View Full Version : Why work?
Has anyone else ever questioned the concept of work in our society?
What do you make of the articles contained on this website (http://whywork.org) (whywork.org)? Any thoughts?
1. Those of us in the USA have our health insurance tied to jobs.
2. We may want some of the things that money can buy. Safe housing, good education, quality food, etc.
3. Self employment is not for everyone and can consume more time for less money for many entreprenuers. Not all (since there are some truly successful self employed people out there) but not everyone has the stamina, sales ability, skills, etc. to be SE.
I worked for 35 years and retired. I have probably another 30 years to go. I enjoyed the people and all I learned while working. Did not have any enthusiasm for SE life.
If it takes a high pressure sales job to convince a person to be SE, maybe they do not have enough inner desire?
I loved my jobs anbd found alot of fulfillment in both my military job (Coast Guard) and my civilian job (environmental compliance inspector). Iwould probably do them both forever if it wasn't for the "work" part of the job. By that I mean the structure, set up, hours, politics, mind games, etc... that drove me out of the workforce asap (at 42). However life is short and I, like alot of people who may love their jobs, chose to be free of work so that we can focus on things - including leisurely things - that are just as meaningful as a traditional job (more meaningful in most cases) rather than deal with the day to day grind of even the most beloved job.
I think there is a difference between low skill/ low wage jobs where you are just an interchangeable cog and jobs where you can really exercise your talents and make a difference. The website seems to imply that all jobs are like the former.
My first job in high school was a checkout clerk at a supermarket, and it was about as mind numbing as it could be. But I've also worked in corporate jobs where I was excited, and engaged and valued, although those jobs were a minority. As Spartana mentioned, its often the "work" part that makes it drudgery. I like the job that I do, just not all the politics that goes along with it. I did try self employment a couple of years ago, and again, while I liked working with clients, I didn't like the constant marketing, networking and selling that it required. It wasn't for me.
I would like work a lot more if I could do it 3 days a week instead of 5, or work mostly from home to avoid the commute. But I'm in a profession where part time is highly frowned upon (only tolerated for women with pre school children). I am looking to put in another 5-10 years to build up the investments and then retire.
My husband was totally depressed when he was laid off and had to retire. He absolutely loved his corporate job and working with all the high quality people he was with each day. His company was in an industry with serious issues, big pharma, so it was not him in particular but about 75% of the whole IT Division who will all be gone by no later than this year. All depends on the job.
ApatheticNoMore
1-4-11, 12:59pm
Has anyone else ever questioned the concept of work in our society?
What do you make of the articles contained on this website (http://whywork.org)? Any thoughts?
Yes I generally agree, we work too much and much of the work is unnecessary (I mean at the very least all the work involved in wars and the like is unnecessary). But to illustrate the point even more that much work is unnecessary: here in the U.S. we have 10% official unemployment, which is probably 20% true unemployment if you include the people who would take jobs if they could get them but have given up even looking. Do we even collectively lack anything we need due to that massive unemployment? No. The unemployed may lack the ability (money) to get all that they need perhaps, healthcare costs too much, we do import a lot that we could be employing people producing here (but that wouldn't have the competitive advantage of "free" trade right? ;)), but even given that all that is the case: it sure seems to point to a lot of work being unnecessary to me.
*Some* work is necessary to run a society, sure, sure and serious work well applied at that. Some work may even be a net mental positive (although it would help a lot if we had any sense of control over what this work consists of). But I'd definitely be happier in a society with more leisure.
All that said, making this kind of social change, especially in the U.S. (which is a deeply, deeply, workaholic culture) is pretty much impossible. I guess it could evolve out of economic collapse or something (and so could many worse developments, depending on what direction things go) but you are never going to achieve it top down through the political system. So it's mostly yes, society is messed up, but ... If you ever find a movement that stands any realistic chance of achieving more leisure then hey join it.
If you personally have the notion to go part time or something: I'd say try it!
If you like that website you might also like Jack Saturday: http://jacksatu.blogspot.com/
Thank you for this link, Miralaluna!
Making a jump to see the possibility of living a money-less (or less-money) life is difficult, especially since the culture we currently live in doesn't really accept the idea at all, or even understand what it means. Someone sitting on the couch watching tv and drinking beer on welfare money is the first thing that pops into many people's minds when the phrase "permanently unemployed" comes up.
My life ... hmm. It's funny, because I can't answer the question 'what do you do for fun' OR 'what do you do for work' in a way that people relate to. I garden. That's fun! And it's work! and it provides me with "income" in the form of food. I write. Not for profit, but it's fun, and it's work, and it makes me feel good. I do housework in a way that consists of a lot of manual labor. That's ... satisfying, and it's work, and it makes my life functional and less-money. I make some of my own furniture and dishes. That's fun! And it's work! And it produces something I need, for a less-money life.
So ... unless we're born with money to pay others, we do all need to "work" in some way in order to make our lives functional. But at least in the ideal world, paid employment could be a much smaller part of life than most people think - especially, if, as Sweetana3 pointed out, one essential part of our wellbeing (health insurance) wasn't intimately tied to enormous cash expenditure on the part of ourselves or employers.
ETA: this is not to say there's anything wrong with being employed or self employed for money, or working 60 hour weeks, if that's something you enjoy and find satisfying. It has its own rewards and can often be more practical in terms of obtaining professional quality goods and services instead of DIY. But there are / ought to be other options.
shadowmoss
1-5-11, 11:48am
I always liked the idea of figuring out what is needed per year (aka the Nearings), and devoting the necessary time to for that, and no more. I think they averaged 2 hrs./day doing 'bread labor' or doing what was necessary to be fed, housed and clothed. After that it was time to do other things, study, volunteer, etc. The term 'average' seemed to be key, as some times of the year required more consecutive labor during the day (sugaring?) and other times of the year were free to do only what else was important to them (lecturing, etc.).
I need structure in my life and work gives it to me. When I was out of work, I just laid around, or at least, that is the way it felt. I guess part-time work would be my favorite, if I could swing it. Ideally, work in the mornings and have afternoons off.
You're not the first person to ask this question. There's a great essay titled "Why Work?" by Dorothy Sayers that you might enjoy reading, available online in .pdf format. (Sorry, but there's no way to link to it, so Google it if you're interested.)
It seems to me that a big part of the problem - lack of job satisfaction - is rooted in the economic system we've accepted for so long. It's all about making money and more money, not about service to our fellow man or maximizing our personal talents. Our entire U.S. culture is geared toward having lots of money and stuff, i.e. "success".
I work for a government regulatory agency that does auditing work. We have had, as employees, people who went back to school as adults and got pushed into accounting or finance majors who are just grossly unsuited to any kind of work that involves math and working independently. (College counselors often encourage people to pursue these degrees because there's always a demand for accountants, auditors, and finance people.) They are miserable and so are the rest of us until they give up and leave or get pushed into lower level positions, where they are probably still miserable.
I disagree with ApatheticNoMore that we are "deeply workaholic". I think we've allowed ourselves to be deeply deluded that lots of work resulting in lots of money will lead to happiness, and it seems to be human nature to escalate our behavior instead of examining and changing it. By that I mean that if we try something that's supposed to work but doesn't, we try the same thing again, only harder. I grant you that there is a minority who are lost without their jobs and their eighty-hour workweeks, but I don't think most people enjoy that.
My own work is somewhat boring and I could tolerate that, but the bureacracy is a nightmare and so are a few of my coworkers. While I realize that there will always be uncomfortable situations and people I dislike in life, I don't intend to stick around a minute longer than I must.
Thank you all for your responses! I suppose I should have elaborated a little in my initial post, in that I am trying to look at work/jobs in our society within a wider context - ie. questioning the very system that it is part of, as Jemima illustrated very well.
On these forums, we are all already questioning and rejecting elements of capitalism to some extent, so doing the same for the idea of work seems logical. If our current economic system were different, who would choose to spend 40+ hours a week doing the same tasks, within the same four walls, with the same people practically every week? And using much of our "free time" after work and at weekends to merely physically and mentally recover from working? This routine is so commonplace in our societies that it is simply accepted as normal. Anything else, such as choosing to work as few hours as possible, is seen as LAZY rather than a good way to seek balance.
With our current economic situation, many people are out of work and unable to support themselves financially to the degree that they are comfortable with. There has been a lot of talk of "job creation". We must get these people into jobs! What jobs? Any jobs! Create them! Working in a highly pressured call centre trying to sell useless products to people for a pitiful wage and long hours in return?! Why of course, it's a job, so be grateful! With many industries that used to be based locally now being moved over to places like China (to keep costs down, of course... "profit over people" is a popular mantra), obviously there are fewer jobs! So instead of people now pursuing a career in something useful to society like textile production, they are now working in a scabby cheap clothing shop for minimum wage.
I'm not sure what my point really is, but I really think we need to start evaluating the way we do things in relation to employment. I read an interesting article recently in the New Internationalist that suggested that if we all worked fewer hours/reduced the standard working week dramatically, costs in general would be kept lower and more people would have the opportunity to work and live. Clearly I'm no economist and don't know all the ins and outs of what implications that would have, but being able to afford to work only, say 15 hours a week in a useful job and dedicate the rest of my time to other interesting things sounds just wonderful.
1. Until you make it less expensive for an employer to hire part time people (in benefits, training, government costs, etc.) they will push overtime on existing employees before hiring new ones. I agree with job sharing opportunities. Would love to work part time.
2. Our countries impose so many restrictions on the start of any new business, often with good reasons, that the unemployed cannot afford the huge start up costs for a business. We were just overseas and were amazed at the huge number of jobs in street food, clothing, laundry, tourism, etc. that can be started with a pittance to create simple jobs. So many people working so hard to earn enough to feed and shelter themselves. However, in such a country, housing is a shack, food costs are about $1 per day or less, education is not a right, etc.
3. What is an adequate standard of living depends on who you ask. Therefore, a one size limited job would not suit everyone. Best is to have multiple choices. Full time with overtime, Full time, part time, etc.
Another very eye-opening thing to read for people who have just taken capitalism for granted is the section of Escape from Freedom in which Erich Fromm explains how the events of and after Protestant Reformation led to capitalism and the good old Protestant work ethic--the reasons why attitudes shifted toward a belief in the intrinsic value of hard work.
I struggle with this, and one of the questions I always ask myself is, if we didn't work (as hard) what would we lose as a society? If you go to other less developed countries, it seems there's less beauty and order--at face value, anyway. And I struggle with the statement about "beauty" because that's so subjective, right? I mean, is Magnificent Mile in Chicago really more beautiful than a crowded street in Delhi? To me it is, but is that just because I've been brought up to believe that well-designed skyscrapers and clean, orderly streets are beautiful?
Then, to play Devil's Advocate with myself, I think about Ayn Rand's "The Fountainhead" and you can't really say that (despite her belief in capitalism) her thesis is that work for work's sake was important--her thesis was only work that is a reflection of our personal integrity has meaning. So, maybe the question is, how do we create a society in which ALL of us have the opportunity to contribute in a way that has TRUE meaning?
Personally, I'm for work. I like work. Work is fun a lot of the time. But I'm not sure I'm for work for work's sake.
Edited to add: About those odious "somebody's-got-to-do-it" or "cog-in-the-wheel" jobs, I agree completely that restricting the hours that people need to put in for those jobs would be the ideal--such as the Nearings' 4 hours, and I think B.F. Skinner in Walden II also proposed 4 hours of "gotta-do-it" types of societal chores.
Here's a quote you might appreciate: "What kind of system is it that justifies the United States or any country seizing the destinies of the Vietnamese people and using them callously for their own purpose? What kind of system is it that disenfranchises people in the South, leaves millions upon millions of people throughout the country impoverished and excluded from the mainstream and promise of American society, that creates faceless and terrible bureaucracies and makes those the place where people spend their lives and do their work, that consistently puts material values before human values - and still persists in calling itself free and still persists in finding itself fit to police the world? What place is there for ordinary men in that system and how are they to control it, make it bend itself to their wills rather than bending them to its?"
This is from a speech given by Paul Potter, a leader of Students for a Democratic Society, on April 17, 1965, during a march on Washington, but if we sustitute Iraq or Pakistan for Vietnam, the quote is quite contemporary, IMO.
How sad that so little has changed since my college days!!!
Good conversation. My current trajectory in life is to a) remain self-employed for the rest of my life, and b) each year, strive to make the same income on fewer hours.
I'm no genius, but already, I've cut my living expenses and increased my income to the point where I can work a 4-hour day and get by, a 6-hour day and have quite a bit to put into savings. Plus I have time to exercise, meditate, journal, garden, make fresh homemade food... I wouldn't consider going back to work for a company to help a bunch of overweight rich guys get richer (even if it purports to have good values, that's what you're there for, basically). Not that this describes all large for-profit firms, but enough of them. I did my time there, and now I've graduated.
I can see how SE isn't for everyone though. There are some spare times now and then. It has helped to have a good emergency fund just in case.
Thanks for the link mira -- good food for thought.
Catherine - I remember reading somewhere about the influence of the Protestant 'work ethic' as well. The author then went on to say how much more fun it is to be Catholic with all those saints days, festivals and holidays! :) And the four-hour work thing would be worth a shot. Just think of how many hours we spend at work not actually working. Why spend 8 or 9 hours a day at work when the actual tasks only amount to 4 hours' toil?!
Jemima - thank you for that quote. It is disheartening that nothing has changed, isn't it? It gives such little hope for the future. I recently read a book called The Selfish Society: how we all forgot to love one another and made money instead by Sue Gerhardt. It touches on many of the points made in that speech and Gerhardt suggests that a lack of empathy and insufficient emotional development are at the heart of the matter. A very insightful read.
puglogic - the way you're doing things sounds great :). Can I ask what type of work you do? Want less and work less is probably a new motto of mine. I need to stop feeling apologetic when I tell people I work part-time. And you're welcome for the link! Obviously the page wasn't constructed by web design deities, but all the info is there!
Jemima - thank you for that quote. It is disheartening that nothing has changed, isn't it? It gives such little hope for the future. I recently read a book called The Selfish Society: how we all forgot to love one another and made money instead by Sue Gerhardt. It touches on many of the points made in that speech and Gerhardt suggests that a lack of empathy and insufficient emotional development are at the heart of the matter. A very insightful read.
Thanks for the book reference. I just ordered it from Amazon.
I hadn't given much thought to "insufficient emotional develpment" as a cause of our national, pervasive selfishness, but it certainly makes sense. I seem to keep bumping into people who haven't gotten beyond the emotional maturity level they had attained at high school or college graduation, and by gosh, they don't want to learn and grow any more either! I look forward to reading this book and finding out more about this aspect of selfishness.
gimmethesimplelife
1-22-11, 12:09pm
Good conversation. My current trajectory in life is to a) remain self-employed for the rest of my life, and b) each year, strive to make the same income on fewer hours.
I'm no genius, but already, I've cut my living expenses and increased my income to the point where I can work a 4-hour day and get by, a 6-hour day and have quite a bit to put into savings. Plus I have time to exercise, meditate, journal, garden, make fresh homemade food... I wouldn't consider going back to work for a company to help a bunch of overweight rich guys get richer (even if it purports to have good values, that's what you're there for, basically). Not that this describes all large for-profit firms, but enough of them. I did my time there, and now I've graduated.
I can see how SE isn't for everyone though. There are some spare times now and then. It has helped to have a good emergency fund just in case.
Thanks for the link mira -- good food for thought.I'm with you on self employment all the way! Im looking into taking classes this fall to learn web design so that I can perhaps have your work trajectory for myself, for much the same reasons you discuss. Good to know I am not alone on this!!!!!
Interesting that you bring this up since I've been thinking about this subject a lot lately especially as our economy has faltered and the future, IMO, does not look good for our young people - low pay, few retirement benefits, high-cost medical premiums, etc. Unless we're independently wealthy or don't mind mooching or being homeless, we have to have some money to live. My advice to my kids, who are in their 30s now, is to do what you love to do and learn to live within your means. I believe it's more important to fill your life loving what you do every day than to fill your life with stuff. That being said, the best of both worlds is a great-paying job that you love!
It seems that this discussion is not about working vs. not working, but rather about self-employment vs. working for a wage. First, I would suggest a look at Free Agent Nation by Dan Pink. Not a new book, but highly relevant. That book is probably close to 15 years old, but it explores trends in work / compensation that suggest that workers will find increased value in being 'free agents' which often means working as contract or freelance labor. With the further erosion of benefits and the sketchy support of said benefits, this model makes even more sense. People have this idea that they are less secure as free agents, but in many cases free agents are more secure because they have multiple clients.
Free agency also really resonates with the 9-step FI model, too. As a free agent, you are far more likely to really look at your hours of labor they way FI suggests.
All of these points aside, being a free agent / self employed requires a different way to approach work and that will look good to some people but not to others. It can be a scary thing to face the month with no guaranteed paycheck. Free agents learn to market themselves and really show their value if they are to be successful.
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