View Full Version : Apache leader asks for apology from Obama
Here's the article from a local news station. Apparently the leader of the Apache tribe thinks it was very insulting for the U.S. to use "Geronimo" as the code name for Bin Laden. I thought it was the code name for the mission.
http://www.wthr.com/story/14572305/ap-newsbreak-tribe-seeks-apology-for-code-name
I don't think they even thought of it as being a put-down of Geronimo. My understanding (from childhood days) is that its something you yell out, just as you're going into battle.
What are your thoughts?
Anyone ever stationed at Ft. Sill is well aware of Geronimo's grave and his legacy. My only three memories of Ft. Sill are his grave, groundhogs, and Mt. Scott (artillery range). He was indeed a hero for many and deservingly so. If nothing else maybe this is a reminder of to all Americans of our shameful past with regard to Native Americans.
With regard to using the term "Geronimo" as the codeword for the OBL death, I think of "Geronimo" as badge of honor. People should use it to symbolize bravery! To symbolize going against odds!
Geronimoooooooo!
Peace
That's how I've always used the word ZZman! Our past is shameful, but I don't think the use of the word in this case was meant at all to be offensive or derogatory.
loosechickens
5-4-11, 8:55pm
At the time when the news was released, and I heard that the code name for bin Laden was Geronimo, it made me feel a bit queasy. So I can imagine how Apache people feel, because from their point of view, Geronimo was a hero who fought for their homeland during a period of our history, when the Indian people were seen by many, if not most whites as little more than "vermin" to be exterminated so settlers could settle in that "empty country".
Maybe it's because we recently spent time in the Chiracahua Mountains, in SE Arizona, where Geronimo and others fought for their homeland, but I thought it really did show some certain amount of insensitivity by whoever in the military is charged with coming up with code names.
But, it isn't the first time, and probably won't be the last. When you're part of the dominant segment of society, often you are completely unaware of slights that would make someone NOT a part of the dominant group wince badly. I'm sure it was not any kind of deliberate attempt to sully the memory of Geronimo, just not thinking, but............
And especially since Osama bin Laden was the furtherest thing from "brave", as he sat in a million dollar house, safe (he thought), while he encouraged and sent out followers to murder. VERY unlike Geronimo for sure.
Hmmm....well if they were referring to Bin Laden as Geronimo, then I would find that offensive. I was thinking it was just the name of the mission. :(
Why couldn't they have called him something like Lucifer?
Apparently, "Geronimo" has become a traditional USian battle cry. I know I've heard it used that way.
http://www.native-languages.org/iaq22.htm
At the time when the news was released, and I heard that the code name for bin Laden was Geronimo, it made me feel a bit queasy. So I can imagine how Apache people feel, because from their point of view, Geronimo was a hero who fought for their homeland during a period of our history, when the Indian people were seen by many, if not most whites as little more than "vermin" to be exterminated so settlers could settle in that "empty country".
Interestingly, he did most of his fighting against the Mexicans after an invading force killed his family, and Geronimo wasn't actually his name. It seems that in one battle against the Mexicans, his repeated attacks on individuals with his knife caused several soldiers to call out for help from Saint Jerome (Jeronimo). When later stories were told of his exploits, the name became attached to him.
If you consider the incident with Bin Laden in that context, I think the Geronimo codename is quite appropriate.
I swear......in today's world, its almost impossible to know what the truth is about anything.
I swear......in today's world, its almost impossible to know what the truth is about anything.
It generally just requires critical thinking skills and a bit of research talent.
"The Internet is full of misinformation" - Thomas Jefferson
loosechickens
5-5-11, 12:29am
Geronimo's real name in Apache was Goyaale, (it was spelled several different ways), and Alan is correct....the name Geronimo was bestowed on him during battles with the Mexicans. He made war against both Mexico and the U.S. forces for a number of years, but eventually surrendered to U.S. authorities in 1886 and was held as a prisoner of war for a number of years.
it's too bad that they didn't choose another name.....I think I like CathyA's idea of "Lucifer".
loosechickens
5-5-11, 12:34am
"It generally just requires critical thinking skills and a bit of research talent.
"The Internet is full of misinformation" - Thomas Jefferson" (bae)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA......bae, either you are driving me nuts lots of times, or cracking me up, but either way, you are never boring. And this time, I laughed so hard that if I'd been drinking coffee, my laptop would have been endangered.
LOL Bae......I almost missed that one!
I was drinking coffee and it was dangerously close! Thanks for the morning grin bae.
it's too bad that they didn't choose another name.....I think I like CathyA's idea of "Lucifer".
I still think Geronimo was a wonderful choice, but I suppose it really depends on how each of us views the world.
To me, if you look at the well documented, historical context of the name and it's usage, it is fitting to use a code name for bin Laden that reflects the final plea of an enemy when confronted with a fierce warrior. In my way of thinking it uses Goyaale's legend in a respectful manner.
In my USAF days, we got code names from from a randomly selected list of meaningless words.
I don't remember identity politics ever entering into it, but in many ways it was a simpler time.
Has there been any comment on the fact that the helicopters (Blackhawk, Chinook) used in the mission were named after 1) leader of the Sauk people, and 2) a Pacific NW tribe? I haven't seen any.
At any rate, I like "Geronimo" a lot better than "Commando Eagle," which I'm still laughing at.
The Storyteller
5-5-11, 12:05pm
If you look at the Wikipedia article on Geronimo, it says he died from being thrown from his horse. That isn't true. While doing some family research I ran across the original article in an Oklahoma newspaper. While returning from Lawton to Fort Sill from a drinking binge he fell off his horse into a ditch stone drunk and drowned in what amounted to a puddle.
That doesn't lessen his importance as a Native American leader, mind you, but just wanted to point out that he has been much mythologized. If anything, he was once again a victim to the white man, even in his ignominious death.
BTW, we should apologize. It was stupid and insensitive at the least. Geronimo was a warrior and nothing like the coward bin Laden.
BTW, we should apologize. It was stupid and insensitive at the least. Geronimo was a warrior and nothing like the coward bin Laden.
But isn't that the point of code names: to be nothing like the subject matter?
The Storyteller
5-5-11, 2:18pm
But isn't that the point of code names: to be nothing like the subject matter?
That would explain why Ronald Reagan was Rawhide, I guess.
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/ict_sbc/bin-laden-code-name-“geronimo”-is-a-bomb-in-indian-country/
This is an article making the rounds with the Native academics I know... thought it might help clarify this issue from a Native perspective...
It just seems like one can't say anything any more without someone or some group being offended. Maybe it was out of ignorance that the mission was given this code name....which could probably be viewed as an insensitivity to the Indians. I imagine if I were a native American that I would be offended too. I don't know if we're all getting too thin-skinned or if there's just so many different types of people that no matter what is said, its going to offend someone somewhere. It would be interesting to know exactly why the word Geronimo was chosen. Maybe its like naming hurricanes, and its all alphabetical and automatic.
I'm just getting tired of someone somewhere always complaining about something. I think being the president of the U.S. must be one of the most frustrating, thankless jobs in the universe.
The Storyteller
5-5-11, 6:02pm
But why Geronimo? I wonder how us white people would react if they code named him Lincoln. He was tall and bearded, after all. At the very least it would leave us asking, "Why??"
I doubt real malice played into it at all. Like I said, stupid and insensitive.
I think the entire controversy is silly. As individuals we can look at it several different ways. If we choose to see it as an insensitive, stupid move we're not looking at all the possibilities.
I posted one perspective earlier, but we could also consider it from the perspective that the warrior known as Geronimo was renowned for his ability to elude capture for a long period of time, just like bin Laden. A situational comparison but not a dis-respectful or insensitive one.
Or, we could believe that any reference to any controversial figure must be run through the filter of political correctness, which appears to be a popular option for many. I'll pass on that one.
Or, we could believe that any reference to any controversial figure must be run through the filter of political correctness...
The concept of "politically correct" is code for dismissing genuine concerns about prejudices. I don't believe everyone who uses the variations of this phrase do so with ill intent; it's become, sadly, a part of the vernacular. Alan, I don't think your intent is to be disrespectful.
The origin of the movements for choosing respectful language, and paying attention to the impact one's language has on others, was in a political context, and a context of exploring power relationships in this society. The so-called 'filters of political correctness' is a subtle and specific dismissal of the possibility that language can and is used to hurt others, to take power away from individuals and groups, and to damage credibility.
Here is a quote from the article I read, and posted, about the reaction in Indian Country to the name Geronimo being used as the code word for OBL -
"As news of bin Laden’s death spread relief across America and the world, revelations that the assigned code name of Enemy Number One was “Geronimo,” a legendary Apache leader, caused shock waves in Indian communities across the country. It is being interpreted as a slap in the face of Native people, a disturbing message that equates an iconic symbol of Native American pride with the most hated evildoer since Adolf Hitler."
If a community of people express their shock at a use of a name that is of their heritage and legacy, I believe it's respectful and important to pay attention to that. As a white person, I just might learn a thing or two about how my country has treated different groups of people. Institutionalized racism dominates most organizations and governments in the United States. If we have a shred of hope to undo this damage that we all suffer from, I believe that listening to people when they speak out about oppression and racism is paramount.
THAT is being politically correct.
As a white person, I just might learn a thing or two about how my country has treated different groups of people. Institutionalized racism dominates most organizations and governments in the United States. If we have a shred of hope to undo this damage that we all suffer from, I believe that listening to people when they speak out about oppression and racism is paramount.
THAT is being politically correct.
You're right, that is being politically correct. Seeing everything through the lens of racism and oppression guarantees the continuation of racism and oppression. But in the name of political correctness, that's what we do.
Just my humble opinion.
As a white person, I just might learn a thing or two about how my country has treated different groups of people.
Wow, what a racist thing to say.
Wow, what a racist thing to say.
How is my learning something by listening to others' experiences racist?
You're right, that is being politically correct. Seeing everything through the lens of racism and oppression guarantees the continuation of racism and oppression. But in the name of political correctness, that's what we do.
Just my humble opinion.
You think that listening to people who are historically oppressed by race, and by being aware of racism and oppression will guarantee its continuation? Seriously??
You think that listening to people who are historically oppressed by race, and by being aware of racism and oppression will guarantee its continuation? Seriously??
Sure, there's no one in this country who's ancestors weren't historically oppressed by race or nationality or sex or religion. But for the most part, nationalities and religions sort of blended into the national fabric of America. We've never allowed race to blend into our textiles, probably because of our sense of over privilege and self loathing for the sins of our ancestors. If we don't keep a wall of separation between races and ethnicities, we can't show our enlightenment through the celebration of our diversity.
When we stop thinking in terms of race, racism will go away. When we stop thinking in terms of hyphenated Americans, we'll all just be Americans.
Sure, there's no one in this country who's ancestors weren't historically oppressed by race or nationality or sex or religion. But for the most part, nationalities and religions sort of blended into the national fabric of America. We've never allowed race to blend into our textiles, probably because of our sense of over privilege and self loathing for the sins of our ancestors. If we don't keep a wall of separation between races and ethnicities, we can't show our enlightenment by celebrating our diversity.
When we stop thinking in terms of race, racism will go away. When we stop thinking in terms of hyphenated Americans, we'll all just be Americans.
I'm guessing that you & I are not using the term racism in the same way. I'm talking about institutionalized racism, not personal racism. It's at the institutional level - in this case, the federal government - that individual lives are impacted, for better or for worse.
Racism: prejudice plus power. Individuals, all of us, pre-judge all the time. It's a great short-hand to make decisions. I pre-judge what the cars in front of me are going to do, etc. I see a black male and cross the street; I pre-judge my vulnerability and the risks. He may be offended, but it's unlikely that his life will be impacted by individual action, however racist it is.
If I'm in a position of power, say as an employer interviewing for a staff position, and he walks in the door to interview, my pre-judgement of personal safety and risk affects his employability when I refuse to hire him. I represent and act on behalf of an institution, and deny him a job; that is institutional racism - and it's invisible, largely because I am ignorant of my own prejudices and the power I hold to keep him out. I am a gatekeeper, and my privilege as a gatekeeper gives me the power to deny someone a job based upon my individual prejudice.
When you learn not to judge, you'll stop being a gatekeeper. The first step is to stop categorizing people by color.
The Storyteller
5-5-11, 11:06pm
I think the entire controversy is silly. As individuals we can look at it several different ways. If we choose to see it as an insensitive, stupid move we're not looking at all the possibilities.
It is insensitive because it disregards Native Americans feelings. It is stupid because it shows a complete lack of understanding by our government, and needlessly offended them.
I'm guessing you don't know many Indians. Me, I live in Indian territory and know many. Anybody who knows even a few would know how this would be taken. As soon as I heard the reference, without knowing anything else, I thought, "What a stupid thing to do. What idiot thought that one up?"
Dumb dumb dumb.
BTW, I find your position more than a bit ironic considering all the whining done when people insult Republicans, conservatives, or their leaders.
When you learn not to judge, you'll stop being a gatekeeper. The first step is to stop categorizing people by color.
I believe you & I have a fundamental difference of definition of racism. I don't choose my institutional gatekeeping role, it's a privilege that I was born into by virtue of the fact that I was born caucasian in 20th century America; and being born middle class is an additional status booster to that role.
"Learn not to judge" is an interesting statement. I don't believe it's judgement that's the problem, it's the prejudice + power part that is. I cannot unlearn my power role in a stratified society - I can however step out of it as much as possible; perhaps that's what you mean?
The refuge I have of class and race privilege in this society is so multi-layered, and often so subtle that it's hard to unpeel the layers to look at it. I take refuge in those unearned privileges every day, and only notice it once in awhile... it always shocks me when I realize how and when I am a gatekeeper, and how that role impacts the people of color and poor folks with whom I interact.
There is a difference between personal racism and institutional racism - same is true for personal sexism and institutional sexism. It's relatively simple, although sometimes a real hassle, for me to ignore individually sexist men. If that sexist man is a doctor I'm relying on for care, or my child's teacher, or the person deciding if I get a mortgage or not, then he is harder to ignore or work around. His gender prejudice plus the power conferred by his role means that I or my child may not get fair treatment, and that I have to deal with his BS.
Stop categorizing people by color - what exactly does this mean? I am analyzing and naming the power structures that keep racism in place. These are the questions - who benefits when white people do better in every measure than people of color? What do those who most bear the brunt of race prejudice have to say about their lives and their experiences? What do I, born into the politically & economically dominant race in the US have to learn? How can I work to undo institutional racism and the corrosive effects it has on all of our lives?
Wishing it away by not thinking or talking about it - how does that work? Sounds like a fundamental denial of the realities of most how people of color live in this country, as well as the opportunities to change the power dynamics for the better for us all.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 12:07am
If you look at the Wikipedia article on Geronimo, it says he died from being thrown from his horse. That isn't true. While doing some family research I ran across the original article in an Oklahoma newspaper. While returning from Lawton to Fort Sill from a drinking binge he fell off his horse into a ditch stone drunk and drowned in what amounted to a puddle.
That doesn't lessen his importance as a Native American leader, mind you, but just wanted to point out that he has been much mythologized. If anything, he was once again a victim to the white man, even in his ignominious death.
I need to correct this before I can go to sleep tonight...
I checked the newspaper articles again. I got my stories mixed up. He actually died of pneumonia following several days illness, still a prisoner of war at Fort Sill. The falling-off-his-horse-drunk incident was a NEAR death experience (it almost killed him but didn't) that happened some four years earlier and was the catalyst for him converting to Christianity. Fortunately, he reverted proudly to his native religion before he died, something of great pride to a number of Oklahoma Indians. I got the stories mixed up because both times he was returning from Lawton to Sill, only the second time he was there selling bows and arrows to tourists for ridiculous sums when he was taken ill.
Sorry for the misinformation, President Jefferson. Although, Wiki still got it wrong.
loosechickens
5-6-11, 1:19am
Thanks, Redfox, for an excellent explanation. The problem with "white privilege" is that it is almost unnoticeable to whites, unless they are observant, empathetic and actually know lots of people of other races, religions, cultures, etc. it's why middle class white people always think they "made it on my own", without the slightest thought of the many ways that others experience prejudice while they experience an open door, whether it is for consideration for a job, a bank loan, a promotion or even where to buy a home.
It's why only the people in the dominant group have the luxury of talking about "political correctness" as well, while the people in the groups that suffer prejudice and discrimination spend their lives dealing with oblivious slights from people who don't even know they are doing it.
I am quite sure that no one in the military, or whoever is in charge of naming missions or targeted people's code names had the slightest intention of disrespecting Native peoples, but also quite probably was oblivious enough not to even be able to SEE why it would be a problem for them, especially given their history, and the revered position of Geronimo in that history.
People who are part of the dominant group in society really CAN'T suffer that kind of thing, because if someone were to attempt it, the example would be seen as a single example, not as representative of a whole group. If Geronimo had been a famous white warrior, the slight would have been seen as being against only him, not a group. There is the difference.
It's why when Timothy McVeigh bombed the Federal building in Oklahoma City, we didn't immediately become frightened or prejudiced against young, white men of rightwing conservative political leanings. Yet, 9/11 caused most Americans to feel prejudice and fear about Muslims, Arabs, and even Sikhs (who had nothing in common with them other than general "brownness" and "foreignness"). The 9/11 terrorists were seen as representatives of their group. Timothy McVeigh was seen as an individual person doing a terroristic act.
if you get it, it's simple, and you can understand completely why Native Americans would feel insulted and disrespected. And if you don't, it's almost impossible, and you'll just talk about "political correctness". I don't know how that gap is bridged, although hopefully it's possible.
Just my musings late at night here...... ;-)
BTW, I find your position more than a bit ironic considering all the whining done when people insult Republicans, conservatives, or their leaders.
It's all part and parcel the same thing. People separate themselves into groups and then attach an attitude of superiority to theirs. In this forum, for the longest time, a lot of the members freely disparaged all conservatives and republicans and tea partiers, et. al., and felt perfectly comfortable doing so. It's the same thing with racial and ethnic groups.
Pointing it out to the offenders might be seen as whining by those who practice it, but they'll never deal with their biases if they're not made aware. It would help if we didn't build a wall of separation between ourselves and others.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 10:00am
but they'll never deal with their biases if they're not made aware.
Which is all Native Americans are doing on this issue... pointing out our unconscious biases. You might not think they have a right to be offended, but they are. Thank you for validating the point I was trying to make.
When something is important to you and you are offended by someone here, you don't hesitate to let everyone know it. You need to extend to Native Americans that same right without calling their concerns "silly".
When something is important to you and you are offended by someone here, you don't hesitate to let everyone know it. You need to extend to Native Americans that same right without calling their concerns "silly".
Actually, in the broader sense, my point is that if we don't create artificial barriers, there's no reason to become offended.
As for the Geronimo controversy, it's silly to default to the oppressive, bigoted, institutional racism, position when there are other equally valid perspectives to consider. That demonstrates to me the reason why racism and bigotry continue to exist, because too many people prefer it over the alternative.
Actually, in the broader sense, my point is that if we don't create artificial barriers, there's no reason to become offended.
As for the Geronimo controversy, it's silly to default to the oppressive, bigoted, institutional racism, position when there are other equally valid perspectives to consider. That demonstrates to me the reason why racism and bigotry continue to exist, because too many people prefer it over the alternative.
Bringing down centuries-old racial barriers is precisely what undoing institutional racism is. A systemic approach emphasizes learning from history, and listening to what people of color are saying about their experiences; they live with racism every day, and have done so for generations. People of color are the experts on the impacts of racism.
Which is why it's hardly silly to listen to the Native American voices who are shocked and angry about the use of the name Geronimo in the context it was used. Rather than 'default' to a position - which implies lack of thinking and analysis - taking seriously the accusation of racism and considering the impacts is utilizing an opportunity to improve race relations and learn something about institutionalized racism.
And indeed, as Alan said, too many people do prefer racism over the hard work of undoing it. It's so much easier, especially as privileged whites, to find 'equally valid perspectives' instead of simply listening to the lamentations and anger of people who have been living with these kinds of excuses for too long. It's painful for white folks to hear about racism. It's difficult to own and talk about, because we're all good people, and good people don't do terrible things like engage in racist institutions, behavior and thinking.
Yea, I guess they should have given him the code name 'George Bush' since he was a clueless pretender who didn't actually do any fighting himself but was more than happy to send others to their deaths in the name of, well, we never did figure that one out, did we. ;)
Sure, I can see how this code name thing could work on many levels.
Let's see, how can we word this wisdom we are getting here.
"Set aside your barriers, and close your eyes to differences so the differences are dissolved and none may be harmed by innocent words.....but carry a gun where ever you go."
A few resources for those who want to explore undoing institutional racism~
Radio broadcast on Post Slave Traumatic Syndrome and institutionalized discrimination - http://www.kpfa.org/archive/id/69545
The People's Institute - there are Unlearning Institutional Racism workshops across the country using the tools and analysis developed over the years by this organization - http://www.pisab.org/
The website of probably the best know anti racist white activist, Tim Wise: http://www.timwise.org/ I particularly recommend this vid: http://www.timwise.org/2011/04/tim-wise-at-first-church-of-boston-april-20-2011-beached-white-males-and-the-pathology-of-privilege/
"Can't we all just get along?" - Albert Einstein
loosechickens
5-6-11, 1:56pm
One of the things it took me a long time to explain to my kids when they were young, bae, was that "often something is REALLY funny the first time, but repeated, falls flat".
In their case, we were often talking about "knock, knock" jokes, but...........................................
One of the things it took me a long time to explain to my kids when they were young, bae, was that "often something is REALLY funny the first time, but repeated, falls flat".
Perhaps you should have modelled better behaviour for them then, eh?
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 2:18pm
Actually, in the broader sense, my point is that if we don't create artificial barriers, there's no reason to become offended.
Somehow I doubt most Native Americans consider their culture and race to be either artificial or a barrier. Only the completely clueless would see it otherwise.
And clueless pretty much sums up the decision for this code name, I reckon.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 2:19pm
"Can't we all just get along?" - Albert Einstein
I thought that was Henry Ford.
And clueless pretty much sums up the decision for this code name, I reckon.
Doesn't offense require intent, mens rea?
So, if it was indeed "clueless", there was no intent, eh?
loosechickens
5-6-11, 2:38pm
Isn't the whole point that's been being MADE, bae, is that intent is not necessary for people to feel disrespected, hurt or angry? I don't "intend" to run over you with my car, but you're still injured........
I think the point has been made over and over that it's very likely that the people who chose that code name had no intent to insult, but instead were oblivious. And obliviousness comes when one is insulated from understanding that such things can and are hurtful, insulting and disrespectful. Insulated because THEY are not of the group that is being disrespected.
When you are not a person who lives in a beautiful home, yet when answering the door to deliverymen, etc., is often assumed to be the maid, you will be oblivious to the fact that such things happen with dismal regularity to people of color.
When you are not a member of a group in society that has met with and continues to meet with prejudice, disrespect, hurtful comments and sometimes outright bigotry, you will never know the raw places that people in those groups have.
In a word, a white male, who belongs to the most privileged of groups in this country is not only incapable, but not entitled to decide whether something is "politically correct" or not, to pass judgement on how the disrespected group should view something. All that person can do is LISTEN to the people who feel disrespected, and give them the respect of acknowledging what they are saying, and the reality TO THEM that they experience.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 2:46pm
Doesn't offense require intent, mens rea?
Only in a courtroom
I think I have said all along that this was just a boneheaded, insensitive blunder on the part of our government, hence the use of the word "stupid". No need for intent, there. I doubt most people set out to be purposely stupid. Sometimes they just are.
Like when they use a venerated Native American as a codename for a cowardly murderer.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 2:58pm
I think the big problem here is that most white people don't know any Native Americans. To most of them, they are people they see in movies about a long time ago. When you live right in the middle of them as I do, and you see them every day, you begin to learn a little about them. They are real people with real feelings.
But you don't have to live with them to understand why something might be offensive. Just look at your own life and think about what is dear to you, then imagine how you would feel if someone insulted or demeaned that important thing. More, that it was your own government that did so.
loosechickens
5-6-11, 3:25pm
Bae, I am not sure how technically you were able to show a "quote" supposedly from me, that I did not say, but please edit your post and delete the fraudulent "quote" you manufactured, and posted under my name.
You may disagree, comment or any other thing about something someone says on these boards, but you may NOT "quote" them fraudulently. That has gone way over the line, and if it is not against forum guidelines, it certainly should be.
It is fine to quote what someone actually says, but completely unacceptable to make up a quote, attribute it to a member of these forums, and attempt to pass it off as their words.
Edit or delete your post that fraudulently "quotes" me. Now.
Perhaps you should have modelled better behaviour for them then, eh?
That's a downright nasty statement, bae. Why would you be mean?
Edit or delete your post that fraudulently "quotes" me. Now.
Oh goodness, just ban me. You racist, sexist, classist bigot.
And since you've deleted my post, which was clearly well within the bounds of parody, and must have been obvious to anyone, I'll add "coward and abusive of your power" to the list.
That's a downright nasty statement, bae. Why would you be mean?
Perhaps it was the statement I was replying to.... Which was maternalistic and such.
loosechickens
5-6-11, 3:37pm
MOD HAT ON
bae, your edit of my "supposed quote" was unacceptable, and I have deleted your post. I suggest you try to get ahold of your ego, calm down, take a break and cool off.
you may disagree, comment, believe what you like about anyone here (although I suggest you edit or delete your second post as well), but you may NOT fraudulently "quote" someone, put words in their mouth that they did not say, and pass off your manufactrured "quote" as their own words. That is not only poor behavior and beneath you, but dishonest in the extreme.
bae, why are you being so aggressive and inappropriate? Is this your nature, to lash out? Are you feeling not listened to? What's happening? I would really appreciate the adult bae to return. Name calling and accusations are uncalled for, and disrespectful. Please stop it. Thanks. And please also come back when you can communicate respectfully. I may disagree with some of your positions, but I appreciate your perspectives.
What's happening?
Read these words below a few times, then think about what they say...
When you are not a member of a group in society that has met with and continues to meet with prejudice, disrespect, hurtful comments and sometimes outright bigotry, you will never know the raw places that people in those groups have.
In a word, a white male, who belongs to the most privileged of groups in this country is not only incapable, but not entitled to decide whether something is "politically correct" or not, to pass judgement on how the disrespected group should view something. All that person can do is LISTEN to the people who feel disrespected, and give them the respect of acknowledging what they are saying, and the reality TO THEM that they experience.
Read these words below a few times, then think about what they say...
You're feeling unfairly judged. Is this correct? I must confess - I am not a mind reader.
Loosie, it was parody and simply distilled one long wordy paragraph into a concise statement, without losing or adding to your meaning.
I know it always gets me into trouble pointing out your overstepping your bounds, but honestly, you've done it again.
Loosie, it was parody and simply distilled one long wordy paragraph into a concise statement, without losing or adding to your meaning.
I know it always gets me into trouble pointing out your overstepping your bounds, but honestly, you've done it again.
I disagree. Bae is making disrespectful comments. And the term 'loosie' is also disrespectful. What's up?
We all agreed to this when we signed up:
"* Please be courteous to others. It's okay to disagree with someone. But we encourage positive, friendly debates. Flaming is not allowed and will result in removal of your posts and termination of your account."
I disagree. Bae is making disrespectful comments. And the term 'loosie' is also disrespectful. What's up?
I always call her Loosie, and she's always called me whatever she wanted, much of it not at all flattering. We've openly discussed the use of pet names on the old forums and she's acknowledged that she didn't mind.
Given that, why would you decide on your own that it's disrespectful when there is absolutely no evidence to justify it? That sort of takes us back on topic doesn't it?
I always call her Loosie, and she's always called me whatever she wanted. We've openly discussed the use of pet names on the old forums and she's acknowledged that she didn't mind.
Given that, why would you decide on your own that it's disrespectful when there is absolutely no evidence to justify it?
Good to know, thanks. Sounded disrespectful to me.
Good to know, thanks. Sounded disrespectful to me.
So, since you've previously declared it disrespectful, without knowing background, does that mean that I, as a white male, am not entitled to disagree?
I'm asking because that seems to be the concensus on the Geronimo issue. That any person or group who finds something said or done by a white male to be disrespectful is right, regardless of any intent or lack thereof. Further, that it is boneheaded and stupid for any white male or other person of privilege to do anything that might make someone else come to a conclusion that may have no merit whatsoever.
I think I got that right. Do you agree?
loosechickens
5-6-11, 4:14pm
Alan, you intend calling me "Loosie", as disrespectful, as you only use it when you are attempting to disparage. I've told you that "I don't mind", not because I don't recognize how you use it, but because in order for you to disparage, and me to feel insulted, I have to somehow cooperate, and if I choose to ignore your disparagement, it's not very powerful, is it? So feel free to continue, but eliminate the pretense that it's just "all in fun", and that you are not attempting a put down by using it.
Perhaps it's time for a few white guys, who by their positions in our society, are seldom subjected to any kind of disrespect, to reconsider their opinions about how disrespected groups in our society should just look at perceived slights "differently". Even without a lifetime of disrespect, bigotry, hurtful remarks, and prejudice being directed at them, they have a mighty thin skin when they perceive a slight. Just imagine how a group that IS commonly disrespected through their lives feels about something like this Geronimo code name for bin Laden.
BUT.......no matter how bruised your ego is, on these forums at least, you cannot put false "quotes" into someone's mouth and pass them off in an official quote box as being that person's words. And if you do so, not only will that post be deleted by moderators, but such behavior will risk continued participation on the boards.
NOW......back to the discussion of the feelings of Native Americans about having one of their heroes name being used as a code name for Osama bin Laden. This discussion is not really about whether white males feel somehow disrespected because a moderator deletes a fraudulent post they make. It's not really all about YOU, guys.
I have to leave and go out this afternoon. Try to calm down, get the discussion back into acceptable territory, please. And, if you can, just think for a bit about how angry YOU can get when you feel disrespected....there is a learning opportunity here.
"No White Males Allowed". Got it.
From the original link that started this topic:
"Geronimo is a legend among Apaches and other tribes for the fierce fighting he brought on during the 19th century as he tried to protect his land, his people and their way of life from encroachment by U.S. and Mexican armies.
After the families of Geronimo and other warriors were captured and sent to Florida, he and 35 warriors surrendered to Gen. Nelson A. Miles near the Arizona-New Mexico border in 1886. Geronimo eventually was sent to Fort Sill in Oklahoma, where he died of pneumonia in 1909.
Lawmakers' consideration of how racial stereotypes impact native people marks an important step toward healing the tragic history of Native Americans, said Tina Osceola, a representative of the Seminole chairman.
'If we are carelessly stereotyped as enemies of the state by the highest levels of government, then how will our voices ever be relevant,' she said. 'That is not the change we expected and were promised by this president.'
Gali hopes the Senate committee presses for remedies, including an apology from the government.
'There are a number of steps that can be taken,' she said. 'Racism is very ingrained, and there's a long way to go to be able to make it right.' "
Racism is very ingrained, and there's a long way to go to be able to make it right. There are so many opportunities we each have to work to correct the systemic racism around us. Scared white folks may feel they're being asked to step to the back of the bus... why does that feel so frightening? The possibility of losing race privilege? The sense of no longer mattering? What does it feel like if you believe the message to be "No White Males Allowed", as bae stated?
Here are some thinking points that were a part of the YWCA National Stand Against Racism Day, which was last Friday:
-Notice what ethnic groups are missing from your workplace, neighborhood, church, and social groups.
-Become aware of what assumptions you may have about other ethnic groups.
-Make a list of them and commit yourself to counteract or unlearn them.
-Speak up when you hear someone make a racist remark.
-Get to know co-workers of different ethnic groups.
-Read magazines (I would add websites) that are directed at ethnic groups other than your own.
-Read books written about race and ethnicity in our country to broaden your understanding.
-Learn about the histories of other ethnic groups in the US.
-Think about why people find it so difficult to talk about racism in an ethnically mixed group. (Or at all. My addition.)
-Discuss this with others of your own ethnicity and those who are ethnically different.
-Notice how people avoid talking about differences. Think about what this avoidance creates. What does it mean to be different in your community? Talk with others about this.
-Find other who are taking steps to combat racism and become their ally.
The Pledge Against Racism:
As an individual committed to social justice, I stand with the YWCA against racism and discrimination of any kind.
I will commit to a lifetime of promoting peace, justice, freedom, and dignity for all people in my community and in the world.
Learn more at StandAgainstRacism.org
Peace out!
Alan, you intend calling me "Loosie", as disrespectful, as you only use it when you are attempting to disparage. I've told you that "I don't mind", not because I don't recognize how you use it, but because in order for you to disparage, and me to feel insulted, I have to somehow cooperate, and if I choose to ignore your disparagement, it's not very powerful, is it? So feel free to continue, but eliminate the pretense that it's just "all in fun", and that you are not attempting a put down by using it.
LooseChickens, you know that is not true. I've felt very comfortable calling you Loosie, with your permission, for a long time now and up until this very post have done it consistently.
Putting your spin on it at this point is nothing more than an opportunistic attempt to show how put-upon you are. I'm not gonna play that game with you.
Alan, I'm interested in your home community. How is race talked about there? You're in Ohio, is that right? When I lived in Missouri, a state that seceded, it was a very hot button topic.
Isn't the whole point that's been being MADE, bae, is that intent is not necessary for people to feel disrespected, hurt or angry? I don't "intend" to run over you with my car, but you're still injured........
I think the point has been made over and over that it's very likely that the people who chose that code name had no intent to insult, but instead were oblivious. And obliviousness comes when one is insulated from understanding that such things can and are hurtful, insulting and disrespectful. Insulated because THEY are not of the group that is being disrespected.
When you are not a person who lives in a beautiful home, yet when answering the door to deliverymen, etc., is often assumed to be the maid, you will be oblivious to the fact that such things happen with dismal regularity to people of color.
When you are not a member of a group in society that has met with and continues to meet with prejudice, disrespect, hurtful comments and sometimes outright bigotry, you will never know the raw places that people in those groups have.
In a word, a white male, who belongs to the most privileged of groups in this country is not only incapable, but not entitled to decide whether something is "politically correct" or not, to pass judgement on how the disrespected group should view something. All that person can do is LISTEN to the people who feel disrespected, and give them the respect of acknowledging what they are saying, and the reality TO THEM that they experience.
I absolutely agree. (I just love how smart people suddenly become dumb when that pretend ignorance allows them to twist meaning)
I know exactly what you're saying. A privileged, white person declaring someone else's feelings of racism 'silly' is akin to a man telling a woman in childbirth "It's not that bad"
It reminds me of the person who always says "no you're not" if you say your tired or sick or hungry, or "no it didn't" if you say "that hurt" when stubbing a toe or whatever.
I'm pretty sure the one who came up with the code name is, a) young (and maybe clueless about history) B)Thinking "Jump!" or "Go" instead of native american
I think this is a case where someone just wasn't thinking, but now that they have had time to think about it should just apologise and move on, hopefully learning something. Really, the longer they try to cling to the "we didn't mean anything by it/ shades of meaning" defense, the more insensitive and clueless they appear.
Thank God for this forum - I sometime think I am the only dysfunctional person on the planet,
I'm convinced we are still evolving and it is so interesting to think back 10-20-30-40 years ago and quickly realize that our future is probably beyond our imagination. For that I am thankful.
Peace
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 8:54pm
"No White Males Allowed". Got it.
You sound offended.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 10:28pm
Oh goodness, just ban me. You r*****, s*****, c/***** b****.
Yeah, that should do the trick.
I love it. Here we have two white guys (at least one of them a RICH white guy) dismissing Native Americans for taking offense at the use of particular words, themselves taking offense at the use of particular words.
You can't make this stuff up, folks.
I didn't dismiss Native Americans. Perhaps you should read the thread.
I *did* dismiss Certain Moderators who were telling white men that they are, by their very gender and race, incapable of forming an opinion, or of even being entitled to an opinion, and that they should just shut up and get in the back of the bus.
Sorry, that's blatant racism and sexism.
And we'll never be a civil society while that record is being played over and over by the same people.
The Storyteller
5-6-11, 10:59pm
I didn't dismiss Native Americans. Perhaps you should read the thread.
Whatever. [That's me being dismissive.]
Loosechickens and Gregg, I sent you both a private message. Since the notification system on this board is sorely lacking I thought I would give you a public heads up.
that they should just shut up and get in the back of the bus.
Preface: I disagree that this is what was said... nonetheless...
What's your problem with hearing "shut up and go to the back of the bus"?
Alan, I'm interested in your home community. How is race talked about there? You're in Ohio, is that right? When I lived in Missouri, a state that seceded, it was a very hot button topic.
Living in Missouri, I can tell you that here in this city everything is about race, even (and especially) when it is not-- and it is tiresome.
But sure, it's all about point of view. Who's point of view is dominant? We'll never solve that one.
Thank God for this forum - I sometime think I am the only dysfunctional person on the planet...
Peace
Well, didn't we already establish that you ARE the only dysfunctional person according to Texas values in Texas?:) Texas is pretty big, but it's not the entire planet.
I think? you are mistaking Republican values with Texas values.
I grew in a state that is and was much different than it is today. We had leaders like Sam Rayburn, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordon, LBJ, Charlie Wilson, Lloyd Bentsen. In the last 30 years that involved into Phil Gramm, Karl Rove, George Bush 41 and 43, Rick Perry, Dick Armey, and of course Tom Delay.
Yes times change but I don't think the present values of these people represent Texas values - they are Republican values. But the pendulum swings so I'll just be glad when it makes it's cycle. Texas like most of America has forgotten it's roots and it has not been good for very many of us that still value liberty.
Peace
Yes times change but I don't think the present values of these people represent Texas values - they are Republican values. But the pendulum swings so I'll just be glad when it makes it's cycle. Texas like most of America has forgotten it's roots and it has not been good for very many of us that still value liberty.
Peace
Just out of curiosity, how have Republican values infringed upon your liberty?
I don't understand much of your rant, zig, but I will say that your man in the White House keeps on keepin' on with that bad ass Patriot Act. Remember the hue and cry on this very list, rants and cries and threads that went on and on and on about the thing?
Gosh, there's been nary a comment since it was renewed, although to be honest I DO remember at least one supporter of the Prez disclaiming it 'though don't remember who (and now I'm sure that all of you will calim to be that person--but no way, Jose. But when it was Bush's baby ya'll couldn't scuttle away from it fast enough.
I don't understand much of your rant, zig.....
I didn't understand it either, but now it's gone. Oh well.....
I don't understand much of your rant, zig, but I will say that your man in the White House keeps on keepin' on with that bad ass Patriot Act. Remember the hue and cry on this very list, rants and cries and threads that went on and on and on about the thing?
Gosh, there's been nary a comment since it was renewed, although to be honest I DO remember at least one supporter of the Prez disclaiming it 'though don't remember who (and now I'm sure that all of you will calim to be that person--but no way, Jose. But when it was Bush's baby ya'll couldn't scuttle away from it fast enough.
I deleted my post Lily - too much mota! Agreed about the Patriot Act - Bush was a scumbag and Obama is a wus! I honestly think that the powers that be think that the "new normal" (torture, invasions of privacy, lock someone up forever) is accepted so it will continue. If you say something enough, for long enough, people believe it.
Peace
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/5/6/native_american_activist_winona_laduke_on
Another explanation by Winona LaDuke.
<<<MOD HAT ON>>>
Sorry to come late to the party gang, I was out for the weekend. There are a lot of comments in this thread, from all corners, that are quite surprising to me because of how inappropriate they are. Even so, the appropriate level of moderation seems to be to remind everyone here to take a deep breath. (Moderation is highly subjective, but I prefer to attempt to err on the side of the 1st Amendment.) It appears the major s___ storm has blown over, but that does not take away from the emotions that have been expressed.
I am reminding everyone here that the guidelines do not tollerate personal attacks on other posters or their beliefs. The link below will take you to the current Forum Etiquette section. It is not highly detailed and shouldn't need to be. When in doubt it may be a good idea to walk away for a little bit. Calvin Coolidge said, "I have never been hurt by what I have not said". At very least it will never hurt anyone to cool down and let their thoughts clear before posting.
Please keep your posts on topic and directed at the topic. Quote accurately, speak in a civil manner and show respect for other's beliefs. Simple as that. If anyone has questions please feel free to contact any of the mods or administrators directly, but I think this is a group that is rational enough and adult enough to keep discussions civil.
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?12-Forum-Etiquette
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