View Full Version : Libraries, books, inter-library loans
My community has one of the highest library-use statistics in the state. Probably because of an over-educated, elderly population, and our remote location.
We just built a very expensive addition to our already very-nice library. (Which seemed more focused on more meeting rooms, and more rooms for "technology" - seems the library is a center for people working on their phones, laptops, and pads, due to good Internet connectity, desks, light, power, and heat...)
My mother works as a volunteer at our library. At a recent dinner, some of us were complaining to her that the library's physical book collection is problematic - in particular they'll often not have the entire series of a trilogy (or longer), likely having only the latest book, or one in the middle. She informs me we do a lot of inter-library loans for solving this problem.
She then called me back - inter-library loans cost us about $16 on average. And take 1-2 weeks to be delivered. This charge isn't passed along to the borrower, it comes out of the general operating budget.
I observed that it would be cheaper to Amazon Prime the book directly to the borrower, if for some reason they needed a physical book... (The library already has a sizeable collection of loanable e-books.)
Curious.
I wonder whether the inter-library loan program is a net money-maker for the library, which, in addition to borrowing books from other libraries, is presumably lending out its own.
Does the library literally not own the other books in the series or are they just not on the shelf? Our tiny community library is a branch of the bigger downtown library and there is so little shelf space that we often just have 1, or maybe at most 2, books by any given author. Other books in a series or by the same author are usually part of the collection at the "main" library though, but I guess if we did not have a "main" library then we would be in the same boat as you describe. We also do a LOT of borrowing from the "main" library as well as inter-library loan.
I wonder whether the inter-library loan program is a net money-maker for the library, which, in addition to borrowing books from other libraries, is presumably lending out its own.
Not a money-maker for our library - as I said, they don't charge the patrons.
Our library has but a single site - the books being asked for do not exist in the collection. Someone in "collections management" decided that nobody ever needed to read the first book in the Dune trilogy, or the 2nd Harry Potter book. And so on.
rosarugosa
7-10-17, 6:31pm
Bae: I assume it's more expensive for you folks given your location. I borrow from the North of Boston Lending Exchange, and most of the books I borrow seem to come from other libraries in the exchange rather than my own library. Given proximity and population density here, the cost per lend is probably a lot less. Our librarian once told me that if I ever couldn't find something I wanted, I should let them know so they could buy it, because they have funds for that. It might make more sense for you to buy the books for your borrowers, but then you would need use some of that nice conference room space to actually store the books. :)
iris lilies
7-10-17, 6:39pm
Oh hell yes. Interlibrary Loan (ILL) library service is rarefied, impractical, and very expensive. I know because I used to run ILL service in a major metropolitan public library. The cost you give is in the ballpark. Other, earlier cost studies show it much more expensive, but that included university libraries that can never do anything inexpensively.
The expense of the service lies in the cost of people, there are many hands touching the book. The secondary cost is data systems. Far down the list of expenses, for us anyway, was transportation costs to move the book from one place to another.
A few forward thinking libraries realized that it was often (not always) cheaper to just buy the book, check it out uncataloged, and give it to patrons quickly with the expectation that it would be returned and perhaps entered into the library's collection. Probably some library out there just bought the book and gave it to the patron to keep. But that wouldn't be something we would ever consider because it is difficult to control that kind of service and soon tax dollars would be spent on building private libraries. Keep in mind that is it not only books but dvds, video games, music cds and etc that are requested via ILL.
I often talked with our head honcho about the cost per unit of ILL and we both shook our heads, but did not have the cajones to drop the service. Here in my metropolitan area where there are easily 6 million items available to citizens to check out through library reciprocal programs, and another 8 million items available in large university libraries that they may access within those libraries, and then accessibility to the internet with many ways to find common published items super cheap, ILL service is a dodo bird. This doesnt even consider the incredible richness of digital resources.
Where you are which I think is pretty isolated, it may be a different story. If your ILL requests are often for volumes that complete a series that is useful collection development information. I used to run all ILL requests quickly through our book buyers to be evaluated for purchase rather than borrowing.
I am not a very good gubmnt bureaucrat because I often thought that we didnt really need certain library services. Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec is my hero.
I am not a very good gubmnt bureaucrat because I often thought that we didnt really need certain library services. Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec is my hero.
Yes, Ron is my Fylgja. (Can't say "spirit animal", apparently that's colonialist cultural appropriation.)
I know you said they don't charge the patrons, but don't they charge the other libraries that are borrowing your library's books, and make some money from doing that, i.e., isn't ILL a two-way street? That's what I meant. Given your library is free-standing and very small though, it would probably be doing more borrowing than lending.
It is an interesting thought why not just buy the book from Amazon if it's less than or around $16. Since they don't have room to keep the book, I guess they could literally just give it to the patron and basically be in the same position financially. Probably even better if they bought it used through abebooks or similar. Maybe your mom can suggest this?
iris lilies
7-10-17, 7:01pm
By no means do all libraries charge each other for ILL lendng. Some do, some do not.
Our librari policy was to ask only from libraries that did not charge. If we couldnt get the item, we them offered to go to a charging library but our patron nad to pay the loan fee, usiall in the range of $10 a $15. Many times
I heard them sputter "well Ill,just go buy it." Ok buddy, good idea, and thanks!
freshstart
7-10-17, 7:10pm
since most of my books come from ILL within a large network of libraries, I'm curious how much it costs. Thanks for posting this out, I will be asking. I hope they never do away with it.
Are you on a new device IL? It looks like my tablet which is why I am constantly editing for typos.
I just checked my property tax bills. After the levy increase to build the new addition, I'm paying ~$2250 in local property taxes a year directly entirely to the library.
I could order a lot of books from Amazon Prime for that money. They show up on my doorstep the very next day, and I don't have to drive into the village and back. Hmmm...
The median home price here is ~$550k - they'd be paying about $250 a year in library taxes.
If I'm doing the math right, you must have a very nice place, bae.
That's interesting that not all libraries charge other libraries for ILL, and some libraries do charge patrons for ILL -- did not know that. There is no charge to patron at our library.
Some of the things I have gotten through ILL were old/out of print or periodicals and probably would not be available through Amazon, but others were more current/popular and probably would be.
Our library is going to be closed this Winter for the planned renovation and I'm just dreading that because it's one of the few places to see people locally during the long dark cold Winter. They plan to relocate it to the school temporarily. Not sure how on earth that is going to work but at least there will be someplace to go. It will probably be kind of fun having it there for a while.
If I'm doing the math right, you must have a very nice place, bae.
Not especially. I do however have more than one piece of real estate here that I pay taxes on.
Our library is going to be closed this Winter for the planned renovation and I'm just dreading that because it's one of the few places to see people locally during the long dark cold Winter.
I think our library serves a similar social purpose much of the year.
iris lilies
7-10-17, 10:26pm
Are you on a new device IL? It looks like my tablet which is why I am constantly editing for typos.
No, I wrote this up elsewhere for previewing, then copied and pasted to website. Thats why the font is different.
iris lilies
7-10-17, 10:36pm
I just checked my property tax bills. After the levy increase to build the new addition, I'm paying ~$2250 in local property taxes a year directly entirely to the library.
I could order a lot of books from Amazon Prime for that money. They show up on my doorstep the very next day, and I don't have to drive into the village and back. Hmmm...
The median home price here is ~$550k - they'd be paying about $250 a year in library taxes.
i go through $250 worth of library product in two weeks. I consume a lot of media. Dont read them necessarily, but I skim them or look at them. Right now I have 6 books about Prague checked out, 4 of which are large format architecture and art books. Those are expensive. Also,
I dont WANT to own all of the books I use at the library, ugh.
But back to the library potentially buyng rahter than ILLing titles: that isnt free, there arw acquisitions costs. The humans who order, unpack shipments, process incoices, amd sjelp,the new books around insist on being paid.
Freshstart, I doubt very much that anyone you speak to at your library will know the full cost of ILL service on a per unit basis. At least, the front line staff wont know, management might. I had a great interest in cost analysis when I worked at a library but the vast majority of our library staff have no clue how much a specific service costs.I remember when one supervisor told me I thought too muvh about costs. Oooookay.That is how I am wired, sorry!
iris lilies
7-11-17, 1:24pm
Yes, Ron is my Fylgja. (Can't say "spirit animal", apparently that's colonialist cultural appropriation.)
Ron would appreciate that sentiment and would offer you a large hunk of meat in a gesture of brotherhood.
I think the Aubrey Parks character is my spirit animal. I can say that now.
iris lilies
7-11-17, 6:54pm
I think the Aubrey Parks character is my spirit animal. I can say that now.
Isnt that April? Yeah, she is great.
Meezer_Mom
7-11-17, 8:26pm
Dayum. Feeling grateful here in LA where I have access to Cities (plural), County, University and Legal collections.
Between them, they carry every book I could want or need. They even re-shelve and dust them for me. :)
Williamsmith
7-11-17, 10:56pm
I draw from a rural network of county libraries. I made it a practice to search the online catalog for the book I want and then drive to that library even if it cost me substantially rather than order the book delivered to my local library or pick up on ILL.
Until - one day I drove quite a distance to a library I had never been to get a book that had been checked out for a long time. The online catalog reported it was available. Upon arrival, I went to where the book was to be shelved. No luck. I asked for the librarians assistance and she couldn't find it. A second librarian recalled it was actually from my local library but was in a shipping envelope on the librarians desk waiting to be sent via mail.
I thought, no big deal, just check it out to me here and I'll return it to its proper library free of shipping costs. Oh hell no. Neither the librarian I was talking to face to face nor the librarian I talked to on the phone could problem solve by ignoring the computer protocol long enough to benefit everyone. So, I waited for them to ship the book to my local library and then I picked it up there.
I then returned the book to a third library .....further away so it would have to be shipped back. And every chance I get I return the books I borrow to a different library so it has to be shipped back. I haven't gotten a call yet to ask me to stop.
I also quit donating books and making financial gifts. I can hold a grudge for ignorance and stupidity for a long time.
rosarugosa
7-12-17, 4:43am
. They even re-shelve and dust them for me. :)
It's the best!
Oh for goodness sake, William, why hold a grudge and incur more costs so that others may not get a chance to read books?
I can't say enough good things about our highly-rated library system. I don't begrudge them a penny of the taxes they collect from me. I've always thought top-notch libraries were the best entertainment/education bargain around. I only have to use ILL maybe once a year because the collection is very robust.
iris lilies
7-12-17, 10:49am
I draw from a rural network of county libraries. I made it a practice to search the online catalog for the book I want and then drive to that library even if it cost me substantially rather than order the book delivered to my local library or pick up on ILL.
Until - one day I drove quite a distance to a library I had never been to get a book that had been checked out for a long time. The online catalog reported it was available. Upon arrival, I went to where the book was to be shelved. No luck. I asked for the librarians assistance and she couldn't find it. A second librarian recalled it was actually from my local library but was in a shipping envelope on the librarians desk waiting to be sent via mail.
I thought, no big deal, just check it out to me here and I'll return it to its proper library free of shipping costs. Oh hell no. Neither the librarian I was talking to face to face nor the librarian I talked to on the phone could problem solve by ignoring the computer protocol long enough to benefit everyone. So, I waited for them to ship the book to my local library and then I picked it up there.
I then returned the book to a third library .....further away so it would have to be shipped back. And every chance I get I return the books I borrow to a different library so it has to be shipped back. I haven't gotten a call yet to ask me to stop.
I also quit donating books and making financial gifts. I can hold a grudge for ignorance and stupidity for a long time.
Without knowing more about your library's computer system and how it is shared, I can't respond to that situation. I do know that our patrons occasionally wanted to jump the gun and go retrieve a book that we were getting for them via ILL, and that a complex process that I discouraged. However once in a while a patron would call me while he was standing in a university library holding a book he wanted us to get for him, so I worked with the university library to make special arrangements. But that was a very special arrangement, it required higher level staff to intercede, and it worked because I was at work that day and could overtirn barriers. My lower level staff who normally handled this stuff couldnt do it.
True interlibrary loan means that an owning library is lending a book to another library, the book is checked out to another library, it is not checked out to an individual person. That is key because the borrowing library takes full responsibility for the loan and if the book doesn't come back that borrowing library pays for it. Also, in true interlibrary transactions, the book is processed with the borrowing library's bar code that ties to the transaction for the patron. If the special processing is not in place, there is no way to discharge the book from the patron's account. Angry patrons ensue. That was always a factor in these special handlings outside the normal process.
Imposing extra costs and inconvenience on any public service out of pique seems wrong to me. Like that woman who called 911 to complain that her McNuggets weren't getting served quickly enough. Or that guy who thought he was making some kind of point by paying his property taxes in pennies. It hurts taxpayers and system users more than the bureaucracy.
Like Jane i can't say enough good about our library, or about NYC's where I lived for,18 years. Having a well stocked library has enabled me to read countless books that I would never have bought but which 'sounded interesting' when I read about them or heard an interview of the author or whatever. Whatever of my tax dollars that goes to libraries is money very well spent in my opinion. As SO and I look towards retirement and where to live access to a decent library will definitely be one of our considerations.
Like Jane i can't say enough good about our library, or about NYC's where I lived for,18 years. Having a well stocked library has enabled me to read countless books that I would never have bought but which 'sounded interesting' when I read about them or heard an interview of the author or whatever. Whatever of my tax dollars that goes to libraries is money very well spent in my opinion. As SO and I look towards retirement and where to live access to a decent library will definitely be one of our considerations.
Among my considerations for an acceptable retirement venue are a variety of ethnic restaurants, a good mix of thrift stores, and a strong library system. My needs are few...:~)
freshstart
7-12-17, 3:14pm
I dated ex-BF for 7 years. He lived in a small town that housed the library in a small house. It was only open a few days a week and had no ILL. I told him in all seriousness that I could never live there. He thought I was kidding. Welp, I never lived there, lol.
iris lilies
7-12-17, 5:33pm
I live in a small town with a small library. I don’t know if our local library has an ILL fee or not but for the yearly property taxes that I pay directly for the library, I figure I am paying for the use of the books that I get through the ILL system and for the use by those who do not pay property taxes and get the same service for absolutely free.
Who doesnt pay real estate taxes? If you mean people who rent, they pay via their rent payment, that is part of the roll up charged by their landlord.
iris lilies
7-12-17, 5:36pm
I have always defined my minimum public library needs as a collection of 100,000 volumes. That was before digital content exploded all over the place, but that is still a decent guildeline for me. I worked in several libraries of that size and I know what I can expect to find.
Williamsmith
7-12-17, 10:41pm
While I agree that my response is probably more like a two year old temper tantrum .....I feel justified in stomping my feet since the online query of the catalog misinforms a patron about the availability of a title and its location. Any IT person worth his or her salt could correct the situation so that a query at any time along the path of checkout and return will reflect the proper status, availability and location.
My complaints fell on deaf ears simply because nobody cared about a situation that affected only one patron. Well, they underestimate this one patron and his ability to fix stupid.
Meezer_Mom
7-13-17, 10:49am
Public libraries exist for all, regardless of who has "paid more" in property taxes. That freeloading child whose single mother has a voucher for rent, may be the nurse taking your vitals in 10 years. The homeless man making use of the free computer could be looking for services to become stable enough to re-enter the workforce. Point being, those free services frugalistas use to avoid opening their wallets can make a world of difference for others who don't have a wallet to open today.
Shame on anyone who doesn't get that.
goldensmom
7-13-17, 11:04am
Public libraries exist for all, regardless of who has "paid more" in property taxes. That freeloading child whose single mother has a voucher for rent, may be the nurse taking your vitals in 10 years. The homeless man making use of the free computer could be looking for services to become stable enough to re-enter the workforce. Point being, those free services frugalistas use to avoid opening their wallets can make a world of difference for others who don't have a wallet to open today.
Shame on anyone who doesn't get that.
Thank you for your insight. I accept your rebuke and am humbled. I confess that I am not as enlightened or as well informed as some on this forum and never intend to offend but apparently I have and I apologize.
rosarugosa
7-13-17, 5:27pm
Williamsmith: Do let us know if you succeed in "fixing stupid." :)
Williamsmith: Do let us know if you succeed in "fixing stupid." :)
We used to call this sort of thing "work to rule" in the union, and it was generally an attempt to get some silly rule re-examined.
Williamsmith
7-13-17, 9:29pm
Williamsmith: Do let us know if you succeed in "fixing stupid." :)
Right then, I will be sure to report any success straight away as I'm sure you will all be waiting in anticipation. But I warn you, fixing stupid can be a very complicated process. I suspect the librarians will continue shipping books crisscrossing the county like a spidersweb as long as the mailing funds hold out. It's a very large county and there are strict rules after all.
My mother was fond of saying "You can educate ignorance but you can't fix stupid". Often in the context of something stupid I had recently done.
Gardenarian
7-17-17, 3:10pm
Not a money-maker for our library - as I said, they don't charge the patrons.
Our library has but a single site - the books being asked for do not exist in the collection. Someone in "collections management" decided that nobody ever needed to read the first book in the Dune trilogy, or the 2nd Harry Potter book. And so on.
Bae - I've been a librarian for over 30 years and these are a couple of my pet peeves. I suggest you talk to your library director about the ILL nonsense. Not everything is available on Amazon - musical scores and older scholarly works are particularly difficult to find. They should put a system in place where if it's cheaper to purchase it, then they should do so. ILL costs can vary greatly depending on the item; I'm sure in some cases it is less expensive than purchasing.
The series problem is one that drives me nuts. A lot of small libraries only have part of a series. What use is that? It's like buying half of a book. They should either get the entire series or discard it. When it was my responsibility, I made sure that we had every book in a particular series, cataloged the books to reflect its place in the series, and in some cases (Asimov's Robot books comes to mind) created a list of the series books, in order, and pasted them inside the cover.
My library has a number of people who complain about the taxes. My feeling is, if you can afford to own twenty tax parcels worth over ten million dollars, then you shouldn't gripe about funding the public library. The library is one of our most visible institutions, but is certainly not the most wasteful.
iris lilies
7-17-17, 6:08pm
Even those in "collections management" (ah, it's a real thing, not a quotable faux thing :)) can't always know volumes are missing from a series. Those pesky library users check books out and sometimes don't return them. and there is no software to alert library staff "hey, you are missing volume 2 of the X Trilogy." That's why I wanted ILL requests to be sent to my collections management staff, those requests sometimes acted as alerts to holes in the collection. Or sometimes a volumes is withdrawn due to condition and no one checks to see if all others in the series are intact, the popularity of the series, and if it should be replaced. That is more problematic when there are 17 branches and volumes in a series are scattered over the library system.
I had no idea that the cost for inter library loan was so high. I've used it quite a few times but will be more discriminating in the future.
I use, for lack of a better term, our system transfer policy very regularly. there are nine branches in our system. I also am indiscriminately returning items that were checked out at library A but I return to library B. Unlike WS, there's no reason other than convenience. Cost is not on my radar. I wonder if the costs are available to me? I will ask next time.
iris lilies
7-18-17, 7:20pm
I use, for lack of a better term, our system transfer policy very regularly. there are nine branches in our system. I also am indiscriminately returning items that were checked out at library A but I return to library B. Unlike WS, there's no reason other than convenience. Cost is not on my radar. I wonder if the costs are available to me? I will ask next time.
That's called "intra-library " activity. Sure there is a cost when library delivery staff drive the book you borrowed back to its home branch but hey, they want you to use the library so in most cases they encourage that. One library I can think of instigated a fee to return a book to its home branch, but I dont think that lasted.
Many library systems experiment with the concept of "no real home library " for intra-branch transactions. If a book sits on the shelf at Branch A, you retrieve it and return to Branch B, it stays at B.
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