View Full Version : Faith and Denominations
It seems to me that there are so many gay men (and I do NOT mean pediophiles, just plain vanilla gay men) in the priesthood that I would hardly worry about the official church position on this. They don't! My friend who is a practicing Catholic and who also is gay is celibate, so he's not conflicted there.
Are you going to find any major religion that has everything you wish and agree with? What if it is your spiritual task to consider the doctrines that the church puts out? I would think that much of the spiritual work inherent in belonging to established religion requires that one wrestle with these pronouncements from God (or so they are represented by the Church.) But of course, you are right, you have to have an affinity for the church you are choosing.
The whole nasty business with child abusing priests is typical of self-preserving bureauocratic organizations. The Catholic Church is a huge institution, and there are good things and bad things that come with that.
Me, I'm not a believer, but I love the Catholics for their fabulous architecture in my city. Within a mile of me we've got many ethnic Catholic churches built 100+ years ago and the Diocese, while having to close some down due to dwindling attendance, is keeping up buildings pretty well. That's always how I evaluate anything: historical preservation.
as he (DH) really had no interest (in church) and really did not want us to attend either. (my failing).
Curious as to why you would consider this "your" failing? Isn't he his own person with his own beliefs and desires about religion? Isn't he a big boy who can make his own choices as to where and how he wants to worship (or not worship)? Wouldn't he support your going alone to church? This shouldn't have been your burden to transform him IMHO. Nor his to transform you.
As far as what spiritual path to follow (or not), I think if you feel a tug toward Catholism then you should look for a more progressive church that reflects your values rather than changing religions to something like Buddhism. How would that satisfy your spiritual ideals ifyou believe in Christian Theology? Or maybe look for a church like the Unitarians which house and accept many religion beliefs and ideals under one roof. That may be a better place to follow your Christian ideals but be in a more supportive atmosphere. As an Agnostic myself, I have no leanings one way or another but I am of the understanding that most Christians feel that, to be a Christian, you need to have those believes in God, Jesus, etc..
I read, so I don't know if this is true or not, that "many" Christians (and maybe others, but this was about Christians) don't actually totally BELIEVE what their church preaches, but it's a form of community for them. Maybe they were raised in it and have known many of the people for years and years, and it's a good place to raise their children. They feel comfortable there, even if it doesn't meet all their needs.
I'm UU, and while I've only been UU for about 15+ years, I know it doesn't meet ALL my needs, but I do accept the principles of UU, I'm comfortable there, and I know there's probably no other place that will meet my needs any better. We have good friends there. I take the Beliefnet quiz every so often (Belief-O-Matic) and the top five almost always come out: UU, Reform Judaism, Neo Pagan, Liberal Quaker, and Hinduism. Occasionally Liberal Christianity shows up there as well. It's useful for me to see "where I'm at" any any given time ...
I have been Catholic for most of my life, through periods of disallusionment and disagreement, but I always come back to what has been my home parish for the past 40 years or so. As Irislily said, you will almost always find some points to disagree with in religious dogmas, but for me it comes down to the community. My large, inner city parish is wonderfully diverse and just as wonderfully warm and accepting. I live alone, and being part of that community means a lot to me. So I tune out the Pope's more reactionary pronouncements and concentrate on the real message of the Gospel, to love and care for each other. I have done some reading into Buddhist philosophy and think that is an excellent way to pattern your life, and quite in keeping with Christianity. Who can find anything unChristian in the 5 Moral Principles: No killing, no stealing, no lying, no abuse of sex, no intoxication? Or the 6 Perfections: Generosity, moral conduct, patience, courage, mental concentration and wisdom?
As for the abusive priest scandal, I feel sorry for all of the really good men in the priesthood, who are doing their best to live up to their vows and are being tarnished by the bad ones and the gutless bishops who tried to cover that evil up. The trouble with any really large organization is that it ends up being run by people who are seduced by power and will do nearly anything to gain and keep it. The rest of us do our best to stay out of their way and live our lives as well as we can.
I suppose it depends on what gifts you are hoping to enjoy from belonging to a certain faith, church, parish, denomination.
I was raised Catholic, but am much more interested these days in community service, openness, acceptance of all, and the opportunity for a deep spiritual connection inside. It doesn't really matter to me where I find these things, whether they're in the meditation room at our Buddhist temple or in the back pews at my childhood Catholic church. I have a great admiration for lots of different seekers, and find God in many different places.
What are you seeking? What are you hoping a stronger denominational connection will bring into your life? Where's the best place to find these things?
This is where I would start, anyway.
If you are seeking service, oppenness and acceptance, try the United Church of Christ - www.ucc.org (http://www.ucc.org) - theme is 'God is still speaking...' Many of the churches are open and affirming, they are the forerunners in many justice issues (e.g., civil rights, women's right, ordination of women and gays) and will not require that you agree to a particular 'creed.' To be searching and 'on the journey' is enough :)
(Full disclosure - I'm an ordained UCC minister. But more into spirituality than 'organized religion.' You might want to read recent books by Barbara Brown Taylor - she paints beautiful imagery and stories of spirituality 'in the world' - finding God where you are, rather than in a church building....
domestic goddess
4-22-11, 1:52pm
If I can jump in here, I would like to second a UCC church. I belong to a merged UCC/Presbyterian Church. Our church is "open and affirming" and "more light". LGBT members are welcome, and we do have a Lesbian minister.Our Lead Pastor is a woman, so there are really no positions in the church that are closed to women. I understand you about the difficulties with your dh. My dh was very antagonistic toward any Church, because of things that happened in his long-ago past that he just wouldn't let go of. It was easier to stay away from church for years than to fight with him all the time. When DD was in fourth grade, she found our current church, and I am grateful to her for that. In the later years before my dh died, he would come to church on special occasions with me, and became well acquainted with some of the male members.
Chiming in late here, but just wanted to add: I have a dear friend who I was shocked to find out attends a Catholic church; she has always seemed spiritual to me but not the least bit into pre-formulated ideas or Christ-based thinking. When I asked her about this, she said that she loves the pagentry and tradition and long-standing solemnity of this church ... not exactly in the way of being In it, but more as an appreciative observer, much like what Iris Lily says about the architecture. So she basically attends the church to steep herself in the beauty of the buildings, the music, the community, the ritual, the search for joy and light, she has her own private religious experience while surrounded with this beauty and grace ... and leaves the rest of the faith-based doctrine to others. Seems to work out just fine for her.
There are other catholic churches other than the Roman Catholic church. These are considered "break away" catholic churches, but many are very open to women in the ministry, married priesthood, etc. You might consider doing some research to see if one of these may be an option for you.
I have been where you are. For me, the answer was coming to some personal conclusions- the most important being that my spirituality and faith are different than my religion and church. To me religion and church are man-made and I can pick and choose what building and what rituals I want based on the other people in attendance, the location, the "basic" tenets of the particular religion, etc. My spirituality and faith, on the other hand, are MINE! They are internal and exist regardless of any church and/or particular religion. I don't need to declare a religious affiliation or church membership in order to have my spirituality and faith. This separation really has allowed me to enjoy, attend and learn about various other religions and churchs.
As for the politics of churchs (again, man-made) - I renounced my official membership to the church that I attend due to a political stance the elders took WITHOUT first consulting the congregation. Long story short, I am no longer an official member of the church - no longer able to participate on committees, help where I used to, etc. I still attend the church - when I choose too - because of the personal fellowship that I still receive.
Your words could be out of my mouth, too. I was a VERY devout Catholic girl--reading Lives of the Saints, I had an altar in my bedroom, 12 years of Catholic schooling, aspired to be a nun.
When I got married, I joined my husband's church, because his family is Scottish Presbyterian, and they would not have even entered a Catholic church. I wanted to be "bigger" than that, and felt that Christians are Christians, we all say the same Lord's Prayer and Apostle's Creed, so I raised my family Presbyterian.
My mother died a week from her 69th birthday, and I was compelled to go to a church on the day that would have been her birthday, and it was a Monday, so I went to a Catholic mass. I walked out with the biggest smile on my face---all those memories of the chant-like prayers, the incense, the Mystery of the Eucharist... I felt like I was home.
So I proceeded to try to join the church while going to daily Mass.. but you know how life is.. and you know how the Catholic Church is--it was easier to get into college than rejoin the church!! All of a sudden I had to dig up confirmation certificates, birth certificates, marriage certificates, get remarried in the Catholic Church etc. etc., so I just dropped the ball.
Now, years later, I'm still in denominational Limbo, although I just joined a new Presbyterian church we've been going to. Both my DH and I feel very conflicted--even he feels a pull toward the Catholic Church (!!), and we've been wondering if you can be a member of TWO churches! I don't know... but I do know that while my body belongs to the Protestants, my soul belongs to the Catholics.
If I were to rejoin the Catholic church, I would do it at a top level, meaning, I would just ignore the dogma that is a little too strict for me--but why throw the baby out with the bath water?
The Storyteller
5-10-11, 8:24pm
I grew up UPC (United Pentecostal, ultra conservative tongue talkers) and for a while studied for the ministry, became disenchanted and looked around until I found UCC, although Beliefnet says I'm Unitarian (a crock if you ask me). But both of my oldest grown children have converted Catholicism and that quite passionately. My son briefly flirted with becoming a monk, but decided he likes women too much and instead now has a masters in theology and is teaching at a Catholic school.
Where did I go wrong.
I've also been incorporating Buddhist principles into my spirituality and that has been what has been giving me some inner fortitude during this process. I just don't know that I could abandon Christianity and solely pursue Buddhism either. Needless to say, I'm confused! lol!
I did not see this before I posted about Christian Buddhism. I was raised Protestant and don't want to abandon my faith either.
Also, I am just dumbfounded by the array of denominations available out there. I was raised Southern Baptist with all the bells and whistles, but the older I become, the less comfortable I feel with all of the rules and regs of different denominations. There are many different branches of baptist and some won't let you "join" without being re-baptized and such! Hogwash!!! This is totally senseless to me. I don't question my beliefs, why should they???? I won't fall in with the crowd anymore to just be attached to something. The Buddhist believe in non-attachment which I like :)
So, anyway, I have put that behind me and just call myself a Christian. ( I actually tried to get my name taken off the church rolls and the pastor wouldn't do it. I suspect it had to do with "the numbers" more than anything else).
I am trying to be open-minded enough to just "be" and let the religious (used loosely) fight it out. This is why I feel that being a Christian Buddhist is a good fit for me.
I agree totally with Sissy:
And I want to add that the Zen Buddhist Thich Nhat Hanh as been a great influence in my life, and so I consider myself ultimately to be ambi-denominational with Buddhist leanings. A lot of great Catholics, including priests, identify with Buddhists--such as the great Thomas Merton.
I truly believe that no one has to identify with any religion in a dualistic way. The 12-step advice "Take what you like and leave the rest" comes to mind. I consider myself to be ambi-denominational with Buddhist leanings. But the label isn't important. They don't ask for an ID card when you go to mass. I have some internal battles as to whether or not I should take the Eucharist, but I do anyway.
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