View Full Version : Wow, depressing PBS article
Tonight on PBS they were advertising a story about author Elizabeth White and her self published book about being over 55 and "hanging off a financial cliff"-- the article is worth a look:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/hanging-off-financial-cliff-heres-cope/
here is the original article about her book:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/55-unemployed-faking-normal-one-womans-story-barely-scraping/
I really agree with her that we are living in a "smugtocracy"-- we like to shame and blame people.
Very interesting article.
Thank you for sharing that.. Very interesting.
ApatheticNoMore
2-2-17, 7:35pm
Do the math on it though, if age discrimination starts at age 35, and wages actively go down after 45, and women are hit with age discrimination worse and sooner than men, it means if a woman takes any time off (or even goes part-time or does something less demanding) for kids, she's pretty well and truly screwed, because childbearing and raising years will perfectly correspond to peak earning years ...
Do the math on it though, if age discrimination starts at age 35, and wages actively go down after 45, and women are hit with age discrimination worse and sooner than men, it means if a woman takes any time off (or even goes part-time or does something less demanding) for kids, she's pretty well and truly screwed, because childbearing and raising years will perfectly correspond to peak earning years ...
I was very lucky. I was a SAHM doing some odd jobs (some very odd) for "pin money" I found my career at age 46, and my income rose exponentially over the next 10 years. I wonder how many others have similar stories. I've been greatly fearing age discrimination especially now that I'm freelance. No one has to fire me, and no one has to hire me either. Knock on wood, I'm busier than ever at 65. But with no savings to speak of, I guess you can say I'm on the edge, and very grateful for work.
iris lilies
2-2-17, 8:28pm
Ah well, I will have to pick this apart. I read only the first article, a transcript of the group's discussion.
Elizabeth White is "smalling up" by determining what is most important to her and spending $ on that. Welcme to the world of simple living, Elizabeth, where people align their spendIng with ther values. It isnt a restriction as you present it, it is a freeing action. I promise.
Without knowing how any of these people spent their funds, it is just clickbait awfulizing. That Elizabeth's ?African Arts shop? didnt make her money doesnt surprise me. I guess it surprised her. I suppose that is "blaming and shaming" her.
And Neil Gabler. really? REALLY? We saw in his article many months ago how he passed over common sense into fantasy lala land early in his life,spenidng the money he thought he deserved rather than the money he actually had. His original article was somewhat useful as as cautionary tale, which is how I think he meant it. If he truly meant that compilation of facts about excess spending to be a woe-is-me article, I will pass. And maybe I will even blame him! Haha. But good for him for continuing to flog that riches-to-rags story, I hope it brings him some cash.
I feel sorry for people who lose their jobs and have no seeming way to get another one, even if they sell their house and move. i have far less sympathy for people who are employed or are pulling in decent income and who do not easily on that while also savng for a rainy day. Of course, it depends how on how much that income is.
I'm going to get to play this out in a few months - 58, I'm being outsourced at work (India has been working our 3rd shift, now they'll be backfilling 1st and 2nd shift here). Old IT guy - I'm going to be trying to further update my skill set for the current job market - but no matter what's on the resume I'll still be the old IT guy. Which is not a great selling point.
Between severance and savings I'll have about 2 years - but way too soon to be tapping into my 401k if I want it to last. I'll need to figure out how to get through the next few years successfully.
iris lilies
2-2-17, 8:32pm
I'm going to get to play this out in a few months - 58, I'm being outsourced at work (India has been working our 3rd shift, now they'll be backfilling 1st and 2nd shift here). Old IT guy - I'm going to be trying to further update my skill set for the current job market - but no matter what's on the resume I'll still be the old IT guy. Which is not a great selling point.
Between severance and savings I'll have about 2 years - but way too soon to be tapping into my 401k if I want it to last. I'll need to figure out how to get through the next few years successfully.
i wish you well. You are at a tricky age.
Dont you live in an expensive place? Are their job bs for you in the Midwest, where real estate is half the price?
I read the comments on both stories that I posted; I agree with the author about the blaming and shaming. I think a lot of it is because people don't want to imagine that they could end up there, and so they blame the victim. Like when you have a bad health crisis, and people tell you that they eat really well and exercise and they are never going to get sick.
People want the bad fortune of others to be their own fault, as it makes them feel safer. And I agree about the smugtocracy.
If you read the stories in the comments, many are women; many ended up in bad financial shape because of divorce or because they were SAHM. Yes, Apathetic no More, if you do the math, if you take any time at all to raise kids, you are screwed.
IL, I disagree that this is "clickbait awfulizing." The folks in the comments are in awful situations. And if they can't go out and get jobs, then how are those awful situations going to change? As to how they spent their money, does that make it less awful, that they did not manage their money well? I feel sympathy for them because they are in bad situations.
Catherine, I LOVE that you started your own business and are captain of your own ship. A lot of people in the comments, especially on the second article, are stressing that. I think that for many of us who are over 55, we have experienced age discrimination at work, and experience it going forward as we look for new work. That is a wrench in the works that I did not imagine when I went back to work after my divorce.
And yeah, Creaker, it is so not limited to women! I am shaking my head ruefully at your "old IT guy" comment because that is how I have been viewed where I worked the last few years and they make it very clear they want rid of all us over the age of 50==when they fired both my bosses in the last year, they made them sign something that said it wasn't because of their age! They signed it, I guess, because they wanted the severance pittance package. Now these people seem to be unemployable in our field.
I happened to spend my 20s at home with the kids. Then got my nursing degree in my 30s. My career has grown nicely ever since and at age 55 I'm earning the most I ever have. I have my choice of several great jobs, working at two of them at this time.
So I don't fit the mold of being downsized as I got older. I think I got lucky and chose a career where they need everyone they can hire so the employees are empowered somewhat.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-17, 1:30am
I read the comments on both stories that I posted; I agree with the author about the blaming and shaming. I think a lot of it is because people don't want to imagine that they could end up there, and so they blame the victim. Like when you have a bad health crisis, and people tell you that they eat really well and exercise and they are never going to get sick.
People want the bad fortune of others to be their own fault, as it makes them feel safer. And I agree about the smugtocracy.
could be a bit simpler though (less political and more elemental to human nature), like people are trying to draw lessons not to end up in that shape. But if I drew any lesson it might just be: don't quit a steady job to start a business. But most people already wouldn't anyway (starting a business while working or while involuntarily unemployed and not finding work are different situations of course).
If you read the stories in the comments, many are women; many ended up in bad financial shape because of divorce or because they were SAHM. Yes, Apathetic no More, if you do the math, if you take any time at all to raise kids, you are screwed.
yea the alternative in that case (the case of having kids and stopping or just slowing one's career for them) is to end up with a heck of a breadwinner of a partner I guess and make it last or come out ok if it doesn't (very favorable divorce settlement). But really it does become more and more obvious how this society is not a good place to be a woman in.
IL, I disagree that this is "clickbait awfulizing." The folks in the comments are in awful situations. And if they can't go out and get jobs, then how are those awful situations going to change? As to how they spent their money, does that make it less awful, that they did not manage their money well? I feel sympathy for them because they are in bad situations.
there in aweful situations, how common it is I don't know, but clearly it is their situation. It's very hard to manage money ideally (noone does or they never should have gone on a vacation in their life really for instance) but very few people will ever see the 200k income that she had, but yea they really might have thrown in all into trying to start a business. Some businesses one does need to go all in or not at all (because half committed will kill it as surely as anything), but clearly it didn't work out.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-17, 2:05am
I'm going to get to play this out in a few months - 58, I'm being outsourced at work (India has been working our 3rd shift, now they'll be backfilling 1st and 2nd shift here). Old IT guy - I'm going to be trying to further update my skill set for the current job market - but no matter what's on the resume I'll still be the old IT guy. Which is not a great selling point.
Between severance and savings I'll have about 2 years - but way too soon to be tapping into my 401k if I want it to last. I'll need to figure out how to get through the next few years successfully.
tough situation (ok yes I'd be thinking about the measly nothing I could get from Social Security in a few years if it was me - but of course it's not best to early collect)
Hey Creaker: I'm sorry to hear about your situation. We live in the same area, and I would suggest hospitals as a potential source of all kind of jobs. I heard a guy on the bus talking one night about how he had recently started an IT job at MGH (in his fifties), and he was enthusing about having full benefits, a pension and retirement savings account. My husband has been doing part-time patient transport work for a few years now. It doesn't pay much, but he has good benefits and enjoys the job - walking all day and brief non-stressful interactions with a variety of people. Good luck.
simplelife4me
2-3-17, 6:14am
Looks like a pity party type advertisement for a book?
My two cents on "blaming and shaming."
I think that the blame can be a construction force. I am doubtful that shaming is helpful.
But blaming someone can also just being saying: "Welp, you effed up, dude. Take responsibility, do your best to dig yourself out of this, and don't make the same mistake."
Without accepting the blame, how can anyone avoid the same pitfall?
Thanks for posting this.
It's certainly a cautionary tale about preparing for the end of your career, or even a gap, from the moment it begins. Also that even a Harvard MBA isn't a golden lifetime ticket that prevents bad choices or bad luck. I have a lot more sympathy for this lady than for that guy Gabler, who felt entitled to a high-end lifestyle on a second-tier writer's income. She seems to have a better handle on the reality of her situation. Both stories indicate what a costly overhead charge status anxiety can be and the benefits of simple living.
I myself have been contemplating retiring from my current job in my late fifties to try doing something perhaps more interesting and less stressful. Stories like these give me a bit of healthy pause to consider whether my other income sources will be adequate in the worst case, and whether I need to strengthen my risk management strategies.
For me, these articles and comments clicked with Catherine's observations about the plight of her bil. I'm sure in retrospect Ms. White wishes she had stayed at World Bank, but many folks who start their own businesses do really well. I was surprised by how her educational background (Oberlin, Johns Hopkins, and Harvard MBA) and her work at the World Bank did not translate into a new job after the stores failed.
In the comments, lots about strategies people over 55 employing to manage their financial lives, and the widespread age discrimination. It made me think about Michael Gil getting fired for being too old at the advertising job and going to work at Starbucks.
One of the market research vendors I subcontract for was started about 10 years ago by a 50-year old pharma executive who worked for a major pharma company in NJ. He had just remarried and had a young son, and saw his 50-something colleagues being pushed out the door. So he proactively started a small business, which has grown a lot. He's been given offers to sell it, but he likes working.
I just saw a headline in the WSJ that I meant to go back and read, but I didn't. The headline was "The End of the Employee" and maybe that will be a trend for people to just go it alone. I think it would be great.
I'm thankful every day that I didn't find myself in this situation. I was hired twice in my fifties. If I had started my technical writing career earlier, it's not too big a stretch to think I would have changed career trajectories at fifty or so. But I lived in far different times than people do now--you know, when corporate loyalty was a two way street, and there were still unions.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-17, 12:18pm
Again it's hard to say how she even screwed up except maybe not saving enough when making 200k, putting too much money into her business (probably), and quitting a steady good paying job to start a business. Getting into government work might reduce chances of age discrimination (I suspect so), but not so easy to break into.
Teacher Terry
2-3-17, 1:03pm
I started my career at 39 but age is valued in human services. My friends had a paid for house and $ saved but when she fought a 15 year battle with cancer with insurance it broke them. She got early Alzheimer's and between cancer and that was unemployable from her early 50's. Then he suffered age discrimination and was a security expert who ended up working as a security guard. Bad things do happen to people who did things right.
i wish you well. You are at a tricky age.
Dont you live in an expensive place? Are their job bs for you in the Midwest, where real estate is half the price?
Thanks. I live in a ticky-tacky fixer upper in Boston - as long as I'm not spending the money to fix it up, it's affordable :-)
Relocation really isn't an option - my son is living in a nice group home about 10 minutes from my house, he comes over weekly. I couldn't imagine abandoning him for elsewhere, and he's in too good of a situation to attempt to relocate him.
Hey Creaker: I'm sorry to hear about your situation. We live in the same area, and I would suggest hospitals as a potential source of all kind of jobs. I heard a guy on the bus talking one night about how he had recently started an IT job at MGH (in his fifties), and he was enthusing about having full benefits, a pension and retirement savings account. My husband has been doing part-time patient transport work for a few years now. It doesn't pay much, but he has good benefits and enjoys the job - walking all day and brief non-stressful interactions with a variety of people. Good luck.
Thanks - I'll be quite open to whatever is out there, although I have to say I'm a bit burnt out doing IT for trading machines, a change would be nice.
Creaker, I am taking classes at Simmons college right now. here is a job that might suit you in project management/IT:
https://www.higheredjobs.com/details.cfm?JobCode=176426791
Bloomberg published some interesting information on older worker participation today. I was a little surprised at how low "prime age" workforce participation is.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-02-03/trump-isn-t-the-only-older-worker-staying-on-the-job
I escaped from the Silicon Valley tech industry in 1999, in my mid-30s. At that time, looking around, there were very few people in their 40s involved.
I was having a conversation just the other day with some of my friends and coworkers from back then, who have remained in their Silicon Valley careers, who are now mostly in their late 40s/early 50s. Their outlook was pretty grim on their future as they aged. As the companies they work with reorganize and adapt, the positions inside the company that are available to them are increasingly in overseas branches - accept a transfer and supervise the technological handover to the foreign R&D division.... Sort of a "will the last one to leave, turn out the lights" situation.
Thanks - I'll be quite open to whatever is out there, although I have to say I'm a bit burnt out doing IT for trading machines, a change would be nice.
I know of a couple of open IT positions in Waltham if you're interested. I'll PM you a link, if they look promising I can get you a contact name and number next week.
iris lilies
2-3-17, 6:33pm
I'm thankful every day that I didn't find myself in this situation. I was hired twice in my fifties. If I had started my technical writing career earlier, it's not too big a stretch to think I would have changed career trajectories at fifty or so. But I lived in far different times than people do now--you know, when corporate loyalty was a two way street, and there were still unions.
I am lucky to have plodded along in the public sector for decades, never dreaming that I would make more money in the private business world. More than once our leader would mutter something about how we were all sacrificingnfor our jobs, but I dont think so.
when I retired it was weird that a fair number of friends talked to me about going part time mentioning jobs they thought I might like. One said " now you can consult and make some money." I told her " umm, who the F would hire me??! *I* would not hire me!"
I managed to work briefly for the state, and a few years for the county here, but never for the feds, unfortunately. If I had it to do all over again, my life would look very different.
I too am grateful now that I worked a state job and now receive a generous (to me) pension. Along with Social Security and savings, it is more than enough to keep me afloat (at least I hope). On the topic of economic preservation at mid-life, I am in awe of my landlady here in Colorado. At the age of 54, she has managed to acquire seven rental houses, pay them all off and as such is her own boss. She drives an old truck, does all the repairs herself and has lots of free time to do what she loves - traveling the West, camping, etc.
People for decades consistently told me I was stupid to work for the feds. They choose immediate money to spend. I choose stability, 8-5 hours, pension, and health insurance. It is hard to ignore the crowds but it worked out for me.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-17, 10:30pm
I don't think there is that much immediate money to spend to go around these days anyway, it's really not on offer, that was at a certain much more prosperous time.
Simplemind
2-3-17, 10:44pm
I wasn't happy in my job with the city for the last 17 years of it. But I stuck it out for the golden ticket. I made very good money and had even better benefits. I was able to retire at 55 as I had planned. It was never my intention to look for another paid position but I do love the volunteer work I'm doing. My coworkers continue to be miserable. I feel very very fortunate.
I wasn't happy in my job with the city for the last 17 years of it. But I stuck it out for the golden ticket. I made very good money and had even better benefits. I was able to retire at 55 as I had planned. It was never my intention to look for another paid position but I do love the volunteer work I'm doing. My coworkers continue to be miserable. I feel very very fortunate.
I was ready to quit or throw myself off a microwave tower after I had fifteen years of HSSJ. Then the company announced a "thirty years and out" plan. So that cooked my goose. Those dismal years are just a memory now. I'm not really sorry I stuck it out--you have to work somewhere--but as I said, I'd do some things differently.
I know of a couple of open IT positions in Waltham if you're interested. I'll PM you a link, if they look promising I can get you a contact name and number next week.
Thanks for offering - but the catch with this event ( a good one) is I have about 11 months of severance coming - only if I stick around until my termination date. That's hard to walk away from, so I'll likely be postponing job search after I get done in May and taking a little time to decompress.
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