There is definitely a media blackout on Bernie. He's unavoidable, but he's a sidebar. Even when he commands hundreds of thousands at rallies. If Hillary got those numbers, don't you think it would be everywhere?
Hillary and Trump definitely rule the airwaves but I still see multiple instances of Bernie love daily in the media.
I think Bernie's generating a lot of buzz but can't imagine the DNC helping an out-and-proud Socialist properly define their party. They operate better in stealth mode.
There is definitely a media blackout on Bernie. He's unavoidable, but he's a sidebar. Even when he commands hundreds of thousands at rallies. If Hillary got those numbers, don't you think it would be everywhere?
If there's a blackout, it seems pretty threadbare in light of all the coverage he's getting. I do think the chattering classes are reluctant to anoint him as a serious contender at this point. They wouldn't want to look foolish if he fails to survive the first Super Tuesday. He is, as Alan points out, running as an unashamed socialist in what is basically a center-right country.
freshstart
9-8-15, 11:08am
it's his birthday! Although, he really should stop having them, voters are saying he's too old already
Gingerella72
9-8-15, 11:39am
If there's a blackout, it seems pretty threadbare in light of all the coverage he's getting. I do think the chattering classes are reluctant to anoint him as a serious contender at this point. They wouldn't want to look foolish if he fails to survive the first Super Tuesday. He is, as Alan points out, running as an unashamed socialist in what is basically a center-right country.
Over the weekend on some news segment on NPR, a reporter said that Hilary was basically "running against herself" and didn't mention one other Dem candidate. They seemed to be implying that she had no real competition for the Dem primary. Now, as a Dem, the social media sites I frequent are full of Bernie stories, so it was quite shocking to me to hear first hand of the "media blackout" I'd read about. It left me sputtering for sure.
I read in the New York Times yesterday that Hillary's strategists are working on a plan for her to be more spontaneous.
I read in the New York Times yesterday that Hillary's strategists are working on a plan for her to be more spontaneous.
Haha.. that's funny!
Haha.. that's funny!
No seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/08/us/politics/hillary-clinton-to-show-more-humor-and-heart-aides-say.html?ref=politics&_r=0
I am of the belief that there is a pretty good filter on what Sanders sound bites get on the airwaves. Most of my information sources are less connected to big media so I have been a little surprised to watch the network stories the past week or so. Its not that Sanders doesn't get mentioned, its that he gets air time for what he says about other candidates or because its his birthday or any number of things with no substance whatsoever. I haven't heard much of anything on the big three plus one that has given him opportunity to argue his positions. Not so with HRC, Trump or a few other high profile candidates. I'm not an insider by any means, but one reason that may be happening seems obvious enough...
I am of the belief that there is a pretty good filter on what Sanders sound bites get on the airwaves. Most of my information sources are less connected to big media so I have been a little surprised to watch the network stories the past week or so. Its not that Sanders doesn't get mentioned, its that he gets air time for what he says about other candidates or because its his birthday or any number of things with no substance whatsoever. I haven't heard much of anything on the big three plus one that has given him opportunity to argue his positions. Not so with HRC, Trump or a few other high profile candidates. I'm not an insider by any means, but one reason that may be happening seems obvious enough...
I'm not sure we're hearing much of anything substantive from any candidate at this point. We hear from Mr. Trump that his time at a pricey military school is the same thing as having served (in much the same way that Space Camp qualifies you to be an astronaut). We hear from Mrs. Clinton that her private email server had been approved by the State Department (So you'll need to take it up with the Secretary of State, I suppose).
I'm sure most of the media inclines toward the establishment Democratic Party view of the world that Mr. Obama saved us all from a Greater Depression through his masterful policies. It also seems pretty clear that that the Obama legacy-building campaign conflicts somewhat with Mr. Sander' more dystopian view of the State of the nation. That may be why outlets like the New York Times would rather devote column inches to issues like Marco Rubio's parking tickets. But by and large, I'm not seeing a media blackout directed by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy against BS.
No seriously.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/08/us/politics/hillary-clinton-to-show-more-humor-and-heart-aides-say.html?ref=politics&_r=0
Yes, it's seriously funny! A top notch standup comic couldn't have done better.
But by and large, I'm not seeing a media blackout directed by the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy against BS.
Nah, it could be an inside job. There are a lot of Hillary devotees in the media.
TVRodriguez
9-10-15, 5:23pm
A fairly recent post on Sanders vs. Clinton and why the Five Thirty Eight bloggers don't think Sanders has a great chance.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire/
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-15, 5:38pm
Not only are African-Americans the majority of Democratic voters in the South Carolina primary (a crucial early contest), they make up somewhere between 19 percent and 24 percent of Democrats nationwide.
Not a very persuasive analysis, this nationwide stuff really doesn't matter, it is all completely irrelevant to the price of tea in China.
If the states with heavy minority populations are all voting next June of 2016 or something they don't' matter (ask me why I don't much care about the election, because I DON"T CARE, and because I vote then and so my vote doesn't matter). So since they are talking national numbers not early states other than South Carolina, the person just sounds they have a grudge against Sanders.
A fairly recent post on Sanders vs. Clinton and why the Five Thirty Eight bloggers don't think Sanders has a great chance.
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire/
That argument sounds logical to me. People talk about the zombie hordes he attracts as a sign of his strength, but that's been occurring in liberal enclaves that would cheer just as loudly for Che Guevara. It will be interesting to see how he performs in the country at large,
Ultralight
9-11-15, 9:27am
That argument sounds logical to me. People talk about the zombie hordes he attracts as a sign of his strength, but that's been occurring in liberal enclaves that would cheer just as loudly for Che Guevara. It will be interesting to see how he performs in the country at large,
I love me some Che Guevara!
"Media blackout"? He seems pretty unavoidable to me.
Republican candidates running single digit numbers in the polls are getting more press. That a socialist is polling the numbers he is (leading in some states) in this country you would think would qualify for a bit of discussion as to why - maybe I'm wrong but I would call it historic.
Ultralight
9-11-15, 10:23am
Bernie almost... almost makes me want to register to vote and vote for him.
Republican candidates running single digit numbers in the polls are getting more press. That a socialist is polling the numbers he is (leading in some states) in this country you would think would qualify for a bit of discussion as to why - maybe I'm wrong but I would call it historic.
I'm seeing plenty of discussion of the "significance of Trump and Sanders campaigns", usually along the lines of voters being dissatisfied with the establishment and looking for something different.
Ultralight
9-11-15, 11:04am
Most people who talk a good game about being dissatisfied with the establishment end up voting for the establishment in the end.
I love me some Che Guevara!You know that he was Castro's chief executioner don't you? Responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cubans and the forced imprisonment of thousands more.
On the plus side, he did look cool in that funky beret.
Ultralight
9-11-15, 11:43am
You know that he was Castro's chief executioner don't you? Responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cubans and the forced imprisonment of thousands more.
On the plus side, he did look cool in that funky beret.
It is all about that funky beret! ;)
Most people who talk a good game about being dissatisfied with the establishment end up voting for the establishment in the end.
“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
Ultralight
9-11-15, 12:19pm
“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
LOL! Classic!
Most people who talk a good game about being dissatisfied with the establishment end up voting for the establishment in the end.
Your principled irrelevance shames my participation in the sordid real world.
I see Bernie got a polite hearing at Liberty University. I wonder if Ted Cruz could speak at, say Oberlin without being shouted down or sending students scurrying to safe zones until the danger passed.
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" :devil:
Reminiscent of David Ickes' theories and Dick Cheney. Perfect.
I imagine sociopaths rise to high levels in all governments. Our hands are hardly scrupulously clean.
rosarugosa
9-15-15, 8:53pm
Creaker: Love your quotes. Too bad Doug Adams isn't alive and well and running for something, somewhere.
I imagine sociopaths rise to high levels in all governments. Our hands are hardly scrupulously clean.
Perhaps, but when was the last time you saw a Heinrich Himmler or Lavrenti Beria t-shirt? Are we so mired in vapid moral relativism that we can't recognize tastelessness when we see it?
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:13am
Perhaps, but when was the last time you saw a Heinrich Himmler or Lavrenti Beria t-shirt? Are we so mired in vapid moral relativism that we can't recognize tastelessness when we see it?
LDAHL:
Who in US governmental history was both lauded and a sociopath? Anyone? I dare you, my simple living friend, to answer that question thoughtfully and honestly.
rodeosweetheart
9-16-15, 9:21am
Just for the record, are we now allowed to engage in name calling? Just wish to clarify here, so as to understand the rules of the road, which may have changed, for all I know.
LDAHL:
Who in US governmental history was both lauded and a sociopath? Anyone? I dare you, my jingoistic friend, to answer that question thoughtfully and honestly.
I bet there's a Bush/Cheney T-shirt out there somewhere...:moon:
LDAHL:
Who in US governmental history was both lauded and a sociopath? Anyone? I dare you, my jingoistic friend, to answer that question thoughtfully and honestly.
Many. But that in no way detracts from the incandescent fatuousness of the Che t-shirt.
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:24am
Just for the record, are we now allowed to engage in name calling? Just wish to clarify here, so as to understand the rules of the road, which may have changed, for all I know.
Is "jingoistic friend" considered name calling? If it is I will delete it and issue a sincere apology to LDAHL.
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:24am
I bet there's a Bush/Cheney T-shirt out there somewhere...:moon:
Amen sistah!
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:26am
Many. But that in no way detracts from the incandescent fatuousness of the Che t-shirt.
Which US or world leaders are T-shirt icon worthy?
Many. But that in no way detracts from the incandescent fatuousness of the Che t-shirt.
I have to admit a fondness for the phrase "incandescent fatuousness."
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:31am
I have to admit a fondness for the phrase "incandescent fatuousness."
Yes! Gotta hand it to LDAHL. Stealing that one. ;)
Ultralight
9-16-15, 9:32am
Many.
Hearing this, I retract "jingoistic."
rodeosweetheart
9-16-15, 9:33am
Is "jingoistic friend" considered name calling? If it is I will delete it and issue a sincere apology to LDAHL.
I think it is insulting, but then, I'm a Quaker. . .
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/76/02/84/760284eda2569a1de1ce85be68681078.jpg (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRxqFQoTCPzZjfXi-8cCFRd_kgod6PMJRg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinterest.com%2Fpin%2F273735 10210908993%2F&psig=AFQjCNFBEVQG93kYq7AoJGRG3TWCKslvCQ&ust=1442499916889025)
Ultralight
9-16-15, 10:42am
Alan:
I ain't gonna lie! That pie chart is hilarious! :laff:
Is "jingoistic friend" considered name calling? If it is I will delete it and issue a sincere apology to LDAHL.
I take no insult at either "jingoistic" or "friend". I am happy to own a certain unapologetic American nationalism which might be misinterpreted by some political sensibilities as jingoism (or near enough). Nor can I imagine being offended by being referred to as "friend". This country will only fail when too many of us take political disagreement personally.
I have close friends who had family members tortured and killed by Che and his associates.
So I like Che too, like this:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/che-bolivia-19.jpg
Seeing cute little Che avatars on this site is about as attractive as seeing Hitler avatars or White Power avatars.
Good day.
I have close friends who had family members tortured and killed by Che and his associates.
So I like Che too, like this:
http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/che/che-bolivia-19.jpg
Seeing cute little Che avatars on this site is about as attractive as seeing Hitler avatars or White Power avatars.
Good day.
Since we're on the subject of avatars, I've often wondered why you chose Karl Marx. Or is that some other bushy-bearded guy?
Ultralight
9-17-15, 4:58pm
Morbid.
Since we're on the subject of avatars, I've often wondered why you chose Karl Marx. Or is that some other bushy-bearded guy?
He wrote a couple of very insightful things. And at the time I selected that avatar, I looked just like that painting.
He wrote a couple of very insightful things. And at the time I selected that avatar, I looked just like that painting.
I think Che would have agreed with him when he said, "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror".
rodeosweetheart
9-17-15, 5:33pm
I think Che would have agreed with him when he said, "We have no compassion and we ask no compassion from you. When our turn comes, we shall not make excuses for the terror".
Here is a quote form wikiquotes:
The situation was uncomfortable for the people and for [Eutimio], so I ended the problem giving him a shot with a .32 pistol in the right side of the brain, with exit orifice in the right temporal [lobe]. He gasped for a little while and was dead. Upon proceeding to remove his belongings I couldn't get off the watch tied by a chain to his belt, and then he told me in a steady voice farther away than fear: "Yank it off, boy, what does it matter." I did so and his possessions were now mine.
Diary entry from Sierra Maestra on the execution of Eutimio Guerra as an anti-revolutionary spy (January 1957), quoted in Che Guevara : A Revolutionary Life (1997) by Jon Lee Anderson
Apparently he did his own dirty work, instead of outsourcing it.
Apparently he did his own dirty work, instead of outsourcing it.
And he did a lot of it. But, but, but, that's no reason not to idolize him....is it?
Ultralight
9-17-15, 6:27pm
Would these count as quotes by genocidal maniacs?
“If ever we are constrained to lift the hatchet against any tribe, we will never lay it down till that tribe is exterminated, or driven beyond the Mississippi… in war, they will kill some of us; we shall destroy them all.” -- Thomas Jefferson
“Indians and wolves are both beasts of prey, tho’ they differ in shape.” -- George Washington
I don’t go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of ten are, and I shouldn’t like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth.” -- Theodore Roosevelt
“My original convictions upon this subject have been confirmed by the course of events for several years, and experience is every day adding to their strength. That those tribes cannot exist surrounded by our settlements and in continual contact with our citizens is certain. They have neither the intelligence, the industry, the moral habits, nor the desire of improvement which are essential to any favorable change in their condition. Established in the midst of another and a superior race, and without appreciating the causes of their inferiority or seeking to control them, they must necessarily yield to the force of circumstances and ere long disappear.” -- Andrew Jackson
“If it be the design of Providence to extirpate these Savages in order to make room for cultivators of the Earth, it seems not improbable that rum may be the appointed means.” -- Ben Franklin
I was thinking about this country's genocide of indigenous peoples, and it seems many of those committing it were heroes at the time. Plus ça change...
iris lilies
9-17-15, 8:05pm
And he did a lot of it. But, but, but, that's no reason not to idolize him....is it?
Alan sometimes shit just has to go down. It's for the good of all.
and I mean that both sincerely, and ironically.
Ben Franklin - the moral equivalent of Che Guevera. Amazing.
I almost can't wait for the zombies...
rodeosweetheart
9-18-15, 11:01am
I think the problem lies in the confusion of rhetoric with action.
One would hope we can learn from the past.
I did not realize until recently that it is because of Franklin that we speak of electricity in terms of positive and negative. . .
I guess one question is for those who promote Guevara as a revolutionary icon, what lasting value do they find in his words?
His deeds-- that is another issue, I suppose, and one that we ignore at our peril.
Ultralight
9-18-15, 11:06am
I think the problem lies in the confusion of rhetoric with action.
One would hope we can learn from the past.
I did not realize until recently that it is because of Franklin that we speak of electricity in terms of positive and negative. . .
I guess one question is for those who promote Guevara as a revolutionary icon, what lasting value do they find in his words?
His deeds-- that is another issue, I suppose, and one that we ignore at our peril.
“At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
― Che Guevara
“The first duty of a revolutionary is to be educated.”
― Che Guevara
“And then many things became very clear... we learned perfectly that the life of a single human being is worth millions of times more than all the property of the richest man on earth.”
― Che Guevara
“The walls of the educational system must come down. Education should not be a privilege, so the children of those who have money can study.”
― Che Guevara
“If you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine.”
― Che Guevara
rodeosweetheart
9-18-15, 11:24am
“At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.”
― Che Guevara
“And then many things became very clear... we learned perfectly that the life of a single human being is worth millions of times more than all the property of the richest man on earth.”
― Che Guevara
Really striking, the disparity between these quotations and the account of the murder--well, execution, if you prefer. I find the second to be particularly ironic, as he rifled the body of the dying man to gain his property.
Oh well. My friend's pregnant mother was struck in the belly with a rifle by Castro's henchmen.
A terrible time, a terrible place.
Ultralight
9-18-15, 11:27am
Was it not Ronnie Reagan who said: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?"
Ultralight
9-18-15, 11:33am
Interesting thing about Cuba. When I was in grad school back in 2009 a professor of mine went to Cuba for a while to study and work on a documentary. So he lived there and worked with Cubans in depth. Here is what he said upon his return:
"I am a democrat, a lefty you might say. But going to Cuba really turned me into an American patriot in many ways. Cubans have pretty good healthcare, access to the arts, they have good public education, the have beautiful beaches and nature. Nobody seems to work very hard or that much. There is a lot of dancing, socializing, and making love. But Cubans are not free!"
I asked him this, after he said the above to the class:
"Wait... so Cubans have healthcare, art, education, and beaches; they don't work hard or much, and they go out dancing and make love all the time? What more do you want?!" :cool:
rodeosweetheart
9-18-15, 11:47am
I am reminded of Einstein's comment, “Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them."
I'll cling to that and pray for peace. What others choose to believe and promulgate is their business. It grieves me to hear murder spoken about so irreverently, but I can only cling to the hope that we will, through God's mercy, become more peaceful people and we will continue to value our freedom.
That's all I can do, Ultralite.
Ultralight
9-18-15, 11:53am
I am reminded of Einstein's comment, “Problems cannot be solved with the same mind set that created them."
I'll cling to that and pray for peace. What others choose to believe and promulgate is their business. It grieves me to hear murder spoken about so irreverently, but I can only cling to the hope that we will, through God's mercy, become more peaceful people and we will continue to value our freedom.
That's all I can do, Ultralite.
I understand. I do what I can too, through lifestyle activism. As I am not religious, I am lost in a sea of unfortunate reality. But I try to make sense of things as best I can and do the right thing by people, animals, and the environment.
Was it not Ronnie Reagan who said: "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter?"
Quite the opposite. That oft-repeated lie comes from a speech he made in 1986:
"Effective antiterrorist action has also been thwarted by the claim that—as the quip goes—"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." That's a catchy phrase, but also misleading. Freedom fighters do not need to terrorize a population into submission. Freedom fighters target the military forces and the organized instruments of repression keeping dictatorial regimes in power. Freedom fighters struggle to liberate their citizens from oppression and to establish a form of government that reflects the will of the people. Now, this is not to say that those who are fighting for freedom are perfect or that we should ignore problems arising from passion and conflict. Nevertheless, one has to be blind, ignorant, or simply unwilling to see the truth if he or she is unable to distinguish between those I just described and terrorists."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37376
Interesting thing about Cuba. When I was in grad school back in 2009 a professor of mine went to Cuba for a while to study and work on a documentary. So he lived there and worked with Cubans in depth. Here is what he said upon his return:
"I am a democrat, a lefty you might say. But going to Cuba really turned me into an American patriot in many ways. Cubans have pretty good healthcare, access to the arts, they have good public education, the have beautiful beaches and nature. Nobody seems to work very hard or that much. There is a lot of dancing, socializing, and making love. But Cubans are not free!"
I asked him this, after he said the above to the class:
"Wait... so Cubans have healthcare, art, education, and beaches; they don't work hard or much, and they go out dancing and make love all the time? What more do you want?!" :cool:
What more do you want? I think your professor got it if you didn't. And all those people who died trying to escape Mr. Castro's paradise over the years got it if you didn't. Or maybe they were just bad dancers.
Quite the opposite. That oft-repeated lie comes from a speech he made in 1986:
"Effective antiterrorist action has also been thwarted by the claim that—as the quip goes—"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." That's a catchy phrase, but also misleading. Freedom fighters do not need to terrorize a population into submission. Freedom fighters target the military forces and the organized instruments of repression keeping dictatorial regimes in power. Freedom fighters struggle to liberate their citizens from oppression and to establish a form of government that reflects the will of the people. Now, this is not to say that those who are fighting for freedom are perfect or that we should ignore problems arising from passion and conflict. Nevertheless, one has to be blind, ignorant, or simply unwilling to see the truth if he or she is unable to distinguish between those I just described and terrorists."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=37376
Considering how long we (the USA) propped up a dictatorial regime in Iran for decades up to 1979 and then have fought against, on a global scale through sanctions and such, the subsequent regime(s) would it be safe to say that Iranians who oppose US efforts to control that country are freedom fighters? Or are they still terrorists simply because they are opposed to a government you happen to support?
Interesting thing about Cuba. When I was in grad school back in 2009 a professor of mine went to Cuba for a while to study and work on a documentary. So he lived there and worked with Cubans in depth. Here is what he said upon his return:
"I am a democrat, a lefty you might say. But going to Cuba really turned me into an American patriot in many ways. Cubans have pretty good healthcare, access to the arts, they have good public education, the have beautiful beaches and nature. Nobody seems to work very hard or that much. There is a lot of dancing, socializing, and making love. But Cubans are not free!"
I asked him this, after he said the above to the class:
"Wait... so Cubans have healthcare, art, education, and beaches; they don't work hard or much, and they go out dancing and make love all the time? What more do you want?!" :cool:
I suppose it depends on one's definition of freedom. Are we really free if we have to work long hours at a job we might hate so that we can have healthcare and be able to provide our kids an education? And are we really free if the government collects all of our communications and stores them away so that they can perhaps one day use them against us? Are we really free if the government can condemn our land, calling it blighted, and force us, against our will, to sell it to a large corporation so that they can make money with it?
Sure, we may have some different freedoms than Cubans do, but we certainly don't have all encompassing freedom, and if one only wants the freedom to have a simple life with one's family, maybe Cuban freedom is perfectly fine for them. Like most things I don't think there's a one size fits all definition of freedom.
ApatheticNoMore
9-20-15, 12:19pm
I doubt much of even western culture would consider most Americans free. Would the ancient Greeks? Of course that society depended on slavery, but those they considered the free citizens were actually such and nothing like today's wage slaves. I don't think anyone slaving a job they have little say over for someone else is really free. But what about political freedom and democracy, ability for the people to speak and be heard, freedom from political oppression? Well, I don't think the U.S. is a straight totalitarian society, especially if you are non-political you will usually be left alone (although this is less true for minorities and other marginalized people). But I also don't think the U.S. allows all that much political freedom either.
I suppose I could think of another definition of freedom besides the 2 proposed which were 1) control over one's ACTUAL daily life (impeded by a wage slave system beyond our control) and 2) political freedom and that would be 3) the freedom to avoid being imprisoned lightly! The U.S. has this in theory to some degree (but really with the NDAA does it even?), but also much less so in practice (for many reasons such as most criminal justice proceedings never going to trial - chances are you may never see that "jury of your peers").
Part of the freedom of democracy that's an oxymoron is that in many ways you're only free to do what the majority has decided is appropriate. You are not free to walk around naked, regardless of the fact that it's doing no one else any harm. You are not free to declare your own property as a sovereign state where you will do whatever you please. To an extent these various rules - at least some of them - are necessary for a functional society, but "free" is a very relative term here.
My preference is freedom, but with some safety nets. I think if we live in a society with other people, then we need to bear some responsibility for the greater good rather than the extreme rugged individualism that we currently seem to encourage in the guise of freedom. It's absolutely crazy that someone who worked hard all their life, enslaved or otherwise, can have the audacity to get sick and lose everything they have in an instant. Yes, some people would say, "That's life," but is it really the type of society in which we want to exist when we have the choice to do better for ourselves and each other? Not me. There are always going to be some people who will take advantage of any system we have in place, but I'd still rather err on the side of compassion and kindness.
Williamsmith
9-21-15, 6:00am
In 2013 the incarceration rate of the United States was 716 per 100,000. According to Wikipedia. Another way to look at it. We are 4.4 percent of the worlds population and house 22 percent of worlds prisoners. Take it from a man who's job was to take people's freedom away from them......we know nothing about freedom. We are pretty good at snuffing it out.
Something to keep in mind about Cuba that it is better compared to its peers rather than the US. Sure if you compare it to the US it won't look so good. But how about compared to its Caribbean neighbors like the Dominican Republic or Jamaica? Or Mexico, or Central America?
Castro basically took the land from the rich, including foreigners, and gave it to the peasants. That may not be the best way to go about things, but a lot of governments have done far worse things.
There are a lot of interesting concepts of freedom here, mostly expressed in negative terms: We're not truly free because we get inadequate public benefits, because we work for a paycheck, because we impose longer prison terms on our convicts, because we base decisions on majority rule. We are, at very best, only slightly better off than a totalitarian state ruled by the same pair of brothers since 1959 and are therefore in no position to criticize.
My perhaps optimistic contention is that the American project, with its hard-wired safeguards against majority or minority tyranny and ability to reconfigure itself, is however imperfectly one of the better human political arrangements. That's why it has lasted as long as it has. There will be no perfect system until we all become angels or automatons, but I personally take some unfashionable pride in what we've got.
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