Never Cry for Money

[catherine]

I watch Shark Tank a lot. It's really a fun show. For those unfamiliar/unplugged: A panel of five millionaire/billionaire entrepreneurs listen to starting entrepreneurs' pitches to invest in their businesses, and they either decide to or not.

One of the more arrogant and obnoxious judges, Kevin O'Leary, had just listened to a woman pleading and sobbing that her business was her life and that she would work hard to make good on the investment if they gave it to her.

After she left, before the cut to the commercial, he commented to his fellow panelists, "Never cry for money. It doesn't cry for you."

It was flip and off-hand, but I thought it was a great simple statement. As we know from YMOL, we all have a relationship with money. As with all relationships, there are emotions involved. Motivations for spending, for saving, for giving it an important place for your life, for fear that it will "abandon" you.

I think Kevin's comment said, in less than 10 words, is that it's just money. It's meant to serve us, not the other way around. As my uncle said, "it's just a means of exchange." But somehow it blows up to be so much more--we use it for power, status, identity, security. We invest hours, days, years, decades of our life energy for it.

With our house closing next week, I caught my husband in a tearful moment. He was misty over the fact that all the proceeds of the house next door are going for debt. I think he was hoping that we could continue on the painful path of writing checks every month--checks heavy-laden with interest so that it would have taken us for the rest of our lives to pay it back. He was hoping I'd keep writing the checks, and he could use this last bit of legacy from his mother for a small vacation home in Vermont. He wanted to be the man, the husband, the dad who was able at the end of the day to provide something of value to his family. Something that represented what his mother always wanted for us.

But it's a bit of an illusion. It's just money. It's not your status as husband or dad. It can't bring back your mother. It's just money. The reality is that in my case--the "present" state of my life energy will no longer be dragged down by the past, or mortgaged to the future.

I like that... "Never cry for money. It doesn't cry for you." I should embroider it on a pillow.

[Lainey]

Well said, Catherine.
So much of economic theory depends on the idea that people respond logically to events, e.g., if the interest rate is x, then y will happen.
But humans do tie a lot of emotion into money. The trick is to disengage from that which is difficult when we live in a society where money defines our status.

[rosarugosa]

I agree with the wisdom there. JD Roth has written about how psychology is the critical element in personal finance, and that if it were truly about math, we would all be making totally logical decisions, and nobody would have debt or make senseless purchases.
I'm glad you're going to be strong and put the proceeds from MIL's house to the sanest use. Freeing yourself from the servitude to debt is surely more important than the grand gesture of a vacation home purchase.

[SteveinMN]

Freeing yourself from the servitude to debt is surely more important than the grand gesture of a vacation home purchase.
Maybe it's just me, but providing for the security of one's family is a 'husband/dad' thing. This time it's in the form of economic security (freedom from bills). Nothing wrong with that.

[Tybee]

First, I am so excited that you are getting BIL's house moved along and retiring the debt and all that comes with the debt. For me debt is so stressful-- getting rid of that stress is something to celebrate!

I totally get the crying thing, from both sides, I think. We confuse money with the ability to do things for our families, for ourselves; money is potential and as we get older, we worry about dwindling potential and we worry about legacy. It hurts to NOT be able to leave a legacy--but I think that then we get confused and use the money available to us for the wrong things--fail to take care of ourselves, fail to realize just how much it costs to live. The BIL house seems representative of that confusion, that vagueness--it is not okay that it was maintained by the debt that you took on--it was living beyond means, if that makes sense. So you were trying to be kind, to save everyone--but it ends up hurting you with the debt.

I heard a good saying about debt yesterday--that we keep getting situations that tempt us to solve them with debt until we learn the lesson, but that the opportunities to learn the lesson get increasingly painful. So if that is true, then maintaining the house debt to buy a vacation house would be yet another in the escalating lessons--if you had not learned the lesson from the last time you bailed out the house, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I kind of understand both angles on this crying question, I think. We feel the pain and then we grab at our addictive substance of choice to deal with the pain--for some it is booze, for others debt. Better to do what you are doing, and separate out the real issues from the debt response.

SO glad you are going to be out of debt by end of year. What a Christmas present that will be!!

And then save up and pay cash for the vacation house--it will happen!

[ApatheticNoMore]

I agree with never cry for money, or I've made bad decisions ( not stupid one's but finances can get complex) that have cost me, and I don't like it all mind you, but never cry for money. Basically I believe it's unseemly and wrong to complain about or cry for money if you have enough to live. However I have cried when I've lost a job. That one seems so basic as it's just the raw fear of the complete unknown and ultimately uncontrollable (when and if one will get another job etc.) and the feelings of failure that come with losing a job as well. So if she sees her business the same way ..

[razz]

I had a visit from a friend who is exhausted after downsizing to their last home as they both face health issues but can be independent for some time to come, I hope.
The move was extremely painful as her DH could not give up anything without a huge battle. He wanted the full value for junk or stuff that he had used for years or not used ever. Stuff was piled up in friends' garages, rental units, etc., in order to leave their old house. It took months for extended family to help work through boxes of stuff after the move to realize that they have no place for it. I had tried to tell her that if they had used it or not, if they no longer needed it, simply dispose of it as it had no value for them anymore. Her DH would not budge on anything but physically could not help due to health issues. She is so tired from the struggles for over a year that her new home is not giving her the joy that she had so looked forward to seeing.

Stuff is just stuff and don't cry over money is so true. Both stuff and money are just tools.

[flowerseverywhere]

We paid off our 30 year mortgage in 9 years. As we got to the end we were like crazy people spending the bare minimum on everything. The day we paid it off we left the credit union and when we got in the car DH burst into tears. He had a lot of health issues and was unsure how long he would be able to work at his present capacity. This took such a burden off us he literally lost it.

I view money as a tool. I hope when the house sells you let yourself cry tears of joy and relief.

[flowerseverywhere]

I had a visit from a friend who is exhausted after downsizing to their last home as they both face health issues but can be independent for some time to come, I hope.
The move was extremely painful as her DH could not give up anything without a huge battle. He wanted the full value for junk or stuff that he had used for years or not used ever. Stuff was piled up in friends' garages, rental units, etc., in order to leave their old house. It took months for extended family to help work through boxes of stuff after the move to realize that they have no place for it. I had tried to tell her that if they had used it or not, if they no longer needed it, simply dispose of it as it had no value for them anymore. Her DH would not budge on anything but physically could not help due to health issues. She is so tired from the struggles for over a year that her new home is not giving her the joy that she had so looked forward to seeing.

Stuff is just stuff and don't cry over money is so true. Both stuff and money are just tools.

Your kids don't want your stuff. We asked our kids and there were very few things they thought would be useful to them. I love that the focus on decluttering continues here. Use up your yarn and fabric, sort through your closet and clean out all your junk drawers. An uncluttered living space brings much peace and calm in your life.

[ToomuchStuff]

Just asked a question in another post, I find the answer to here. Congratulations, now to see if you can get him moved somewhere that isn't your house.


Maybe it's just me, but providing for the security of one's family is a 'husband/dad' thing. This time it's in the form of economic security (freedom from bills). Nothing wrong with that.

Not sure what your reading here, but Catherine would be doing the dad/husband thing in this instance, and her husband is wanting to do the wasteful thing of getting another property and continuing the debt, by the way I read it.

Money is not only emotionless, but amoral.

[catherine]

First, I am so excited that you are getting BIL's house moved along and retiring the debt and all that comes with the debt. For me debt is so stressful-- getting rid of that stress is something to celebrate!

I totally get the crying thing, from both sides, I think. We confuse money with the ability to do things for our families, for ourselves; money is potential and as we get older, we worry about dwindling potential and we worry about legacy. It hurts to NOT be able to leave a legacy--but I think that then we get confused and use the money available to us for the wrong things--fail to take care of ourselves, fail to realize just how much it costs to live. The BIL house seems representative of that confusion, that vagueness--it is not okay that it was maintained by the debt that you took on--it was living beyond means, if that makes sense. So you were trying to be kind, to save everyone--but it ends up hurting you with the debt.

I heard a good saying about debt yesterday--that we keep getting situations that tempt us to solve them with debt until we learn the lesson, but that the opportunities to learn the lesson get increasingly painful. So if that is true, then maintaining the house debt to buy a vacation house would be yet another in the escalating lessons--if you had not learned the lesson from the last time you bailed out the house, if that makes sense.

Anyway, I kind of understand both angles on this crying question, I think. We feel the pain and then we grab at our addictive substance of choice to deal with the pain--for some it is booze, for others debt. Better to do what you are doing, and separate out the real issues from the debt response.

SO glad you are going to be out of debt by end of year. What a Christmas present that will be!!

And then save up and pay cash for the vacation house--it will happen!

Thank you. I agree with everything you said, and I would hope at this point I have learned my lessons about debt!

[Gardnr]

Thank you. I agree with everything you said, and I would hope at this point I have learned my lessons about debt!

Record somehow, the feelings and comments when the "we are out of debt" conversation happens between the 2 of you. Keep that in mind anytime you 2 consider new debt. There is NOTHING that feels as good as ZERO DEBT! Life offers so many more options when debt free.

Catherine, you have been carrying the burden of this so you most certainly should stand firm on ZERO DEBT! Focus on the now and the debt free retirement future! It will happen so much sooner with no debt.

[rosarugosa]

TooMuchStuff: Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took this to mean that under the circumstances, it would actually be more of the "husband/dad thing" to support Catherine in doing the more financially responsible thing and get them out of debt.

[iris lilies]

Record somehow, the feelings and comments when the "we are out of debt" conversation happens between the 2 of you. Keep that in mind anytime you 2 consider new debt. There is NOTHING that feels as good as ZERO DEBT! Life offers so many more options when debt free.

Catherine, you have been carrying the burden of this so you most certainly should stand firm on ZERO DEBT! Focus on the now and the debt free retirement future! It will happen so much sooner with no debt.
Yes! OP I am so happy that you will soon be out of debt.

it makes me sad to know that your husband, and to a lesser extent you, don't immediately recognize and value the wonderful rich family connectedness you guys have provided for your children and now grandchildren. That ain't chopped liver ya know

[LDAHL]

I don't think you should ever cry over money. Although I have kicked myself over the occasional boneheaded financial decision. Stupidity, especially one's own, is something to cry about.

I have enough history of bruises, burns and lacerations from mishandled tools to respect the proposition that money is really just a tool requiring a certain degree of respect. You can misuse the tools of finance as badly as any other. Like any other discipline, finance requires a certain level of self-control and perhaps even self-knowledge. It's been said, for instance, that if you don't know who you are the stock market can be a very expensive place to find out.

I don't think the standard American (or evidently anyone else's) education really equips most of us with a proper understanding of the nature of leverage, the time value of money or how to assess risk. It makes us the prey of salesmen and hack politicians as much as our own foolishness.

I congratulate Catherine on making the boring, intelligent decision.

[SteveinMN]

TooMuchStuff: Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I took this to mean that under the circumstances, it would actually be more of the "husband/dad thing" to support Catherine in doing the more financially responsible thing and get them out of debt.
rosa, you read it right. Thank you.

[iris lilies]

Yes! OP I am so happy that you will soon be out of debt.

it makes me sad to know that your husband, and to a lesser extent you, don't immediately recognize and value the wonderful rich family connectedness you guys have provided for your children and now grandchildren. That ain't chopped liver ya know

Edited to add: by this I mean, you don't need no steenkin' vacation house to create memories and legacy because you have given your family a lot of human capital legacy. :D

[SteveinMN]

Your kids don't want your stuff. We asked our kids and there were very few things they thought would be useful to them.
I don't remember if I mentioned it in another decluttering thread. But for years I'd toted around a few boxes of ephemera -- brochures and newspapers from places I visited, ticket stubs from concerts I'd enjoyed,... Not that I looked at it very often. But I could not bring myself to throw it away/recycle it.

This time, however, I saw it differently: would my granddaughter enjoy pawing through this stuff from either a historic sense or to get to know her grandfather better? No? Then out it goes. Down to one quarter of one of the boxes. And once she's had a chance to look at it, that may go, too.

[catherine]

Edited to add: by this I mean, you don't need no steenkin' vacation house to create memories and legacy because you have given your family a lot of human capital legacy. :D

I got it, IL. Thank you. You're right--and I don't take my family for granted. I guess I have been of the mindset that I want to gift my kids what I have been gifted. My grandfather paid for my college education. My great-aunt and uncle enabled me to spend glorious childhood summers at the beach in their vacation home. My MIL gave us an incredibly generous down-payment for our house. So, essentially, I want to give our kids what it took three of my family members to give me, LOL. It's just that I'm just so grateful for my family and my blessings in life and I'm trying to pay it forward. I know that the biggest blessing is just...us being together.