In Columbus...

[Ultralight]

Things might get crazy.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tyree-king-13-fatally-shot-police-columbus-ohio-n648671

[Ultralight]

Well, the normal topic planned for the Advocating For Social Justice class I am in tonight has been changed. We will now be discussing the Tyre King case...

Thoughts?

[LDAHL]

My thoughts are that if a cop is confronting an armed robbery suspect, and that suspect pulls what appears to be a gun, what happens next isn't necessarily the result of systemic racism.

[Ultralight]

My thoughts are that if a cop is confronting an armed robbery suspect, and that suspect pulls what appears to be a gun, what happens next isn't necessarily the result of systemic racism.

I think that my profs and classmates will question the police account of the events.

[Alan]

I think that my profs and classmates will question the police account of the events.Of course they will, narratives must be maintained.

[Ultralight]

I saw footage of a community meeting in a black neighborhood church. The Chief of Police, mayor, and other big wigs were there.

Folks were very upset with the way this whole this was handled and how its aftermath is being handled. People really wanted to know what the police and city govt would do to prevent this from happening. They were calling for new protocols.

[iris lilies]

AlaN, you have to pay taxes for your state Unversity to hold the course "Advocating for Social Justice?"
oy vey.

[iris lilies]

Of course they will, narratives must be maintained.

Most people still believe that Michael Brown in Ferguson had his hands up when he was shot by a police officer.

[Ultralight]

The school of social work has had huge banners that say Black Lives Matter hung up outside.

I am a yuuuuuge liberal. I really am. You all know this.

My concern though is the unknowns. There are just so many unknowns in this case. The investigations of the incident just started, really. You know?

I think that this incident did not happen in a vacuum. There are massive, far-reaching social problems to take into consideration too.

Thoughts?

[iris lilies]

I saw footage of a community meeting in a black neighborhood church. The Chief of Police, mayor, and other big wigs were there.

Folks were very upset with the way this whole this was handled and how its aftermath is being handled. People really wanted to know what the police and city govt would do to prevent this from happening. They were calling for new protocols.

So?

[Ultralight]

So?

The news did not show anyone asking or suggesting that parents be held accountable, even in part.

[LDAHL]

The school of social work has had huge banners that say Black Lives Matter hung up outside.

I am a yuuuuuge liberal. I really am. You all know this.

My concern though is the unknowns. There are just so many unknowns in this case. The investigations of the incident just started, really. You know?

I think that this incident did not happen in a vacuum. There are massive, far-reaching social problems to take into consideration too.

Thoughts?

If there are "so many unknowns" and the investigation has just started, what thoughts are you asking for? For that matter, what value can be derived from a discussion in an Advocating for Social Justice class? It can't be the merits of this particular case. Just general thoughts on officer-involved shootings?

Sometimes it's just about two scared guys on a dark street making split-second decisions. No greater social significance than that.

Wisconsin law requires all such cases to be investigated by the State Department of Justice rather than the involved local police. Is that how it works in Ohio?

[Ultralight]

If there are "so many unknowns" and the investigation has just started, what thoughts are you asking for?

Hey, I know a good question when I see one. And this is one.


For that matter, what value can be derived from a discussion in an Advocating for Social Justice class?

This is probably going to be my question to the class. But I don't think it will be taken well by anyone. I know the prof wants to talk about this phenomenon as a trend. She had us read several articles about several of these types of cases.

Normally I participate in class, both to help in my learning but also for the participation points. Though I might keep quiet tonight. A straight, white, male urging folks to wait before they make judgments might not go over well.



It can't be the merits of this particular case. Just general thoughts on officer-involved shootings?

Maybe... yeah.


Wisconsin law requires all such cases to be investigated by the State Department of Justice rather than the involved local police. Is that how it works in Ohio?

That is probably a good practice up there in WI. Not sure about Ohio. I may ask this in class tonight...

[LDAHL]

That is probably a good practice up there in WI. Not sure about Ohio. I may ask this in class tonight...

I believe it came about after a fairly ugly incident in Milwaukee. The idea was it might make the public more comfortable with the conclusions. I'm not sure whether that's often possible, however, given the emotions involved.

[Ultralight]

When I was a kid, I dunno, maybe like 12 years old or so, my mom showed me this movie called 12 Angry Men.

She was like: "Watch this. There are some real life lessons in here."

I watched it. And it made me a skeptical person.

I remain skeptical.

[LDAHL]

When I was a kid, I dunno, maybe like 12 years old or so, my mom showed me this movie called 12 Angry Men.

She was like: "Watch this. There are some real life lessons in here."

I watched it. And it made me a skeptical person.

I remain skeptical.

Incidents like this often result in situations where "Twelve Angry Men" meets "Bonfire of the Vanities".

[Alan]

A straight, white, male urging folks to wait before they make judgments might not go over well.
I think that says more for the current Advocating for Social Justice climate than it does for the merits of any real or perceived injustice.

[Ultralight]

I think that says more for the current Advocating for Social Justice climate than it does for the merits of any real or perceived injustice.

What do you mean?

My main thought is that we need to wait until we have more info on this individual case.

But I also think we don't need to wait to get more info to start trying to figure out ways to make a better society where things like this are much less likely to happen.

[Alan]

What do you mean?


You stressed 'straight, white, male' as if they were disqualifiers in expressing a rational opinion, and I think you're right. The current advocacy climate is not open to rational opinions from anyone, especially someone like you.

[Ultralight]

You stressed 'straight, white, male' as if they were disqualifiers in expressing a rational opinion, and I think you're right. The current advocacy climate is not open to rational opinions from anyone, especially someone like you.

I am a little alarmed that we kind of agree.

[catherine]

When I was a kid, I dunno, maybe like 12 years old or so, my mom showed me this movie called 12 Angry Men.

She was like: "Watch this. There are some real life lessons in here."

I watched it. And it made me a skeptical person.

I remain skeptical.

Interesting and slightly OT, but that play is close to my heart--I was in it in a local production when I was young, and played the Henry Fonda role.

I recalled my experience decades later when I was in a jury and I absolutely felt a sense deja vu. It was an amazing witness to the power of our personal filters when evaluating "objective" evidence. We can't escape it, but we can do our best to be aware of our own biases.

Turns out that jury was very similar to 12 Angry Men. We went from a 9 guilty, 3 not guilty to a unanimous acquittal. The Prosecutor literally broke down and sobbed in the courtroom. I guess the defendant did as well, for different reasons.

[Ultralight]

Interesting and slightly OT, but that play is close to my heart--I was in it in a local production when I was young, and played the Henry Fonda role.

I recalled my experience decades later when I was in a jury and I absolutely felt a sense deja vu. It was an amazing witness to the power of our personal filters when evaluating "objective" evidence. We can't escape it, but we can do our best to be aware of our own biases.

Turns out that jury was very similar to 12 Angry Men. We went from a 9 guilty, 3 not guilty to a unanimous acquittal. The Prosecutor literally broke down and sobbed in the courtroom. I guess the defendant did as well, for different reasons.

Yeah, it was a heck of a movie. I have watched it a couple times since. It helped me to understand critical thinking and such.

That experience you went through as a juror is wild!

[LDAHL]

I am a little alarmed that we kind of agree.

This may be the beginning of a beautiful process of transformation. Let us know how it goes.

[Ultralight]

This may be the beginning of a beautiful process of transformation. Let us know how it goes.

Something interesting...

Granted, I am only a month into class. But never has a social issue been deemed the responsibility of an individual or of parents.

This is quite intriguing.

Regarding the Tyre King case it was all about the cops, social workers, witnesses, society at large, government officials, and on and on.

One lady did ask why Tyre was out at that time on a school night (it was like 8pm). No one picked up that question though.

[catherine]

Something interesting...

Granted, I am only a month into class. But never has a social issue been deemed the responsibility of an individual or of parents.

This is quite intriguing.

Regarding the Tyre King case it was all about the cops, social workers, witnesses, society at large, government officials, and on and on.

One lady did ask why Tyre was out at that time on a school night (it was like 8pm). No one picked up that question though.

I have to give iris lilies credit for the recommendation for the book Hillbilly Elegy. Great book, and it addresses those very questions. He talks about all the social and economic reasons for the way his people acted the way they did (i.e., self-destructively) but he also talks about how many did it to themselves as well, with absolutely no work ethic and abundance of a sense of entitlement.

I love the lyrics of one of the old West Side Story songs: Gee, Officer Krupke:

Dear kindly Sergeant Krupke,
You gotta understand,
It's just our bringin' up-ke
That gets us out of hand.
Our mothers all are junkies,
Our fathers all are drunks.
Golly Moses, natcherly we're punks!

There are no simple answers. We need to fix what's wrong with the system, but there's also a lot of truth to the fact that we are in large part masters of our fate.

[LDAHL]

Something interesting...

Granted, I am only a month into class. But never has a social issue been deemed the responsibility of an individual or of parents.

This is quite intriguing.

Regarding the Tyre King case it was all about the cops, social workers, witnesses, society at large, government officials, and on and on.

One lady did ask why Tyre was out at that time on a school night (it was like 8pm). No one picked up that question though.

I could see how individual responsibility and accountability would be hard sells in the world of identity politics.

[Ultralight]

I could see how individual responsibility and accountability would be hard sells in the world of identity politics.

I think we need an all-of-the-above approach -- something comprehensive.

But they appear to really ignore the idea of making things happen for yourself (even to the small degree that most people can).

And I just want to be like: "Look, if we don't put some responsibility on the parents, then we got to ask why are people having kids anyway? Just popping them out willy-nilly to become defacto wards of the state?"

For instance, there was talk of breakfast programs in schools -- something I agree with as long as it is fruits, veggies, and whole grains.

But I did ask this to the prof/my classmates: "If we give the kids lunch and breakfast, then why not give them free dinner too, and transport and school clothes and books and supplies and do all the disciplining and on and on and on?"

Interestingly: A mother in the class, perhaps around my age, said: "We already do all that stuff, Jake."
Then she went on to enumerate each thing and how it is handed out.

It was eye-opening.

[catherine]

Unfortunately there is no consistency in values in terms of how family treats their own in this country.

Two examples in my own family:

a) When we (my DH and kids) were "in the crapper" (a frequent saying in our house in the 80s and 90s), I say with undying gratitude to my MIL that she saved our hides on numerous occasions. She was so extremely generous as a protector of the family, despite the fact that she made her living as a clerk in Macy's. She almost literally gave us the shirt off her back.

b) OTOH, when my alcoholic father left, my mother was left as a single mother of 4 kids in the 60s when there were few opportunities for women. She went to her FIL for financial assistance to get her by until she could get on her feet. He owned a large insurance firm and had plenty of means. He told her to go on welfare. She never did, but instead she wound up remarrying for survival, and I remember some very, very lean times.

I once did a cultural market research study on the topic of schizophrenia with Indian psychiatrists, and learned that in India, families take responsibility for their children. They don't stigmatize illness, they take it in stride. They embrace and protect their families. Here, we emancipate ourselves from our families when the going gets tough, so unless we want the streets littered with homeless and poor, the government has to step in. But which came first, the chicken or the egg? Have we evolved into a climate where what should be the safety net has become the first line of defense because families have abdicated responsibility? Or is it a good thing that we don't have to be saddled with family matters that "aren't our problems"?

[iris lilies]

Unfortunately there is no consistency in values in terms of how family treats their own in this country.

Two examples in my own family:

a) When we (my DH and kids) were "in the crapper" (a frequent saying in our house in the 80s and 90s), I say with the undying gratitude to my MIL that she saved our hides on numerous occasions. She was so extremely generous as a protector of the family, despite the fact that she made her living as a clerk in Macy's. She almost literally gave us the shirt off her back.

b) OTOH, when my alcoholic father left, my mother was left as a single mother of 4 kids in the 60s when there were few opportunities for women. She went to her FIL for financial assistance to get her by until she could get on her feet. He owned a large insurance firm and had plenty of means. He told her to go on welfare. She wound up remarrying for survival, and I remember some very, very lean times.

I once did a cultural market research on the topic of schizophrenia with Indian psychiatrists, and learned that in India, families take responsibility for their children. They don't stigmatize illness, they take it in stride. They embrace and protect their families. Here, we emancipate ourselves from our families when the going gets tough, so unless we want the streets littered with homeless and poor, the government has to step in. But which came first, the chicken or the egg? Have we evolved into a climate where what should be the safety net has become the first line of defense?

It is a sweeping generalization to say that people in the U.S. leave their families when the families get into trouble.

There are many tales on the MMM site of children tiving money to parents and siblings. One of the problems is in truly identifyfing when things are "tough." Too many families cant separate needs from wants, can't manage the money they have, can't or wont take responsibility for their own lives when it is easier to blame oers and to ask for handouts.

sometimes it is a good thing to leave families who will drag you down, families who live lives of instant gratification buying the latest blingy thing.

Extreme mental illness, thats a tough one. Few single families can provide full support for this situation. I had a long talk with a father who is supporting his bi polar son theough a paid apartment and (I,presume) an allowence, although the young man may be getting social security. That looked like a successful support system to me, a mix of parentsl and governmental agencies.

[catherine]

It is a sweeping generalization to say that people leave their families when the families get into trouble.


sometimes it is a good rhng to leave families who will drag you down, who jave balues about indwpendance and financial management that differ from yours.

I didn't mean it to be a sweeping generalization: that's why I gave two examples of both sides of the spectrum from my own family. Of course there are tons of people like my MIL. But sometimes the "rugged individual" attitudes of this country carries over to feelings about family members.

This was backed up in my research with the Indian psychiatrists. For the most part they were flummoxed by the "hands-off" attitudes of family members.

And it's true that we should not be enablers of irresponsibility either. So, in short, I'm not disagreeing with you, IL. There are countless grandparents raising grandchildren and countless sons and daughters devoting their lives to end-of-life care of their parents. I was just wondering about the role of the government with regard to what UA was saying about people expecting their kids to be fed, AND clothed by the government. In this regard, the government becomes extended family.

[Ultralight]

sometimes it is a good thing to leave families who will drag you down, families who live lives of instant gratification buying the latest blingy thing.

Amen sistah!

[Ultralight]

My gf's family is always asking her for money. They have sob stories for days. She usually gives them the money. They promise to pay her back but very, very rarely do, and never on time.

I told her if we ever got hitched there would be an abrupt stop to her giveaways!

[iris lilies]

I didn't mean it to be a sweeping generalization: that's why I gave two examples of both sides of the spectrum from my own family. Of course there are tons of people like my MIL. But sometimes the "rugged individual" attitudes of this country carries over to feelings about family members.

This was backed up in my research with the Indian psychiatrists. For the most part they were flummoxed by the "hands-off" attitudes of family members.

And it's true that we should not be enablers of irresponsibility either. So, in short, I'm not disagreeing with you, IL. There are countless grandparents raising grandchildren and countless sons and daughters devoting their lives to end-of-life care of their parents. I was just wondering about the role of the government with regard to what UA was saying about people expecting their kids to be fed, AND clothed by the government. In this regard, the government becomes extended family.

Ok, not a sweeping generalization!

Looking at this problem thorigh my lense, it is on the one hand useful for Nanny G to pick up support of people on our society who are severly limited in their ability to care for themselves. Schizophrenics and severe mental illnesses, profoundly retarded children and adults, all very sick people. Those are the cases that are easy for us to agree on needing outside help because one nuclear family cant shoulder that entire burdon.

But it is the great majority of other cases where those in need can really, by any truly objective measure, help themselves to some extent, that provoke arguement. In many cases, the family has a better handle on what the supported person can really do for himself. nanny G can only provide a pne size fits all, blundering kind of support. . Family, commnity--they can see up close how in meed the person is vs his wants.

[catherine]

My gf's family is always asking her for money. They have sob stories for days. She usually gives them the money. They promise to pay her back but very, very rarely do, and never on time.

I told her if we ever got hitched there would be an abrupt stop to her giveaways!

I've had family members hit me up, and I know the difference between enabling and helping. I had one brother have a really rough time between jobs when they almost lost their house and he asked me for money for his wife's health insurance so it wouldn't lapse. Another time they asked me to pay their mortgage payment. They told me they would pay me back, but I was deep into Dave Ramsey at the time and I like the idea of never "loaning" money. If you want to give freely with no expectations of payback, that's fine. But loans inevitably wind up creating bad feelings when expectations aren't honored.

My other brother .. well. that's a different story. Giving him money is almost ALWAYS enabling.

Here are two examples in the attitudinal differences between Americans and Indian families that one of the psychs related to me--neither having to do with irresponsibility--just in the way we see "help":

1) When the Indian patient comes for a session, the whole family sits in the waiting room. Not to butt in, just to support. When American patients come, their families feel that it would be an invasion of privacy to go to the session with their family member.

2) One time a daughter asked her dad to drive her to her appointment, and she gave (and her father accepted) gas money. The psychiatrist couldn't even wrap her mind around that.

That's what I mean. Not every family member is a bloodsucker just by virtue of asking for help and support.

[LDAHL]

That's what I mean. Not every family member is a bloodsucker just by virtue of asking for help and support.

I think that's an important point to keep in mind. If you think in purely transactional terms, I think you miss the important support role families can play in an individual's life.