View Full Version : Co-opting Ethnic Identifiers
Unwieldy mouthful, but I couldn't come up with a better title.
I've been musing over the pc aspect of taking on something traditional to a culture other than your own. America is a melting pot, but we still have boundaries, and sometimes I don't know where the line is properly drawn. On another thread, Chicken Lady posted about loving the look of a sari but not wanting people to be offended, that she might be trying to pass as Indian since she isn't. The other day on NPR there was a bit about Otis Redding, and the tone of it seemed to suggest that there was something inauthentic about white people embracing his music, that they were somehow grasping for a tradition other than their own. I started posting recently on a forum where many people are clearly down and out although that's not the focus of the forum, and I feel like an imposter. Whether it's dreads or vision quests or kombucha, slanguage that is not familiar to you, or even wealth/class difference of implying an understanding of an economic situation that is not yours, this uneasy tightrope between respect, acceptance, empathy, and "stealing" or "posing".
This is just an open discussion about culture and authenticity. Are you frustrated as a white person shamed out of other cultural experiences? Are you frustrated as a non-white person stuck in your particular ethnicity box? Do you feel free to pick and choose without discomfort from everything you are drawn toward?
I missed Chicken Lady's sari comment, but interestingly, my DH gave me an Indian woman's "day dress"--an embroidered tunic top over bright yellow leggings--for my birthday. It was beautiful, and he had gotten it at an Indian clothing store up the street when I commented how much I loved Indian dress--but I was dismayed because I didn't feel I could wear it without being a poseur.
I remember as a child being SO disappointed when I saw or met ethnic Native Americans who were not wearing feathered headdresses and suede fringed jackets.
This is an interesting topic. I don't feel "shut out" of other cultural experiences, but OTOH, it calls to mind how important it is for us to be who WE are. I don't want to be disappointed in my race or culture--I'd never do what that white-dressed-as-black woman did in Seattle. I'm just an Ann Taylor-wearing WASP and I own that, and I hope that I continue to enjoy other people being themselves.
ETA: I also love it when my DH wears his kilt on special occasions--although second gen Scottish (if the mother is an immigrant, that's second gen, right?), I think he's "allowed" but when we went to Scotland and had a party to see the relatives there, my kids (third gen Scottish + their mother's lineage which is Irish/Scottish/English) they adamantly refused to wear kilts to the party because THEY felt like poseurs.
Ultralight
1-5-16, 12:53pm
Unwieldy mouthful, but I couldn't come up with a better title.
I've been musing over the pc aspect of taking on something traditional to a culture other than your own. America is a melting pot, but we still have boundaries, and sometimes I don't know where the line is properly drawn. On another thread, Chicken Lady posted about loving the look of a sari but not wanting people to be offended, that she might be trying to pass as Indian since she isn't. The other day on NPR there was a bit about Otis Redding, and the tone of it seemed to suggest that there was something inauthentic about white people embracing his music, that they were somehow grasping for a tradition other than their own. I started posting recently on a forum where many people are clearly down and out although that's not the focus of the forum, and I feel like an imposter. Whether it's dreads or vision quests or kombucha, slanguage that is not familiar to you, or even wealth/class difference of implying an understanding of an economic situation that is not yours, this uneasy tightrope between respect, acceptance, empathy, and "stealing" or "posing".
This is just an open discussion about culture and authenticity. Are you frustrated as a white person shamed out of other cultural experiences? Are you frustrated as a non-white person stuck in your particular ethnicity box? Do you feel free to pick and choose without discomfort from everything you are drawn toward?
This right here is a great topic!
I have a few thoughts:
1. Kombucha (what I call "garbage swill") is just wrong no matter who makes or drinks it!
2. This issue of co-opting ethnic identifiers brings me back to my mom and her Irish obsession. So frustrating!
3. Once I overheard my sis and BIL talking about me. The topic was about my fishing practices (only catching what I eat, how I dispatch the fish, etc.) and my simple living and my general attitude toward life. My sister said: "Jake is just... is just...like... he is Native American inside!" I'll admit I felt flattered when I heard that. But I don't wear moccasins or have long hair or go to powwows.
4. When I was a teenager I stumbled on Ice T's book The Ice Opinion and in that book he talks about breaking out of the script you have been given in life. He said he loved rock music and metal and that he surfed. He pointed out how these are not popular activities in the black community but that he did not care because both music and the ocean are for everyone. That had a profound effect on me. So I do what I like regardless of which demographic the item or practice is usually associated with.
I am a straight white guy. I love disco but I don't claim to be gay. I love Indian food but I don't claim to be Indian. I love foreign cinema but I don't claim to be a French intellectual. I love fishing but I don't claim to be a redneck. ;)
The best thing to do is be genuine about it and don't take credit for something that is not yours.
3. Once I overheard my sis and BIL talking about me. The topic was about my fishing practices (only catching what I eat, how I dispatch the fish, etc.) and my simple living and my general attitude toward life. My sister said: "Jake is just... is just...like... he is Native American inside!" I'll admit I felt flattered when I heard that. But I don't wear moccasins or have long hair or go to powwows.
Yes, I'd probably take that as a compliment, too! I think we should all seek our inner Native American.
If I were to maintain my cultural identity and step back a couple of hundred years or so, I guess I'd have to live in a cold, drafty place and eat a lot of meat. I'd probably have the adventurous spirit of the colonists, and I'd probably wear something along the lines of the Puritans, given my 10th great-grandmother died in prison in Salem, MA. Hmm...
Anybody have a spare feathered headdress?
rodeosweetheart
1-5-16, 1:44pm
Damn, I'd be living in the ancestral Calvert mansion in Yorkshire or in the New World, in Providence with my grandfathers who founded the colony.
Sounds a lot more opulent than how I live now.
I can wear brown lindsey woolsey; quite becoming. Or something in a nice plaid for that 19% Irish component.
Actually, sounds like how I dress now, like something out of Midsomer Murders. Guess I need to up my style game--a sari sounds like a nice improvement.
I think if you know your ethnic background, it feels weirder to venture out of it, like I am faking something, since I know where I came from. Maybe that's what Chicken Lady meant.
Damn, I'd be living in the ancestral Calvert mansion in Yorkshire or in the New World, in Providence with my grandfathers who founded the colony.
Sounds a lot more opulent than how I live now.
I can wear brown lindsey woolsey; quite becoming. Or something in a nice plaid for that 19% Irish component.
Actually, sounds like how I dress now, like something out of Midsomer Murders. Guess I need to up my style game--a sari sounds like a nice improvement.
I think if you know your ethnic background, it feels weirder to venture out of it, like I am faking something, since I know where I came from. Maybe that's what Chicken Lady meant.
rodeo, maybe you and I should go shopping together! Ditch the tartan and the fair isle sweaters and loafers! Let's go for the sari's--maybe even a nice tattoo!
rodeosweetheart
1-5-16, 1:53pm
Saris, yes, tattoos, never!
Saris, yes, tattoos, never!
One thing I find interesting in people is a contradiction between the cover and the book so to speak. Think Erin Brockovich. Or a nerdy guy dressed like Steven Tyler. Or a rocker dressed as Bill Gates.
I have always been anti-tattoo, anti- my kids dying their hair, getting nose rings, etc. My DD just got a tattoo, but she's 30 and certainly I have no say in the matter. My DH was NOT happy. I'm accepting of it. It's tasteful and it's her. I could probably be persuaded to get a tattoo--just because people wouldn't expect it.
If you were to break out of your mold, what would you look like?
rodeosweetheart
1-5-16, 2:10pm
Think Nascar watching, low cut blouses, bleached blonde hair, beer in hand, tattoos, kind of South Carolina Gamecock fan run amuck.
Think Nascar watching, low cut blouses, bleached blonde hair, beer in hand, tattoos, kind of South Carolina Gamecock fan run amuck.
That's great! Now I have a picture in my mind of the real you, rodeo! ;)
One of the things that is evident to me is that being "white bread" as I am makes other ways endlessly more fascinating. When I was little, I spent hours poring over books with Native American photos trying to emulate their face paintings and clothing (or lack thereof). In third grade, I unknowingly insulted the only black student in the whole school by asking why she didn't wear bones in her hair; that is how they were portrayed in cartoons of the day. My best friends in elementary school were both from large, Mexican families and I fell in love with their tight-knit family structure so different from mine. An Indian woman I work with recently brought me lovely dresses to consider wearing to DD's wedding, but I knew that wouldn't fly with the conservative new in-laws. I love to participate in all these various cultures as I can (food, friends, festivals, etc) but as you say, often feel stuck in my white box. On the other hand, I love meeting people who are complete surprises based on their apparent race/income level/culture.
Fortunately, being the insensitive person I am, I don't worry about taking over someone's culture. And you all can take my antique sari only when prying them out of my cold, dead hands.
Never! Love means never having to hide your Sari. :~)
Part of my issue is that I don't feel like I have traditions. I'm white bread but with parents from two different cultures- stiff as sticks and white as wonder on my father's side, "I am this but you are not" from my mother's 1st gen Danish immigrant side. They are at war over who "we" are, I've chosen to stay out of it, but it makes me feel very colorless. And still, I find myself uneasy with taking on any color at all. I do pick and choose ideas and foods, but somehow draw a line when it comes to personal appearance. My inner ethnicity has dreadlocks and likes gypsy skirts with boots and speaks like Victoria Beckham.
Yes, I'd probably take that as a compliment, too! I think we should all seek our inner Native American.
If I were to maintain my cultural identity and step back a couple of hundred years or so, I guess I'd have to live in a cold, drafty place and eat a lot of meat. I'd probably have the adventurous spirit of the colonists, and I'd probably wear something along the lines of the Puritans, given my 10th great-grandmother died in prison in Salem, MA. Hmm...
Anybody have a spare feathered headdress?
Hahaha! That's pretty much what I do now, at least by SLN standards. I refuse to emulate anything about the Puritans from their drab clothing to their rigid, uptight beliefs, even though I partially spring from them.
And that Dolezal poseur was from Spokane, I believe. Far, far away from here. I don't think her act would have gone on as long as it did in a city with more than a tiny minority population.
If we didn't all borrow from each other's cultures, it would be a boring, boring world. If someone has the hair for dreadlocks, how do we know their ancestors didn't wear them, no matter their color? What if you married into an Indian family? Could you wear a salwar kameez then? What if your husband really, really liked you to? It's an interesting conundrum; you'll be criticized regardless. So I'd say, do what suits you and deal with the fallout.
I came uncomfortably close to being a stripper once...(Somebody cut that woman off!) I had a bit of a wild side.
Actually that little pigtail thing the king of Denmark had was something called a Polish Plait, one big sticky dreadlock in the back. Possibly my next ethnically-correct fashion update ...or not ... maybe I'm just blaming my blandness on my ethnicity when in reality I'm just bland!
I don't believe in ethnic identifiers, unless business casual is ethnic. I plan to retire soon and when I do, I'm considering biker chic.
In my youth, people routinely identified me as Southern European, Middle Eastern, Jewish, Native American... I'm baffled as to why.
Never! Love means never having to hide your Sari. :~)
Ha!! I just may make that into a bumper sticker! It would go over well in my neck of the woods.
In my youth, people routinely identified me as Southern European, Middle Eastern, Jewish, Native American... I'm baffled as to why.
You must be a very swarthy Puritan.
I remember reading about a Canadian University that terminated a yoga class on the grounds that it was a "cultural appropriation". I don't agree that cultures should be treated as brands, where you can inherit superior rights. Nobody owns any particular art form, fashion or cuisine. In fact, I believe the strongest, most interesting societies are composed of omnivorous mongrels.
You must be a very swarthy Puritan.
:laff:
:idea: Thinking further about it, the only thing I can think of is that I have dark (hazel) eyes. My only distinguishing characteristic is dimples.
... Nobody owns any particular art form, fashion or cuisine. In fact, I believe the strongest, most interesting societies are composed of omnivorous mongrels.
I couldn't agree more. Artists--including designers--borrow all the time.
IshbelRobertson
1-5-16, 5:24pm
Well, I am a proud Scot. Immersed in my nation's culture. Was a highland dancer until I was about 19 (and have the medals to prove it!). Also played the pipes until I was about 30. Studied Scots history (still ongoing), was involved in Scottish politics for a long time, too.
We have lived in various places around the globe where we absorbed culinary and cultural info.
I was given a sari when I was a student by an Indian woman, who taught me how to make genuine curries. A shalwaar khameez by a Pakistani friend, who taught me her cooking style.
Have I appropriated their culture? Nope, I don't believe so.
Never! Love means never having to hide your Sari. :~)
Part of my issue is that I don't feel like I have traditions. I'm white bread but with parents from two different cultures- stiff as sticks and white as wonder on my father's side, "I am this but you are not" from my mother's 1st gen Danish immigrant side. They are at war over who "we" are, I've chosen to stay out of it, but it makes me feel very colorless. And still, I find myself uneasy with taking on any color at all. I do pick and choose ideas and foods, but somehow draw a line when it comes to personal appearance. My inner ethnicity has dreadlocks and likes gypsy skirts with boots and speaks like Victoria Beckham.
But that's my family of origin, too, white bread middle class in the middle of the country in the middle of the century. I'm sure people can relate to my desire for some spice.
To this day I remember eating pork fried rice at the "international food festival" thingie 46 years ago in Des Moines, Iowa. It was a revelation. Since then I've been angling to get to a place where foods, buildings, and culture reflect a depth that doesn't exist in small town middle America life. Sure we had some Victorian buildings, but the only ethnic food back then was Italian and fast food Mexico.
We also embrace our Scots history since that is more interesting to me than any number of other European influences. My Scottish obsession started in my teens with Scottish Baronial architecture, there is nothing else like it. Small, perfect fairy-tale castles, human scale, charming as hell.
Chicken lady
1-5-16, 6:37pm
So iris lily, do you wear your saris?
I'm a little more Heinz 57 than white bread. Swarthy puritan maybe. My mother's family is English and scottish. My father's is Scottish on one side and welsch/damnedifiknow on the other. Last name is English. His "English" grandfather looks like a full blooded Native American in photos. I went to an Edward Curtis exhibit and spotted a lot of people who looked a lot like specific relatives - including my daughter and brother - in his paintings.
Lately my brother apparently looks more "Arabic" he shaved off his curly beard and makes a point of wearing short sleeves and showing off his watch tan line when he travels - often - for work. He was tired of all the extra attention. We both tan dark and someone once asked my fair green eyed mother if we were adopted internationally. My hair has lightened to dark brown as I've aged though, where his has stayed nearly black.
My husband's parents did that genetic thing - his father is basically English, but his mom is all over western and eastern Europe and Asia. She claims English and German and looks it. But her father was a bastard and the rumor is his father was a Romani gypsy. He looks it.
The blender produced ds who arrived looking like a blue eyed blond china doll and just got larger and grew an English aristocratic nose, one blue eyed dd who started out with blonde hair that darkened to a mousy brown, and one dd who got my coloring and even thicker hair.
The hair drives her nuts. It's been long, short, straightened, curled, cornrowed... She actually called me from LA overjoyed once because she found a salon where they knew what to do with her hair and she looked amazing - the salon was Indian. Complete with Bollywood movies while you waited.
ToomuchStuff
1-5-16, 8:30pm
Maybe someone can explain to me what is my culture? On one side, I have a family history that was recorded by a relative that died when I was six. That history, goes back to at least the 1600's, and I am sure through marriages, cultures merged, and the USA formed. On the other side, an act of violence created a grandparent and unfortunately I learned way more then I ever wanted or should have.
I hear about "native American" and there is some in my family, that one has to draw out to figure out if it is in the blood side, the marriages in/adoptions, or the 1/2 relative sides. Yet that term itself is a misnomer. America isn't a country, but a continent, where we have had other cultures that have crossed over land that no longer exists, and spread through it. Were their natives here before the first settlers? That is a problematic term, the same way that race is when referring to ones skin color. "That's racist", I am human, what are you?
Growing up, I was told that America is a melting pot. That was supposed to be its strength. You did have area's in the community, that the Germans, the Polish, the Italian's, etc. would settle together, and that was so they had "like" others to share history and traditions with. But they still blended with and visited others and as a whole we came together in times of "national crisis", as an example WW2. (remember how that generation would talk about the different area's of town, with pride, but they united on the US verses Them of the war times)
We were/are supposed to be able to learn and take the best of others cultures and improve and expand ourselves, although sometimes some take the worst as well.
I had a friend who I haven't seen in years, that grew up learning other languages. It has been years since I heard anything about him as his job was in high end law enforcement and he passed others cultures as a native, from living there and learning the languages. The last time I saw him was on TV in a air marshall training film where they covered most of the faces (after 9/11). In some instances, being able to use other cultures, has an advantage and others tend to get insulted that we don't at least try to learn their languages.
I'm considering biker chic.
I read that as the other word, and laughed thinking of you in a shirt that says I am the b**** that fell off.:laff:
All in all, this reminds me of lyrics from the band:
Ya take what ya need and ya leave the rest,
But they should never have taken the very best
Well I am a Brit Canadian. I can't think of one thing I want to wear really from this culture or one thing that is spectacular to eat. So I would happily adopt, not co-opt, something from some other culture. Sometimes that looks plain stupid (cowboy people at the Rodeo who have never heard a horse fart), but sometimes it looks just right (special velvet fairy clothes that are probably sort of Celtic) I really don't care all that much, but if you cross the line someone is bound to speak up.
If I could come across as anything it would be like those women on the ads for great retirement investments, slim, silver haired, discreet jewellry, barefoot and laughing on some private dock by the family cabin. What ethnic group does that represent? oh I know, the filthy rich.
iris lilies
1-5-16, 10:21pm
So iris lily, do you wear your saris? ....
oh no. I keep them folded in a pile. But
I hope to hang them over curtain rods we will install this month.
I only have one family recipe, a danish pastry one, so that is the extent of my authentic Danish-ness. Other than that I am kinda basic white. Not very interesting really.
However I do not like 'white food', midwestern fare that I was raised with. I like Indian food and spice and fresh vegetables and really good heavy bread. I have been drinking chai since I lived in Boulder about 30 years ago at little restaurants with tasty buffets. I also figure that I can wear my cowgirl boots since I have lived in Colorado long enough (and they are soooo cute).
I can kinda understand the issue of appropriation, there are ways that can be disrespectful. I don't think I am doing it but I guess I am open to feedback.
Williamsmith
1-6-16, 4:31am
I find myself comfortably in my skin. I'm not interested in other ethnicity. I am not interesting either I guess.
So I would happily adopt, not co-opt, something from some other culture.
What's the difference between adopting and co-opting?
What's the difference between adopting and co-opting?
I just say "enjoy" and/ or "do" something from another culture.
Dad was Norwegian (2nd gen) and Mom is English (6th or 7th or something gen). I occasionally want to just stomp my feet and loudly proclaim, "I am $&#^ing interesting!" But I'm not, so I'm up for mixing spice from just about any source with my milk toast and lutefisk. I've been lucky enough to spend most of my adult life surrounded by people who were from all kinds of places that actually are interesting. Without fail they have been generous with their cultural traditions and its been wonderful. At some level I'm sure that was by design, but no one seemed to mind. My wife adds French, Irish, German and Spanish to the mix so our kids are officially Euro-mutts and their culture is what we created at home without much regard to any tradition we inherited.
What's the difference between adopting and co-opting?
Gratitude?
Gratitude?
Sort of like properly attributing your sources in a term paper?
What's the difference between adopting and co-opting?
Re adopting/co-opting of African American hairstyles:
IMHO, the writer Anne LaMott adopted it; the former NAACP director Rachel Doleful co-opted it.
Maybe it has to do with the gratitude aspect that Gregg mentioned and a measure of sincerity and honesty (I like the attributing the source analogy).
Re adopting/co-opting of African American hairstyles:
IMHO, the writer Anne LaMott adopted it; the former NAACP director Rachel Doleful co-opted it.
Maybe it has to do with the gratitude aspect that Gregg mentioned and a measure of sincerity and honesty (I like the attributing the source analogy).
Your honesty distinction makes sense to me. When Elizabeth Warren claimed Cherokee ancestry to help advance her academic career, that was co-opting. When I dine at Szechuan Palace, I'm adopting.
I could go with the honesty idea, too. An appreciation of the experience rather than an analysis of the potential advantage.
I don't know if this is realistic or it's racist, but to me ... ok, an example. This baby girl is born in the ghetto. She's got drugs, she's got crime, she's got a lousy school district, and her brother's in a gang. But on a good day, she's got awesome braided hair, a tradition passed down to her from her mom and grandma. Something that's hers, a little patch of sun where she shines. And then Bo Derek comes along with the perfect body and the white skin and the multi-million dollar bank account and says oh, cute, I want that too. Where does imitation cease to be flattery and become more like stepping on someone else's small success to get even further ahead?
Where does imitation cease to be flattery and become more like stepping on someone else's small success to get even further ahead?
I can't see myself being offended or diminished by a celebrity, or anyone for that matter, copying my style.
Isn't there a very real sense that we all benefit from and enjoy the small and large successes of others in virtually every moment of our lives? From my first cup of coffee this morning to the quilt I will crawl under tonight, I am indebted to people of other cultures and other times.
What if Ann Taylor and sensible shoes suddenly became all the rage with junior high bad girls, or young prostitutes? Thereby shifting the public perception of your style from classy conservative to Teen Trash? What if, I'm saying, the badge of your conservatism was suddenly re-branded by a different group? I'm still not sure it has the same impact if your group is the group on top - I remember all the fake pearls in the 80s, doubt high society was too put out about that, but if your group's not on top ...
I dunno. I think Chicken Lady summed it up for me in her original post, "it seems rude."
iris lilies
1-6-16, 5:17pm
What if Ann Taylor and sensible shoes suddenly became all the rage with junior high bad girls, or young prostitutes? Thereby shifting the public perception of your style from classy conservative to Teen Trash? What if, I'm saying, the badge of your conservatism was suddenly re-branded by a different group? I'm still not sure it has the same impact if your group is the group on top - I remember all the fake pearls in the 80s, doubt high society was too put out about that, but if your group's not on top ...
I dunno. I think Chicken Lady summed it up for me in her original post, "it seems rude."
It's an interesting topic, and I suppose I could agree that some cultural appropriations are rude, thoughtless, or primarily money grubbing. Fashion designers do it all the time.
I remember when Paul Simon got boatloads of shit for his cultural appropriation of African music during his African phase. God knows, there are few more liberal than Paul and he made obsequious gestures to compensate for his fauxpas.
But so much of it cultural appropriation is otherwise--a act of flattery to take on another culture's cool stuff. Mimicry is flattery. Also in some cases its an act to save a culture when the culture itself doesn't appreciate its own heritage. Plenty of objects d'art from ancient cultures are sold off to rich Westerners who value them, apparently more than those in the culture where the art originates. I know that I love my saris (important to bring this discussion back around so saris, haha!) but they are insignificant to those in India who are selling them off. Maybe they are as a whole insignificant, but I would think that millions of vintage silk saris are a cultureal instituion, and at some point is the selling continues, there will be more in the Western Hemisphere than in the Eastern Hemisphere.
I've also seen cultures claim things as their own when they really are not. Frugality for instance. I've seen African American writers claim is as their culture. Well, what about the "thrifty Scots?" What about Depression Babies? Color me skeptical that any one culture owns this.
Good ideas have legs, in other words.
I think this topic is so interesting! I love looking at gorgeous saris and many other eye-popping fabrics and costumes. But I can appreciate and love something without owning/wearing it myself. If I'm dressing as my authentic self, I'm wearing denim cutoffs, sneakers and a baseball t-shirt. That's just me.
What if Ann Taylor and sensible shoes suddenly became all the rage with junior high bad girls, or young prostitutes? Thereby shifting the public perception of your style from classy conservative to Teen Trash? What if, I'm saying, the badge of your conservatism was suddenly re-branded by a different group? I'm still not sure it has the same impact if your group is the group on top - I remember all the fake pearls in the 80s, doubt high society was too put out about that, but if your group's not on top ...
I dunno. I think Chicken Lady summed it up for me in her original post, "it seems rude."
There's a restaurant near me called The Tilted Kilt and it's like the Scottish version of Hooters. The kilts are not the kind my granny wore if you know what I mean. So, they co-opted very conservative dress and turned it into a sextaurant uniform. Am I upset? Not at all--as long as my DH doesn't insist upon taking me there.
Shoot--I posted a picture and then was too embarrassed by it to leave it in. Google it if you want to see a nice tartan co-opted.
rodeosweetheart
1-6-16, 7:24pm
There's a restaurant near me called The Tilted Kilt and it's like the Scottish version of Hooters. The kilts are not the kind my granny wore if you know what I mean. So, they co-opted very conservative dress and turned it into a sextaurant uniform. Am I upset? Not at all--as long as my DH doesn't insist upon taking me there.
Shoot--I posted a picture and then was too embarrassed by it to leave it in. Google it if you want to see a nice tartan co-opted.
The picture I Googled looked like the bikinis we used to wear when we were 15, with the addition of breast implants.
Chicken lady
1-6-16, 7:37pm
So I did cornrow my white kid's hair.
and I eat in Indian restaurants whenever possible! In fact, dh and I gave just recently "earned our place" in our new favorite vegetarian one. The way it usually goes around here if the restaurant is good is, the first visit they seat you near the door or in the back in what I call "the white people section" and think you are lying about how much spice you want in your food. They peek out of the kitchen to see if you are dying...
if if you keep coming back and behave yourselves, they eventually give you the heat you asked for and sometimes let you sit with everyone else (everyone else generally being Indian families.)
i guess the the thing with the saris is that I don't think I have ever seen a non-Indian woman wearing one, so I feel like I would be using someone else's traditional dress as a costume, even if I just wore it as a regular day thing.
iris lilies
1-6-16, 7:42pm
There's a restaurant near me called The Tilted Kilt and it's like the Scottish version of Hooters. The kilts are not the kind my granny wore if you know what I mean. So, they co-opted very conservative dress and turned it into a sextaurant uniform. Am I upset? Not at all--as long as my DH doesn't insist upon taking me there.
Shoot--I posted a picture and then was too embarrassed by it to leave it in. Google it if you want to see a nice tartan co-opted.
I disagree that they co opted Scottish heritage.
They co opted Catholic school girl garb, which was referencing classic Scottish kilt wear. There are many a film about that, both porn and art house.
Let me just say I "co-opt" a variety of ethnic foods every chance I get. :laff:
Like LDAHL, I'm thankful for all the disparate contributions I benefit from.
What if Ann Taylor and sensible shoes suddenly became all the rage with junior high bad girls, or young prostitutes? Thereby shifting the public perception of your style from classy conservative to Teen Trash? What if, I'm saying, the badge of your conservatism was suddenly re-branded by a different group? "
OMG that happened to the punks! I recall being told I dressed the way I did due to peer pressure, however no one went to see all the matching moms in pleated khakis at the mall and said they were dressing that way due to peer pressure. Kinda wandering off topic.
I like the adopt vs co-opt. I have a dreadlocked white son. He just likes his hair, and sometimes he knows that black people don't like that he has dreads but overall he doesn't care that much. He isn't trying to be anything other than who he is, and maybe try to be a little cool. But I recall when I dressed 'different' it was about trying to find my tribe of people rather than be sucked up into the average white assumption. Now that I look more 'normal' I deal with another set of assumptions. Like that I eat meat and drink socially and watch popular TV shows and am christian. So sometimes I really want to change my look (I have always loved Annie Lamott's dreads and wanted them too) just so I don't have to explain that I don't eat at McDonalds and my vacation is a silent retreat,
Well, my parents adopted another culture to the point where I don't culturally feel like a Caucasian North American, though that is what I look like. My mother does wear saris, though mostly to the temple and such, not usually to the grocery store. Interesting topic about adopting versus co-opting. Are you doing something because you think it's cool or because it fits your personality? Do you think what you are doing is the ONLY way or do you admit that your involvement is just your understanding or take on a vast culture? I sometimes get annoyed by certain comments and conversations. Hinduism has more variation than Christianity; it's not one simple thing. There are hundreds of types of "curry". I didn't pick my name or my parents. Just because I'm white doesn't mean I am Christian or celebrate Christmas.
I'm much more comfortable being the white minority in any situation. My childhood has given me a diverse perspective but also means I don't fit into any culture really.
Williamsmith
1-7-16, 12:44am
My parents definitely discouraged co-opting ethnic anything. To do so would get you shunned. For instance, it was okay to have a Catholic friend but not a Catholic girlfriend. That could lead to a mixed marriage with cultural differences. No black friends period. But the house had African furniture and art gifted by missionaries. Indian and Arabian cultures were strange. Push starts and pull starts. Mexicans are lazy. Eat their kind of food and you become like them.
I had no cross culture experiences until I went to college. By that time, I was just looking around like I got dropped off on Mars. So I picked out another gf with the same values as mine and stuck to my culture. And I kept my prejudices which keeps my life simple and angst free. Just leave me alone and I won't mess with your lifestyle.
Wow William, I can see how that would affect. I think a big influence for me was living in Oakland CA when I was very young. I don't remember that much of it but my parents would not allow any talk about 'those other people'. One of my first clear memories was drinking green tea on a field trip to China Town. We had a bigger variety of food there too, I imagine Mexican style food. I do recall after we moved to Michigan I thought it was very white, when we finally found a real Mexican restaurant we would drive a couple towns over to go there. Then all the Indian spices captured my attention immediately, the first exposure was clove cigarettes.
So I am not sure if anyone believes in reincarnation but I am sure I was not a midwestern white person last time!
Good ideas have legs, in other words.
That's very true. Go back far enough, and pretty much everything came from somewhere else. Assigning "ownership" seems like a fool's errand.
My parents definitely discouraged co-opting ethnic anything. To do so would get you shunned. For instance, it was okay to have a Catholic friend but not a Catholic girlfriend. That could lead to a mixed marriage with cultural differences. No black friends period. But the house had African furniture and art gifted by missionaries. Indian and Arabian cultures were strange. Push starts and pull starts. Mexicans are lazy. Eat their kind of food and you become like them.
I had no cross culture experiences until I went to college. By that time, I was just looking around like I got dropped off on Mars. So I picked out another gf with the same values as mine and stuck to my culture. And I kept my prejudices which keeps my life simple and angst free. Just leave me alone and I won't mess with your lifestyle.
Your post makes me think of an ongoing argument I had with MIL. I loved her dearly, but she had this very strange (in my mind) notion of who and who should not co-opt your religion. I think many of us would agree that religion should transcend ethnic and cultural differences, but she was a long-time member of a Presbyterian church. She hardly EVER went--maybe an odd holiday--but when she did go, she would complain because compared to back in the 60s and 70s when she went more often, there were now a lot more blacks in the pews. Her common refrain leaving church was, "Why don't they go to their own church? They have their own church!" (I guess meaning AME or Baptist). It drove me CRAZY!! I once challenged her on the point for hours, and I guess loudly, because my 7 year old daughter asked me to quiet down.
So--for those of us who are white, would we be co-opting religion if we went to a Baptist church made up of mostly Black congregants? Can you even co-opt religion??
ETA: I have to share the epilogue on this story. When my MIL died, the funeral director asked us who we wanted to perform the funeral service. Of course we said the pastor of the same Presbyterian church. The funeral home director told us that the pastor that my MIL had known had recently retired, and there was a new pastor. The new pastor was.. yup--an African American woman. Because we didn't know her (and because my husband and brother didn't want their mother haunting them), they decided to have our local pastor perform the ceremony.
With a huge amount of class, however, the black pastor attended the services.
So--for those of us who are white, would we be co-opting religion if we went to a Baptist church made up of mostly Black congregants? Can you even co-opt religion??
Paging Kestra!
So--for those of us who are white, would we be co-opting religion if we went to a Baptist church made up of mostly Black congregants? Can you even co-opt religion??
I don't truly think so, I consider myself Buddhist and the Sri Lankan Buddhist community has been very welcoming when we did things together. They have a local nun in the Theravadan tradition and the nun I work with is also Theravadan so it is nice. We actually had 3 nuns at the last event! However in the case of a Black church there is so much community and culture that it would be an interesting process. Like I am waiting for when black couples adopt non-black children. A lot of it is intent, are you going to that church because they have the message and community you are looking for? I would hope it would be welcoming but I could see some potential for awkwardness.
On that note my son has a good friend who plays in the church band every week. I know he has invited my son and his girlfriend to come listen because they all went to the art high school together. My son says that he would feel weird as the 2 white people in the black church, especially since not all black people he knows are comfortable with his dreads. This friend's grandmother used to just stare and shake her head, she really didn't know how to make sense of T.
Anne Lamott has written of her experience attending a predominantly black church. With dreadlocks, even.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I actually believe that's true more often than not. If so, then those that are being flattered need to quit being offended because someone else thinks they're cool. But its so much easier, safer and more insulating to just be offended by everything and everyone these days.
iris lilies
1-14-16, 10:07am
There's a restaurant near me called The Tilted Kilt and it's like the Scottish version of Hooters. The kilts are not the kind my granny wore if you know what I mean. So, they co-opted very conservative dress and turned it into a sextaurant uniform. Am I upset? Not at all--as long as my DH doesn't insist upon taking me there.
Shoot--I posted a picture and then was too embarrassed by it to leave it in. Google it if you want to see a nice tartan co-opted.
The CEO of this restaurant was on that reality show,about CEO's. He is a giant, sexy man.
IshbelRobertson
1-14-16, 2:04pm
Well, I'd be upset!
I think dreads look best on really gorgeous people. Some of my friends have dreads and they love em, but I don't think it is the best look for them. That said, it is their hair and their business. I don't consider dreads really belonging to anyone.
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 2:38am
There is a a groups people in this area called The Rainbows and they are known for trespassing on sacred Indian sites and performing pseudo-Indian rituals. They often claim to be shaman and will share their enlightment with you, for a fee.
I think this is the baldest example of cultural appropriation.
These white folks, their ancestors committed genocide against the Indians. There is just no excuse.
Williamsmith
1-16-16, 5:44am
Oh the evil white folks. What has history forgotten that the Earth hasn't for all races?
In America, we really don't have an old culture of our own like most other countries. Plus, we've encouraged every culture to come here. So it's inevitable that we should take on/appreciate some of the other cultures' ways/dress/food.
I know a fellow who is studying to be a shaman. So I guess he is into it. I don't imagine he will have any special powers when he is done, but he is a very nice human being and if being a shaman helps him and anyone else I say go for it.
Also I am a white person. I didn't kill any indigenous people. Does that mean I have to apologize for everything any white person ever did and never ever adopt any of their customs or ideas? This doesn't make sense. Cultures have overtaken cultures throughout history and taken, adapted, changed customs and rituals as they liked. I am not big on one group taking over another, but the world never asked my permission to do this and never will. time marches on.
If you want to pay homage to some ideas, philosophies and rituals of another group, and you appreciate them and find beauty in them, what is wrong with that?
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 4:32pm
"I didn't kill any indigenous people. Does that mean I have to apologize for everything any white person ever did and never ever adopt any of their customs or ideas?"
You don't have to apologize for everything every white person did. But you do have to recognize that you are member of a privileged group.
“You have your education.
You have your white skin, in a country where that means everything.
Even the resources of your well-fed body mark you out as different.
How dare you think you can become one of them?
Privilege cannot be undone, once it has been conferred.” - Hilary Mantel, A Change of Climate
It is wrong to profit off of the oppressed.
If people truly want to pay homage, they can give back the sacred lands and artifacts belonging to other cultures.
These white folks, their ancestors committed genocide against the Indians. There is just no excuse.
I know a lot of white folk whose ancestors arrived here after the genocide had happened, and often from places completely uninvolved. Assuming there is some sort of blood-guilt, are these guilty just because of their skin color, since their ancestors weren't in on the fun?
Or are you just hanging them out to dry because of the albedo of their skin?
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 6:01pm
Or are you just hanging them out to dry because of the albedo of their skin?
Pretty much.
To be white mean to belong to a certain class. It's not a matter of guilt, it's a matter of entitlement.
ApatheticNoMore
1-16-16, 6:18pm
It's probably in many circumstances rude to co-op ethnic identifiers. Rude, that is all. Not the root of all evil, just ill mannered.
But white is now a class? Exactly what class are homeless white people (oh there are plenty of homeless white people). What class is some dirt poor white Appalachian?
And there is NO guilt in being white, none whatsoever. However there is *often* privilege which isn't the same thing as guilt at all - it isn't' even a conscious choice (often ... but the dirt poor white Appalachian doesn't have much).
And at a certain point I'm just F symbolism, symbolism itself is so elitist and privileged it makes me sick. Because you know what makes me angry? That native Americans (throughout the Americas really but in the U.S. as well) have to try to defend their land against environmental destruction right here and now, these people are still being F-ed over horribly to this day (and also are mostly living in poverty), while meanwhile most people probably hear less about such things than unreal symbolic fights like sports team names. As if the only thing that mattered was the symbolic victory.
Gardenarian
1-16-16, 7:27pm
Yeah, class was probably not the right word. And I agree that there is no guilt in being white, but there is entitlement and privilege.
And absolutely right about the native Americans being on the front lines in the environmental wars. The things the "news" doesn't cover.
our news in Canada is starting to cover a lot more.
I know a lot of white folk whose ancestors arrived here after the genocide had happened, and often from places completely uninvolved. Assuming there is some sort of blood-guilt, are these guilty just because of their skin color, since their ancestors weren't in on the fun?
Or are you just hanging them out to dry because of the albedo of their skin?
We're whitey, so according to the white privilege/BLM folks, we're eeevvvilll. And to those folks, I flip the bird.
Williamsmith
1-16-16, 9:55pm
Today's privileged white male dies at a younger age than any other race. It is the only demographic that has experienced a jump in mortality rates and that of 134%. All other races have improved their mortality rates. And this not due to over indulgence or inactivity and obesity. This is largely due to depression, drug and alcohol abuse and suicide.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/01/05/black-americans-have-fewer-years-to-live-heres-why
While true that mortality rates are getting worse for white men they still aren't dying as young as black people.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/01/05/black-americans-have-fewer-years-to-live-heres-why
While true that mortality rates are getting worse for white men they still aren't dying as young as black people.
What happens when you factor out the black abortion rate, and the black-on-black homicide rate?
Perhaps banning inner city poverty would be a start?
Are abortions even included in mortality rates?
We could also factor out the fact that infant mortality rates are twice as high for black people...
I was simply pointing out that williamsmith's made up statistic was inaccurate.
Williamsmith
1-17-16, 3:41am
Are abortions even included in mortality rates?
We could also factor out the fact that infant mortality rates are twice as high for black people...
I was simply pointing out that williamsmith's made up statistic was inaccurate.
Google and research Princeton economists Ann Case And Angus Deaton published by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences for proof that the ascertion was based on educated observation of data and not a made up statistic. Just because an ascertion does not fit ones world view does not make it made up unless a persons world viewis based on bias and ignorance.
Google and research Princeton economists Ann Case And Angus Deaton published by the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences for proof that the ascertion was based on educated observation of data and not a made up statistic. Just because an ascertion does not fit ones world view does not make it made up unless a persons world viewis based on bias and ignorance.
And here's an analysis of those findings by Andrew Gelman. I'm not saying that Case/Deaton's finding were wrong--just that this is a pretty cogent analysis of what might be behind those numbers (for instance, white women's mortality rates are actually surpassing those of white males.)
Just playing Devil's advocate... ;)
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2015/11/death_rates_for_white_middle_aged_americans_are_no t_increasing.html
Chicken lady
1-17-16, 7:15am
The increase in mortality is supported.
the average age of death (life expectancy) statistic is not supported.
they are dying because they cannot adjust to a new reality in which being a white male does not guarantee them special status. They are unable to deal with the reality everyone else has been facing for centuries (something external to my control can happen and I can fall like a rock or fail to reach my goals and there will be nothing I can do about it and no one will help me) and so they become depressed, turn to drugs, and commit suicide.
when I was a kid, one of the main careers for working class white guys was fishing. And they kept drowning. So my school system required everyone to learn to swim in the 6th grade. Drownings decreased. We did not ban fishing.
the guys in the statistic are not being singled out for special stress because they are white males, they are just living like everyone else. And I think the answer is to strengthen the social safety net and teach kids that they are not defined by a paycheck, an address, a car, or a job title. That it is a good thing to participate in community and that we all have different things to contribute and it is ok to take back when you need something.
and guess what? White women are dying of heart attacks at a higher rate and younger ages. It's associated with those high power and status careers we get to have now.
(I'm a little bitter this morning. Dh is working long hours all weekend because apparently his boss is more important than God. He doesn't work in medicine, law enforcement, emergency services of any kind or the military, so I'm pretty sure this could wait until Monday.)
Ultralight
1-17-16, 7:56am
We're whitey, so according to the white privilege/BLM folks, we're eeevvvilll.
This statement is nonsense.
Tradd:
You might think this is a "safe space" where white people can spout off ignorant stuff and go unchallenged.
But you are mistaken.
[QUOTE=jp1;228540]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health_in_the_United_States
http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/data-mine/2015/01/05/black-americans-have-fewer-years-to-live-heres-why
While true that mortality rates are getting worse for white men they still aren't dying as young as black people.[quote]
I mostly know educational statistics so I go back to one of the strongest I know. We value getting ahead and equal opportunity in education (apparently in words only,) Well they did some work around tracking suspension rates based on the same offenses in schools and can evaluate schools on this. In some of our great(?) schools that are trying to address low scores and achievement the numbers are horrible. So that doesn't mean that a certain race is getting in trouble more just that we are suspending kids of color at a higher rate than white kids for the same offenses. Each out of school suspension increases the chance of the kid being in the justice system before 18, and that increases the likelihood of being in the justice system later which, surprise, is now run by a for-profit structure.
I am white and I choose to use the privilege that I didn't ask for to create change so my friend's kids are as safe as mine.
This statement is nonsense.
Tradd:
You might think this is a "safe space" where white people can spout off ignorant stuff and go unchallenged.
But you are mistaken.
Obviously your sarcasm meter needs to be recalibrated.
Williamsmith
1-17-16, 9:54pm
The OP posed the question regarding nonwhites feeling as if they are stuck within there own enthnicity. My observation has been that many different ethnicities have no trouble assimilating into the white society that is defined mostly by standard spoken English. The use of this standard spoken English allows them to enter fields of prosperity such as the law, medicine or higher education. But we in fact do not teach this to blacks. Blacks resist learning proper English and as a result that are taught are not prepared for those fields of prosperity. We currently have a President who is very proficient in stand spoken English. Why are blacks so resistant to co opting a dialect that will enable them to better succeed? Or is it the educators who are afraid to offend them so we just let them speak in present tense all the time without trying to make them like their succesful peers......Obama and Carson who are very well spoken.
iris lily
1-17-16, 11:28pm
The OP posed the question regarding nonwhites feeling as if they are stuck within there own enthnicity. My observation has been that many different ethnicities have no trouble assimilating into the white society that is defined mostly by standard spoken English. The use of this standard spoken English allows them to enter fields of prosperity such as the law, medicine or higher education. But we in fact do not teach this to blacks. Blacks resist learning proper English and as a result that are taught are not prepared for those fields of prosperity. We currently have a President who is very proficient in stand spoken English. Why are blacks so resistant to co opting a dialect that will enable them to better succeed? Or is it the educators who are afraid to offend them so we just let them speak in present tense all the time without trying to make them like their succesful peers......Obama and Carson who are very well spoken.
Your underlying assumption about African Americans who reside at the low end of the socio-economic place is wrong. This group, the group who speaks primarily in non-standard English, does not value what you value. It's not important to them to "enter fields of prosperity" and to work toward other markers of middle class life. "Succeeding" as you define it isn't important to them.
Economic security, safety for their children, sure those are desired by my urban poor neighbors. But all of the values that allow one to lift oneself out of poverty to have economic and physical security are not held by many. For instance, talking like a middle class white person alienates family and friends and when one values community over security, nice speak isn't a choice you make.
Williamsmith
1-18-16, 1:51am
Your underlying assumption about African Americans who reside at the low end of the socio-economic place is wrong. This group, the group who speaks primarily in non-standard English, does not value what you value. It's not important to them to "enter fields of prosperity" and to work toward other markers of middle class life. "Succeeding" as you define it isn't important to them.
Economic security, safety for their children, sure those are desired by my urban poor neighbors. But all of the values that allow one to lift oneself out of poverty to have economic and physical security are not held by many. For instance, talking like a middle class white person alienates family and friends and when one values community over security, nice speak isn't a choice you make.
If this is as you say, is it because of the unique history of the African American ...and I do mean slavery as part of that history but of course the civil rights movement also........that causes them to fail to claim the very things that they fought for and won by abolition and through legislation. Why is it that a man like Martin Luther King can be such a legacy that they name roads after him, and holidays and buildings but he fails to inspire large swaths of African Americans. They would rather remain, poor, disadvantaged, victims of equal or more violence at their own hands than they ever suffered at others. Learning and using the language seems even adoption one could chose to use in situations of benefit but then could revert to their accepted slang in the neighborhood. It seems like they have abandoned all that has been fought for.
Your underlying assumption about African Americans who reside at the low end of the socio-economic place is wrong. This group, the group who speaks primarily in non-standard English, does not value what you value. It's not important to them to "enter fields of prosperity" and to work toward other markers of middle class life. "Succeeding" as you define it isn't important to them.
Economic security, safety for their children, sure those are desired by my urban poor neighbors. But all of the values that allow one to lift oneself out of poverty to have economic and physical security are not held by many. For instance, talking like a middle class white person alienates family and friends and when one values community over security, nice speak isn't a choice you make.
I have a different take on this. Everything I've read about multigenerational poverty is that people born into it tend to live their lives very much in the present. The past sucked and had lots of unhappiness. The future is likely to have more of the same. So you take whatever happiness comes your way at the moment and assume that it's transitory. Given that expectation speaking mostly in the present tense would make perfect sense. The solution isn't speech classes, it's figuring out how to give this whole segment of our society hope for a better future. The person who can figure out how to do that without getting killed will be a hero even bigger than Martin Luther King Jr.
It also, unfortunately, makes sense that your urban poor neighbors place a sense of community over saving and building their own economic future. If they expect, rationally given most of their lived life histories, that bad times inevitably follow good, they'd be fools not to be generous to others in their community if they are having good times because they will need to turn to those same community members for help when their own good fortune ends.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 9:25am
I have a different take on this. Everything I've read about multigenerational poverty is that people born into it tend to live their lives very much in the present. The past sucked and had lots of unhappiness. The future is likely to have more of the same. So you take whatever happiness comes your way at the moment and assume that it's transitory. Given that expectation speaking mostly in the present tense would make perfect sense. The solution isn't speech classes, it's figuring out how to give this whole segment of our society hope for a better future. The person who can figure out how to do that without getting killed will be a hero even bigger than Martin Luther King Jr.
It also, unfortunately, makes sense that your urban poor neighbors place a sense of community over saving and building their own economic future. If they expect, rationally given most of their lived life histories, that bad times inevitably follow good, they'd be fools not to be generous to others in their community if they are having good times because they will need to turn to those same community members for help when their own good fortune ends.
yes, I can see all that. It's still about values, but your picture gets into more of the why.
rodeosweetheart
1-18-16, 9:47am
To me, pronunciamentos about a group of people of which you are not a member are suspect at best and racist or sexist at worst. While often earnest and well-intentioned, they fall short of wisdom. But hey, I respect your right to express your opinions.
To me, pronunciamentos about a group of people of which you are not a member are suspect at best and racist or sexist at worst. While often earnest and well-intentioned, they fall short of wisdom. But hey, I respect your right to express your opinions.
So a group of feminists discussing "the patriarchy" would be suspect at best?
rodeosweetheart
1-18-16, 10:30am
I stand by my opinion. A philosophical construct is not a group of people.
I stand by my opinion. A philosophical construct is not a group of people.
So "patriarchy" is within the bounds of acceptable discussion, but white Americans talking about the economic impact of African-American cultural attitudes is not? Can non-Muslims legitimately discuss Islamic attitudes toward women?
So "patriarchy" is within the bounds of acceptable discussion, but white Americans talking about the economic impact of African-American cultural attitudes is not? Can non-Muslims legitimately discuss Islamic attitudes toward women?
It seems to me that most women are more than familiar enough with the concept and experience of patriarchy to be able to discuss it. After all, it's arguably the construct we all live within.
rodeosweetheart
1-18-16, 11:03am
I said what I meant, that philosophical constructs are not groups of people.
There is actually some good research to show the values of families in poverty/generational poverty. How they choose the best survival methods and compares it to the middle class and wealthy groups and their skills. Very interesting, often poverty is studied without correlating the other groups, we aren't trying to fix middle class after a
The book is Framework for Understanding Poverty by Ruby Payne
So a group of feminists discussing "the patriarchy" would be suspect at best?
Racism and sexism are only possible actions if carried out by the group of people who have more power. It's the same reason that I can't be accused of sexually harassing my boss, but my boss can be accused of sexually harassing me. So, no, feminists discussing the patricarchy isn't sexism.
Racism and sexism are only possible actions if carried out by the group of people who have more power. It's the same reason that I can't be accused of sexually harassing my boss, but my boss can be accused of sexually harassing me. So, no, feminists discussing the patricarchy isn't sexism.
So a position of weakness confers the moral high ground in this type of conversation?
So a position of weakness confers the moral high ground in this type of conversation?
Yeah. It does. Just like a schoolyard bully is only a bully if he's picking on someone weaker than himself. If he's picking on someone stronger than himself he's either brave or stupid, but he's not a bully.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 11:16am
There is actually some good research to show the values of families in poverty/generational poverty. How they choose the best survival methods and compares it to the middle class and wealthy groups and their skills. Very interesting, often poverty is studied without correlating the other groups, we aren't trying to fix middle class after a
The book is Framework for Understanding Poverty by Ruby Payne
yes, I read the book nearly 20 years ago now. The exercises that show skills learned in each social strata were very interesting. This illustrated that if you take a middle-class person out of that my Lou and put him in poverty, he has a lot of skills to learn.
rodeosweetheart
1-18-16, 11:17am
Milieu? What a funny auto-correct--My Lou sounds so blue collar.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 11:20am
Haha ok, I will keep that in the post,it's funny.
Yes I,did say "milieu"
now when I type "mileau" the autocorrect changes it to "mill ear " or Milwaukee
yes, I read the book nearly 20 years ago now. The exercises that show skills learned in each social data were very interesting. This illustrated that if you take a middle-class person out of that my Lou and put him in poverty, he has a lot of skills to learn.
Yes, and the same thing if you take a middle class person and put him in wealth. The reality is that learning to live in a different socio-economic class from the one you were raised in is tough.
If I recall correctly this book was also the one that talked about how it takes a full generation to learn the behaviors of poverty. In other words, if you were born middle class and then your dad died and the rest of your childhood was poor from a financial standpoint you wouldn't necessarily end up poor in adulthood because your mom would still likely impart you with middle class values and skills. But if you don't escape that childhood poverty then your children will be much more likely to remain in poverty.
Yeah. It does. Just like a schoolyard bully is only a bully if he's picking on someone weaker than himself. If he's picking on someone stronger than himself he's either brave or stupid, but he's not a bully.
So the "weak" may opine about the "strong", however you choose to define them, but not the other way around? And using the currently prevailing philosophical constructs of race, class and gender, Europeans ought not talk about Africans, the wealthy ought not discuss the poor and males ought not discuss females?
People can opine about whatever they want. At least if they don't care that they are going to be perceived to be assholes.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 11:41am
So the "weak" may opine about the "strong", however you choose to define them, but not the other way around? And using the currently prevailing philosophical constructs of race, class and gender, Europeans ought not talk about Africans, the wealthy ought not discuss the poor and males ought not discuss females?
White men may only engage in talk about weaker races classes and genders if they are carrying out academic research.
Yes, I think you've got it now. Please try to keep up.:)
As an aside, I remember Ruby Payne's book as being self published, not a product of controlled academic research, and probably not heralded by people in that discipline. Her book was very practical and as such caught fire.
People can opine about whatever they want. At least if they don't care that they are going to be perceived to be assholes.
And under this rule varying degrees of victim status confer a sort of assholiness exemption?
Pointing out someone else's assholiness doesn't make one an asshole. Just like religious freedom doesn't mean that one gets to cram their religious preferences down someone else's throat.
Pointing out someone else's assholiness doesn't make one an asshole.
Not necessarily, unless you count the use of certain deliberately offensive terms as indicative of an offensive character. It's more a matter of subjective judgment than a reliable bookkeeping term.
Shouldn't the true criteria be the civility, respectfulness and truth one brings to the discussion rather than external characteristics?
iris lilies
1-18-16, 12:32pm
Since I had time, I poked around on the Internet to see what responses there are to Ruby Payne's book. Here is one :
...As we said at the beginning of this article, Ruby Payne’s success with her program on poverty is impressive. Her book is self-published; she earns the royalty as well as the publisher's margin; her only expense is having it printed. If in fact over 800,000 copies have been sold between the 1998 and 2005 editions, as the most recent cover claims, that single book has probably made many millions of dollars. The success of the book and the business to which it is attached is not attributable to entrepreneurship alone. The appeal of the book relies on a set of values—a framework—that exists outside of education, and is pervasive throughout middle-class US society. Policy that constructs poverty as a problem of schools creates a large industry that consists of many more businesses than just Payne's. Her success indicts all of us in education, indeed most of the American public, as it reveals the degree to which we use the education system to protect our own sense of entitlement to privilege.
Randy Bomer,et al, concluding paragraph to a long analytical article on Paynes work published in Teachers College Record in 2008.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 12:59pm
Good lord, I heard this one minute ago on NPR, The interviewer actually asked this question:
should a white candidate question a black president's accomplishments?
He asked the question of a black vice chair of the democratic party in South Carolina.
If I were that woman I would have thrown my shoes at him only -it's a radio interview!
Not necessarily, unless you count the use of certain deliberately offensive terms as indicative of an offensive character. It's more a matter of subjective judgment than a reliable bookkeeping term.
Shouldn't the true criteria be the civility, respectfulness and truth one brings to the discussion rather than external characteristics?
Truth, yes. Respectfulness and civility only if that was the way that one was treated in the first place. For example, back when blacks were called uppity for not knowing their proper place in society the people calling them uppity, or who didn't call out the uppity-callers for their assholery, did not deserve to be treated with respect or civility.
Good lord, I heard this one minute ago on NPR, The interviewer actually asked this question:
should a white candidate question a black president's accomplishments?
He asked the question of a black vice chair of the democratic party in South Carolina.
If I were that woman I would have thrown my shoes at him only -it's a radio interview!
That's the NPR milieu for you. If all you're ever exposed to is one way of thinking, you tend to accept the prevailing orthodoxy (however ridiculous) without question.
Megan McArdle, who is always worth reading, wrote an interesting piece on the ideological conformity of academics.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2016-01-07/academics-are-so-lefty-they-don-t-even-see-it
Chicken lady
1-18-16, 2:34pm
Wait a minute, can we go back to that you can't be racist/sexist against the people with more power thing?
i think that's wrong. I had a discussion about that with my mother in law over Christmas. She was bemoaning the fact that she was going to have to vote for Hilary Clinton even though she disagrees with her because Hilary is a woman.
i told her, and I still believe, that voting against someone based solely on their gender is sexist. Period. And discriminating against or hating someone based soley on his or her race is racist, no matter what that race is.
the sexual harassment thing us about power because if I start sexually harassing my boss, my boss can just fire me.
Good lord, I heard this one minute ago on NPR, The interviewer actually asked this question:
should a white candidate question a black president's accomplishments?
He asked the question of a black vice chair of the democratic party in South Carolina.
If I were that woman I would have thrown my shoes at him only -it's a radio interview!
Obviously the interviewer was/is a moron.
iris lilies
1-18-16, 3:34pm
Obviously the interviewer was/is a moron.
I think it was John Hockenberry from the news show the Takeaway.
Thanks, JP. Sometimes I wonder if Imam compleley out of touch.
I guess I will considerthis a moronicmquesron, and if he asks too many of these I Will THEN can call him a moron. :)
Pointing out someone else's assholiness doesn't make one an asshole. Just like religious freedom doesn't mean that one gets to cram their religious preferences down someone else's throat.
It occurs to me that in the religion of identity politics, being white is the equivalent to original sin. It is bestowed upon us at birth and we can never overcome the taint, although we can worsen the sin by accepting it. That's when we go from heretics to assholes.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 10:35am
It occurs to me that in the religion of identity politics, being white is the equivalent to original sin.
While this is a charismatic turn of phrase I just don't think it reflect reality.
I have spent a ton of time around identity politics folks. I mean massive amounts -- years in college and graduate school. I never felt like they thought I committed original sin. lol
While this is a charismatic turn of phrase I just don't think it reflect reality.
I have spent a ton of time around identity politics folks. I mean massive amounts -- years in college and graduate school. I never felt like they thought I committed original sin. lol
You don't have to commit the sin, you're born with it.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 10:56am
You don't have to commit the sin, you're born with it.
I meant that I never felt or was made to feel like I committed original sin by being born.
And I know how original sin works, I was raised half-a-Catholic. haha
So from your perspective, tell me more about how it feels to be marked by this original sin of whiteness...
Williamsmith
1-19-16, 11:00am
Some have made up for original sin by forsaking the people from which they belong. And to prove their allegiance have bought into academia by taking on massive student loan debt.
I have been attacked on the witness stand by academics who assumed I Was just a conservative white dumb uneducated cop. They did so out of arrogance and ignorance. And they lost.
So from your perspective, tell me more about how it feels to be marked by this original sin of whiteness...I'm an atheist, unhindered by others thoughts of my transgressions.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:06am
Some have made up for original sin by forsaking the people from which they belong. And to prove their allegiance have bought into academia by taking on massive student loan debt.
Okay, what do you mean forsaking?
I care deeply for my people -- the working-poor and atheists. I spent years as a union activist for working families. I did this before, during, and after my time in academe. I believe whole-heartedly in the union as an organization form and as the best method to properly distribute wealth and economic justice.
I continue to also be an active member of the atheist community in any place I live! If I have any money when my time comes, I hope to leave it to a secular organization.
I have been attacked on the witness stand by academics who assumed I Was just a conservative white dumb uneducated cop. They did so out of arrogance and ignorance. And they lost.
I have problems with academics and non-academics. It depends on the individual. :)
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:08am
I'm an atheist, unhindered by others thoughts of my transgressions.
I want to learn your thoughts. I can withhold judgement and comments. The listening and learning part is more important to me than making a snide comment (which I do enjoy, but it is not the real pay-off).
I want to learn your thoughts.If you're expecting a philosophical tome, you're out of luck, but ask a question and I'll do my best to answer.
ApatheticNoMore
1-19-16, 11:13am
It occurs to me that in the religion of identity politics, being white is the equivalent to original sin. It is bestowed upon us at birth and we can never overcome the taint, although we can worsen the sin by accepting it. That's when we go from heretics to assholes.
in a guilt ridden culture everything is interpreted through the lens of guilt I guess, even things that aren't. Like privilege is interpreted as guilt even though it's not (and even though it is sometimes interpreted this way it doesn't even mean life has been easy for one, one could come from the worst imaginable background - say you are white and you come from a background where your parents killed your two siblings before you were taken away to foster care, and if one somehow managed to survive that and some day be interviewing for a job say one might be considered a better hire on a subconscious level because of one's whiteness _*that* is white privilege - it hardly means one's life has been wonderful, even if some people seem to interpret it that way). It's why I'm kind of reluctant to say someone stuck being poisoned by coal mining in Appalachia is privileged because they are white, because in that case I wonder if they even have any possible way to benefit from that privilege (unlike our hypothetical job seeker who might experience some gain from it maybe). But yea in a guilt ridden culture everything is guilt, responsibility is mistaken for guilt, looking at where things went wrong is guilt. Everything is a question of am I guilty or not? What does it even mean to accept whiteness? Is it like accepting one is the age one is, one looks like one looks (one can only change this so much, short of drastic measures), one came from the history they came from, the sky appears the color it appears etc..
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:13am
If you're expecting a philosophical tome, you're out of luck, but ask a question and I'll do my best to answer.
What does it feel like to be marked by the original sin of whiteness? What are the social costs to you? To others? What makes you think that whiteness is the original sin of identity politics?
Williamsmith
1-19-16, 11:14am
If you as white male whatever, are to be accepted by those of other description in academia......then you have done so as I described. There is no other way to get there. You must prove your worthiness and your commitment to humble yourself before them because of your latent privilege. No matter how incongruent that is with your own personal history. Your skin color determines it. Not your good works.
I think everyone should show a little humility before other people. And also a little pride. And respect those things as they come from others. If we could agree on the level of both of these internal regulators that is acceptable in interpersonal interactions, it seems to me there would be soooo much less conflict.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:20am
If you as white male whatever, are to be accepted by those of other description in academia......then you have done so as I described. There is no other way to get there. You must prove your worthiness and your commitment to humble yourself before them because of your latent privilege. No matter how incongruent that is with your own personal history. Your skin color determines it. Not your good works.
I am not a tenured professor! lol
Though I wouldn't mind it!
I did mediocre in college. I did well in graduate school. I am white.
But I am still not quite sure what you're getting at.
What does it feel like to be marked by the original sin of whiteness?
As I implied earlier, I reject the notion personally although find it amusing when adherents of the religion of identity politics imply I should pay penance for my lack of grace.
What are the social costs to you? To others? None, other than the occasional label of racist or asshole due to a preference to treat people as individuals rather than an oppressed group.
What makes you think that whiteness is the original sin of identity politics? The popularity of events such as Portland Community College declaring April "Whiteness History Month" described as an “educational project” exploring how the “construct of whiteness” creates racial inequality.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:31am
As I implied earlier, I reject the notion personally although find it amusing when adherents of the religion of identity politics imply I should pay penance for my lack of grace.
What is the penance they imply you should pay?
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you accept the basic premise of "white privilege", and that you believe you have certain advantages over other groups for historical reasons by virtue of your ancestry. How should that drive your behavior? Are you just expected to exercise a heightened level of sensitivity? Curb your tongue or moderate your behavior in the presence of the less favored in a way other than you would respect everyone's dignity on a color-blind basis.?
Or are there more practical obligations? Are you ethically required to accede to various forms of remedial discrimination? Or support some kind of reparations?
Williamsmith
1-19-16, 11:33am
I think everyone should show a little humility before other people. And also a little pride. And respect those things as they come from others. If we could agree on the level of both of these internal regulators that is acceptable in interpersonal interactions, it seems to me there would be soooo much less conflict.
A very wise person......:+1:
What is the penance they imply you should pay?In this case, a detailed explanation of my heresy, although generally it involves an acceptance of implied guilt, whether warranted or not.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:43am
All interesting questions!
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you accept the basic premise of "white privilege", and that you believe you have certain advantages over other groups for historical reasons by virtue of your ancestry.
I do believe that white privilege exists because of my whiteness. Though my ancestry remains mysterious. I will find out within a month or two just what that is, when my parents' DNA tests come back.
How should that drive your behavior?
My acceptance and knowledge of white privilege drives my particular behavior in a few different ways. For one, I get annoyed when my white privilege is not extended to my girlfriend. I examine this reaction and think: "We really need to do away with white privilege on all levels, such as the personal, institutional, etc."
I think we're slowly making some progress at this.
How should it drive the behavior of others? Well, I think being aware of it is key. This way people can cease privileging others based on whiteness. I think that this acknowledgement needs to happen at the institutional level too.
Are you just expected to exercise a heightened level of sensitivity?
Well, I am not sure what you mean by sensitivity.
Curb your tongue or moderate your behavior in the presence of the less favored in a way other than you would respect everyone's dignity on a color-blind basis?
Curb your tongue how? Moderate one's behavior how?
Or are there more practical obligations?
Such as?
Are you ethically required to accede to various forms of remedial discrimination?
I would say no. But I'd like you to clarify what you mean.
Or support some kind of reparations?
I think it depends on the what kind of reparations. Though this is likely something that would have to be decided and implemented on a collective level, because I don't have a magic wand.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 11:46am
In this case, a detailed explanation of my heresy, although generally it involves an acceptance of implied guilt, whether warranted or not.
I am as liberal as they get, and (as far as I know) as white as they get (I like Star Trek, Kurt Vonnegut, heavy metal, and green bean casserole) but I have never felt guilty about being white. lol
Which heresy are you talking about? Which implied guilt? Like... I just don't feel it.
Now, that is not to say I have not experienced individual acts of very, very low-level discrimination because of my whiteness while in academe. But that could happen lots of different places, and it was not anywhere near a major thrust of my experience.
ApatheticNoMore
1-19-16, 12:00pm
Let's suppose for the sake of argument that you accept the basic premise of "white privilege", and that you believe you have certain advantages over other groups for historical reasons by virtue of your ancestry. How should that drive your behavior? Are you just expected to exercise a heightened level of sensitivity?
I think intellectual awareness that one may have had certain advantages in life may be enough (and again this doesn't mean one didn't also have other disadvantages). Like for instance I have certain advantages in life having come from highly educated parents and grandparents etc.. Are they the same advantages I would have if I personally had a bunch of credentials to my name. Of course not. I can't put it on a resume, it's different, but it's an advantage. And one often has certain advantages just by being white. Or as in another thread by being raised middle class etc.. And if one is a position of power (saying making hiring decisions) looking at how to be more fair, less biased etc..
Curb your tongue or moderate your behavior in the presence of the less favored in a way other than you would respect everyone's dignity on a color-blind basis.?
well one should always act with compassion and kindness and first seek understanding and assume the best of people I believe ... (no this doesn't mean put up with actual abuse etc., that's a different thing)
Or are there more practical obligations? Are you ethically required to accede to various forms of remedial discrimination? Or support some kind of reparations?
I don't think one is ethically required to accept them, but I do think the moral case for reparations is a good one (paid for by taxes, that is by everyone, not just by guilty white people or something), to recognize a great historical wrong was done to people (blacks and native americans mostly yea). But whatever if we had real anti-poverty measures it would alone do a lot of good (real ones, much more serious and extensive than the so called "war on poverty")
UL, may I suggest you (and others) read the collected works of Shelby Steele who has made a career of studying the phenomenon of white guilt and multiculturalism, or at least give more than a passing thought to MLK's dream that people be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. Maybe then your girlfriend can just be your girlfriend, not your black girlfriend, and you can discuss privilege or oppression on a collective scale rather than an ethnic one.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 12:25pm
UL, may I suggest you (and others) read the collected works of Shelby Steele who has made a career of studying the phenomenon of white guilt and multiculturalism, or at least give more than a passing thought to MLK's dream that people be judged by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin. Maybe then your girlfriend can just be your girlfriend, not your black girlfriend, and you can discuss privilege or oppression on a collective scale rather than an ethnic one.
I'll give Shelby Steele a google. :)
I am dubious about multiculturalism in the long-term. Ideally I'd like to have one human culture based on my values. ;)
Here is the thing. I think it is possible for me to judge a person by their character -- not on the color of their skin. But I can simultaneously see that is not the case for others or for institutions.
Alan, you might well judge everyone as individuals regardless of their skin color. And I dig this! But I think it is important to look at the cultural context that the person grew up in and/or exists in as well. I think it is important to look at the way others and institutions judge, assess, and favor certain groups.
ApatheticNoMore
1-19-16, 12:33pm
Here is the thing. I think it is possible for me to judge a person by their character -- not on the color of their skin. But I can simultaneously see that is not the case for others or for institutions.
i wonder if this is even possible, because Sigmund Freud that's why! :~) Or mostly: while one may consciously do so, I think a certain amount of bias and assumptions operate at an unconscious level (yes some research has been done on this). So I wonder to the degree it is possible. But there is a difference between having some unconscious assumptions and being an open racist of course, they are not to be equated, and I am not saying the only prejudice left in the world is of the innocent unconscious type. And yes of course institutions can be very racist (the criminal justice system would be the most obvious).
I'll give Shelby Steele a google. :)
Cool! As long as you're broadening your horizons, let me also suggest Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell. They're three of the best known black academics that liberal academics have never heard of.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 12:40pm
LDAHL; Alan; Williamsmith:
Thoughts on this?
When I was in college I took a class called Black Intellectual History. The class was taught by an unrepentant 1960s Black Radical professor. Dude loved Fidel and Fanon and all those cats! He told his daughter not to say The Pledge of Allegiance at her school, he traveled to Africa and Cuba, he helped me get Bobby Seale of the Black Panthers to come to my school and give a speech on the history of Civil Rights, etc.
Needless to say, I thoroughly enjoyed his class!
He would refer to me as "that white radical" or "Red" (because of my leftiness) -- in class! haha
At the time I was dating a woman in his class. She was a Latina, nearly as radical politically as I.
Anyway, she told me once that she ran into the Professor outside of class and they had a long talk. Apparently he tried to get her to doubt her relationship with me. She told me he said things like: "Why are you seeing that white radical?" and "Why don't you date a Chicano or even a Brother?"
I felt a little betrayed at the time though, because the professor was the closest thing to a mentor I had during my time in college/graduate school.
But mostly I just thought: "That professor is flawed; he is a flawed man who is otherwise good."
I had other radical professors, and they were good to me. No problems. Gay ones, female ones, other black ones, etc.
Ultralight
1-19-16, 12:43pm
i wonder if this is even possible, because Sigmund Freud that's why! :~) Or mostly: while one may consciously do so, I think a certain amount of bias and assumptions operate at an unconscious level (yes some research has been done on this). So I wonder to the degree it is possible. But there is a difference between having some unconscious assumptions and being an open racist of course, they are not to be equated, and I am not saying the only prejudice left in the world is of the innocent unconscious type. And yes of course institutions can be very racist (the criminal justice system would be the most obvious).
I mostly agree, I think. People have some racist attitudes and views -- even if they think they don't or if they don't want to. I also know that positive racism is likely to fall into these slots.
LDAHL; Alan; Williamsmith:
Thoughts on this?
Yes, it goes back to the religion of identity politics. Where you adhere to it by describing everyone by their race, he was a church elder protecting his flock from the common enemy.
http://www.politico.com/pdf/080222_MOPrincetonThesis_1-251.pdf
Bae, do you have a link to the rest of the thesis? It's an interesting concept but in pages 1-25 we've only got the structure, not the results.
I think intellectual awareness that one may have had certain advantages in life may be enough (and again this doesn't mean one didn't also have other disadvantages). Like for instance I have certain advantages in life having come from highly educated parents and grandparents etc.. Are they the same advantages I would have if I personally had a bunch of credentials to my name. Of course not. I can't put it on a resume, it's different, but it's an advantage. And one often has certain advantages just by being white. Or as in another thread by being raised middle class etc.. And if one is a position of power (saying making hiring decisions) looking at how to be more fair, less biased etc..
well one should always act with compassion and kindness and first seek understanding and assume the best of people I believe ... (no this doesn't mean put up with actual abuse etc., that's a different thing)
I don't think one is ethically required to accept them, but I do think the moral case for reparations is a good one (paid for by taxes, that is by everyone, not just by guilty white people or something), to recognize a great historical wrong was done to people (blacks and native americans mostly yea). But whatever if we had real anti-poverty measures it would alone do a lot of good (real ones, much more serious and extensive than the so called "war on poverty")
So, if I'm understanding you, in essence the obligation to treat others with dignity is in no way altered or enhanced by the DNA of the parties involved? I certainly agree with that. I don't see the need to inject labels into the situation at all.
LDAHL; Alan; Williamsmith:
Thoughts on this?
When I was in college I took a class called Black Intellectual History. The class was taught by an unrepentant 1960s Black Radical professor. Dude loved Fidel and Fanon and all those cats! He told his daughter not to say The Pledge of Allegiance at her school, he traveled to Africa and Cuba, he helped me get Bobby Seale of the Black Panthers to come to my school and give a speech on the history of Civil Rights, etc.
Needless to say, I thoroughly enjoyed his class!
He would refer to me as "that white radical" or "Red" (because of my leftiness) -- in class! haha
At the time I was dating a woman in his class. She was a Latina, nearly as radical politically as I.
Anyway, she told me once that she ran into the Professor outside of class and they had a long talk. Apparently he tried to get her to doubt her relationship with me. She told me he said things like: "Why are you seeing that white radical?" and "Why don't you date a Chicano or even a Brother?"
I felt a little betrayed at the time though, because the professor was the closest thing to a mentor I had during my time in college/graduate school.
But mostly I just thought: "That professor is flawed; he is a flawed man who is otherwise good."
I had other radical professors, and they were good to me. No problems. Gay ones, female ones, other black ones, etc.
My thoughts are that only an idiot allows his politics to inform personal relationships. My further thoughts are that idiocy is no significant bar to university employment, except perhaps in some of the hard sciences.
Bae, do you have a link to the rest of the thesis? It's an interesting concept but in pages 1-25 we've only got the structure, not the results.
Heck, I'd thought that was the whole thing, looks like they split it into pieces. Let's see here:
https://obamaprincetonthesis.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/1985_michelle_obama_princeton_thesis.pdf
Thanks. Did you know her personally?
I think the takeaways came out to more or less common sense: we become less uncomfortable as we gain more exposure to something unfamiliar, and under stress and anxiety we will seek out our "comfort group". What the writer of the thesis couldn't do was transcend her own youth; understandably, the questions seem posed and interpreted from the perspective of a bright 20 year old, which lends a certain naivete to the thesis. I do have a hard time with the fact that only about 1 in 5 people responded to the survey at all, that seems a gaping margin for error. Not her fault, she worked with what she got, but it does cause me to question the position of the other 78% of the potential respondents. I wonder what she'd say about it today, given her last 8 years of primarily white aristocracy.
Heck, I'd thought that was the whole thing, looks like they split it into pieces. Let's see here:
https://obamaprincetonthesis.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/1985_michelle_obama_princeton_thesis.pdf
Huh.. I read the first link, and didn't at all make the connection with Michele Robinson Obama until I saw the title of the second link! Very interesting (side note/bit of a coincidence: I was in the Yankee Doodle Tap Room in Princeton's Nassau Inn this weekend and was looking at her picture from back then). I agree with kib.. I wonder how these attitudes have changed. Probably not a lot, given the interest a while back in removing racist symbols on campus.
An analogue I can relate to: back in the early 70s, I was enrolled at a small women's private college. That was when all the schools were going co-ed, and my school steadfastly stuck to its mission to educate women only. The rationale they gave was that women are more likely to speak up in class and have much more opportunity to get leadership positions if they don't have men to compete with.
Not a bad argument but the fact that the school closed its doors in 2011 says that maybe they should have kept up with the times... maybe it's a good sign that women are no longer oppressed or silenced in any way by their male classmates.
I wonder what the record of leadership is for Blacks/women who go to mainstream schools rather than Black/women's schools? And I wonder how that's changed over time.
iris lilies
1-19-16, 4:16pm
Huh.. I read the first link, and didn't at all make the connection with Michele Robinson Obama until I saw the title of the second link! Very interesting (side note/bit of a coincidence: I was in the Yankee Doodle Tap Room in Princeton's Nassau Inn this weekend and was looking at her picture from back then). I agree with kib.. I wonder how these attitudes have changed. Probably not a lot, given the interest a while back in removing racist symbols on campus.
An analogue I can relate to: back in the early 70s, I was enrolled at a small women's private college. That was when all the schools were going co-ed, and my school steadfastly stuck to its mission to educate women only. The rationale they gave was that women are more likely to speak up in class and have much more opportunity to get leadership positions if they don't have men to compete with.
Not a bad argument but the fact that the school closed its doors in 2011 says that maybe they should have kept up with the times... maybe it's a good sign that women are no longer oppressed or silenced in any way by their male classmates.
I wonder what the record of leadership is for Blacks/women who go to mainstream schools rather than Black/women's schools? And I wonder how that's changed over time.
I will bet there are dozens of thesis es on this and related topics our there in high education.
I think the takeaways came out to more or less common sense: we become less uncomfortable as we gain more exposure to something unfamiliar, and under stress and anxiety we will seek out our "comfort group".
I think that basic notion is hardwired through all of evolution. Even when the "comfort group" is a comfortable group of assholes.
The thesis basically examined the attitudes of black students pre, during and post Princeton college days. Black students, on the whole, seemed to become more comfortable interacting with whites and their goals shifted somewhat away from helping the struggling black community over time. However, during their time at the school, they tended to spend more time with their black peers. I didn't find any of it very surprising, we change and grow with our environment but seek comfort from the familiar. It was written by Michelle Obama, which is why I wondered specifically how her own path had gone over time, since she's such a clear example of someone who, willingly or not, is enmeshed in the pale aristocracy at present.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.