View Full Version : The slow fade?
Ultralight
3-28-16, 7:52am
This past weekend my mom and dad came to visit. My dad and I, along with my BIL, were going trout fishing at a nearby lake.
It started off all well and good -- we grilled some burgers (mine was lamb), enjoyed a lunch, talked fishing a little bit, and then packed up the gear.
That is where things took a turn for the infuriating.
As soon as me, my dad, and BIL piled into my hatchback my dad says: "Anybody else packing?"
I said: "Uh...no, we're going to a metro park. I am not even sure you can bring guns there."
He went on a tirade about the law of preemption of some such. Then as I am driving to the lake my dad pulls the gun out and hands it off to my BIL and says: "It is loaded and ready to go!"
I just thought: "I am driving here. I could get fender bended and there could be a negligent discharge! What the hell!?"
Then he went on a rant about gun rights. And then a rant about how great Scalia was.
Then he told me how I needed to rent an apartment with a garage so I can store all my stuff in there, like my canoe, fishing gear, and all that.
Then I specifically got ice to put the fish on (the most humane way to dispatch the fish). Yet when my BIL catches one my dad puts it on a stringer.
He also went on a rant about how without religion people cannot be ethical or charitable. WTF?!
It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.
So I am asking myself: Is that enough? Or should I just do the slow-fade?
You know -- don't call, don't visit, when he and my mom come down to visit I can just have some other obligation.
My mom is not as bad, she is fairly liberal, but she is mentally ill and very materialistic. Again, would I choose to be around her at all if she was not my bio-mom? Probably not.
I kept wondering: Am I part of some cosmic mistake? Why am I here on this planet with these parents? haha
Thoughts on the slow fade?
Williamsmith
3-28-16, 8:27am
On guns.....go buy one, get a conceal carry permit, and sign up for a gun safety course. You then pretend to be interested and you get your dad to go with you to the gun safety course because it is obvious, he needs it. You might be saving someone's life.....including yours. The opposite of the slow fade. You only get one dad.
It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.
I have pondered this all my life - why the universe pairs us up with the parents who bring us here. All I have deduced is that we are here to learn from them.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 8:40am
I have pondered this all my life - why the universe pairs us up with the parents who bring us here. All I have deduced is that we are here to learn from them.
I think you spelled that word wrong. It is not l-e-a-r-n. It is r-u-n! haha
Ultralight
3-28-16, 8:58am
I have two hunting implements that I don't use, except for sporting clays.
I don't want anymore. I don't want to take that class for a CCW. I certainly don't want to pretend I am into that kind of thing, it would be creating a monster I'd have to continually feed.
So my question still lingers on: Why, despite only having one dad, would I want to be around him if he is really not the kind of person I want to be around?
Agreed though, that he needs a major refresher on that safety class!!
This reminds me of a talk I heard by a Buddhist teacher that helped me (although my family has improved quite a bit, it is hard to raise parents). He was on a retreat and fairly new to all of this, the teacher of the retreat was actually his father who was a major Buddhist teacher. The father said as part of the talk 'does anyone feel like they were born into the right family?'. It is a pretty universal feeling.
As far as backing off, that can be a balance of compassion and discernment. If you can feel more compassion for your family, and heck feel safer not being around people who are stupid with guns, then space can be a really good thing. Plus taking care of yourself, self compassion is really important with family stuff.
Williamsmith
3-28-16, 9:25am
I have two hunting implements that I don't use, except for sporting clays.
I don't want anymore. I don't want to take that class for a CCW. I certainly don't want to pretend I am into that kind of thing, it would be creating a monster I'd have to continually feed.
So my question still lingers on: Why, despite only having one dad, would I want to be around him if he is really not the kind of person I want to be around?
Agreed though, that he needs a major refresher on that safety class!!
There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you. He didn't walk away from you, he tried to understand your needs. It is possibly time to pay it back? Maybe?
Ultralight
3-28-16, 9:27am
There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you.
He brought this on himself by choice.
Why would I owe him?
There was a time when you were emergent yourself, incapable of taking care of yourself and he cared for you. He didn't walk away from you, he tried to understand your needs. Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 9:34am
Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.
I did not ask to be born.
So why is he entitled to me taking care of him? That does not add up.
I did not ask to be born.
So why is he entitled to me taking care of him? That does not add up.
Sometimes we get too caught up in our own wants, wishes and desires to see the good in those close to us. It's true of both fathers and sons.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 9:41am
Sometimes we get too caught up in our own wants, wishes and desires to see the good in those close to us. It's true of both fathers and sons.
Could be true.
For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.
I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.
Chicken lady
3-28-16, 9:44am
Ultraliteangler, sometimes I think about your future and I feel sad. You haven't mentioned your gf lately, so I don't know what's up with that, but I see you moving out away from the only family you feel connected to and focusing on divesting yourself of people and items. I look down a road where you age, retire, divest yourself of your car, stop attending your groups because it is too much trouble, your dog is gone, and one day the super investigates an odor and finds your remains in a tiny room with a hotplate, a spoon, a pot, a can opener, a mattress with one sheet, a toothbrush and a change of clothes. Nobody claims the body.
Why would you not try to have positive interactions with your dad? Why would you not reach out and drink life from a fire hose? Your "spiritual tradition" says that this is all there is. And yet, you seem intent on rejecting even this. On working your way doggedly toward nothingness. Are you seeing someone about depression?
ToomuchStuff
3-28-16, 9:47am
That is where things took a turn for the infuriating.
It dawned on me that if he was not my bio-dad, I would really have no reason to want to be around him.
So I am asking myself: Is that enough? Or should I just do the slow-fade?
You know -- don't call, don't visit, when he and my mom come down to visit I can just have some other obligation.
My mom is not as bad, she is fairly liberal, but she is mentally ill and very materialistic. Again, would I choose to be around her at all if she was not my bio-mom? Probably not.
I kept wondering: Am I part of some cosmic mistake? Why am I here on this planet with these parents? haha
Thoughts on the slow fade?
Agreed!
I suspect he's a better person represented.
Turns out I am a "very dominant and critical personality." haha
You sound like him, maybe that is the cosmic joke.
I do agree with Alan, that we are getting a biased opinion here.
I come from a family that there was slow fade, as well as fast burnout (disowning). What happens with your sibling when you disown your parents? For one, they get stuck in the middle, no matter how they feel about it.
I can remember my grandfather speaking to a sibling for the first time in 40 years, at a family members wedding. I didn't understand why, until the horrible phone call from another relative (I didn't know existed), on their deathbed. I have also had some of the family talk about seeking out relatives that disappeared. You might have a reason to disavow yourself, but realize they could seek you out later, either for forgiveness or spite.
I've got some family that the last time I saw, I was a child. There are some real, safety considerations in that case. So there are some reasons family's do fall apart. Because you don't like their belief's, however, itself is damaging. DAMHIKT
Ultralight
3-28-16, 9:49am
For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.
I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.
You and I are very different men, LDAHL. More power to you on your path.
I am definitely in the camp of NOT severing ties for all the reasons stated. At the same time, I can see how those triggers (excuse the pun) probably got set off.. you feel strongly about one thing and your dad feels strongly about the opposite. You are more cautious about carrying guns, and your dad somehow perceived that as threatening. You are more concerned about treating the fish humanely than your dad, which he might have also seen as a threat.
In my relationships with people who drink, I can put myself in your shoes. Using alcohol as an analogy for guns, if I don't feel they should be drinking, but they're passing around the alcohol, I've learned to "change what I can" and accept the rest. I try not to judge them or label them or confront them with my beliefs. At the same time, if I don't like being around them when they're drinking, I cordially excuse myself. I wouldn't dream of cutting them out of my life, though. At least not at this point.
ETA: This is what I TRY to do.. God knows I rarely hit the bullseye with regard to patience and compassion, but I keep trying..
I remember having serious disagreements with my MIL on race, but again, I can't change her, and I certainly didn't find her sometimes racist views to be grounds for cutting her out of my life (not that I could have anyway).
I can understand your frustration, but I think dealing with differences is part of the territory of family relationships.
I am wondering about the actual dynamic here. Did your BIL keep quiet, because he was expecting you, as the closest relative and the driver (in charge), to pipe up and set the safety rules? I would expect the driver to enforce the seat belts rule, then why not enforce the "don't brandish a loaded weapon while I'm driving rule"? Nobody challenged your dad and maybe he's assuming you're both fine with him brandishing a loaded weapon around. Maybe he's not even thinking about an accidental discharge during a fender bender.
Yes, it is going to be an unpleasant conversation. But, it takes a village. Otherwise, you end up with some kind of a tragic outcome and everybody is wondering "why didn't anybody do anything about it earlier?" I am generalizing here. My family had to have the same type of conversations with my FIL. It was his kids that had them and he got ticked off at them. But he never repeated the dangerous behavior. YMMV
I can understand your frustration, but I think dealing with differences is part of the territory of family relationships.
Catherine, you said it so much better than me.
You and I are very different men, LDAHL. More power to you on your path.
It's probably true that I've had a long run of undeserved good luck, and have little understanding of what others may be up against. If that's the case here, I apologize if I came across as judgmental.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:14am
First, let me say thanks for caring and that these are excellent questions. :)
Ultraliteangler, sometimes I think about your future and I feel sad.
Please don't. Feel sad for me if I get cancer of the everything or if I accidentally start a family or two or if I ever have to move back to Phoenix. haha
But don't feel sad about the current trajectory of my life. haha
You haven't mentioned your gf lately, so I don't know what's up with that...
It seems as though we have split. It happened a couple weeks ago. We have remained on good terms though, and it has all been very polite thus far. A very "adult" break-up, I suppose. She is a good woman.
...I see you moving out away from the only family you feel connected to and focusing on divesting yourself of people and items. I look down a road where you age, retire, divest yourself of your car, stop attending your groups because it is too much trouble, your dog is gone, and one day the super investigates an odor and finds your remains in a tiny room with a hotplate, a spoon, a pot, a can opener, a mattress with one sheet, a toothbrush and a change of clothes. Nobody claims the body.
1. Do I feel that connected to them? haha
2. I do divest from many items, but that is not so bothersome. I don't need many things. After all, they are just things.
3. I divest from some people, that is true. I do this when the costs outweigh the benefits.
4. I will never be able to retire. haha! Now I know you're just razzing me!
5. I would like to divest of my car some day. I don't like driving or paying all the fuel costs and such.
6. It is highly unlikely I will stop attending my community groups. I am very involved in the atheist community and I intend to get more involved -- in many ways it is the light of my life. And I am probably facilitating another voluntary simplicity class this spring. I am thinking of doing one or two a year in perpetuity.
7. When my dog is gone I will probably be very, very sad for a few months. I will get over it though, unless he is lost or suffers a horrible death. But if he can die peacefully in a vet's office after eating a large slice of pizza and vanilla ice cream, then I will be okay with Harlan passing. I don't fear his death; I fear his suffering.
8. We're all stardust. When I pass away, regardless of how it happens or who claims or does not claim the body, then I will still be stardust.
Why would you not try to have positive interactions with your dad?
I have! Why do you think I nag him about going fishing with me? Saturday when he came down we revealed his DNA ethnicity results. We grilled burgers and got side-dishes he likes, etc.
Why would you not reach out and drink life from a fire hose?
I am not that thirsty.
Your "spiritual tradition" says that this is all there is. And yet, you seem intent on rejecting even this. On working your way doggedly toward nothingness.
Not true! I cry foul here. I go fishing; I went Fri, Sat, and twice on Sun! While I was out there I showed some kids what wax worms were and how to fish trout because they were not catching anything. I spent an hour fishing with some Russian guy and talking about the differences of fishing trout and crappie. I exchanged pleasantries with perhaps 50 other anglers and had a long talk with a ranger about muskie. I also went to a potluck with my voluntary simplicity crew; we told lots of jokes and funny stories; we had some heartfelt discussions; we ate yummy food; the host showed us some Tai Chi. I played fetch with Harlan in the back yard.
Are you seeing someone about depression?
Kinda...?
Williamsmith
3-28-16, 10:29am
He brought this on himself by choice.
Why would I owe him?
Choice? Why would assume that?
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:30am
It's probably true that I've had a long run of undeserved good luck, and have little understanding of what others may be up against. If that's the case here, I apologize if I came across as judgmental.
Not at all. I was merely acknowledging differences. I do not begrudge you your good luck. I hope you stay lucky!
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:31am
Choice? Why would assume that?
He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He chose to create me.
Chicken lady
3-28-16, 10:31am
Well, I feel a little better. All your posts I run across seem to be "thinking about getting rid of..." Never "how I had a great weekend with just a fishing pole, some food and a dog."
Not at all. I was merely acknowledging differences. I do not begrudge you your good luck. I hope you stay lucky!
Who was it who said "Luck only lasts a lifetime if you die young"?
Hope it works out for you.
How sharper than a serpent's tooth....
Williamsmith
3-28-16, 10:37am
He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He choice to create me.
Perhaps the root of the problem lies nearby.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:38am
Well, I feel a little better. All your posts I run across seem to be "thinking about getting rid of..." Never "how I had a great weekend with just a fishing pole, some food and a dog."
Good. And for what it is worth, I have "met" people online. And then in real life...
They almost always say: "I pictured you being so much more severe and morose." LOL
Others have said they thought I lived a "self-deprived life" until we hang out. LOL
I am like: "You call lounging around the lake all weekend deprived?!"
I am not that bad off. I just have a very troublesome set of parents. I am workshopping ideas to deal with them. haha
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:39am
How sharper than a serpent's tooth....
Explain.
How sharper than a serpent's tooth....
Is that from King Lear?
You don't have to stay in relationships that lack mutual respect. I have distanced myself from people that act in ways that your dad acted. Some of those are related to me.
I haven't ever formally cut off anyone. I have retreated and only have contact when necessary. No one has noticed enough to ask me about it as I am polite when I see them. But I never seek them out.
Life is so much better this way.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:43am
Perhaps the root of the problem lies nearby.
Do tell.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 10:47am
You don't have to stay in relationships that lack mutual respect. I have distanced myself from people that act in ways that your dad acted. Some of those are related to me.
I haven't ever formally cut off anyone. I have retreated and only have contact when necessary. No one has noticed enough to ask me about it as I am polite when I see them. But I never seek them out.
Life is so much better this way.
This is more along the lines what I was thinking.
Williamsmith
3-28-16, 11:12am
Do tell.
I can't find it for you, only you can. When your dad was planning you, do you think he planned to have an atheist minimalist fisherman? Did you ever see "On Golden Pond".
Ultralight
3-28-16, 11:34am
I can't find it for you, only you can. When your dad was planning you, do you think he planned to have an atheist minimalist fisherman? Did you ever see "On Golden Pond".
I have not seen that movie, though I think I will rent it. I like Jane Fonda!
My dad did not plan to have an atheist and/or minimalist son; he is fine with the angler part mostly.
I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.
Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.
So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice.
ApatheticNoMore
3-28-16, 12:38pm
You could also just take a break from the 'rents, x months after which you planned to see them again (you don't have to tell them). Ok if they were obviously on their death bed I personally wouldn't do this needless to say, but otherwise.
I think the practical answer it to limit your exposure a bit but just accept them as they are. All you can ever change is your perspective. We have spent a lifetime "knowing" DH's parents. Their love always feels conditional as in...we will give you money and presents if you show up for every holiday, etc. We expect for you to take care of us now that we are old. DH has a lot of issues with all that I will never understand. My parents died when I was 35 so I have detached from all that stuff emotionally. He says he will be glad when his are gone and that he intensely dislikes them. Apron string syndrome I think. They influenced a lot of control when he needed to be independent and the resentment stuck. I told him once how sad to think as a parent though, that I spent 20 years raising them and they really didn't have any kind words for my effort.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 12:48pm
I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.
Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.
So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice.
You are a bad ass.
Families can be so different. Some people should never have had children......but it happens all the time. Sometimes I think for us baby boomers, our to-be fathers came home from the war and were afraid that life was getting away from them, so they "settled" for the first woman who came along. Also......I think many people thought you had to be married to have sex, so they married for that........and when the interest in that wasn't so great, they realized there wasn't much else.
We were a very troubled family..........as were some of the other neighbors. But then there were the ones we envied, who seemed to have parents who actually loved them.......and were healthy emotionally themselves.
Everyone is different in how they can handle things. Of course, my bias with toxic parents is to lose them ASAP. But maybe those who have had better families growing up.....they can say to be kinder and more tolerant. It's not an easy thing to deal with.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 1:03pm
Families can be so different. Some people should never have had children......but it happens all the time. Sometimes I think for us baby boomers, our to-be fathers came home from the war and were afraid that life was getting away from them, so they "settled" for the first woman who came along. Also......I think many people thought you had to be married to have sex, so they married for that........and when the interest in that wasn't so great, they realized there wasn't much else.
We were a very troubled family..........as were some of the other neighbors. But then there were the ones we envied, who seemed to have parents who actually loved them.......and were healthy emotionally themselves.
Everyone is different in how they can handle things. Of course, my bias with toxic parents is to lose them ASAP. But maybe those who have had better families growing up.....they can say to be kinder and more tolerant. It's not an easy thing to deal with.
Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
Till you spend half your life just covering up
Born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
I was born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
-The Boss
CathyA: "I haven't read all the responses.......but I grew up in a family where my father was at first, an alcoholic.....then a "born again christian", who thought it would give him some power to become a minister. He disliked "others", and I believe he hated me. My mother had her head in the sand. I tried to be a good daughter, but it didn't seem to help. I divorced my father when I was about 31, when he was cruel to me one last time. Then I tolerated my mother until I was in my late 30's.......then I divorced her. We can all have our opinions ULA, but we've all had potentially very different upbringings and experiences. You have to decide for yourself if you appreciate anything at all about your parents.......or if they are toxic to you. I can't tell you how freeing it was for me to let them go. It was something I just had to do to breathe again. I've never regretted it.
Williamsmith, I think you said that ULA sort of owed his father something, since he had raised him. I'm afraid I have to disagree. My father "raised" me.....but he filled me with all sorts of problems/hate/etc., etc., and I owed him absolutely nothing. It's different if you're raised with love and sacrifice and support.........but quite another thing if you've been raised with none of that.
So ULA.......this is something you need to decide for yourself. Good luck with that. It isn't always an easy choice."
Ditto to what CathyA said. I don't know know how to copy her response like all of you do, I am very tech challenged so I am sure I have hit the wrong buttons. Anyway - There is something similar with a relative of mine who was abused in a horrible way and I would love for her to cut off all ties with her family as it has ruled her life. She has tried to do the grin and bare it thing but it just eats away at her. I feel it would be so much better emotionally for her if she had severed all ties and went on with her life. Therapy hasn't helped. Each family thing that comes up brings up old wounds. Also all these so called born again Christians that have been mentioned are not following the teachings of Jesus. I am a Christian and I guess they must be reading a different Bible than I am. UA, I hope you can figure out what is right for you and what is best for you. Another person responded by saying she keeps a polite distance. I think that is a good idea too, so the ties aren't completely severed but if you do need to contact them at sometime the line is still open. I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.
Ultralight
3-28-16, 2:28pm
I hope you find peace in whatever you decide.
Thank you. :)
And I hope that relative of yours can find some peace too.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 7:24am
I was reflecting a bit more.
I really dislike American gun culture. And my dad shoving this messed up gun culture right in my face -- while I am driving -- and just not being safe with a firearm bothered me deeply.
Now keep in mind, I am a member of a gun club. I like to shoot sporting clays and such. I occasionally have gone hunting.
But the gun culture is frightening and grotesque and darkly bizarre. And my dad is now right in the thick of this mass insanity.
It makes me want to sell the two guns I do have -- just to distance myself from this crazy culture of gun nuttery.
Williamsmith
3-29-16, 8:54am
Your dad owns a gun. You own a gun. People are going to start thinking you are just like your dad.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 8:57am
I should probably quit fishing too.
And I noticed my dad drinks water and other fluids to stay hydrated. I should probably stop doing that too.
ToomuchStuff
3-29-16, 9:53am
He and my mom meticulously planned when and how many kids they were going to have. He chose to create me.
My dad did not plan to have an atheist and/or minimalist son; he is fine with the angler part mostly.
So he choose to create you, or not? I didn't realize the tech was even there to create a boy, then!
He choose to create life. That is it.
That still doesn't mean he is ready or capable to deal with you on terms you can deal with. Everyone has their issues.
So he choose to create you, or not? I didn't realize the tech was even there to create a boy, then!
He choose to create life. That is it.
That still doesn't mean he is ready or capable to deal with you on terms you can deal with. Everyone has their issues.
I think a fair amount of the time, nobody chooses to create life.......they choose to have sex.......and the creation part is a potentially unfortunate/unwanted side-effect.
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-16, 11:57am
I was failed birth control, which is why I'm crazy, redundant, paranoid about birth control (I have an IUD and worry - feel the string for the 10th millionth time again etc.) and won't have any real true peace until menopause I guess. I can't imagine anyone anywhere (except post FULL menopause) ever having completely unprotected sex with no birth control, this sounds to me about like jumping out of a plane without a parachute (which ok at that point you want the consequences). No it doesn't make sex easy, it's not an easy thing.
Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 12:02pm
Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.
They purposefully waited 11 years after getting married.
I was failed birth control, which is why I'm crazy, redundant, paranoid about birth control (I have an IUD and worry - feel the string for the 10th millionth time again etc.) and won't have any real true peace until menopause I guess. I can't imagine anyone anywhere (except post FULL menopause) ever having completely unprotected sex with no birth control, this sounds to me about like jumping out of a plane without a parachute (which ok at that point you want the consequences). No it doesn't make sex easy, it's not an easy thing.
Even with fertility issues we used birth control and even had DH get the big V snip though it was unlikely I'd be able to get pregnant again without the help of fertility drugs.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 12:22pm
Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?
Tubal ligation worked for me. The operation was a breeze, with about a day's minor stiffness. I would recommend one to any woman uninterested in reproducing.
ToomuchStuff
3-29-16, 1:28pm
I think a fair amount of the time, nobody chooses to create life.......they choose to have sex.......and the creation part is a potentially unfortunate/unwanted side-effect.
May be, but not in this case. In some cases, they don't even choose to have sex.
Sorry rodeo........I missed that part that he wrote.
Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?
Even not having sex, wouldn't be 100% effective is someone wanted to abduct you and surgically remove sperm or eggs. Isn't that as realistic as your question?
Back when my relative was created, there was no safe abortion technique for unwanted kids. The home brew methods don't always work and didn't in his case.
There are other kids I know, who were created because of violence. If you go back far enough, in peoples history's the majority of people might not be here, because they were wanted.
Then you have cases against birth control manufacturers.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2015/11/12/women_are_suing_a_birth_control_company_for_mislab eled_packs_do_they_have.html
That case is rather clear. What about the cases where the condom broke, or the pill falls in that not effective percent? You have a chance, but it seriously diminishes:
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/jan/24/claredyer1
Then what do you tell the kid or what do they learn as they get older?
You didn't want kids, or you didn't want them (specifically)?
I don't know anybody who agrees with the parents/family 100% of the time. I've got one side where someone left their kid, for their mental health. The kid was probably as messed up by that, as they were helped by not being around it. They were lucky enough to find them and make piece, before they died, before their parent, due to cancer.
As I said, you can make plans, but not everything will be in your control, so who knows what your future will bring.
freshstart
3-29-16, 1:32pm
For what it may be worth, I've generally derived more happiness/satisfaction from the obligations I've taken on then the ones I've avoided. I would not trade away one minute I've spent with the old man, even the disagreements and unwanted advice.
I didn't ask to be born. It was a gift.
This. My dad sucked as a parent in so many ways except for working his ass off to provide for us. I assumed once I was out of that house I would only be back for obligatory visits. Then, this won't happen to you, but he went on anti-depressants for pain and became a different man, to the point where I came home, spent time with him and said to my brother, "very funny, now where's the ***hole I supposedly love?" He had actually changed pretty close to a 180. He still can be a very unpleasant person to be around, particularly political conversations. But he became bearable.
Now if someone told me even 3 yrs ago I'd buy a house with this man to take care of my mother as she dies, I'd have laughed in your face. But it's funny how life comes around with hard obligations to take on and you do them. I am close to my mother but on paper I have every reason not to be since she chose my dad over her kids for the first 20 years of our lives, she didn't protect us. But I thought hard and realized enough time had passed, the past is the past, my father is always, always going to have stupid conversations about things I truly care about and make me crazy but does any of that trump my dying mother? And for me, the answer was no. So I jumped in with both feet.
then I got really sick and this man who I was not too sure about having a deep and abiding love for him, picked me up off the floor over and over and over again and never complained (complaining is his major hobby). He drove me to 76 MD appts last year and again, never a complaint or even a sigh of "oh, this again". Did he hold my hand, weep and tell me how much he loves me and wants me to get better? Of course not, but he proved himself to be a selfless man of grace where the rubber hits the road.
yet if you rode in the car with my dad, we have had many arguments similar to the conversations you were having with your dad, escalating into yelling and hand gestures. For the most part turning ranting talk radio to oldies and telling him to shut the hell up, works. I'm fairly certain more than 50% of his crap is pure nonsense just to get me going but we differ enough that we would never spend time together if we weren't related. I would never have chosen him as a friend.
Life gives you one father. If he didn't beat you (and sometimes even if he did) and abandon you, you are one of the lucky ones. No, you didn't ask to be born but you turned out ok, surely he had something to do with that or maybe not. We are not meant to be friends with our parents, we are not wired to agree with our parents. Sometimes what we are meant to learn from them is to never, ever be like them. But in my belief system, you respect and love your parents to the best of your ability unless there is something so awful you just can't. And arguing about gun control is something I can (and do) live with.
Try talking to him about the hot button topics and ask him to stop or do the slow fade out of his life, just be sure this is not a relationship you may one day deeply regret giving up on.
Apparently birth control is so ineffective that people might as well not even use it?
I've been having frequent sexual activity with the same partner for nearly 40 years now. And we are fanatical about birth control, as we had A Plan for when we wanted a child, *if* we decided to have one.
As a result of our belt-and-suspenders approach to biotechnology and PPE, we have a 19 year old daughter in college now, and we never *did* make that decision.
Soon age and surgery will further reduce our odds of sending a second child through college, but...
https://media.giphy.com/media/IL1sMUfQVRNFC/giphy.gif
freshstart
3-29-16, 1:41pm
I just read about your GF and I am truly sorry.
Also, I forgot to say, had my dad been waving a gun around in a car I was driving, he would've been walking home. That was incredibly crazy of him.
Also, I forgot to say, had my dad been waving a gun around in a car I was driving, he would've been walking home.
One of my firm rules in vehicles is that handguns guns stay in holsters and don't get handled unless there is some Pressing Need.
It wasn't clear from the original post if "waving a gun around" was involved, but still...
Loved your story, freshstart.
People are imperfect. Most of us do the best we can most of the time. As we get older, we realize this.
I agree with the idea that many of us feel we were "assigned" the wrong family. I certainly feel that way. Oh well.
Excellent post, Freshstart.
I used the belt and suspenders method for years, too. Fortunately, it didn't fail me. Talk about hypervigilance!
Freshstart..........you bring up a good point about antidepressants and other brain chemicals that can help us now, that weren't available back then.
I often wondered if my father had taken them, if he would have been a kinder/gentler/less hateful, angry man.
His mother didn't like him........she resented him because she was ill a lot and had him "later"in life (probably in her late 20s!) and his older sister had to drop out of high school to help her take care of him. He hated my mother and me, but liked my brother. But then he also idolized some other women. I guess my point is, there are so many variables into why people end up being good/bad/or tolerable parents.
I was always afraid to have children, for fear I would despise them..........after all, aren't children just a royal pain in the ass (according to my father)? But instead, I think I was a very good and loving mom. But.....I didn't have to work outside the home, or be the bread-winner, so I can't say what effect that would have had on my interaction with the kids. I hope it wouldn't have changed anything.
There's just so many variables.....
Funny how some people can "escape" their upbringing and have different attitudes/traits/relationships with people, while some others continue the abuse later in life with their own families.
Work towards being different than your dad, ULA. Use his example to help guide you. Like they say.......everyone is here for a reason..........even if it's to set a horrible example. :)
His mother didn't like him........she resented him because she was ill a lot and had him "later"in life (probably in her late 20s!) and his older sister had to drop out of high school to help her take care of him.
That's heartbreaking. I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview. I think that kind of thing always stays with you. I'm sorry for your father, CathyA, but I'm also sorry that the "sins of the grandmother" fell upon you, too. But it's very apparent that you have done just the opposite with your kids, so you deserve kudos for that.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 2:48pm
Work towards being different than your dad, ULA. Use his example to help guide you.
I try to live by this:
“The best revenge is to be unlike him who performed the injury.” ― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations
Ultralight
3-29-16, 2:48pm
I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview.
Link?
Link?
Can't find it.. wish I could.
Ultralight
3-29-16, 3:09pm
This American Life segment about parenting.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/317/transcript (http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/317/transcript)
Ultralight
3-29-16, 5:03pm
One of my firm rules in vehicles is that handguns guns stay in holsters and don't get handled unless there is some Pressing Need.
It wasn't clear from the original post if "waving a gun around" was involved, but still...
It was basically just pulling it out, showing it off, and then passing it from the front seat to the back and then to the front again while I am driving through a residential area.
I'm sure that at the various ages in history, showing love/support, etc., varied a lot. If you're struggling for existence, you don't have the same feelings as when you are safe, fed, secure (as parents). Even in the 1950s, there was a lot of difference between how people treated their children. (What am I saying.........there still IS a lot of difference). As the saying used to go......."Children are to be seen and not heard". Everything seems to swing from one side of the pendulum to the other. I think you CAN be too soft on your child too. But......you can be firm, yet let your children know you love them and are there to protect them.
I really believe in Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you don't get past having one type of need fulfilled in childhood......then you'll be stuck there in your interactions with adults.
I’m reading the book “Toxic Parents”. It’s very good. As the author points out, the behavior of parents isn’t just limited to one specific parent…..it’s like a multi-car pile-up. It goes back generation after generation after generation. As I mentioned earlier, my father treated me badly………and his mother treated him badly, and one or both of her parents probably treated her badly, etc. etc.
It’s not easy to deal with the hurt/damage from mistreatment by parents…….but you have to try, in order to not carry on the tradition of that “multi-car pile-up”.
Ultralight
3-30-16, 8:56am
I just read about your GF and I am truly sorry.
Thanks. I am muddling through.
That's heartbreaking. I remember seeing a Steven Sondheim interview on 60 Minutes. He had a very difficult relationship with his mother, but when she was dying he went to her deathbed hoping for some kind of peace between them. But instead of any conciliatory words, she told him that she wished she never had him. I remember the pain on his face as he was relating that story, and he was not young at the time of the interview. I think that kind of thing always stays with you. I'm sorry for your father, CathyA, but I'm also sorry that the "sins of the grandmother" fell upon you, too. But it's very apparent that you have done just the opposite with your kids, so you deserve kudos for that.
Thanks catherine! :)
That's really sad about Steven Sondheim. I can honestly say I NEVER would say anything like that about my children. I would never even think it..........even through the worst of times. Love was always there.
My father never came out and said that, but he said it indirectly, always finding fault with everything I did, and telling me I was a "contemptible little wretch." I didn't even know what that was, but I knew it wasn't good!
Children give their parents soooooo many chances to love them. In many cases their survival depends on it. Hope springs eternal, I guess..........but eventually one does give up (and should.).
I find the human psyche so interesting..........how it can be so cruel or loving. The brain can do so many things to protect the human it belongs to, suppress things, excuse things, rationalize things, endure things, etc.
Sorry to have gotten off-track a bit ULA............I truly hope you can find some peace with your family.....whether that means finally accepting them, or ignoring them, or divorcing them. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with.
Ultralight
3-30-16, 9:03am
Thanks catherine! :)
That's really sad about Steven Sondheim. I can honestly say I NEVER would say anything like that about my children. I would never even think it..........even through the worst of times. Love was always there.
My father never came out and said that, but he said it indirectly, always finding fault with everything I did, and telling me I was a "contemptible little wretch." I didn't even know what that was, but I knew it wasn't good!
Children give their parents soooooo many chances to love them. In many cases their survival depends on it. Hope springs eternal, I guess..........but eventually one does give up (and should.).
I find the human psyche so interesting..........how it can be so cruel or loving. The brain can do so many things to protect the human it belongs to, suppress things, excuse things, rationalize things, endure things, etc.
Sorry to have gotten off-track a bit ULA............I truly hope you can find some peace with your family.....whether that means finally accepting them, or ignoring them, or divorcing them. It's not an easy thing to come to terms with.
You are not off track. I appreciate all you've shared.
I have had some more time to cool down and reflect more on this situation with my parents and how they frickin' annoy me! haha
My thought is that they are probably pretty dang annoyed by me too. And as a result of this mutual annoyance we'll mutually ignore each other for a while.
No harm; no foul.
After the annoyance has worn off totally, I will consciously reassess the situation. Perhaps they will do the same.
Maybe we can find some equilibrium where we see each other more rarely, but no one is really signed off.
As I mentioned, last weekend I went home. I saw some friends from the old neighborhood and stopped to visit with my parents.
When I was there my dad gave me a small packet in an envelope. He said that inside it was a decal sticker for my car.
Oy vey...
Today I went into the back seat of my car where I left it and forgot about it. I opened this thing up and there was indeed a decal sticker. In fact, there were three!
One was a G. Loomis sticker. This is a fish pole manufacturer.
I'd hope that my dad knows this, but I don't advertise if I can avoid it. My shirts and pants and jackets and so forth are all plain and without visible corporate insignia.
I have no intention of advertising for G. Loomis. I don't even use those products.
But here is the real zinger. He included two NRA stickers for my car. FFS! I am a liberal -- a liberal liberal.
Why the frickin' heck?!
Those are certainly getting trashed.
And then he included a totally bizarre item -- a waterproof paper notebook.
The poor guy just does not seem to get it. I am a minimalist. I don't need this stuff!
Argh! Always with the stuff.
iris lilies
6-9-16, 9:28pm
Couldnt you use the NRA sticker ironically? Not on your car, but, say, on your refrigerator.
Ultralight
6-10-16, 7:23am
Couldnt you use the NRA sticker ironically? Not on your car, but, say, on your refrigerator.
No, but I could stick it to the inside of the toilet.
freshstart
6-10-16, 7:49am
by the end, I was being blasted by extreme conservative values by ex-BF, if he'd have given me a NRA sticker, I would've superglued it to his toilet bowel so he'd be urinating on his God-given 2nd amendment rights.
the NRA stickers seem so off, is your dad maybe getting a touch of dementia? He can't possibly be so clueless as to think you would want them
by the end, I was being blasted by extreme conservative values by ex-BF, if he'd have given me a NRA sticker, I would've superglued it to his toilet bowel so he'd be urinating on his God-given 2nd amendment rights.
the NRA stickers seem so off, is your dad maybe getting a touch of dementia? He can't possibly be so clueless as to think you would want them
I would guess that UL's father thinks UL SHOULD want whatever he gives him. Its not about recognizjg the real UL.
But here is the real zinger. He included two NRA stickers for my car. FFS! I am a liberal -- a liberal liberal.
My guess is your father doesn't understand that particularly liberal mindset that the NRA is evil. He probably knows that the NRA is the pre-eminent firearms safety training source and has been for several generations. I suspect that liberal liberals often don't see the entire picture.
Williamsmith
6-10-16, 8:28am
I'm pretty sure Dad knows exactly what he is doing and getting a kick out of it. Don't you have any atheist bumper stickers you can put on his mailbox or some such place? Time to put him in the "barrel".
Couldnt find the original....not a bad cover though.
http://youtu.be/zei3xnivwFk
Ultralight
6-10-16, 8:33am
My guess is your father doesn't understand that particularly liberal mindset that the NRA is evil. He probably knows that the NRA is the pre-eminent firearms safety training source and has been for several generations. I suspect that liberal liberals often don't see the entire picture.
I doubt that.
Read the OP again.
Ultralight
6-10-16, 8:38am
I'm pretty sure Dad knows exactly what he is doing and getting a kick out of it.
I mean... maybe...?
But he doesn't seem like much of a joker. He does not make jokes. And when something is said in an situation and he finds it funny, it is almost like he is taken totally by surprise at his own laughter. Now that I think of that, it is kind of sad in a way.
But nonetheless, I think that he thinks that I am finally becoming the kind of man he always wanted me to be:
-conservative-ish
-into 2nd amendment activities
-fisherman
-outdoorsy
-etc.
I also think that he thinks that voluntary simplicity is/was a phase and I am out of it now because I don't make reference to it much, especially to them.
Autopilot is another thing. Maybe he is just giving me stuff because he knows no other way.
Williamsmith
6-10-16, 8:59am
I mean... maybe...?
But he doesn't seem like much of a joker. He does not make jokes. And when something is said in an situation and he finds it funny, it is almost like he is taken totally by surprise at his own laughter. Now that I think of that, it is kind of sad in a way.
But nonetheless, I think that he thinks that I am finally becoming the kind of man he always wanted me to be:
-conservative-ish
-into 2nd amendment activities
-fisherman
-outdoorsy
-etc.
I also think that he thinks that voluntary simplicity is/was a phase and I am out of it now because I don't make reference to it much, especially to them.
Autopilot is another thing. Maybe he is just giving me stuff because he knows no other way.
You know what UA, I think you ought to try to get to know your dad better. It might help you understand him and give you some peace about why he is, the way he is. Even if in the end, you decide you don't want to be anything like him.
HappyHiker
6-10-16, 9:38am
It's a difficult situation you're in...your Dad sounds like my older brother..and I have done the slow fade...he's an avid gun fanatic, hates all minorities, and is on the Far Right. Everything that came out of our mutual conversation drove the other one wild. Couln't find any common ground. And yet...this man raised two great sons, and One is gay, which is divine retribution, and they have a good relationship, so love trumps his bigotry.
I don't hate this brother but feel, for our mutual peace of mind, it's best to stay away. It's been 18 years without any conversation, though I'm Facebook friends with both of his sons.
I've no hate for him, only sadness that we're on such different paths
Now my parents? Both are gone now, but during their life I felt their love for me even though our points of view were often widely divergent. We stayed in frequent touch and visited though I lived 3000 miles away...yes, there were issues and sometimes tears but I'm far from perfect myself and accepted our differences...but we sure never discussed politics...
Ultralight
6-10-16, 9:40am
The thing is, it ought to be fairly easy for him to get it.
I don't have interest any in stuff and I am a major liberal. Bam! Done. haha
Okay, I know it is a little more complicated than that.
Okay, so this past weekend I went back home for the town's parade and such.
My b-day is in a few days. My parents always give me a couple hundred dollars. This is very nice of them and I am grateful.
The bumper stickers he gave me a few weeks or so ago... yeah... my dad asked: "Did you put those bumper stickers on your car that I gave ya?"
I was like: "No... not yet. I have not gotten around to it."
Remember, these stickers were of a fishing rod company and for the NRA. I don't advertise for corporations if I can avoid it. And I do NOT support the NRA -- as we've noted and discussed on here.
So before I left yesterday evening my dad came over and gave me a cap. On it was the insignia of a fishing rod company -- the same one from the bumper sticker. My dad gave me the hat and was quite pleased with himself for buying it for me. I already own a hat that I like. So I do not need or want this one. Again, he knows I am a minimalist and that I do not really need anything. I was annoyed, but I did not want to jeopardize the $200 he said he intended to give me. So he was like: "Try the hat on! See how it looks."
I did. I was annoyed.
Then he waited until I took the tag off and fitted it to my head (replacing my old hat, which I stuffed in my pocket) to give me the money.
So now I have another possession I don't need or want.
Chicken lady
7-5-16, 9:55am
But you can be bought.
you don't get to complain about the hat. You clearly felt you were being paid to take it and chose to participate in the deal. If you don't feel the transaction worked in your favor, opt out next time.
Ultralight
7-5-16, 10:06am
But you can be bought.
You clearly enjoy pointing this out! lol
you don't get to complain about the hat. You clearly felt you were being paid to take it and chose to participate in the deal. If you don't feel the transaction worked in your favor, opt out next time.
I can complain about the hat. Just because a person participates in something does not mean they can't complain. haha
Opting out probably would have been better...
opting out would've created hurt feelings or caused a scene and left you without the cash. You hold yourself to a higher standard but who's to say you have to do it 100% of the time. No one's watching, it's just you and your conscience
My guess is your father doesn't understand that particularly liberal mindset that the NRA is evil. He probably knows that the NRA is the pre-eminent firearms safety training source and has been for several generations. I suspect that liberal liberals often don't see the entire picture.
That comes from a mindset that attaches people and behaviors to particular labels with no consideration as to the individuals included.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 11:35am
Welp... I think I sped the slow fade up to an instant black-out.
My dad and I had an all-out argument -- raised voices and all -- yesterday at what was supposed to be a nice family lunch at my sis and BIL's house.
I tried to stop it, I really did. I tried to change the subject. "How about that Trump!" (I thought politics would be an less difficult topic!)
I tried to joke it away. "Why don't we talk about something uplifting, like taxes or the flu?"
I tried to brush it under the rug. "Let's just let this topic go..."
But for a variety of reasons the argument happened.
My parents were getting on me about not liking my job and not having any better job prospects. Then they were getting on me about not having enough saved for retirement.
It felt like I was in high school again, like I was a teenager. hahahaha
Then when the topic came to the $3,000 Roth IRA my dad gave me... yowzah. That is what sent it over the top.
My dad opened the IRA with me and told me that the guy at the investment firm would help me invest it wisely. The guy did not. I tried and tried to explain to him what I was supposed to do with this IRA. Eventually I ended up putting it in something called a "life cycle," which basically means the money slowly dries up until there is nothing left of it.
So I have been losing money in this investment for about 18 months, since I opened it.
I told my dad this because he was putting the pressure on.
He was like: "Why didn't you do what I told you with it?!"
I was like: "I tried."
He flipped out. I mean flipped out. I thought he was on the verge of a second heart attack.
Then I just said: "Okay, I guess we're going to have this argument. So let's get it over with. Let's rip off the tape!"
My mom was like: "He just had a bad rep at the firm. He had a bad rep, that's all, a bad rep!" She was trying to smooth it over.
But I just went on to remind him that I forewarned him before opening the IRA that I was not good or informed about investing. I said: "You are putting your money at risk. You may want to reconsider opening this IRA for me."
As usual, he did not listen to me. So I let him open it. After all, he is an adult.
In the matter of minutes everyone was yelling except my pregnant sister. Everyone was cussing up a storm. I told my dad I'd put the IRA back in his name.
I threatened to leave. My dad threatened to leave.
Then he got up and stormed out. My mom went outside to try to talk him into staying. No dice.
My sis went out to try to talk him into staying. No dice.
He said to her: "I will never help him again. Your brother crossed the line. You will never be able to convince me to go back in there with him. I am done with him!"
For good measure I yelled: "And don't give me anymore stuff. I don't want it!"
From about age 17 to around 30, give or take, I was essentially estranged from my dad. I am thinking this incident will mean we will be estranged again.
While the incident was depressing I reflected and I think this might be for the best.
I told my mom: "No great loss. Dad and I don't like each other anyway. And I don't like walking on eggshells around him. He ain't the kind of person I'd hang around by choice with anyway."
So yeah, that is where we're at.
Chicken lady
7-25-16, 12:09pm
I'm sorry ultralite. We don't get to choose our family.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 12:16pm
I'm sorry ultralite. We don't get to choose our family.
Thanks. The depressing part is easing up. And now I am just trying to focus on the positives that come from this development.
I think we all have an image in our minds as to what we want our relationship with our parents to be. I'm willing to bet that 98% of the time, that image and reality are not the same. In you and your Dad's case, the image and reality are wildly and widely different. You've come to the conclusion (and rightly so) that you and your dad can't have a relationship ("we don't like each other anyway"). As helpful as it is to come to that realization, it's so hard. I imagine it's very hard and sad for your mom, too. She loves you both. Be good to yourself, keep your boundaries, grieve as long as you need to.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 3:39pm
I think we all have an image in our minds as to what we want our relationship with our parents to be. I'm willing to bet that 98% of the time, that image and reality are not the same. In you and your Dad's case, the image and reality are wildly and widely different. You've come to the conclusion (and rightly so) that you and your dad can't have a relationship ("we don't like each other anyway"). As helpful as it is to come to that realization, it's so hard. I imagine it's very hard and sad for your mom, too. She loves you both. Be good to yourself, keep your boundaries, grieve as long as you need to.
Thank you. Very kind.
Teacher Terry
7-25-16, 3:48pm
so sorry to hear this but it looks like you tried to stop this really, really hard. Can't you just move the IRA into something that will earn a small amount and not lose $? I don't think you have to be good with investing to do this. There should be plenty of safe options. I never give my adult kids advice on their life unless they ask. It is something I learned from my wonderful parents.
freshstart
7-25-16, 4:09pm
beckyliz hit the nail on the head
rather than lose the IRA money, can you move into something like an S&P 500 index fund? This is easy to do, is good for money you don't need for years, you can move it and not touch it for decades. You can also take it out of the company your dad chose and move it to something with low fees like at Vanguard.
ApatheticNoMore
7-25-16, 4:18pm
yea the 3k thing sounds really manipulative, if your dad wants to give you a gift of 3k then he should just do that, but gifts don't really have strings (and what weird strings, that your investments must be profitable within 18 months, AS IF that was even in one's control, investments aren't always profitable - in fact sometimes pretty much none of them are as the markets are down - if the bond or stock or whatever market is up and one's fund is still losing money it might be a bad fund but so what, get out of it perhaps, but who hasn't made a dumb investment if they have ever invested anything?).
If he wanted something sure not to lose money then T-Bills :). But as is it's just a weird manipulative gift with strings that is disempowering and reduces one to a child.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 4:18pm
...move into something like an S&P 500 index fund...
This is what I will do.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 4:20pm
yea the 3k thing sounds really manipulative, if your dad wants to give you a gift of 3k then he should just do that, but gifts don't really have strings (and what weird strings, that your investments must be profitable within 18 months, AS IF that was even in one's control, investments aren't always profitable - in fact sometimes pretty much none of them are as the markets are down - if the bond or stock or whatever market is up and one's fund is still losing money it might be a bad fund but so what, get out of it perhaps, but who hasn't made a dumb investment if they have ever invested anything?).
If he wanted something sure not to lose money then T-Bills :). But as is it's just a weird manipulative gift with strings that is disempowering and reduces one to a child.
All his gifts come with strings attached, I mean, he gave me a baseball cap last time I was up there and he insisted that I take off the hat I was wearing and put the one he gave me on. It is like in his mind he has done be a favor by giving me this hat and then I have to repay that favor by wearing the hat. It is weird.
freshstart
7-25-16, 4:22pm
does your dad try to control everyone, like your mom, too?
iris lilies
7-25-16, 4:24pm
This is what I will do.
Good. Thats what you should do.
and be forewarned, you still could lose money. But it is all about the long game.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 4:53pm
I am also going to change the beneficiary from my sister to a gun control group!
Ultralight
7-25-16, 4:56pm
does your dad try to control everyone, like your mom, too?
He doesn't try to control my mom. He lets people believe whatever they want. Dad is voting Trump. Mom is voting Jill Stein.
My dad wanted to sell the house, throw everything out, and move to Florida. The dude was dam serious too. But then my mom put that idea down like a sick horse.
I think that the problem is perhaps one of insight. He does not know who I really am or what I value. He and I just have very different values.
Ultralight
7-25-16, 5:50pm
I am going to make the Brady Campaign the beneficiary!
Just make the beneficiary your future niece/nephew.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 1:59pm
Just make the beneficiary your future niece/nephew.
Not this time... Since the money was my dad's I am making the beneficiary The Brady Campaign!
iris lilies
7-26-16, 2:18pm
Ths reminds me that
i need to make a donatin to the NRA...
Ultralight
7-26-16, 2:25pm
Ths reminds me that
i need to make a donatin to the NRA...
You're joking?
This is why I'm planning on leaving my money to animal charities. At least I know it will go to causes I support.
freshstart
7-26-16, 3:37pm
my dad sucked growing up, angry, violent outbursts and he never said he loved me until I was 15 and he was in the hospital and i was holding his hand. i said it and was shocked when he said it back. When I was in college he went on cymbalta for pain, I came home and he was nice, no outbursts, no fists flying, I was in shock. So far, in the 20 come years he's been on it, he's been pretty damn good. We know right away if he stops taking it, though.
So our relationship got better but it's not like we did stuff together or spoke a lot. Then we bought this house so I could more easily help care for my mom and I could downsize. then I got really sick. My father took care of me, last year he drove me to 76 MD appts with no complaints. We sing in the car (very badly), we go out to eat. Turns out he's not bad to do stuff with. It took me getting sick to get to friendship level with my dad.
I hope something like this happens to you. When someone is an asshole, there is a medication for just about every type so there's hope, lol
.
...
I hope something like this happens to you. When someone is an asshole, there is a medication for just about every type so there's hope, lol
What if both parties are assholes, one wonders...
freshstart
7-26-16, 3:44pm
Jane! lol
Ultralight
7-26-16, 3:46pm
What if both parties are assholes, one wonders...
In my situation, it is just my dad that is the problem. So no worries about this issue. :)
What if both parties are assholes, one wonders...
In my situation, it is just my dad that is the problem. So no worries about this issue. :)So, your dad gives you an IRA seeded with a gift of $3000 and you decide to make an organization which, in your mind will offend him, the beneficiary of his gift.
Yeah, he's an asshole.
Teacher Terry
7-26-16, 4:24pm
I would leave it to the new baby. To do what you are planning is just childish.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 4:47pm
So, your dad gives you an IRA seeded with a gift of $3000 and you decide to make an organization which, in your mind will offend him, the beneficiary of his gift.
Yeah, he's an asshole.
You clearly did not read much earlier in the thread.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 4:48pm
I would leave it to the new baby. To do what you are planning is just childish.
My retirement plan at work, which is much larger has my sis as the beneficiary in case of my untimely death. So they would get that, along with everything else in my will.
ApatheticNoMore
7-26-16, 4:53pm
I would leave it to the new baby. To do what you are planning is just childish.
I'd say rather a spoiled cat over a spoiled brat if I had to choose. I.e. some kid getting money for nothing.
So, your dad gives you an IRA seeded with a gift of $3000 and you decide to make an organization which, in your mind will offend him, the beneficiary of his gift.
Yeah, he's an asshole.
it's not a gift, it's a psychological game. Ok receiving 3k is otherwise good, and not a small sum. That much is true. But it's being used to play all sort of manipulative games at this point. If someone gives you a gift you are basically free to use it as you want at that point IMO. Not to mention that their expectations were totally completely unreasonable. They did not invest it in something risk free (T-Bills, government bonds, CDs for the most part) and yet lost their mind when it loses money. I'm not saying it's a good investment it was in, doesn't seem so but shrug, but unless you are investing in something risk free, expecting never to lose money is not even a realistic expectation.
Teacher Terry
7-26-16, 5:19pm
APNM: a few k is not going to spoil a kid. It could be used for education, to buy a house, any number of things. Most likely UL will not even die which is a good thing. He is doing that just to spite his Dad so really acting just as childish and stupid as his Dad. It is more mature to take the higher ground.
Hope this isn't a hijack, but it's a story that's closely related, because it's about giving with strings. This just happened the other day.
DH was a video producer until he "retired"--so a lot of equipment is stored in the garage, unused at this point. One of the guys at the farm we go to all the time is the farm AV guy--he films and produces little video blogs of farm goings-on, video newsletters, and YouTube content about the farm.
DH is crazy about this farm and so he made a gift of some expensive equipment--some microphones and a lighting kit. The AV guy was really thankful and said that he would make good use of them.
So DH was on FB the other day and saw that this AV/farm friend announced on his FB page that he was starting a video business. DH was angry--he said that it made him mad that "C" accepted his equipment and is now profiting from it. The gift, DH's mind, was to benefit the farm and only the farm. DH is now asking for the equipment back! Awkward!
I argued with him over that, telling him that unless he specified conditions to "C" he has no input on what happens to a gift that he freely gives. I was surprised that DH was really upset over it.
I think this goes back to the OP because it's trying to control something that by definition is no longer yours to control.
At the same time, after the dust settles, I hope, UA, you resist the urge to further poison the gift with spite. You might as well be grateful for whatever you can in your relationship and let the rest go.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 5:33pm
Most likely UL will not even die which is a good thing.
I am immortal?
Teacher Terry
7-26-16, 5:56pm
By the time you die your Dad will be gone so no one to spite and the kid long grown etc and no one will give a shit about that tiny bit of $.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 6:00pm
By the time you die your Dad will be gone so no one to spite and the kid long grown etc and no one will give a shit about that tiny bit of $.
If my dad passes on, then I will change the beneficiary.
Teacher Terry
7-26-16, 6:22pm
I guess you can't see how childish and spiteful this is? Oh well it just poisons the person that is taking the action. Also some day your DAd won't be here and then your actions are irreversible.
Ultralight
7-26-16, 6:37pm
I guess you can't see how childish and spiteful this is? Oh well it just poisons the person that is taking the action. Also some day your DAd won't be here and then your actions are irreversible.
Hmmm...
You know, something I really dislike about my mom and dad is just how spiteful and vindictive they are.
I just don't understand it. You're changing the beneficiary to spite/aggravate your dad while at the same time you're planning never talking to him again. How is he going to know that you're punishing him if you're never planning on contacting him again? Sounds like some kind of complicated mind game from here.
Ultralight
7-27-16, 8:55am
Sounds like some kind of complicated mind game from here.
Well, it is. It really is. This kind of thing is fairly normal in my family, which should be obvious throughout this thread.
And while I am not planning to be in contact with my dad I am sure that word will get back to him as I will strategically leak the info to people who will tell him.
But again, more complicated mind game...
I don't like that my parents do these mind games. I don't like how spiteful and vindictive they are either. I really don't.
So I have been rethinking this plan, as I am not really a supporter of the Brady Campaign either (not that I support the NRA!).
But for some time I have been thinking of opening a supplementary retirement vehicle at my work and designating the beneficiary as an atheist group I am part of.
So I may do this, as I was planning to do it before this incident. That way I am not doing something out of spite or vindictiveness.
I'd rather not be a spiteful or vindictive person, even though it comes very natural to me.
With that said, I am not a forgiving person either though.
I am glad to read the above, UL. Spite and vindictiveness are not a way to live a life, even though they feel mighty good in the heat of the moment :D
Edited to add: It takes two to tango. If you really want to cut off contact, then just do that. Strategically leaking info to people who will tell him is not cutting off contact. It is maintaining contact. Dropping the rope, becoming a black hole is cutting off contact. I hope this makes sense.
Ultralight
7-27-16, 9:23am
I am glad to read the above, UL. Spite and vindictiveness are not a way to live a life, even though they feel mighty good in the heat of the moment :D
Yeah, I know. A lifetime of watching my parents be spiteful and vindictive and then being that way myself in response to it has made it a deeply rooted "go-to" tactic.
Really, it just comes very naturally.
But it makes me a toxic person -- which is not ideal! haha
Yeah, I know. A lifetime of watching my parents be spiteful and vindictive and then being that way myself in response to it has made it a deeply rooted "go-to" tactic.
Really, it just comes very naturally.
But it makes me a toxic person -- which is not ideal! haha
Your situation puts me in mind of a poem by Philip Larkin:
https://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/theverse.html
Ultralight
7-27-16, 9:50am
Your situation puts me in mind of a poem by Philip Larkin:
https://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/theverse.html
That link safe for work?
That link safe for work?
Depends where you work. It does include one four-letter word. Larkin does not shy from that sort of thing.
Ultralight
7-27-16, 9:59am
Depends where you work. It does include one four-letter word. Larkin does not shy from that sort of thing.
I will real it after work. Thanks!
I've always liked that poem, and followed its advice.
ApatheticNoMore
7-27-16, 12:23pm
my bf sent me that poem.
I spend a lot of time on another board at www.etiquettehell.com (http://www.etiquettehell.com) (in fact, I believe someone here mentioned it several years ago, which is how I found it). At any rate, there is a lot of information there on how, when and why to employ the Cut Direct. When a relationship has become so toxic that you no longer want anything to do with that other person for your own health and perhaps safety, it's time to put the CD into place. It's not the Slow Fade, but an immediate break. As a prior poster above said, you become a black hole. All contact is cut off - no answered phone calls, emails, social media, etc. If someone sends you a letter or gift, it immediately goes into the trash with no response. Emails are automatically routed to a folder you don't use. If you do happen to be at the same place, you look right through them as if they don't exist. It's pretty hardcore, but some situations call for it. Just some food for thought.
Ultralight
7-29-16, 4:53pm
I spend a lot of time on another board at www.etiquettehell.com (http://www.etiquettehell.com) (in fact, I believe someone here mentioned it several years ago, which is how I found it). At any rate, there is a lot of information there on how, when and why to employ the Cut Direct. When a relationship has become so toxic that you no longer want anything to do with that other person for your own health and perhaps safety, it's time to put the CD into place. It's not the Slow Fade, but an immediate break. As a prior poster above said, you become a black hole. All contact is cut off - no answered phone calls, emails, social media, etc. If someone sends you a letter or gift, it immediately goes into the trash with no response. Emails are automatically routed to a folder you don't use. If you do happen to be at the same place, you look right through them as if they don't exist. It's pretty hardcore, but some situations call for it. Just some food for thought.
Yowzah! You ever done this?
Yowzah! You ever done this?
Did it to my sister for well over a decade.
Ultralight
7-29-16, 5:11pm
Did it to my sister for well over a decade.
Can you tell me about this? I mean, what happened? Was it incredibly painful for you? For her?
Can you tell me about this? I mean, what happened? Was it incredibly painful for you? For her?
My sister was a criminal, in an abusive relationship with her husband.
They robbed my parents and I multiple times. Her husband made credible threats of violence against us, sufficient to get a protective order.
She sold off several of her children to support her "lifestyle". She killed several others in the womb when her plans to sell them didn't work out. I ended up raising the two she kept, as she basically dropped them off on my doorstep moments before the police dragged her and her husband off for a while.
So I very politely arranged to not ever have her or her husband in my life in any fashion, as I did not want to bear the risk they presented towards my child and wife. Once the husband had been dead for a decade (apparently someone told his drug-dealing buddies that he had scammed where he was hiding...), and my sister had lived on the straight-and-narrow for a similar-ish length of time, and my child was safely out of my home, in order to keep my mother from weeping so much, I will now say hello to my sister via email/Facebook, or be at a restaurant for an hour or so with her, not in my home area.
Some people are beyond toxic, they are outright dangerous. If I'd seen the husband within a few hundred yards of me during that period, I would have ended him.
Teacher Terry
7-29-16, 5:27pm
Oh Bae, don't blame you at all. Did her kids turn out ok? I really hope so.
freshstart
7-29-16, 6:50pm
Bae, I am very sorry you went through that. Her kids were damn lucky you took them in.
Oh Bae, don't blame you at all. Did her kids turn out ok? I really hope so.
The two she kept turned out "relatively OK", though they have some issues they are still dealing with. They could have turned out far far worse. The ones she sold to be adopted out turned out much better, but they had stable loving families throughout their whole development. My sister has reformed herself, but I'm unlikely to ever be close to her again, nor put myself in a situation where she could injure me or my family.
My poor wife almost committed herself to an institution she was so destroyed by something my sister did.
Not going to happen again.
A few years ago (while my sister was still very unreliable), my mother, who lives on this remote island as well, where my wife and I moved in part to escape the danger presented by the sister/brother-in-law, invited the sister out for a few weeks to stay with her. In her house. Which I own.
I told her if she ever did that again without warning us in advance so we could be elsewhere, I'd either evict her, or we'd pack up and move to Europe and not leave a forwarding address - her choice...
It leads to troublesome family dynamics where you have a parent who doesn't want to disown their child opposed to two parents who don't want their child and spouse endangered. There's not really a good outcome likely.
freshstart
7-30-16, 10:12am
my brother can be a very emotionally destructive person and he is never there when he is needed. My shrink has been telling me to do what Beckyliz says to do for years but I just can't do it. Even after when I was just out of the hospital and my dad had fallen and had 3 brain bleeds and had just gotten out of the hospital, he was confused, kept falling and he's a big guy. I pleaded with my brother to come home for a few days to help me get him off the floor. Not a single response. I vowed then I would cut him off but I relented the next time he came here.
I did do the slow fade, he was too self-absorbed to even notice I was gone.
ApatheticNoMore
7-30-16, 10:39am
my brother can be a very emotionally destructive person and he is never there when he is needed. My shrink has been telling me to do what Beckyliz says to do for years but I just can't do it.
how clueless is your shrink? I mean most people if they had been pushing something for years and it hadn't happened, wouldn't keep trying (that's different than encouragement where you just push people a bit further than they are willing to go in something they kind of want to do anyway, which might be a more appropriate role for a shrink). You have your reasons and your lights and your inner wisdom (oh I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to cut people off sometimes, I'm just saying it's not what you've chosen. Shrink should just respect that already IMO.). Just if someone is dangerous stay safe.
I did do the slow fade, he was too self-absorbed to even notice I was gone.
I don't think the point of any of these things is to get them to notice or get even (vengeance haha) but rather for oneself. Vengeance in these kind of personal matters is poison, self-protection (yes even if "just" emotional self-protection) is just that.
Chicken lady
7-30-16, 11:29am
I'm "slow fading" dh's mom.
i've had it. The woman has no empathy, she's cruel to dh sister in law, she made a huge deal about how horrible it was that she couldn't be there for Dd's wedding because we rescheduled it (for major location and financial reasons) and then when dh told her "if you want to sit down with me, I'll show you the pictures and tell you about it" she said "oh, I saw some of he pictures. I can look some other time." And went off to chop peppers for the salad we were going to eat in three hours - there were 9 other people free to chop peppers.
But now, dh uncle is really sick, he may die. He's very yellow, there is something going on with his gall bladder for sure but he isn't' communicating much. And she keeps calling to tell us he's dying, of cirrhosis. "He won't tell us anything, but I know it's cirrhosis. I told him if he didn't quit drinking (with dinner, and at celebrations, mostly wine, I've never seen the man tipsy) it was going to kill him. And now it is." And she sounds gleeful! She's so happy that she's going to be proven right. (And if he dies of say,pancreatic cancer, she will still tell the story of how he died of cirrhosis even though she told him to stop drinking every time one of us touches or mentions alcohol.)
and i can't stand it anymore. And she's so self absorbed, that as long as she continues to get gifts from us on the appropriate occaisions and I continue to show up with dh when he visits (which I will, because he wants to see his dad and it's my job to keep that woman at bay when he does.) She will never notice that I'm treating her like a rather rude stranger on a plane. So I'm kicking myself for not starting earlier.
iris lilies
7-30-16, 11:46am
Just to provide perspective, I was born into the right family and there has never been a relative on whom I want to practice the slow fade. But then, I am not very close to any of my relatives although I am fond of them. Perhaps my "fond at a distance" practice is serving me well.
I dont even mind my inlaws although FIL's girlfriend is a bit much. But fortunately I do not have to interact with her more often than once every few years. DH's siblings are on the hook to deal with her, poor them.
We try to avoid drama, both my side and DH's side are stable for the most part. Weve been fortunate to have few of the life stressors that bring out the crazy: health problems, addictins, money problems, death althought certainly we have some of all of them! Cant avoid it.
freshstart
7-30-16, 1:47pm
I don't think the point of any of these things is to get them to notice or get even (vengeance haha) but rather for oneself. Vengeance in these kind of personal matters is poison, self-protection (yes even if "just" emotional self-protection) is just that.
this is true and I had lost sight of that.
I kind of did for a while with my aunt - she lives several states away. As my father (her brother) was in the last couple years of his life, she said some very hurtful things to my and my brother about my mother and my parents' relationship. I didn't want the drama, so I just went silent for a few years. We're back to the very occasional email or comment on FB (we're not friends, but on common friends' pages). The relationship will never be the same, though.
Wow. He ain't very nice to be around. Yeah, like you said, if he weren't your father would you give him the time of day? He sounds like my grandfather... whom I haven't spoken to in 20 years or more. If you want to keep trying dialog is always the best option. He seems to rant a lot but what could you say or how could you say things that might be more politically minded? Meaning, if you don't want a loaded gun in your car (that is completely understandable!!) Let him know that though gun laws may be what they are but in your vehicle you have your own rules. He is of course welcome to drive in his own car or if he can't then like many things in life he can suck it up and leave the gun at home. If he chooses not to come because of this... well you won't have to worry about him ruining a nice afternoon!
I'm sorry you are having to deal with difficult parents. You are definitely not alone. If you do a brief online search you will find articles and forums to help and support you. Good luck!
Ultralight
8-22-16, 10:00am
So apparently my mom's doctor thinks she might have lymphoma. They are running the tests this week, I think.
I am still not on speaking terms with them since the big argument over the Roth IRA not being invested properly/earning enough money.
So I heard about this possible cancer thing through my sis and BIL. My mom told them and apparently said: "Do not tell you brother I might have cancer or that they are testing me for cancer. You can only tell him I am getting tests, but not what they are for."
.
So I heard about this possible cancer thing through my sis and BIL. My mom told them and apparently said: "Do not tell you brother I might have cancer or that they are testing me for cancer. You can only tell him I am getting tests, but not what they are for."
Sounds like she's traumatized enough already.
Ultralight
8-22-16, 11:08am
My sis says that she is maintaining her pharmaceutical induced optimism quite well.
Apparently this is weighing heavier on my dad.
catherine
8-22-16, 11:25am
Apparently this is weighing heavier on my dad.
Of course. I am sorry to hear this, and I'm hoping for the best for your family, UA.
UA, accept that you are still connected to your parents - you would not be posting such an update if you were completely detached. Let go of whatever has offended you and move on to being and acting the person you would like to be responding to you when you are being obnoxious. It is so much easier and less stressful. Take charge of your thoughts and actions. Be who you want to be because it is right for you and not for or in reaction to anyone else. Verbal or other abuse, simply walk away and toss it off like a bag of garbage.
freshstart
8-22-16, 1:41pm
oy vey, I am sorry to hear this news and sorry you have to figure out how to deal with it
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