Gifts...

[Ultralight]

So I ended up getting a gift from my dad. It is some kind of gadget to track the lunar cycles for fishing.

The problems:

-He knows I am a minimalist. Why did he get me something I don't need?
-He ought to know I do not fish with gadgets; I fish only with "native intelligence." So why would he give me this gadget?
-He also ought to know I profoundly dislike gadgets -- especially electronic ones. So again -- why?


I sort of oscillate between being annoyed that he would get me something I do not like or want and feeling like an ingrate and feeling like I am a stranger to my father (and vice versa).


The thing that bothers me is that now I have to figure a way for this thing to exit my life.

[Zoe Girl]

coming from the meditation practice angle, I can say that often gifts are a way for people to try and connect. I was pretty hard on my mom around gifts for many years but now as my kids are grown it is harder to get gifts just right, and hard that I don't see them all the time even though that is totally appropriate for their ages. very honestly, I forget these things about my own kids. I realized that I can recall my kids over the 18, 22, or 25 years of their lives meanwhile they are clearly paying attention to the 3 years or 5 years that they had something very specific like not using sugar in coffee. Something I probably should have known, but I am recalling 25 years and not just the adult years.

Does that make sense? I have realized that the things I think my mom or my kids or someone else 'should' know about me are not necessarily what they remember when they go to buy a gift. And maybe he is just not paying attention, but I would pay more attention to how that makes you feel connected or dis-connected to him than what he should do.

[Ultralight]

Interesting thoughts.

The thing that really bothers me is that now I have to get rid of this thing in a way that will be acceptable if (no... when!) he asks me about it.


And I know people use gifts to try to connect. Most of the time I find this troubling and even saddening.

Fishing is something one does, not something one has. I'd rather he just go fishing with me.

[herbgeek]

Our culture really encourages giving things over shared experience/spending time with people. If you don't give a gift, what do you do instead? (that's rhetorical- my supposition of how most people feel about this) . He DID give you something in your field of interest, which does show he is at least listening to some degree. He likely doesn't really know how to share your passion with you. Yes, you'll have to get rid of the gadget, maybe some young person you meet while fishing would be just delighted to have such a gadget, but I bet your dad's heart was in the right place.

[Ultralight]

Our culture really encourages giving things over shared experience/spending time with people. If you don't give a gift, what do you do instead? (that's rhetorical- my supposition of how most people feel about this) . He DID give you something in your field of interest, which does show he is at least listening to some degree. He likely doesn't really know how to share your passion with you. Yes, you'll have to get rid of the gadget, maybe some young person you meet while fishing would be just delighted to have such a gadget, but I bet your dad's heart was in the right place.

He probably did mean well.

But still...

My sis and I got Ancestry DNA tests for my mom and dad. Though this was partly for selfish reasons. haha

My mom thinks she is Irish. But we know of no one in our family is was from Ireland. Granted, there is a lot of fog in my parents' backgrounds though. My mom's dad was a doorstep baby -- just dropped off at a nunnery. And my dad's dad was not really his bio-dad -- he was the product of an affair.

My sis and I are banking on my mom not being Irish at all. Then we can finally get her to drop the obsession with Irish stuff.


But back to the fishing gadget. I might tell a white lie. I could just say: "Dad, I was out in the canoe in rough weather and I flipped. The device was lost in the murky depths."

Another option is to give it to my BIL (he also likes fishing). He is a hoarder and will take almost anything. lol

[Float On]

or you could try (if he asks), "Dad, thanks for the thoughtful gift. I tried it and found it didn't work for me. I found someone who wanted to give it a try and I bought some hooks, bait, or my 2016 license or whatever. I will think of you every time I fish this year. Thank you." Using "Thank you" and "Thoughtful" several times are key.

[Ultralight]

or you could try (if he asks), "Dad, thanks for the thoughtful gift. I tried it and found it didn't work for me. I found someone who wanted to give it a try and I bought some bait or this year's license or whatever. I will think of you every time I fish this year. Thank you." Using "Thank you" and "Thoughtful" several times are key.

Not bad... not bad at all. I will strongly consider this new option.

[Tammy]

I was gonna say - sell it.

I've learned to keep things in their original package, unopened if possible, for selling or regifting.

[ctg492]

Oh saying thank you or using it when he is around may mean a great deal to him. That old phrase, he won't be around forever. I just took the China set after 1 1/2 years of mom passing and Dad saying Take the China! I hate that China, I don't want the clutter, but if it made the man feel good and I just dumped it in a cardboard box, what difference did it make really.

Going a step farther after the event of getting rid of mom's things. I have decided when the day comes that I have to liquidate the home, NOT happening , I will call brother (lazy, mooch man) and say take it all. I want nothing.

[Ultralight]

Oh saying thank you or using it when he is around may mean a great deal to him. That old phrase, he won't be around forever. I just took the China set after 1 1/2 years of mom passing and Dad saying Take the China! I hate that China, I don't want the clutter, but if it made the man feel good and I just dumped it in a cardboard box, what difference did it make really.

Going a step farther after the event of getting rid of mom's things. I have decided when the day comes that I have to liquidate the home, NOT happening , I will call brother (lazy, mooch man) and say take it all. I want nothing.

Here is my issue with this strategy: It creates a monster I'll have to continuously feed with my space, money, mental energy, and time.

He used to mail me boxes of miscellany every month or two for several years. I'd have to sell or give away stuff or store it some place in my apartment.

I know he won't be around forever. And having that stuff he gave me won't change that.

I also think that he is in charge of his own emotions. His emotions are in his charge.
So I don't want to just let him hoard up my life to make him feel good (temporarily!).

What different does it make if I store all the stuff he gives me in cardbord boxes? It means the difference between a cluttered living space and clean living space. It means the difference between renting a studio apartment and a one or two bedroom place with a garage. So it means real money. It also means dividing my attention between the things I want to do and cleaning, organizing, moving, maintaining the stuff he gives me.

[catherine]

OK, here's my take on it.

People try to intuit what others would like and very often miss the mark because they project at least a part of themselves into it. So, your dad clearly knows you well enough to know you love fishing, so he started there. Kudos to him. At least he didn't give you a Tiffany lamp.

He probably thought "fishing.. he has enough poles and lures. Gee, here's this awesome gadget that tracks lunar cycles. Lunar = nature, natural. [subconsious says: I love cool gadgets] This is a really neat, useful natural gadget! He'll love it! I hope he does!"

As for being sad that people try to connect with material objects, didn't the Indians give material things--food, fur, etc.? I think this is not a American Consumer issue. This is just how people are. They want to connect, they give what they can. Yes, it's a way to connect. What's the problem?

As for the mental energy and angst that comes with now owning the gift, how often do you see your dad? Is he going to make you accountable for keeping it on your person at all times? If you don't want to just hold onto it, just give it away, and if he's on a fishing trip with you and you don't have it, tell him you forgot it, or you left it on some other guy's boat.

I know you're a hard-core minimalist and these issues upset your value system, but try to look beyond it. If simple living is about valuing relationships, take the gift and accept it as a token of love from your father and say thank you.

[Ultralight]

OK, here's my take on it.

People try to intuit what others would like and very often miss the mark because they project at least a part of themselves into it. So, your dad clearly knows you well enough to know you love fishing, so he started there. Kudos to him. At least he didn't give you a Tiffany lamp.

He probably thought "fishing.. he has enough poles and lures. Gee, here's this awesome gadget that tracks lunar cycles. Lunar = nature, natural. [subconsious says: I love cool gadgets] This is a really neat, useful natural gadget! He'll love it! I hope he does!"

As for being sad that people try to connect with material objects, didn't the Indians give material things--food, fur, etc.? I think this is not a American Consumer issue. This is just how people are. They want to connect, they give what they can. Yes, it's a way to connect. What's the problem?

As for the mental energy and angst that comes with now owning the gift, how often do you see your dad? Is he going to make you accountable for keeping it on your person at all times? If you don't want to just hold onto it, just give it away, and if he's on a fishing trip with you and you don't have it, tell him you forgot it, or you left it on some other guy's boat.

I know you're a hard-core minimalist and these issues upset your value system, but try to look beyond it. If simple living is about valuing relationships, take the gift and accept it as a token of love from your father and say thank you.

I appreciate much of what is in your above statements. :)

I am probably going with the "white lie option." I'll tell him "its around here somewhere" or "I let my BIL borrow it" or some such.

But he will for sure ask: "You using that gadget I gave you?" He still does this for other gifts he gave me years ago that I have since sold, gave away, etc.

And if I accept it as a token of love from my dad then where does this stop? It will go back to the boxes and boxes of stuff he'd USPS to me every dang month.

I can't have that.

[catherine]

I appreciate much of what is in your above statements. :)

I am probably going with the "white lie option." I'll tell him "its around here somewhere" or "I let my BIL borrow it" or some such.

But he will for sure ask: "You using that gadget I gave you?" He still does this for other gifts he gave me years ago that I have since sold, gave away, etc.

And if I accept it as a token of love from my dad then where does this stop? It will go back to the boxes and boxes of stuff he'd USPS to me every dang month.

I can't have that.

Well, you're making me feel better about just dumping all the stuff I have in the garage that my kids have left behind rather than asking them if they want it sent to them ;)

I guess you know your dad, and you know what's tried and failed, but I just have to ask, have you clearly told your dad something to the effect of, "The best gift you can give me is to go fishing with me," or "I have a small apartment and I have told all my friends that I don't want any Christmas presents, and now I'm telling you, too."

Or even, "Dad, if you send me anything in the future, because of my space constraints, you have to know that I'll have to give it or throw it away. This is advance warning." On second thought, didn't you say once that he wanted to give you a gun, but he got upset when you mentioned selling it or giving it away? So, maybe my last suggestion won't work.

[Ultralight]

Haha! I think you should send them their stuff. :)

[bae]

Just tell your Dad that he doesn't fit into your minimalist life anymore, and dump him.

Or, you could try talking to him honestly. That could work too.

[Ultralight]

Just tell your Dad that he doesn't fit into your minimalist life anymore, and dump him.

Or, you could try talking to him honestly. That could work too.


Both valid options.

[pinkytoe]

For me, bad feelings are worse than any amount of clutter. My MIL gave me quite a bit of Avon kitsch over the years which I will never use, but it is stored in boxes in the attic until she passes. Not sure how I would handle it if I didn't have a place to store for a while.

[Zoe Girl]

I get your side more than you can know, I have had times I sent my mom back to her car with some of the stuff she brought (hand me downs mostly), other times I have told her directly that I couldn't take things. However now she has reduced her giving and I am meeting her halfway. I can appreciate it more since she did say this year that she understands I get stressed over large amounts of stuff. It used to be 2 large garbage bags 3 times a year, and this holiday it was a lot but things she had thought about or we had asked for like a new towel set.

If your dad has gone from sending regular boxes to one gift maybe this is the middle point. He is likely to keep buying some gifts but one gift is not trash bags full either.

[Ultralight]

For me, bad feelings are worse than any amount of clutter. My MIL gave me quite a bit of Avon kitsch over the years which I will never use, but it is stored in boxes in the attic until she passes. Not sure how I would handle it if I didn't have a place to store for a while.

If this system works for you, then good on you. :)

[Ultralight]

I get your side more than you can know, I have had times I sent my mom back to her car with some of the stuff she brought (hand me downs mostly), other times I have told her directly that I couldn't take things. However now she has reduced her giving and I am meeting her halfway. I can appreciate it more since she did say this year that she understands I get stressed over large amounts of stuff. It used to be 2 large garbage bags 3 times a year, and this holiday it was a lot but things she had thought about or we had asked for like a new towel set.

If your dad has gone from sending regular boxes to one gift maybe this is the middle point. He is likely to keep buying some gifts but one gift is not trash bags full either.

He is clever about it. He gives me little things (the gadget is the size of an old fashioned stopwatch). He has also given me little buttons that are shaped like fish for my fishing hat. He is always trying to sneak some item into my life. haha

[Chicken lady]

So really, this thing fits in a coat pocket and it would kill you to hang it on the garage wall and say "hey (bil) this is from dad. You're welcome to use it." and then just never think about it again?

And then think of ome thing you can ask your dad for next year! - dinner certificate, show tickets, something you can use to take your gf on one of those dates you hate to pay for!

[Ultralight]

So really, this thing fits in a coat pocket and it would kill you to hang it on the garage wall and say "hey (bil) this is from dad. You're welcome to use it." and then just never think about it again?

Oh, this is definitely high at the top of my options for white lies. haha

I have done this several times before.

The catch is that when I plop this stuff on my BIL my sis gets annoyed because she thinks my BIL is a hoarder, which might be true. She does not want me contributing to his problem. lol

[Ultralight]

And then think of one thing you can ask your dad for next year! - dinner certificate, show tickets, something you can use to take your gf on one of those dates you hate to pay for!

Here is the thing though, and I am glad you mentioned this because it really gets to the heart of the issue.

I would not ask my dad for anything or my mom.

Why? Because I don't need anything. I have (especially by international standards) a real abundance of stuff. And if my sneakers wear out then I will just buy a new pair because I have the wherewithal to do so.

I cannot make anyone in the first world admit that they have more than enough. So I'd at least like my friends and family to admit to themselves that I have enough.

[Mary B.]

I cannot make anyone in the first world admit that they have more than enough. So I'd at least like my friends and family to admit to themselves that I have enough.

I think the idea that we all have more than enough is actually pretty well understood. I don't think people give gifts because they think the person they are giving to doesn't have 'enough' in the sense of want -- I think it's more a gesture that at best is meant to say, "I see you, and I appreciate you, and I want to share with you." As a recipient it can be frustrating when the gift received instead seems to convey the message, "I don't see you and I have no idea what you want or are like." Sometimes it's most frustrating when the message is "I sort of see you -- see, I know you like fishing!" but without the level of intimacy required to realize you don't want stuff associated with fishing.

(I note that this would seem to make you a bit rare among people who go fishing since there often seems to be quite a bit of stuff involved.)

[Ultralight]

I think the idea that we all have more than enough is actually pretty well understood. I don't think people give gifts because they think the person they are giving to doesn't have 'enough' in the sense of want -- I think it's more a gesture that at best is meant to say, "I see you, and I appreciate you, and I want to share with you." As a recipient it can be frustrating when the gift received instead seems to convey the message, "I don't see you and I have no idea what you want or are like." Sometimes it's most frustrating when the message is "I sort of see you -- see, I know you like fishing!" but without the level of intimacy required to realize you don't want stuff associated with fishing.

(I note that this would seem to make you a bit rare among people who go fishing since there often seems to be quite a bit of stuff involved.)

Excellent insights into the culture of gift-giving.

[Chicken lady]

Well, as a parent, I'm going to say, that's not going to happen.

Your dad expresses love by giving you a gift. You tell him not to do that without giving him an alternative, so basically, to him, you're saying "keep your love to yourself". You can't just say "don't buy me stuff.". I, chicken lady, do not buy you stuff and I do not love you. (no offense, I hardly know you)

So you need to acknowledge that he wants to give you something and then tell him what you really want - clean air? Clean water? - donate to ths charity in my name. His time? Set a date to come fishing with me and bring lunch.

If your father giving you gifts truly makes you feel that he thinks you can't provide for yourself, tell him that. But I doubt that he thinks you NEED a lunar fish gizmo.

[Ultralight]

Well, as a parent, I'm going to say, that's not going to happen.

Your dad expresses love by giving you a gift. You tell him not to do that without giving him an alternative, so basically, to him, you're saying "keep your love to yourself". You can't just say "don't buy me stuff.". I, chicken lady, do not buy you stuff and I do not love you. (no offense, I hardly know you)

So you need to acknowledge that he wants to give you something and then tell him what you really want - clean air? Clean water? - donate to ths charity in my name. His time? Set a date to come fishing with me and bring lunch.

If your father giving you gifts truly makes you feel that he thinks you can't provide for yourself, tell him that. But I doubt that he thinks you NEED a lunar fish gizmo.

Uh... lol, I am not offended that you don't love me. :~)

I like when he gives me trout fillets from up in MI. Maybe I will try to reinforce that idea.

[razz]

UL, why are you expecting your family to think as you do? They don't. Accept it. They have that right.

You have the right to responsibly deal with the result. People love gadgets so give it to a sports organization that can use it as a fundraiser or door prize. You can tell dad that the sports group needed the money to help save fish or aid youth or whatever and it seemed more valuable to use it that way than occasionally using it to fish.

[Ultralight]

UL, why are you expecting your family to think as you do? They don't. Accept it. They have that right.

You have the right to responsibly deal with the result. People love gadgets so give it to a sports organization that can use it as a fundraiser or door prize. You can tell dad that the sports group needed the money to help save fish or aid youth or whatever and it seemed more valuable to use it that way than occasionally using it to fish.

Couldn't something very similar be said to my dad?

"Ultralite-Dad, why are you expecting your son to think as you do? He doesn't. Accept it. He has that right."

[rosarugosa]

My sis and I got Ancestry DNA tests for my mom and dad. Though this was partly for selfish reasons. haha



It sounds like we may all sometimes be guilty of giving gifts that are more reflective of what we want than what the recipient wants. :)

[Ultralight]

It sounds like we may all sometimes be guilty of giving gifts that are more reflective of what we want than what the recipient wants. :)


If my mom is even one percent Irish then my sis and I will really be eating crow.

[razz]

Couldn't something very similar be said to my dad?

"Ultralite-Dad, why are you expecting your son to think as you do? He doesn't. Accept it. He has that right."

Only you are feeling frustrated right now. Only you can deal with your sense of frustration.

[Ultralight]

I could shift the frustration right back by telling him to take the item back.

I have done that with other things.

[pinkytoe]

This conversation reminds me of why we chose to have a little geographical distance from certain family members way back when. When we saw each other frequently, there was always a tendency to give us things whether we wanted them or not. Now it's a check or gift card in the mail.

[ApatheticNoMore]

This conversation reminds me of why we chose to have a little geographical distance from certain family members way back when. When we saw each other frequently, there was always a tendency to give us things whether we wanted them or not. Now it's a check or gift card in the mail.

funny, i think it would be the opposite, if you see people a lot, there's no need for gifts to substitute for spending time, and no need for one day to be a "big special event" either. I guess some people are just gift obsessed.

[Williamsmith]

What are you so afraid of? It's just one little gadget? You only get one father.

[Ultralight]

What are you so afraid of? It's just one little gadget? You only get one father.

Like I said, accepting it without conditions would be creating a monster (or rather reviving a monster) that I have to continually feed.

But it is worth noting that my father and I do not have a good past.

He kicked me out of the house when I was a junior in high school, for instance.

I think if I had more than one father I'd be in real, real bad shape. One was enough to deal with.

[Williamsmith]

Reconciliation is possible without formal apology. Not certain......but possible. And from my perspective it is worth it a million times over.

A man can sit in prison plotting the demise of those who put him there. But doing so is like swallowing a strong poison and hoping it kills your enemy.

[kally]

May I ask if the DNA testing was something your folks wanted?

[ToomuchStuff]

He probably did mean well.

But still...

My sis and I got Ancestry DNA tests for my mom and dad. Though this was partly for selfish reasons. haha

My mom thinks she is Irish. But we know of no one in our family is was from Ireland. Granted, there is a lot of fog in my parents' backgrounds though. My mom's dad was a doorstep baby -- just dropped off at a nunnery. And my dad's dad was not really his bio-dad -- he was the product of an affair.

My sis and I are banking on my mom not being Irish at all. Then we can finally get her to drop the obsession with Irish stuff.


But back to the fishing gadget. I might tell a white lie. I could just say: "Dad, I was out in the canoe in rough weather and I flipped. The device was lost in the murky depths."

Another option is to give it to my BIL (he also likes fishing). He is a hoarder and will take almost anything. lol
Good luck with the ancestry stuff. You better be sure your ready for all options.
Also, even if she isn't Irish, it doesn't mean she will, or you have the right to force her to lose interest. I could go with the look at all the Irish on St. Patricks day thing, or I could go by a few people that I have known, whose genealogy was not pretty and would rather live like they belonged somewhere else.

On the lost in the water white lie, better be sure it isn't something he will just get you another one of.


Just tell your Dad that he doesn't fit into your minimalist life anymore, and dump him.

Or, you could try talking to him honestly. That could work too.

It also might not work. Giving can be done for many reasons, but one of them is of course selfish; THE GIVER like the way it makes THEM feel. I said for years don't buy me stuff and we kept fighting about it and I kept getting (censored). It took me walking things over to the trash a couple years in a row, to get the message across.

For Christmas, I just hope for a peaceful family meal (doesn't always happen), and hope we don't have to spend anymore in the hospital or watching someone die (done twice with family and this year with my four legged brother).

[Simplemind]

Does he live far away? Do you know where he bought it? Could you not simply exchange it for what you do use. You must need line, flies or something. Tell me you aren't hand fishing for Gods sake. It really isn't about the gadget anyway.

[Ultralight]

A man can sit in prison plotting the demise of those who put him there. But doing so is like swallowing a strong poison and hoping it kills your enemy.

This is good advice. We've largely buried the hatchet. But I still don't want the stuff.

[Ultralight]

May I ask if the DNA testing was something your folks wanted?

Interestingly... neither of them asked for it. My sis got it so she could disprove that my mom is Irish. And then hopefully be mercifully spared the non-stop Irish talk and Irish stuff. I mean, it is silly really. My mom thinks that anything good we do is because we are Irish. lol

"You kids drink plenty of water. That is because you're Irish!"

"Ultralite, you've got a good sense of rhythm because you're Irish."

"My daughter is a hard worker! That is because she is Irish."

"That spelling be your sister won in second grade-- what can I say? Irish are good spellers."


I mean, for god's sake, this is nutty as heck, right?!


My mom was quite leery of taking the DNA test, but my sis put on the pressure.

Though when my dad saw my mom taking the test he was intrigued genuinely; so my sis and I will test him too.

[Chicken lady]

So you forced your mother into something she didn't want that you believe she won't like, that can't be undone, exchanged, given away or thrown out, and you called it a gift?

Maybe your dad should have gotten you a "born to shop" tatoo. Wouldn't take up any space.

[Ultralight]

So you forced your mother into something she didn't want that you believe she won't like, that can't be undone, exchanged, given away or thrown out, and you called it a gift?

Maybe your dad should have gotten you a "born to shop" tatoo. Wouldn't take up any space.

Forced? Uh... really? There is a very big difference between pressuring someone to do something and forcing someone.

Think about it. They don't them the Armed Pressures. They call them the Armed Forces. Just an example...

Someone who is pressured can simply refuse. Like when a group of teens pressure another teen into smoking a cigarette. He could refuse the cigarette.

Besides, I was not even there. I gave my sis half the cost of the DNA test. She collected the sample, mailed it out, and will be receiving the results -- which she will then forward to my mom.

[Chicken lady]

Pressure is just force over area.

The stronger person always wins.

I notice that when your dad gave you the fish thingie you simply refused. (ultralight angler says "no thank you." refuses to touch gift.)

It's nice for you that you can justify your role in this even as you gloat over the prospect of getting revenge for all the Irish comments by exploding a world view your mother holds dear.

But I bet the lunar fish thing looks a lot kinder and more generous from your dad's viewpoint than your "gift" to your mom looks from yours. So on this one you get no sympathy here.

[Ultralight]

Pressure is just force over area.

I am not sure what you mean...


The stronger person always wins.

I respectfully disagree, in part. I spent my teens in Ju Jitsu (translation means "the gentle way"). I'd grapple much, much stronger opponents and beat them resoundingly on the regular. How? By using their strength against them or exploiting their tiniest weakness or by thinking 12 moves ahead of them.

Now, having strength helps but good technique is more important and decides the match.

My dad is quite clever. Since I was not there to receive the gift in person (I avoided my fam's holiday festivities) he gave it to my sis who gave it to me. My intention is to give it to my BIL and then reiterate to my dad that I need no gifts in the future (unless they are pay-offs of my student loans! lol).


It's nice for you that you can justify your role in this even as you gloat over the prospect of getting revenge for all the Irish comments by exploding a world view your mother holds dear.

But I bet the lunar fish thing looks a lot kinder and more generous from your dad's viewpoint than your "gift" to your mom looks from yours. So on this one you get no sympathy here.

I actually told my sis we should consider white lying to my mom if the results come back at zero Irish. Why? Because this might temporarily crush her. My thought was that we could tell her she was perhaps 10% Irish. That way when my mom starts going on and on about how we're Irish we could say, "Come on mom, you're only 10% and we're only 5%!"

But my sis brings up a good point: My mom is a grown woman. She should be able to handle the truth as such, especially about something so materially inconsequential.

My sis and I are grown ups too. So if my mom comes back 50% Irish or something ludicrous like that then we'll be eating crow. And we'll simply re-frame our arguments.

I personally think adults should do their best to avoid delusions of their own construction (and of others' construction). I am not perfect at this, but I put in my best efforts and try to do better at this each day.

[Williamsmith]

You have the choice to treat your parents in any manner you deem appropriate short of physical and mental abuse but ...if i were you, I'd be careful about the observations your girlfriend is front seat for because she might start wondering if she is getting the same treatment.....like little white lies, contrived excuses, word play and experiments with deeply held beliefs.

Now if she doesn't seem to be bothered by any of this.......you might find yourself taking a DNA test someday.

[Ultralight]

You have the choice to treat your parents in any manner you deem appropriate short of physical and mental abuse but ...if i were you, I'd be careful about the observations your girlfriend is front seat for because she might start wondering if she is getting the same treatment.....like little white lies, contrived excuses, word play and experiments with deeply held beliefs.

This whole conversation, your comments above in particular, are making me think about how my family members (myself included) are all rather mean and bitter toward each other. My sis was actually complaining when she came back from the fam festivities that my mom has just become so bitter and mean-spirited (much like my grandmother did). I see it too, I have seen it happening for a long time.

Maybe there is another way?

Here is the thing, and I told this to my girlfriend. If I don't have much respect for a person I tell them little white lies and/or give them contrived excuses because I really don't have time to deal with them and/or their dysfunction. But if I really respect someone then I will give them the truth, usually as tactfully as I can. And this is how I treat my girlfriend (and my previous romantic partners as well). I respect them, I am truthful with them, I am tactful as possible, and I let them know I tell white lies to people I don't have much respect for out of convenience.

As for deeply held beliefs, my gf and I tread lightly regarding certain things -- like religion. She questions my atheism and I question her religiosity, but we do so in a way that does not tick off the other. These are just discussions of ideas.


Now if she doesn't seem to be bothered by any of this.......you might find yourself taking a DNA test someday.

Oh, lawdy! I hope I never have to do that, but if I do then I hope it ain't mine! haha

[Chicken lady]

Ultralight, there are different forms of strength. I'm sure your sister didn't physically wrestle your mother to the ground and take a DNA sample.

But she clearly found an area in which your mother was weaker and applied force (pressure and leverage are both forms of force - physics, pressure is force over area, leverage is force using a vector I believe. I'm shakey on the math on that one)

I hope your family can find ways to be kinder to each other, but you can only control your own behavior.

I will post more on my mil on the other thread later, but incidentally, I posted looking for sympathy and appreciate that I got a call to reflection.

[Ultralight]

Ultralight, there are different forms of strength. I'm sure your sister didn't physically wrestle your mother to the ground and take a DNA sample.

I don't think it is "force" when a person can just say: "Nope."

Difference in opinions, perhaps.

[Chicken lady]

Definitely. In my opinion sometimes the other person makes it so difficult for you to say "nope" that you find yourself saying "yes" against your wishes or better judgement. That's how kids get pressured into smoking by friends. They don't have the inner strength to say no and suffer the consequences.

[Chicken lady]

For example - you don't want to spend money taking your girl friend on dates, but you are less willing to suffer the consequences of not doing it - that is you giving in to pressure from your girlfriend. How much pressure is required and how it is applied varies - leverage.

[Ultralight]

Definitely. In my opinion sometimes the other person makes it so difficult for you to say "nope" that you find yourself saying "yes" against your wishes or better judgement. That's how kids get pressured into smoking by friends. They don't have the inner strength to say no and suffer the consequences.

Wouldn't the cure be for them to cultivate some inner strength?

[freshstart]

The thing that really bothers me is that now I have to get rid of this thing in a way that will be acceptable if (no... when!) he asks me about it

Fishing is something one does, not something one has. I'd rather he just go fishing with me.

sell it on eBay or CL, earmark money earned a money from your dad and hang onto it, use it even in small amts the way you would've preferred to be gifted. Or stick it in your EF, whatever. I think the important thing (I confess I have not read the whole thread) is you want to spend time fishing with him. Does he even know that? I think most parents of adult children would love to hear you want to spend time on a special activity with them, I know I would. I just asked my teens for Christmas to go out to lunch with me one on one. There is nothing they could give me that trumps wanting time with them. I suspect this increases the older your child gets.

[Ultralight]

sell it on eBay or CL, earmark money earned a money from your dad and hang onto it, use it even in small amts the way you would've preferred to be gifted. Or stick it in your EF, whatever. I think the important thing (I confess I have not read the whole thread) is you want to spend time fishing with him. Does he even know that? I think most parents of adult children would love to hear you want to spend time on a special activity with them, I know I would. I just asked my teens for Christmas to go out to lunch with me one on one. There is nothing they could give me that trumps wanting time with them. I suspect this increases the older your child gets.

I have told him time and time again that we should just go fishing. He has gone twice. Keep in mind that I live like a 5 minute drive to a lake.

I actually think he gives gifts as a way to show he cares without having to put the time or words into it.

[razz]

Just an observation from reading the whole thread. The desire is for 'the other' in various scenarios to change in some way. Nothing else will do. Seems sad to me.

[Zoe Girl]

Interestingly... neither of them asked for it. My sis got it so she could disprove that my mom is Irish. And then hopefully be mercifully spared the non-stop Irish talk and Irish stuff. I mean, it is silly really. My mom thinks that anything good we do is because we are Irish. lol

"You kids drink plenty of water. That is because you're Irish!"



My sister and I want to do this, her MIL is crazy about being German. Everything is about being German! And my friend who is 1st generation American isn't as much into being German. We realized that FIL has never talked about his ancestry, probably no room in her being German!

[Ultralight]

Just an observation from reading the whole thread. The desire is for 'the other' in various scenarios to change in some way. Nothing else will do. Seems sad to me.

We don't want to change ourselves. After all, the other other often wants us to change.

[Ultralight]

My sister and I want to do this, her MIL is crazy about being German. Everything is about being German! And my friend who is 1st generation American isn't as much into being German. We realized that FIL has never talked about his ancestry, probably no room in her being German!

I think this phenomenon is caused by being brought up in a cultural void.

[iris lilies]

I understand the obsession with being Irish.

My obsession is on our Scottish ancestors. Which part of Scotland did they come from? What did they do there? Who is left there as a relative? And etc. Its all a big mystery since our immigrant ancestor left us no trace of the old country.

Meanwhile, we've got thorough documentation about our German ancestors in the way that only methodical Germans would document. Yet they are boring to me. I want the mystery of our ancestor Scots to be revealed.

Rev UL, We did the cheek swab thing years ago and have not managed to hook up with close Scottish relatives. we hold out hope.

[Ultralight]

I understand the obsession with being Irish.

My obsession is on our Scottish ancestors. Which part of Scotland did they come from? What did they do there? Who is left there as a relative? And etc. Its all a big mystery since our immigrant ancestor left us no trace of the old country.

Meanwhile, we've got thorough documentation about our German ancestors in the way that only methodical Germans would document. Yet they are boring to me. I want the mystery of our ancestor Scots to be revealed.

Rev UL, We did the cheek swab thing years ago and have not managed to hook up with close Scottish relatives. we hold out hope.

Any surprises in your cheek swab?

One of my friends from the old neighborhood was something like 2 percent African-American. He'll never hear the end of it.

I am fairly certain my family is just European -- Western, mostly; though I think it is likely there is Southern and Northern European in there too. But I sure hope no Irish! :)

[freshstart]

Reconciliation is possible without formal apology. Not certain......but possible. And from my perspective it is worth it a million times over.

A man can sit in prison plotting the demise of those who put him there. But doing so is like swallowing a strong poison and hoping it kills your enemy.

I agree with this, my dad was an SOB and my mom did nothing to stop it. He ended up on an antidepressant for pain and he was a changed man and I mean really, really changed man. When he skips a week, the old monster comes roaring back. he cannot really see the sea change in himself, he denies he was/is that man but he has obliquely apologized and shown over and over through action that he loves me, and will even occasionally say it. I forgive him, I believe he had good intentions (he pulled us out of abject poverty) and did the best with the limited parenting skills he had. Forgiving him freed me, even forgiving the violence, which he had to know was wrong. Learning to love him changed me. It took hard work in therapy but I reaped the benefits, not just him getting a "real" relationship with me. My brother has not forgiven him. My brother possesses the same deep seeded anger my father had, he is incredibly difficult to have a relationship with and he is unhappy. I'm no ball of joy just because I forgave my dad, but over the years it has helped and it has allowed me to allow him to be part of my children's lives. The man he was would never have been allowed near them.

just food for thought and your dad probably won't end up on a med that changes his entire personality, I was just lucky.

[freshstart]

I am so sick of hearing I am Irish and all that that means. I am actually half German, quarter French, quarter Irish. I was born ten minutes before St Patrick's Day. I have to eat corned beef and cabbage every damn year and I hate both. We only talk about being Irish, it's absurd. My dad says it's because my great-grandfather came here as a young immigrant and had to make a life for himself. Just like my 3 other great-grandparents. Ridiculous. To the point that they were Protestants and my grandmother converted to Catholicism for her marriage, she became the arch enemy but that was fine because above all else we are Irish.

[Ultralight]

I am so sick of hearing I am Irish and all that that means. I am actually half German, quarter French, quarter Irish. I was born ten minutes before St Patrick's Day. I have to eat for beef and cabbage every damn year and I hate both. We only talk about being Irish, it's absurd. My dad says it's because my great-grandfather came here as a young immigrant and had to make a life for himself. Just like my 3 other great-grandparents. Ridiculous. To the point that they were Protestants and my grandmother converted to Catholicism for her marriage, she became the arch enemy but that was fine because above all else we are Irish.

Preach it! Amen, sistah!

[JaneV2.0]

My parents joined an all-Irish social club because their best friends belonged. Our family name is one that could be Irish, but isn't. I always thought they were perpetrating low-level fraud :D until I found a fellow named Parker in the family tree who had come over from Ireland as an indentured servant. DNA testing shows I'm 3% Irish, so my parents have been vindicated and I'm free to enjoy corned beef and cabbage and warm green beer with supreme smugness on St. Patrick's day.

[Ultralight]

I just don't believe in racial or ethnic essentialism. You know?

Maybe the next time my mom goes on the Irish rant I'll say: "Maybe that is why there are so many alcoholics in the family."

[bae]

Any surprises in your cheek swab?


Mine came back "not quite human as we know it".

[Ultralight]

Mine came back "not quite human as we know it".

Haha! Perfect!

[Zoe Girl]

I am Danish and German (although I do want to do that genetic test thing). I am more German than Danish but we follow Danish customs because they are the only ones we have. My grandmother went back to Denmark to visit cousins when I was growing up, but the other side of the family stayed firmly in the US. So I have one recipe from my grandmother, an aebelskiver pan, and we do our Christmas on Christmas Eve. I totally skipped out on the roast goose tradition thank you!

My ex's family has the family tree back to 1000. It is crazy, my step-MIL wanted to put the girls in the DAR when she married in. I said no thank you, his family was here on one of the first boats and apparently were not as big of ass**s as John Smith but I don't feel any connection. I could just imagine my combat boot/mowhawk daughters show up at the DAR, not sure it would be the dress code they were looking for.

[Ultralight]

I admit to being a product of this cultural wasteland. After my parents' DNA ancestry tests come back I will know where my ancestors came from. But that doesn't have any real effect on who I am.

I am still just a Merkan, I suppose.

[bae]

Haha! Perfect!

Apparently 46 chromosomes is obsolete. Prepare to be assimilated.

[gmpg54]

Maybe somewhere in time she enjoyed the company of some Irish folks and traditions and she just liked it...they tend to be a jovial bunch.

[Ultralight]

Maybe somewhere in time she enjoyed the company of some Irish folks and traditions and she just liked it...they tend to be a jovial bunch.

She has never had an Irish friend that my sis or I have ever met. She lives in a town with 238 people in it -- all rednecks and pillbillies.

[Packratona!]

Does he come visit you? Would he see it in your house or notice it is not there?
You may be worrying about something that will never happen; has he ever asked you about any of the things in those boxes he gave you?
He may forget all about what he gave you.
Think about trying the gadget out ONCE; that way you can honestly tell him you tried it out, along with a minimal comment such as "It's amazing the gadgets people are inventing nowadays, isn't it?" then kind of lead into related questions such as what he thinks about how things have changed over his lifetime. Get him talking. He will love the attention.
Above all, remember that the respect and attention you show him while you have the opportunity to do so is of utmost importance.
You can ditch it asap after you use it once and have this conversation. Or you can just read the directions so you can tell him how it works (even though you never actually try it out). Not necessary to go into that you actually don't use it. I recommend Salvation Army as they don't have a high overhead and it is a true non-profit unlike Goodwill. Or you can just give it to anyone who will take it.
I always tell my family that whatever they can't use or don't like, of what I get them as gifts, to regift, sell at a garage sale, or drop off at Salvation Army. And I tell them upfront that is what I do. They are used to it.
Gift giving really is a pain; I have managed to minimize it greatly amongst my family at least. But still working on it. "I don't need anything so don't get anything for me unless it was free or a regift, and don't expect anything from me because I may not find anything by the side of road you will like, and also I am saving up for an international trip. Maybe I will bring you some nick nack back in the local market there".
If you have to go through this a few more years, just say thanks, Dad, and use it as an opportunity to interact with him, which is really all he wants. Or keep it around for a year then ditch it.

[Ultralight]

Does he come visit you? Would he see it in your house or notice it is not there?
You may be worrying about something that will never happen; has he ever asked you about any of the things in those boxes he gave you?
He may forget all about what he gave you.
Think about trying the gadget out ONCE; that way you can honestly tell him you tried it out, along with a minimal comment such as "It's amazing the gadgets people are inventing nowadays, isn't it?" then kind of lead into related questions such as what he thinks about how things have changed over his lifetime. Get him talking. He will love the attention.
Above all, remember that the respect and attention you show him while you have the opportunity to do so is of utmost importance.
You can ditch it asap after you use it once and have this conversation. Or you can just read the directions so you can tell him how it works (even though you never actually try it out). Not necessary to go into that you actually don't use it. I recommend Salvation Army as they don't have a high overhead and it is a true non-profit unlike Goodwill. Or you can just give it to anyone who will take it.
I always tell my family that whatever they can't use or don't like, of what I get them as gifts, to regift, sell at a garage sale, or drop off at Salvation Army. And I tell them upfront that is what I do. They are used to it.
Gift giving really is a pain; I have managed to minimize it greatly amongst my family at least. But still working on it. "I don't need anything so don't get anything for me unless it was free or a regift, and don't expect anything from me because I may not find anything by the side of road you will like, and also I am saving up for an international trip. Maybe I will bring you some nick nack back in the local market there".
If you have to go through this a few more years, just say thanks, Dad, and use it as an opportunity to interact with him, which is really all he wants. Or keep it around for a year then ditch it.

He visited a handful of times last year and the year before. So I expect the same this year.

Just last night he asked be about it on the phone. He is very excited about the gift he gave me that I don't want. haha

I am fairly certain he'll ask about it all the time. And if I give him attention about the gift then it will prompt him to give me more gifts.

I mean, last night on the phone he said: "Did you get the chance to try out your Xmas gift?!"

[freshstart]

By him asking if you used it yet, now part of this I can see from your dad's side, me being a mom to finicky teens. I don't like handing out gift cards or cash every year or for their total present. I like them to have something to open even if the odds are 50/50 of whether I nailed their taste. So I can sort of understand your parents feeling like you can't just come over and be given nothing. and this is a reflection on them, not you. They are holding themselves to a standard that is not appropriate for you but in their minds they are doing the 'right thing'.

just a guess of how they see it

[Ultralight]

Welp... Dad plopped another gift on me. Yesterday he gave me a small, high-powered flashlight. I did not ask for it. I never mentioned such a thing. And I already have a flashlight (I use it for night fishing).

So I think he is going to have to learn the hard way: No more gifts.

I am just going to immediately give them away. And when he asks, I will tell him so. I think at first it'll feel like a punch in the gut to him. But he'll learn.

[herbgeek]

I don' t understand why you seem to be so mean spirited towards both your parents. I understand you grew up in a hoarding household, but for your own sake you need to let it go.

Your mom takes great joy in thinking she's Irish (and now you've proved she is). You couldn't wait to prove her wrong, even though it affects you none. Your dad obviously wants a closer relationship with you and gives you small things he thinks will fit into your lifestyle, and you can't wait to do the equivalent of "punching him in the gut". He's being kind, and you just want to be mean in return.

Why?

[Ultralight]

I don' t understand why you seem to be so mean spirited towards both your parents. I understand you grew up in a hoarding household, but for your own sake you need to let it go.

Uh... seriously? Growing up in a hoard is a form of abuse. It is the kind of thing that follows you for life, to one degree or another. And while I am not perfect, I have done a lot to overcome. And I largely have. To call me mean-spirited is a gross exaggeration. Sometimes spiteful, yes. Mean-spirited? Puh-lease!

Oh, wise one... tell me how to "let it go." haha


Your mom takes great joy in thinking she's Irish (and now you've proved she is).

She is 20% Irish. But I'd actually say she is American.


You couldn't wait to prove her wrong, even though it affects you none.

Oh but it does affect me! She annoys me with it often.


Your dad obviously wants a closer relationship with you and gives you small things he thinks will fit into your lifestyle, and you can't wait to do the equivalent of "punching him in the gut". He's being kind, and you just want to be mean in return.

Let's be real for a minute. How does someone establish a closer relationship with someone? By showing up! Putting the time in! That is how it is done.

[catherine]

Uh... seriously? Growing up in a hoard is a form of abuse. It is the kind of thing that follows you for life, to one degree or another.

Yes, and living with alcoholism is similar, which was my experience. But for me, I know my parents loved me, and while they weren't perfect--one chose the streets over his family and the other had serial relationships with alcoholics--I am so grateful for the love they gave me, and my only regret is that I didn't take the opportunity to be kinder to them when they were alive.

[Ultralight]

Yes, and living with alcoholism is similar, which was my experience. But for me, I know my parents loved me, and while they weren't perfect--one chose the streets over his family and the other had serial relationships with alcoholics--I am so grateful for the love they gave me, and my only regret is that I didn't take the opportunity to be kinder to them when they were alive.

You're perhaps a more forgiving person than I.

[catherine]

You're perhaps a more forgiving person than I.

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself (and one that you can give away, too!)

[Ultralight]

Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself (and one that you can give away, too!)

That is a charming maxim, but how does it work in a practical sense?

[catherine]

That is a charming maxim, but how does it work in a practical sense?

I'm not sure what you mean. You look at your dad and his gift in a spirit of love and permission to be who he is and not who you want him to be, and the details will work themselves out.

[Ultralight]

...the details will work themselves out.

I don't take anything like this on faith. I need evidence to support such a claim.

But, let me be clear, if this methodology works for you -- they good on on! For real!

[Ultralight]

I'm not sure what you mean. You look at your dad and his gift in a spirit of love and permission to be who he is and not who you want him to be, and the details will work themselves out.

Here is a question to make us think:

Let's say I was a Hindu vegetarian and my dad gave me a stack of bloody T-bone beef steaks. Would you still say: "look at your dad and his gift in a spirit of love and permission to be who he is and not who you want him to be, and the details will work themselves out."?

[catherine]

Here is a question to make us think:

Let's say I was a Hindu vegetarian and my dad gave me a stack of bloody T-bone beef steaks. Would you still say: "look at your dad and his gift in a spirit of love and permission to be who he is and not who you want him to be, and the details will work themselves out."?

You're sensationalizing a little flashlight (huge stack of bloody T-bones).

When I was a strict vegetarian my mother-in-law made me bacon. I simply said "Thanks very much for making this for me, but I consider bacon to be an animal product, so I can't eat it." When she passed the stew, I passed it along to the person sitting next to me.

It doesn't have to be a struggle unless you choose to make it one.

As for the "evidence," you are refusing to even partake in the experiment. You want to see the steam but you won't turn on the heat.

[kib]

For me, my Dad's endless gifts of cartons of books I have no interest in are, yes, a gift of love even though they are unwanted in a material sense. But it took me a long time to let go of the angry ego that says it's not really a gift because it doesn't acknowledge who I am. Well, so what. It acknowledges that I'm someone he loves, even if the specifics of me, the individual, are a bit vague for him and this expresses what he would like to receive, which he perceives as something I would like to receive.

[Ultralight]

When I was a strict vegetarian my mother-in-law made me bacon. I simply said "Thanks very much for making this for me, but I consider bacon to be an animal product, so I can't eat it." When she passed the stew, I passed it along to the person sitting next to me.

I like this explanation!

[catherine]

I like this explanation!

;)

Hope I'm not too hard on you. I don't like to see you suffering!

[iris lilies]

Here is a question to make us think:

Let's say I was a Hindu vegetarian and my dad gave me a stack of bloody T-bone beef steaks. Would you still say: "look at your dad and his gift in a spirit of love and permission to be who he is and not who you want him to be, and the details will work themselves out."?

I dont see this through a faith prism because thats not my approah to life. I see it as common sense to get rid of as much negative feeling as possible, it is better for our mental health. To keep swirling around in my head my dislike and deep hurt in the end hurts me.

If you google " cognitive therapy " and "forgiveness" youll see lots of hits about exercises designed to lead one toward forgiveness for the sake of good mental health.

UL You keep bringing up examples of the same thing. Whether meat bearing fathers or alcoholic mothers, is about retraining your brain ( or heart some might say) to think of the other person and their gifts differently.

[Ultralight]

;)

Hope I'm not too hard on you. I don't like to see you suffering!

You are not too hard on me. And I am not suffering.

[catherine]

I dont see this through a faith prism because thats not my approah to life. I see it as common sense to get rid of as much negative feeling as possible, it is better for our mental health. To keep swirling around in my head my dislike and deep hurt in the end hurts me.

If you google " cognitive therapy " and "forgiveness" youll see lots of hits about exercises designed to lead one toward forgiveness for the sake of good mental health.

UL You keep bringing up examples of the same thing. Whether meat bearing fathers or alcoholic mothers, is about retraining your brain ( or heart some might say) to think of the other person and their gifts differently.

Beautifully said.

[freshstart]

I agree hoarding at a certain degree becomes a form of abuse.

This time did your dad show up to give you this gift? That's an attempt to put in the time, IMHO. Plus, again he's trying to get you something you might like that is small and related to your beloved fishing. Maybe he didn't know you have a fishing flashlight, maybe he doesn't grasp the concept of just calling you to hang. Many people in that generation don't do that with their kids, there has to be a purpose to the visit, i.e.: to bring you the flashlight.

If he was bringing you large, useless items just to make himself feel better, totally ignoring your simplicity, I'd say, yeah, he's a d***. But he doesn't seem to be doing that, he sounds like he is trying to reach out, trying to understand you in his limited way.

I agree you build relationships by putting in the time but I think lots of dads struggle with this. My own dad was honestly an unpredictably violent, mean man until in the 90s he started an antidepressant for pain and he became 180 degrees opposite. He lived close by when i married and had kids but even though he was a changed man, he was not comfortable coming by for a visit unless I initiated and my mother was present. But if I needed something fixed, he'd pop over, fix it and be ready to leave until I said how about a cold drink? Only then did he sit still long enough for a conversation. He was not good about putting the time in. If anyone said I would live with him voluntarily, I'd never have believed it. Now he's forced to put the time in because I had 76 MD appts last year (I don't count them, it was a tax thing) and he is my ride. That's a lot of hours talking, singing, and silence in the car. He's being forced to put in the time and we are much closer much to my surprise. What happened to me totally screwed up my life plan but it gave me some things I never had reason to expect, like a closer relationship with my dad. I sang American Pie with my dad in the car at 7, if someone said this would happen when I was 45, I would've said you haven't met my dad. The truth was I was the one who hadn't met my dad.

maybe you are getting a second chance and the price is a flashlight?

only you know your dad and what you believe to be his true intentions but sometimes they catch us on the sly opening up a whole new path to a different relationship.

[Ultralight]

...maybe you are getting a second chance and the price is a flashlight?

Meh... maybe I am not that interested, if I am being honest with myself.

[sweetana3]

My husband and I do not eat meat (four legged animals). My brother sent us a big gift from Omaha Steaks. We ate the wonderful things that we could and gifted away the rest. Our neighbors got the steaks, my motherinlaw got the porkchops and other friends got the other meats. Brother made a lot of people happy.

[Teacher Terry]

UA: you might be sorry down the road if you don't put in the time with your DAd and there will be no way to change it.

[freshstart]

UA, you talk about them too much to convince me you do not in some small way care, even if it's mostly negative. You did that nice Irish thing for your mom. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would like them to change and then you would have a better relationship? People rarely change. But your response can change and who knows what will happen with just that one change in response?

for years when I thought my father to be a cold, heartless, SOB and I could not fathom why this man ever had children, this quote got me through a lot of times when I was ready to say "F you, old man" and never see him again: stop going to the hardware store for butter. Every time he did not act the way I wanted a loving father to act, I thought about that statement. At that time, I was seeking something from him, that he just didn't "sell", so it didn't matter how many times I went into something expecting a loving response, I was expecting to find butter at the hardware store and that would never happen.



then he changed thus blowing that theory, but that was better living through chemistry. But honestly, that one statement I have used a lot in life.

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with FS. I have seen life long regrets over these types of things.

[Ultralight]

I agree with FS. I have seen life long regrets over these types of things.

I hoard regrets! ;)

[freshstart]

bwahahahaha

[ToomuchStuff]

UA: you might be sorry down the road if you don't put in the time with your DAd and there will be no way to change it.
On the other hand, sometimes you can't change people.