A Cluttered Life: Middle-Class Abundance (revisiting this classic!)

[Ultralight]

I thought that since it is the Xmas shopping season it might be worthwhile to revisit this series of short-form documentaries.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2gElfGxJBw

[Tenngal]

after seeing all the sales pitches and brags about black Friday shopping, I am sitting here thinking about all the money I SAVED by staying at home..........

[Ultralight]

after seeing all the sales pitches and brags about black Friday shopping, I am sitting here thinking about all the money I SAVED by staying at home..........

Yeah, I saw a couple videos of the Black Friday chaos. Shameful...

[Chicken lady]

What is interesting to me is, these are normal, representative homes? Do you guys think so? Because the thing about struggling with hoarding is that, like struggling with anorexia, you have trouble with the ability to know what "normal" is. Almost all of those pictures looked like my "crisis" areas - the battles I'm still fighting.

I don't have many friends, and I don't go into many other homes.

We went to a store in the mall yesterday and bought ds a really nice set of knives for his Christmas present (we have one really nice set of knives we've used for 25 years and want each of our kids to have one as well) It was on sale 40% off. But! If we were willing to pay for it and then come back and get it on Wednesday, we could save another $45, making it only about a third of the list price. I pass the mall going to and from work on Wednesday, so it was a no-brainer to me. Easy $45.

Dh couldn't understand why they would do that. I tried to explain to him that it's to get you back in the store. When you come back, instead of having just spent a lot of money, you are thinking about how clever you are to have saved extra money. You have to walk through the store and you might see something desirable. Why not treat yourself? You deserve it!

I did ths in front of the sales lady. She laughed. Dh said "they haven't met you."

What I am thinking is: "oh god, I am in the mall. I need to get out of here as quickly as possible. Also remember where I came in so I can find my car. If I walk fast enough does this count as exercise? Oh! What a cute baby! Did I remember to close the supply cupboard at school?....."

[Ultralight]

I do think that these are accurate representation of "normal" families.

When I cycled through my middle class suburban enclave I saw people's garage doors open. They are almost all full to the brim, with cars parked outside. This is true of my sis and BIL's place, where I currently rent a room. This is true of my GF's house -- the garage is packed, all the closets are packed. When I visit other people, they are mostly all this way.

[Chicken lady]

So, this is my porch - which is also my dining room, starting at the "front door" and spiraling into the center:
Doormat,
homemade woodbox - contains split firewood, with poker, shovel, headlamp, and fireplace gloves hanging on it.
dustpan and brush
ashbucket with scoop
basket of old phone books for starting fires
hanging wind chime,
misplaced broom
dead plant,
spinning wheel,
basket of blacksmith's puzzles and bunny grooming supplies
second spinning wheel
wind chime
2 framed pictures on wall
antique bar stocked with booze, mixers and glassware
misplaced tablecloth and charger on bar
small set of weights that belong in the basement
big pillow
hanging glass ball with dead plant,
hanging thumb piano gourd
2nd doormat leading into rest of house
metal chair
woodstove
metal chair
moving to center - dining table with 7 wooden chairs around it.

This room is the most sparse in my house, but it is overly full. Also, I should not be permitted to have houseplants.

[Teacher Terry]

Neither mine or my friends houses look like the houses they show. Wow the amount of stuff is unbelievable. Garages packed-sometimes but not inside the house. Wow!

[Ultralight]

So, this is my porch - which is also my dining room, starting at the "front door" and spiraling into the center:
Doormat,
homemade woodbox - contains split firewood, with poker, shovel, headlamp, and fireplace gloves hanging on it.
dustpan and brush
ashbucket with scoop
basket of old phone books for starting fires
hanging wind chime,
misplaced broom
dead plant,
spinning wheel,
basket of blacksmith's puzzles and bunny grooming supplies
second spinning wheel
wind chime
2 framed pictures on wall
antique bar stocked with booze, mixers and glassware
misplaced tablecloth and charger on bar
small set of weights that belong in the basement
big pillow
hanging glass ball with dead plant,
hanging thumb piano gourd
2nd doormat leading into rest of house
metal chair
woodstove
metal chair
moving to center - dining table with 7 wooden chairs around it.

This room is the most sparse in my house, but it is overly full. Also, I should not be permitted to have houseplants.

I am having a hard to visualizing it.

[Ultralight]

Neither mine or my friends houses look like the houses they show.

Really? You must have self-selected friends who know when enough is enough.

When you watch all the segments of this video series (I think there are three total) you get the idea of just how normalized this is.


But when I look at these videos I get anxiety...

[rodeosweetheart]

[QUOTE=UltraliteAngler;223193]Really? You must have self-selected friends who know when enough is enough.

When you watch all the segments of this video series (I think there are three total) you get the idea of just how normalized this is.


QUOTE]

No, you get someone's take on this as normalized; you get a certain social propaganda; you get a filtered media experience.

It reminds me of that wonderful sequence in one of the Michael Moore movies, of the media depiction of all the things were are supposed to be afraid of--very funny. Was it Bowling for Columbine?

[Chicken lady]

The room is long and narrow. The spinning wheels are in the corners of the wall opposite the woodstove. The woodstove is flanked by the metal chairs and you walk in the front door, right in front of the stove, and through the other door into the house. Most of the room is to your left.

Everything not otherwise labelled is sitting on the floor.

The big question on everyone's mind this thanksgiving was: "why does mom have 2 spinning wheels?"

Answer one is new, works, and operates easily with minimal adjustment choices. one is a family antique, needs some work and will then be more versatile but I will have to learn how to use it. (new bike with training wheels and no gears vs bike with gears, handbrake, rusty chain, worn out brake pads, and two flat tires)

[Ultralight]

Well, if you are all fine with that then probably not a big deal.

[Chicken lady]

Here is the sad thing: an awesome Christmas gift for me would be to have somebody fix up the wheel, teach me to adjust the drive band, and give me say, half a dozen lessons. Then I could sell or trade the new wheel.

Nobody thinks that's a good idea. Everybody will give me a thing which will add to my hoarding issues because it will have an emotional tie to the giver for me.

And I will continue to not prioritize the spinning wheels because nobody cares but me.

[Ultralight]

Here is the sad thing: an awesome Christmas gift for me would be to have somebody fix up the wheel, teach me to adjust the drive band, and give me say, half a dozen lessons. Then I could sell or trade the new wheel.

Nobody thinks that's a good idea. Everybody will give me a thing which will add to my hoarding issues because it will have an emotional tie to the giver for me.

And I will continue to not prioritize the spinning wheels because nobody cares but me.

What is at the very core of this issue?

[rodeosweetheart]

Chicken, if you contact the spinning/weaving community, there will be somebody who can help you. I discussed the issue of spinning lessons with the lady at the farmer's market but just did not have the time for a new hobby with my job from hell. Now, I might revisit this, but only after finishing about a million other long ignored projects.

But it is not at all hard to find someone who can help you with the wheel and with lessons. The best place to go is farmers market or yarn store and ask around.

[bae]

I can see the attraction of making fun of those who live differently, and who have different value systems.

[rodeosweetheart]

I can see the attraction of making fun of those who live differently, and who have different value systems.

Yeah, I am trying to get far away from that attraction, as it goes down a very bitter path, if you follow that attraction. . .

[Ultralight]

I can see the attraction of making fun of those who live differently, and who have different value systems.

Does it matter who they are, why and how they live differently, and why and how their value systems are different?

I mean, I had no problem making fun of Mitt Romney. :)

[Chicken lady]

Ultralight, to quote one of my father's favorite movie scenes "what we have here, is a failure, to communicate."

Or, Nobody really hears what the rabbit lady is saying. Because she's crazy. And they know best. And the rabbit lady is so busy defending her rabbits she doesn't have energy to learn better. (symbolic, not literal. There is level on which that rabbit lady and I are the same.)

[Ultralight]

Ultralight, to quote one of my father's favorite movie scenes "what we have here, is a failure, to communicate."

Or, Nobody really hears what the rabbit lady is saying. Because she's crazy. And they know best. And the rabbit lady is so busy defending her rabbits she doesn't have energy to learn better. (symbolic, not literal. There is level on which that rabbit lady and I are the same.)

What is the rabbit lady saying? I want to really hear it. I am curious.

[Chicken lady]

She loves the rabbits. The neighborhood children love the rabbits. The rabbits are living good, normal, natural rabbit lives and bringing joy to her and the neighborhood. The rabbits are happy. The government has no right to take her rabbits.

She needs a rabbit friend. Not a psycho nazi rabbit rescue person (I'm the rabbit lady, ok) who will confront her and disagree with everything, but a person with a lot of rabbits who can nudge her one management detail at a time and help her see the rabbits clearly.

And really, the average life expectancy of a wild rabbit is something like 9 months and most of them are injured and infested with parasites. So left on their own they don't actually do all that well. (that's me, not the rabbit lady)

[iris lilies]

Our garage is packed , every inch, except the space where two vehicles reside.

We built the garage expressly for DH's midlife crises car, a vintage Benz. So he will not fill it beyond capacity to hold the Benz. But he WILL fill it up to within a few inches.

[Chicken lady]

Our garage has knee high drifts around three sides and waist high shelves full on one side. It is an oversized 2 car and stores our outdoor furniture in the winter (now). It is currently also storing tools belonging to the carpenters. You can still open all the car doors. I think it's a mess. Most of the "garage" type stuff is kept in the animal barn or the workshop/studio barn though. Like garden tools - animal barn, "lawnmower" (tractor) - workshop barn

[Ultralight]

Our garage has knee high drifts around three sides and waist high shelves full on one side. It is an oversized 2 car and stores our outdoor furniture in the winter (now). It is currently also storing tools belonging to the carpenters. You can still open all the car doors. I think it's a mess. Most of the "garage" type stuff is kept in the animal barn or the workshop/studio barn though. Like garden tools - animal barn, "lawnmower" (tractor) - workshop barn


The garage here is full to the rafters. There are goat trails between the cars and the walls and between the two cars. My canoe hangs on the walls. My other fishing stuff in the body of the canoe or just under the canoe on the floor.

It is packed in there though.

[Williamsmith]

UA, why do you live with your parents? Have I got that right?

[Ultralight]

UA, why do you live with your parents? Have I got that right?

I don't live with my parents. I have not lived with them since the beginning of my junior year of high school when they kicked me out.


I currently live with my sis and BIL. I have previously lived with roommates or my ex-wife.

[rosarugosa]

Well we're good; we don't have a garage :)
Although that shed is pretty stuffed!

[catherine]

My DH goes crazy every time he has to go in the garage. We've lived in the house for 30 years and stuff just accumulated--especially when our kids would move out, move in, move out, bring stuff from Apartment A that they don't want in Apartment B but might someday, etc. etc. But we can't just blame them.. we have our own stuff, too, in boxes, meant for garage sales or flea markets, or stuff from my MIL, Christmas stuff, car repair stuff, woodworking stuff, planting stuff, stuff from when DH left his office outside the home and then returned to work at home.

But we just this minute came back from a weekend and a day helping DS/DDIL move out of their one-bedroom apartment, and I honestly don't know where all that stuff was hiding.. the house always looked neat, but once the stuff came out of the shadows, it was unbelievable. They gave carloads of stuff away, they threw out all kinds of stuff that was perfectly good but they just didn't want to deal with it, it was unbelievable how much stuff was there, and I don't want to sound critical, because I'm sure if I were to move, it would look just as bad.

Because they were just so busy they didn't have time to pack things up in an organized way, and I really think my DDIL, who I believe is overly sensitive to stimuli, just checked out mentally. I don't think she could cope with it because when I went to help her on Saturday, she wouldn't let me help her sort stuff, but she wasn't doing it either. It was like total shut-down. She told me she swears she's going minimalist next time around..

So, her home wasn't quite as bad as some of those images in the video on most days, but last weekend it certainly did.

[awakenedsoul]

My house doesn't look like that. I couldn't live that way. I have a very small house, and if I just leave a few things out, it looks messy.

I don't have much stuff. Never did. My backyard shed is pretty gross, though. It's not that full, but it's chaotic. I've got to get out there and clean it.

Interesting videos. I watched them again. I had seen this before, but forgot. My brother and sister in law both work and have two kids. He was super neat and clean when he was single. Now their house looks like that. She is a hoarder.

[Ultralight]

Because they were just so busy they didn't have time to pack things up in an organized way, and I really think my DDIL, who I believe is overly sensitive to stimuli, just checked out mentally. I don't think she could cope with it because when I went to help her on Saturday, she wouldn't let me help her sort stuff, but she wasn't doing it either.

This is definitely not good. :(

But I admire you for helping. Very dedicated.

[Ultralight]

Something about these vids that I found most interesting was that in the majority of these homes the women had very high cortisol levels -- so high levels of stress hormone associated with the clutter and hoards they had to deal with. Having high levels of cortisol for long periods of time cause all sorts of bad health problems.

Again, stuff is just not worth it! haha

[Chicken lady]

I kind of wonder if the stress was from the actual stuff or from feelings of being judged for the stuff by the anthropologists - women tend to feel that they need to live up to the expectations of others. The men living with the stuff did not have high levels of cortisol, so the mere existence of the stuff wasn't the cause.

They hypothesized that managing the stuff fell on the women and it was this need to manage stuff that caused the stress. But I wonder if it wasn't the feeling that they should be managing the stuff and were failing rather than the actual stuff management.

They need to do a study where they go in and tell the woman how much better her house is than all the other houses and how amazing a job she is doing keeping it together over and over again while they explore the house, and THEN measure her cortisol level.

[Ultralight]

I kind of wonder if the stress was from the actual stuff or from feelings of being judged for the stuff by the anthropologists - women tend to feel that they need to live up to the expectations of others. The men living with the stuff did not have high levels of cortisol, so the mere existence of the stuff wasn't the cause.

They hypothesized that managing the stuff fell on the women and it was this need to manage stuff that caused the stress. But I wonder if it wasn't the feeling that they should be managing the stuff and were failing rather than the actual stuff management.

They need to do a study where they go in and tell the woman how much better her house is than all the other houses and how amazing a job she is doing keeping it together over and over again while they explore the house, and THEN measure her cortisol level.

I am not sure. Wouldn't the men also feel judged?

The researchers in the video thought it might be because the women were thought to be the ones responsible for keeping their house clean.

And I think that even if the cortisol levels were "from" feeling judged that it really goes back to the stuff.

If the stuff causes the stress then get rid of the stuff. No more stress from stuff.

If the stuff causes a person to feel judged and that makes them have high cortisol levels then getting rid of the stuff would mean they were no longer feeling judged, so no more stress.

Getting rid of the stuff works either way (in my overly simplistic explanation). haha


But I have another thought on it. And this is just me speculating. I wonder if the high stress levels are "needed" to maintain a massive hoard. But taking away that hoard would cause a hugely massive spike in stress levels. So these women cope on the day-to-day with higher stress levels because it keeps them perilously perched on the tightrope. But falling off the tightrope would send them into mental and emotional shock and distress.

Does this make sense? I am not a mental health pro, so my wording is probably wonky. haha

[catherine]

I just watched the 3 vids and they were very interesting. I liked how they analyzed the "why's" of the clutter--such as the use of the big refrigerator to store convenience food. It's interesting also to think about how refrigerators are a very recent staple of the home. 100 years ago freon wasn't even used commercially. There were ice boxes, with real ice to keep things cool. Freon definitely helped pave the way for less time on food acquisition and preparation, and the "grab and go" lifestyle we've created. It also spawned a huge industry of packaged goods, and enabled all kinds of refrigerator-door condiment-clutter.

[catherine]

BTW, if you need an antidote to these videos on clutter, one of my very favorite home books is Peaceful Spaces by Alice Whately. Just thumbing through the book makes me feel more serene.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EB9EV6RBL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[Chicken lady]

No, the men don't feel judged because they also think it's the woman's responsibility. Our culture still uses the word "housewife". "stay at home dad" is gaining some traction, but I'll bet "househusband" will ever catch on. In two earner families it is generally still the woman who does most of the huldcare and housework. Even if she has longer hours and better pay.

When dh was in school and I was working full time to support us, it was still to me that people address housekeeping tips and recipes.

Dd works 40+ hours a week. She helps support her s.o. who has a very part time, minimum wage job. When people come over, they speak to her when they say the house is lovely or the food is delicious. And she says "I know, right! He's an amazing cook (housekeeper)". And people sometimes look at her like she insulted him.

Women feel bad when they *think* they are fat even if their weight is well within normal. Most men think they look great when they are 20lbs overweight. Women are trained to internalize judgement about appearances and homes. To get men to react that way they have to feel like their professional, technical, or sexual competence is under attack.

I have a doll collection which I really enjoy. If you checked my stress level after I rearranged and dusted the dolls, it would probably be very low. But I know my family thinks the doll collection is a rediculous waste of space, time and energy. Dd even refers to the room with the dolls cupboard as "the scary doll room". so I am defensive about my doll collection. And if a new person were to be shown my collection - my stress level would be very high. But if that person were to smile in delight and begin saying positive things and engage me in interested conversation about the dolls, my stress level would drop rapidly. (and I would have a new friend). So I think the solution is not always to get rid of the stuff (I would be sad and miss my dolls) but to help women build self esteem that is not dependent on the validation of random members of society.

[Ultralight]

BTW, if you need an antidote to these videos on clutter, one of my very favorite home books is Peaceful Spaces by Alice Whately. Just thumbing through the book makes me feel more serene.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EB9EV6RBL._SX258_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

I am intrigued. I may put this on my reading list! :)

[Ultralight]

No, the men don't feel judged because they also think it's the woman's responsibility. Our culture still uses the word "housewife". "stay at home dad" is gaining some traction, but I'll bet "househusband" will ever catch on. In two earner families it is generally still the woman who does most of the huldcare and housework. Even if she has longer hours and better pay.

When dh was in school and I was working full time to support us, it was still to me that people address housekeeping tips and recipes.

Dd works 40+ hours a week. She helps support her s.o. who has a very part time, minimum wage job. When people come over, they speak to her when they say the house is lovely or the food is delicious. And she says "I know, right! He's an amazing cook (housekeeper)". And people sometimes look at her like she insulted him.

Women feel bad when they *think* they are fat even if their weight is well within normal. Most men think they look great when they are 20lbs overweight. Women are trained to internalize judgement about appearances and homes. To get men to react that way they have to feel like their professional, technical, or sexual competence is under attack.

I have a doll collection which I really enjoy. If you checked my stress level after I rearranged and dusted the dolls, it would probably be very low. But I know my family thinks the doll collection is a rediculous waste of space, time and energy. Dd even refers to the room with the dolls cupboard as "the scary doll room". so I am defensive about my doll collection. And if a new person were to be shown my collection - my stress level would be very high. But if that person were to smile in delight and begin saying positive things and engage me in interested conversation about the dolls, my stress level would drop rapidly. (and I would have a new friend). So I think the solution is not always to get rid of the stuff (I would be sad and miss my dolls) but to help women build self esteem that is not dependent on the validation of random members of society.

Okay, first let me say that we're just exploring some ideas here, mulling things over and whatnot.

So here are some of my thoughts on the topics you brought up above.

Men might not feel judged about the clutter because they think it is the woman's responsibility. That is totally possible. I also wonder if it is because they compartmentalize the living spaces ("These spaces are mine; those spaces are the wife's"). So perhaps his tool shed is organized and tidy, so he doesn't worry that her craft room is mayhem.

Perhaps men are more prone to "clutter blindness."

There could also just be a male privilege thing where men are like: "So my house is a disaster. Why should I care?"

I realize that women do most of the childcare and housework. I don't think more than a small fraction of men are going to willingly and happily volunteer to vacuum the house and babysit their kids more than they absolutely have to. Why would they? So women are probably just going to have to take a stand and compel them to do their part.

For the record, when I was married I did my half of the housework and the majority of the dog care -- like getting up in the middle of the night to let the whining puppy out.

It seems like your daughter and s.o. have an arrangement they are both happy with. Good for them!

Women might well be trained to internalize judgement about appearances and homes. Who are the people who can best empower them to overcome this training? Who can nip this training in the bud?

I think there is a major difference between a collection and a hoard. A collection is often on display and it is well-organized, well-cleaned, and something the owner is proud of. Your dolls sound more like a collection.

Not everyone is going to like your stuff. My vegan friends dislike my fishing gear. It happens. haha



The issue of judging is a peculiar one though...

I don't care that some people -- even friends -- judge me for fishing and dining on my catch. Why? Because I am confident in it.

[Chicken lady]

Well, I have done my best to instill my daughter (s and son) with confidence in their choices. But i am swimming upstream in this culture. I consider you to be a fairly thoughtful and reasonable person. You just used the term "babysit" in reference to a man caring for his own child.

[Ultralight]

Well, I have done my best to instill my daughter (s and son) with confidence in their choices. But i am swimming upstream in this culture. I consider you to be a fairly thoughtful and reasonable person. You just used the term "babysit" in reference to a man caring for his own child.

That is because I think most men consider caring for their children as mere "babysitting."

[catherine]

Re the idea of women feeling shame about their housekeeping (or lack thereof)

I once took the kids and my mom to see my brother and sister-in-law in MN. I think I've said this before here, but you folks from MN are so darned hospitable. One of my sister-in-law's friends had just gotten a messy divorce, had three young children and had just gotten her first full-time job post-kids--which was an hour commute into Minneapolis.

Yet she told my brother, "I want to have a party for your family--I don't have money for food, but if you bring food, I'll provide the back yard." I was astounded at this gesture. When we got there, her house was the typical 3-kid, working- single-mom mess, but all I could think of was her friendliness and generosity.

I was inspired by that, so when someone at work asked where we should have a company picnic, I volunteered my home, because my yard abuts a park, so families could take their kids to the baseball field, the swings, etc. Under normal circumstances I never would have had people over, because our house was still stuck in the 70s, there was some disrepair, it was just not ready for prime time to say the least. But I remembered Rebecca and said what the heck.

In hindsight, that decision gives me cringe moments. Nothing went wrong. I didn't hear any feedback about the state of my home. I put it behind me, but I still feel that shame. Having a neighbor's family over in the Midwest is a lot different than having your corporate colleagues over in New Jersey.

I have a little sign in my foyer from St. Benedict: "All are to be welcomed as Christ" and I find that the only way I can be 100% welcoming is if my house is tidy and clean. Otherwise I feel I have to stick my head out the door and tell people I'm busy--come back another day.

[rodeosweetheart]

So interesting that this thread has kind of devolved into gender stereotyping, isn't it.

I wonder why that is. . .

[Chicken lady]

Ultralight - that's what I mean about culture. Most men also still evaluate women as potential sex partners. But you would not tell us a new "babe" was hired at your work because you have been acculturated to know that that is inapropriate. You might say it to your male friends, but you wold instinctively avoid the word choice on a public forum.

Catherine, my children are out of the house. I no longer worry about embarrassing them (and should have stopped
Long ago - they learned how to sweep by the time they were 5. If the floor was dirty, clearly it wsn't really bothering them!). My husband knows that if he wants the house cleaner than it is, and asks, I will help him clean it. Otherwise, I just ignore it. If I notice horrified looks, I just say "everybody around here has more important things to do than clean up."


When my kids arrived for thanksgiving, dd rolled up the construction mats and ds swept. First dd handed me some roses and said "here, do something with these so they look good" - my skill set!


Sometimes my mother says things like "do you mind if I wash the counter (or, fold this laundry, or wash the dishes). Sometimes with things like the dishes I tell her I do mind, because I don't want her in the kitchen hand washing a bunch of stuff that can be loaded into the dishwasher when it is done with the first load - I want her with my family having fun.

[catherine]

So interesting that this thread has kind of devolved into gender stereotyping, isn't it.

I wonder why that is. . .

I agree.. a show about a woman sitting in a home filled with junk is called a Hoarders. A show about a man with a barn full of junk is called American Picker and the man is an "antique expert."

I know Hoarders has male hoarders, too, but far fewer of them.

[Tammy]

My daughter in law has forbidden my son from calling it babysitting when he is home alone with their children. I love it. These changes come slowly though. Even within my own feminist heart, I still struggle with feeling like I'm not a good woman if the apartment and laundry and my own beauty isn't up to par. It's especially difficult during the holiday season.

Example of this women's societal struggle: lots of movies about not so handsome man getting the beautiful woman. I can't think of any movie about the not so lovely woman getting the most handsome man. Outward appearance of both body and home is usually what women are judged by.

[Chicken lady]

I don't so much see it as gender stereotyping as as a discussion of gender stereotyping - relating back to the key issue that the women were the ones affected by stress in the homes.

[rodeosweetheart]

I am seeing gender stereotyping in the discussion, that is what I meant. The female apologia, the male assertion of "what is", the female attempting to mollify. Sorry if I was not clear!

[Chicken lady]

Stereotypical gender behavior? Not so much stereotyping? (aside from "most men" and "women tend" - mea culpa)

[rodeosweetheart]

My point being as women, we are trained to accept what men say at face value, and then attempt to placate, explain why we are exception, or apologize.

The appeasing behavior. The acceptance of ludicrous assertions, or defensive stance of "we are not like that ludicrous assertion."

Anyway, peace out!

[Ultralight]

Re the idea of women feeling shame about their housekeeping (or lack thereof)

I once took the kids and my mom to see my brother and sister-in-law in MN. I think I've said this before here, but you folks from MN are so darned hospitable. One of my sister-in-law's friends had just gotten a messy divorce, had three young children and had just gotten her first full-time job post-kids--which was an hour commute into Minneapolis.

Yet she told my brother, "I want to have a party for your family--I don't have money for food, but if you bring food, I'll provide the back yard." I was astounded at this gesture. When we got there, her house was the typical 3-kid, working- single-mom mess, but all I could think of was her friendliness and generosity.

I was inspired by that, so when someone at work asked where we should have a company picnic, I volunteered my home, because my yard abuts a park, so families could take their kids to the baseball field, the swings, etc. Under normal circumstances I never would have had people over, because our house was still stuck in the 70s, there was some disrepair, it was just not ready for prime time to say the least. But I remembered Rebecca and said what the heck.

In hindsight, that decision gives me cringe moments. Nothing went wrong. I didn't hear any feedback about the state of my home. I put it behind me, but I still feel that shame. Having a neighbor's family over in the Midwest is a lot different than having your corporate colleagues over in New Jersey.

I have a little sign in my foyer from St. Benedict: "All are to be welcomed as Christ" and I find that the only way I can be 100% welcoming is if my house is tidy and clean. Otherwise I feel I have to stick my head out the door and tell people I'm busy--come back another day.

This is a very interesting story.

I was always ashamed to have people over when I was a little kid. I had doorbell anxiety for sure.

[Chicken lady]

Did you feel responsible for the mess?

[rodeosweetheart]

I agree.. a show about a woman sitting in a home filled with junk is called a Hoarders. A show about a man with a barn full of junk is called American Picker and the man is an "antique expert."

I know Hoarders has male hoarders, too, but far fewer of them.

Funny!! The hoarders I have known in real life have all been men. My father-in-law, my brother-in-law.

Another sister-in-law was with a male hoarder who was one of those American pickers type--he had a FORTUNE in antiques in his eerily jampacked barn. She finally left him because he was so stuck in his life--could not complete anything, could not let go of anything. Just frozen in time.

[Ultralight]

Something else about gender stereotyping that I find intriguing and I relate to the issue of hoarding (and minimalism) is shopping.

I know a guy who fancies himself a real manly type. He hunts, fishes, drives a big truck, is a gun nut, etc.

But he loves shopping! He goes to the sporting goods stores and just fills the carts. He has mountains of outdoor gear -- so much that when he is outdoors he is basically not even outdoors. haha

And the thing is, I just think that this is such an unmanly behavior. I know I am gender stereotyping but it is so knee jerk I cannot help it.

I just think: "Dude, what kind of a man shops like this?"

He is a friend of a relative, so I don't interact with him much. But once in a while I will hear about some shopping haul he made or he'll be somewhere I am at and I'll actually see the shopping haul.

[Ultralight]

Did you feel responsible for the mess?

Perhaps a little. But I mostly just felt like it was a failure in parenting.

[catherine]

Catherine, my children are out of the house. I no longer worry about embarrassing them


My kids are long out of the house, too. It's my own embarrassment I'm talking about. Now when they come over, I treat them as guests. I make sure the house looks as good as I can make it (a joint project with DH--I clean, he shops and cooks). We light candles, we put on nice music.

Even if my DIL who lives local wants to bring the baby over, we tell her what time to come so that we can make sure everything is presentable. It won't be perfect, believe me (when we are by ourselves, we are not neat freaks by a long shot) but in my mind, offering guests (which now include my children and their SOs) a nice place to come to is a gift to them and something I want to do. Plus, on my part, I feel uncomfortable if they come over and the place is a mess.

[Ultralight]

I can understand this. My space does not get all that dirty, except maybe my car. But when I am going to have someone over or someone is getting in my car, I clean up and spruce up more than I would for just myself. Febreeze is key too! haha

[Chicken lady]

Oh, I do clean up for company in general, but there is only so much time. I left the construction mats down and made everyone's favorite pies and cleaned off all the tables and cleared the walkways and made the beds and put out fresh towels.

Yesterday I swept just for dh and me - but probably dh would rather have another pie. Now I am "decluttering" (mostly rearranging and cleaning actually) the studio. I KNOW dh would rather have another pie. But this is for me. And I am enjoying the process actually. I like playing in my hoard.

[Ultralight]

Oh, I do clean up for company in general, but there is only so much time.

I am keenly aware of this time crunch. It is a major reason I jettisoned so much of my stuff. I like to have more free time! :)

[Chicken lady]

Yeah. I'd rather have pies (and bowls and pie pans and a pastry cutter and a sifter and measuring cups and spoons and knives and forks and plates and dish towels and napkins) than a clean floor. Your journey differs.

[Ultralight]

Your journey differs.

All journeys differ. :)

[catherine]

Yeah. I'd rather have pies (and bowls and pie pans and a pastry cutter and a sifter and measuring cups and spoons and knives and forks and plates and dish towels and napkins) than a clean floor. Your journey differs.

I'd doubt I'd see stuff on your floor on my way to getting to a piece of your pie, Chicken lady!

[kib]

My daughter in law has forbidden my son from calling it babysitting when he is home alone with their children. I love it. These changes come slowly though. Even within my own feminist heart, I still struggle with feeling like I'm not a good woman if the apartment and laundry and my own beauty isn't up to par. It's especially difficult during the holiday season.

Example of this women's societal struggle: lots of movies about not so handsome man getting the beautiful woman. I can't think of any movie about the not so lovely woman getting the most handsome man. Outward appearance of both body and home is usually what women are judged by. I really identify with the "babysitting" comment. It's one of those unexamined assumptions that creeps into my life as well. "Is there something I can do for you" - when we have company coming. Now the brainwashed part of me thinks how nice, he's offering to help. But the awake part thinks, For Me? Yes, you can do your share of your work. Keeping up with the stuff and dirt here is not my job, it is our job.

[Ultralight]

I really identify with the "babysitting" comment. It's one of those unexamined assumptions that creeps into my life as well. "Is there something I can do for you" - when we have company coming. Now the brainwashed part of me thinks how nice, he's offering to help. But the awake part thinks, For Me? Yes, you can do your share of your work. Keeping up with the stuff and dirt here is not my job, it is our job.

Have you ever explained this to him?

[Chicken lady]

This is another area where we run into culture. His parents should have taught him that and society should reinforce it - you wipe your own butt, you do your own homework, you clean up your own messes/space, you pay your bills, you care for your children.

The discussions should turn up when someone says "if you will (clean the house/pay the bills), I will (pay the bills/care for the children.)"

[kib]

UL: Shrug. It's a lot more complicated than just saying "this is your job too". When your mother told you it wasn't your job, and society still tells you it's not your job, and it would be really nice to go on believing that it's not your job, there is a vested interest in maintaining the idea that it's not your job. You yourself have said that your GF expects to be taken out to nice places whether you can afford it or not, and regardless of how much each of you earns. How far does it get you to tell her it's her job to take you out?

Chickenlady, I agree that there are ways of negotiating fair arrangement like the one you mentioned. My experience is that this negotiation / message has to happen every two weeks or so, if the receiving person isn't really interested in receiving it.

[Ultralight]

UL: Shrug. It's a lot more complicated than just saying "this is your job too". When your mother told you it wasn't your job, and society still tells you it's not your job, and it would be really nice to go on believing that it's not your job, there is a vested interest in maintaining the idea that it's not your job. You yourself have said that your GF expects to be taken out to nice places whether you can afford it or not, and regardless of how much each of you earns. How far does it get you to tell her it's her job to take you out?

Amen, sistah!

[Chicken lady]

Yes kib, because we are starting with the cultural background we have.

The same culture that says we should have all this stuff but woe to you lady if it's not neatly organized and woe to you sir if you don't have a big house to put it in.


I kind of want to know why the anthropologist was only talking to the woman. Is there a bunch more film somewhere?

[Ultralight]

The same culture that says we should have all this stuff but woe to you lady if it's not neatly organized and woe to you sir if you don't have a big house to put it in.

I feel you on this uphill, in the snow, hardcore battle against the culture. As someone who is routinely asked: "What if everyone became a minimalist, the economy would collapse?!"

I get it.



I kind of want to know why the anthropologist was only talking to the woman. Is there a bunch more film somewhere?

I am not sure about this either. Did you watch all the videos? I can't remember if they explained why the women were the focus.

[Chicken lady]

I did watch all the videos. They are short, the followup is just with the one woman. Maybe it was because of the cortisol study, but they didn't really discuss that, and what we get to see is very narrow and shallow.

[Ultralight]

They are short... what we get to see is very narrow and shallow.

I know. Time constraints! I'd like to have access to the B-roll or the extended version.

[Tammy]

Exactly! When the discussion has to happen every few weeks - then the woman is still the one in charge of the house and the man is still "helping" to keep it clean.

All that reminding still puts it all on the woman.

I've found a thing that works for us. I never think about our one shared vehicle. I just get in and drive. He keeps it gassed up and maintained. He never thinks about filling his prescriptions or making his doc appts. I do it all and he just takes his pills and go to the appts I remind him about.

So in those two areas we both work in our area of strength to do it all for the two of us. And neither one feels like we're overworking cause in the other area we're able to slack.

Now if only I could expand that idea/plan to cover all areas of life ....

[rodeosweetheart]

I did watch all the videos. They are short, the followup is just with the one woman. Maybe it was because of the cortisol study, but they didn't really discuss that, and what we get to see is very narrow and shallow.

Right, and the cortisol study reminds me of the 19th century view of "hysteria" in women-- "all womb-related"!

I don't think there is more film anywhere. Lots of gender stereotyping in the selection process here.

[kib]

I found it peculiar that they focused a bit on Costco, and then tried to make it appear that it was the consumer who inexplicably desired to buy 96 granola bars at once. Like we're all out there craving to own our own packing crate full of granola bars. Food is sold at a deep discount but only if you buy cases of it, hello, this is not a consumer driven choice. Looking for the best price through bulk buying may be a misguided choice, but it's certainly not an anthropological mystery.

[rodeosweetheart]

I found it peculiar that they focused a bit on Costco, and then tried to make it appear that it was the consumer who inexplicably desired to buy 96 granola bars at once. Like we're all out there craving to own our own packing crate full of granola bars. Food is sold at a deep discount but only if you buy cases of it, hello, this is not a consumer driven choice.

I find myself struggling with this conundrum, Kib. Yesterday I could have bought a bottle of Valerian for 5.49 or buy one get one free for 8.49. I really did not want two bottles, yet the bogof was double the amount in the capsule, so it was a much, much better deal. I bought the bogof, but it kind of bugged me because I don't really want the extra bottle sitting around.

I never quite feel I am doing the right thing. My husband is all about stocking up, but I like the "just the right number of things" look.

You have to really plan for those buying warehouse places, as I find having too much stocked up feels oppressive.

[kib]

And now you have to spend twice as long praying you don't stumble over an article telling you valerian root may cause foot fungus and you should use melatonin instead - and they're even having a bogo sale on it. >8)

[bae]

I found it peculiar that they focused a bit on Costco, and then tried to make it appear that it was the consumer who inexplicably desired to buy 96 granola bars at once. Like we're all out there craving to own our own packing crate full of granola bars. Food is sold at a deep discount but only if you buy cases of it, hello, this is not a consumer driven choice. Looking for the best price through bulk buying may be a misguided choice, but it's certainly not an anthropological mystery.

It's not clear it is even a misguided choice, or a choice a rational consumer wouldn't make.

For instance, I happen to go through a lot of granola bars (or equivalent) in wilderness search/rescue events and drills. And other similar events. They are small, provide needed energy, are packed relatively robustly, have a decent shelf life, and so on.

I also live where it is a pain to shop, it involves a day or two expedition by boat to get supplies. So I can mail-order a couple of crates of granola bars a few times a year, or remember to stop into Costco when I'm on the mainland and get some, or I can pay insanely high prices to buy them by the individual piece here at our store.

[iris lilies]

It's not clear it is even a misguided choice, or a choice a rational consumer wouldn't make.

For instance, I happen to go through a lot of granola bars (or equivalent) in wilderness search/rescue events and drills. And other similar events. They are small, provide needed energy, are packed relatively robustly, have a decent shelf life, and so on.

I also live where it is a pain to shop, it involves a day or two expedition by boat to get supplies. So I can mail-order a couple of crates of granola bars a few times a year, or remember to stop into Costco when I'm on the mainland and get some, or I can pay insanely high prices to buy them by the individual piece here at our store.


So, you and other mountaineering and/or outdoor types are the ideal clients for crates of granola bars. I am not. Yet crates of these and other things line the shelves in our Costco and SAMs Club as though we are all heading out to the island for a 4 month stay.

I dislike the warehouse stores for their huge quantities and limited choices, and I like
rodeosweetheart's idea of right sized supplies for the space.

I live with a squirrel-man who spends much energy putting away provisions for winter. It's a balancing act having enough but not,too,much.

[kib]

It's not clear it is even a misguided choice, or a choice a rational consumer wouldn't make.

For instance, I happen to go through a lot of granola bars (or equivalent) in wilderness search/rescue events and drills. And other similar events. They are small, provide needed energy, are packed relatively robustly, have a decent shelf life, and so on.

I also live where it is a pain to shop, it involves a day or two expedition by boat to get supplies. So I can mail-order a couple of crates of granola bars a few times a year, or remember to stop into Costco when I'm on the mainland and get some, or I can pay insanely high prices to buy them by the individual piece here at our store. I didn't mean that bulk buying is a misguided choice for everyone. It can be perfect. But it's not the knee-jerk automatic win it's made out to be. I'm another person who walks that fine line between having saved 30% and finding myself in some 2001 Space Odyssey scenario, every cupboard stuffed full of Blue Food. WasaCrisp Lite (which is really low carb and tastes like an anemic cheezedoodle) ... would you like a box? I have 24, they fill an entire shelf in the pantry. I also have 24 cans of organic tomato paste, if you prefer. (definitely an improvement over the 128 oz can of the stuff I bought the time before, back in 2003, that took up freezer space for nearly a decade. :|() In the case of a place like Costco, I would not say the option of oversized merchandise is consumer driven. It's simply more profitable for them to buy wholesale quantities and pass on wholesale quantities at double the price than to try to break down items into manageable portions.

[JaneV2.0]

Oddly, the only things I buy in any quantity at Costco are their jumbo jars of artichoke hearts (bundled as two jars). And AA batteries. I should go there more often.

[bae]

In the case of a place like Costco, I would not say the option of oversized merchandise is consumer driven. It's simply more profitable for them to buy wholesale quantities and pass on wholesale quantities at double the price than to try to break down items into manageable portions.

If you look at the history of those bulk warehouses, I think you will find that it *was* consumer driven. I remember in the earlier days going there with a "commercial membership", and most of the customers were restaurants, schools, day care centers, fire stations, retirement homes, and businesses of all sorts. Low prices for bulk purchases and very little handling.

People hereabouts will get together with A Big List of supplies, and send one person over to the mainland to Costco with a big truck, then they split up the supplies once they arrive here.

Now, if I were an individual living in a small apartment near a ready sources of supplies, it wouldn't make sense to buy most things from Costco - I wouldn't have the storage space, and the membership cost/bother wouldn't be worth it, I suspect.

As it is, my dear Mother does a truck run with a couple of friends for the Senior Center here every few weeks, and if I remember to let her know what I need, it magically appears. I will confess that Amazon Prime has replaced Costco for most of the supplies I used to source. The prices are often better, and it is less bother. I still can't figure out how they make any money shipping me toilet paper at those prices, but heck....

[bae]

And AA batteries. I should go there more often.

I've not bought AA batteries in years now, since I switched over to rechargeables. Much less waste.

http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-High-Capacity-Rechargeable-Batteries-Pre-charged/dp/B00HZV9WTM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1449013880&sr=1-1&keywords=AmazonBasics+AA+High-Capacity+Rechargeable+Batteries

[catherine]

Oddly, the only things I buy in any quantity at Costco are their jumbo jars of artichoke hearts (bundled as two jars). And AA batteries. I should go there more often.

I do jumbo double-packs of peanut butter (for homemade dog treats) and jumbo double-packs of Worcestershire sauce--we go through the stuff like crazy.

[kib]

I used to get 40 lb boxes of cat litter hand delivered from Amazon for free for cheaper than the grocery, and no tax. I guess they finally hired an accountant.

I still can't figure out why you buy toilet paper. ;)

It's my guess that Costco figured out there was a market of people looking for great sale prices who weren't really thinking about the practicalities of buying so much, cow-hiso they expanded their marketing to reach out to people with no need for bulk buys, but a great desire for saving money. The Great Deal has become the coupon craze of the teens. (Is Black Friday / Cyber Monday ever going to end?)

I do love bulk bins. Not quite the savings equivalent of community purchases from Costco, but I can get as much as I want for a good price. (I notice I don't tend to have 50 pounds of rice sitting in my cabinet just because I can scoop it out for $.52 a pound, for me whatever allure Costco has is definitely driven by the price and not the quantity).

ETA: I think we save enough money in cheap gigantic roast chickens to pay for our membership twice over. Talk about cognitive dissonance, I don't even want to think about the morality of that choice ...

[bae]

I still can't figure out why you buy toilet paper. ;)


Evergreen forest. No leaves.

[JaneV2.0]

I've not bought AA batteries in years now, since I switched over to rechargeables. Much less waste.

http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-High-Capacity-Rechargeable-Batteries-Pre-charged/dp/B00HZV9WTM/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1449013880&sr=1-1&keywords=AmazonBasics+AA+High-Capacity+Rechargeable+Batteries

I should take another look. I bought rechargeable batteries when they first came out and had awful luck with them.

[bae]

I should take another look. I bought rechargeable batteries when they first came out and had awful luck with them.

Same here. I've been much happier with the current-generation technology (Panasonic/Sanyo Eneloops and equivalent.). It's so nice to just swap out batteries after an adventure so I know I've always got fresh batteries ready to go, and not worry about producing a huge waste stream.

[sweetana3]

We now have rechargeable in almost everything and have been successful. Biggest issue for us is keeping the extras and the charger in one place so it can be located.

[bae]

We now have rechargeable in almost everything and have been successful. Biggest issue for us is keeping the extras and the charger in one place so it can be located.

That was also one of the failings of our first foray into using reschargeables. This time we have a box that contains chargers and batteries that I keep in my lab space, so everything is in one spot, and there's a bin in there for to-be-charged batteries. Every now-and-then I set up the chargers and recharge everything sitting in the bin.