The Case Against Living

[LDAHL]

https://aeon.co/essays/having-children-is-not-life-affirming-its-immoral

This professor advances the argument that "coming into existence is always a harm", and that it is morally wrong to bring new human life into being without the consent of the not-yet-born; we humans being so capable of suffering and inflicting suffering. Sort of an academic treatment of the ancient adolescent protest: "I didn't ask to be born".

In answer to the inevitable question of why he himself has not yet shuffled off this mortal coil, his response is something along the lines of some shows are bad, but not bad enough to walk out of. I personally find that line of thought a bit unconvincing. Would not murder then be an act of kindness?

I myself can think of several arguments for the continuation for the human race in general and myself and my progeny in particular.

It's not really all that bad now, and it might get even better better. Extinction can wait.

Existential spite.

Even if it's really so terrible, my suffering is only a short eye-blink in eternity anyway.

I wouldn't want to be so rude as to return the gift of existence.

I want to see my brat deal with kids of her own someday.

I owe it to the universe to mock tenured twits for as many years as possible.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I agree it is immoral to bring kids into existence, or if it is chosen, it is at least an extremely selfish decision, since one does it for one's own selfish purposes and ego gratification and so on, and it is they who will suffer for it. To bad parents don't even leave their own kids a choice of whether to have kids or not, nah if they get sterilized they won't tell I guess.

[Williamsmith]

I skimmed the article. After the first couple paragraphs I got flashbacks of me sitting in a church pew during a sermon on the rapture or predestination. If I can’t tackle the thoughts here with cogent argument, I’ll do it by feeling. It left me wondering what dark outlooks his students might ponder after being subjected to such negativity. Kind of the anti Norman Vincent Peale approach. I wonder what this guy thinks of “The Power of Positive Thinking.”

This world has plenty of negativity already....one more wont make much difference I guess but you have to ask yourself if he had the power to wipe out the human race...would he? It must be a ton of fun being his partner. Hoping he doesn’t want to Some day put you out of your misery...even though life really is grand for you.

Do you think his parents still send him happy birthday wishes?

[LDAHL]

I agree it is immoral to bring kids into existence, or at least very selfish, since one does it for one's own selfish purposes and ego gratification and so on, and it is they who will suffer for it.

I take it you don't send flowers on Mothers Day?

[LDAHL]

Do you think his parents still send him happy birthday wishes?

Perhaps by way of apology.

[Teacher Terry]

To bad parents don't even leave their own kids a choice of whether to have kids or not, nah if they get sterilized they won't tell I guess.

what are you talking about? Kids do get to decide if they want kids. Lots of negativity going around. Ugh!

[ApatheticNoMore]

To bad parents don't even leave their own kids a choice of whether to have kids or not, nah if they get sterilized they won't tell I guess.

what are you talking about? Kids do get to decide if they want kids. Lots of negativity going around. Ugh!

People who want to see their brat deal with their own kids someday may be too invested in grandkids. Those are the types of parents were you get a tubal or a vasectomy and tell the want-to-be-grandparents: "the doctor says I'm (or my spouse is) infertile but don't know what's causing it, but they say I won't ever be able to have kids, sorry I know you really wanted grandkids, but there is nothing that can be done...". And then they start pushing adoption ...

[Zoe Girl]

Not sure where the sterilization of your children comes in, after all if you have children then you chose that yourself. For me my children do not need to have children for my purposes. Maybe that is what you are talking about. The urge to have children is really powerful, even when taking away the social pressure that some people feel. And then birth control under the best of circumstances is not 100%. So that creates a lot of people really. What never really makes sense to me is how we have wars and famines and disasters that have huge loss of life, yet we keep increasing population all the time.

[catherine]

Wow. This will take at least the weekend to digest. I think there are many different approaches to this:

The Natural: Earth is in a constant state of growth, and by being born we are just doing what every other species on the planet does. Why should we be be any different?
The Metaphysical: We are all particles of the same energy bestowed on us by Divine Intelligence, and there's no way to opt out. The best we can do is to bring our awareness to that fact
The Pragmatic: As M. Scott Peck said in the first line of The Road Less Traveled, "Life is difficult." So what?
The Religious: We are all God's creatures, and denying God's gifts is a symptom of separation from God.
The Mystical: How could one deny just the joy of being alive?
The Existential: What difference does it make? It is what it is
The Fatalistic: We're all f--d.

I think his thesis is shocking, frankly, because it flies in the face of all those approaches, except for the last.

He clearly is looking through a prism I simply can't relate to. I may be biased by the fact that I have never been tortured or bullied or abused by my parents. I may also be biased by what I believe to be a genetic disposition to being happy. I do think we have brain chemistry that makes us more likely to thrive and adapt than others. But I would never make a blanket statement that no one should have children because we are inevitably forcing a terrible experience on them. I just don't think that's true. In fact, I know (in the effable and ineffable way of knowing) that's not true.

I've related my experience of finding out that I was pregnant with my 4th child when I was least prepared. I was overtaxed and emotionally spent with work and home life, we were constantly "in the crapper" financially, my husband was an active cocaine addict, and life just wasn't pretty. Even my mother told me to get an abortion. Any "reasonable" person would have. I had my pregnancy test in an abortion clinic, so my mind was acting "reasonably" at that moment. But something changed in my heart, and I chose to give birth.

I did the "selfish" act of having my daughter. From Day One she has ennobled my life and has provided joy to those around her. Her 4th grade teacher told me she was a "magical child." She has worked for hunger organizations, missions, and animal rights organizations. She has a wonderful sense of humor, she's bright, independent, and loving. I feel I would have been selfish if I had kept her from the world.

Life is difficult, no doubt, but as the Buddhists say, no mud, no lotus. If by chance we wind up in WWIII and my family and I are tortured, killed, maimed, and separated, I'll carry with me all the memories of my life that have carved joy into my being, and which nothing on this earth can take away.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine: thanks for sharing that story. It sounds like your DH overcame his addiction since you 2 are still married and seem to be happy. Life can be very hard at times. My 3 boys have decided not to have kids and I am fine with that. My 2 step-sons are much younger but want to have families some day. It is an individual choice and i would never try to influence them one way or another.

[Williamsmith]

Wow. This will take at least the weekend to digest. I think there are many different approaches to this:

The Natural: Earth is in a constant state of growth, and by being born we are just doing what every other species on the planet does. Why should we be be any different?
The Metaphysical: We are all particles of the same energy bestowed on us by Divine Intelligence, and there's no way to opt out. The best we can do is to bring our awareness to that fact
The Pragmatic: As M. Scott Peck said in the first line of The Road Less Traveled, "Life is difficult." So what?
The Religious: We are all God's creatures, and denying God's gifts is a symptom of separation from God.
The Mystical: How could one deny just the joy of being alive?
The Existential: What difference does it make? It is what it is
The Fatalistic: We're all f--d.

I think his thesis is shocking, frankly, because it flies in the face of all those approaches, except for the last.

He clearly is looking through a prism I simply can't relate to. I may be biased by the fact that I have never been tortured or bullied or abused by my parents. I may also be biased by what I believe to be a genetic disposition to being happy. I do think we have brain chemistry that makes us more likely to thrive and adapt than others. But I would never make a blanket statement that no one should have children because we are inevitably forcing a terrible experience on them. I just don't think that's true. In fact, I know (in the effable and ineffable way of knowing) that's not true.

I've related my experience of finding out that I was pregnant with my 4th child when I was least prepared. I was overtaxed and emotionally spent with work and home life, we were constantly "in the crapper" financially, my husband was an active cocaine addict, and life just wasn't pretty. Even my mother told me to get an abortion. Any "reasonable" person would have. I had my pregnancy test in an abortion clinic, so my mind was acting "reasonably" at that moment. But something changed in my heart, and I chose to give birth.

I did the "selfish" act of having my daughter. From Day One she has ennobled my life and has provided joy to those around her. Her 4th grade teacher told me she was a "magical child." She has worked for hunger organizations, missions, and animal rights organizations. She has a wonderful sense of humor, she's bright, independent, and loving. I feel I would have been selfish if I had kept her from the world.

Life is difficult, no doubt, but as the Buddhists say, no mud, no lotus. If by chance we wind up in WWIII and my family and I are tortured, killed, maimed, and separated, I'll carry with me all the memories of my life that have carved joy into my being, and which nothing on this earth can take away.

You ought to forward this to the good professor.....I think he needs a pep talk and a hug! Well said Catherine..well said.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The Natural: Earth is in a constant state of growth, and by being born we are just doing what every other species on the planet does. Why should we be be any different?

and very good at leading to the mass extinction of all other species ... because we are more destructive than any other species, that is why we are different?


The Pragmatic: As M. Scott Peck said in the first line of The Road Less Traveled, "Life is difficult." So what?

yea but in the meantime one doesn't have to choose to have kids, sometimes they do happen anyway. Just because life is difficult doesn't mean you have to deliberately inflict that difficulty.


The Fatalistic: We're all f--d.

yep, true personally of course, there is only the grave, but almost certainly true environmentally at this point as well.


He clearly is looking through a prism I simply can't relate to. I may be biased by the fact that I have never been tortured or bullied or abused by my parents. I may also be biased by what I believe to be a genetic disposition to being happy. I do think we have brain chemistry that makes us more likely to thrive and adapt than others. But I would never make a blanket statement that no one should have children because we are inevitably forcing a terrible experience on them.

then why is it not 100% rational for those who DO have a more depressive brain chemistry to choose not to reproduce? Seems to make plenty of sense to me.


I've related my experience of finding out that I was pregnant with my 4th child when I was least prepared. I was overtaxed and emotionally spent with work and home life, we were constantly "in the crapper" financially, my husband was an cocaine addict, and life just wasn't pretty. Even my mother told me to get an abortion. Any "reasonable" person would have. I had my pregnancy test in an abortion clinic, so my mind was acting "reasonably" at that moment. But something changed in my heart, and I chose to give birth.

and a lot of cases of bringing kids into financial turmoil and drug addiction etc. don't end up so well. A lot of people KNOW (and it's a very deep knowing) they are not in a good situation to bring kids into even when they might have had kids in a very different situation.


From Day One she has ennobled my life and has provided joy to those around her. Her 4th grade teacher told me she was a "magical child." She has worked for hunger organizations, missions, and animal rights organizations. She has a wonderful sense of humor, she's bright, independent, and loving. I feel I would have been selfish if I had kept her from the world.

so hope you have a magical child and if you have a sensitive vulnerable kid that is actually in some way effected by the adverse circumstances around them ... and deeply hurt in various ways by them ... then what, lament they weren't "magical"?


Life is difficult, no doubt, but as the Buddhists say, no mud, no lotus. If by chance we wind up in WWIII and my family and I are tortured, killed, maimed, and separated, I'll carry with me all the memories of my life that have carved joy into my being, and which nothing on this earth can take away.

many people who decided not to have kids feel they have been in so much pain by the time they reach 18 that ... That's why thinking it's negativity misses the mark by so many 1000s of miles it's a wonder it's even on the same planet, because it's not about conscious choices of negative or positive, it's about felt experience, the searing pain of so much we experienced when we were young ...

But that's childhood and adulthood isn't bad in the same ways? Well that's quite true actually, childhood is especially hellish due to the sheer powerlessness, and we often have decided whether to have kids or not by that point. Adulthood brings hard to believe difficulties of their own (it's unbelievable how harsh the world is) but not quite the pain without the ability to cope that childhood brings.

[catherine]

then why is it not 100% rational for those who DO have a more depressive brain chemistry to choose not to reproduce? Seems to make plenty of sense to me.


many people who decided not to have kids feel they have been in so much pain by the time they reach 18 that ... but that's childhood and adulthood isn't bad in the same ways, well that's quite true actually, childhood is especially hellish due to the sheer powerlessness, and we often have decided whether to have kids or not by that point.

The point is, he is absolute in his assertion that "people" should not have kids, while not knowing what their experience is going to be. He's predicting trauma and horror, and God knows there's a lot of that around. But that's not all there is. My point is, don't tell me what to do. His worldview is his own, your worldview, APN, is your own, and I have my own, too. I agree with you that the decision is absolutely personal.

ETA: And I hope I didn't sound like I was bragging about my daughter. That was not the point. The point was, if I had predetermined that her life was going to be crap, she wouldn't have been here to spread her goodness. And of course I would never "lament that she isn't magical." I have never lamented anything about any of my children. As Kahlil Gibran has advised, I've strived to be more like them, rather than strive to make them like me. I truly understand all the many reasons people may choose not to have children. All I was saying is, the professor in the article has no clue about my life.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If your experience is trauma and horror it's not entirely irrational to predict your kids might be (maybe even more so if they are actually your *biological* kids - at that point it's just epigenetics right? multi-generational epigenetic trauma ..). Sure everyone tries to be "different parents than there parents were and not repeat the same mistakes that they made" but I'm not sure it's always very successful.

[Williamsmith]

and very good at leading to the mass extinction of all other species ... because we are more destructive than any other species, that is why we are different?



yea but in the meantime one doesn't have to choose to have kids, sometimes they do happen anyway. Just because life is difficult doesn't mean you have to deliberately inflict that difficulty.



yep



then why is it not 100% rational for those who DO have a more depressive brain chemistry to choose not to reproduce? Seems to make plenty of sense to me.



and a lot of cases of bringing kids into financial turmoil and drug addiction etc. don't end up so well. A lot of people KNOW (and it's a very deep knowing) they are not in a good situation to bring kids into even when they might have had kids in a very different situation.



so hope you have a magical child and if you have a sensitive vulnerable kid that is actually in some way effected by the adverse circumstances around them ... and deeply hurt in various ways by them ... then what, lament they weren't "magical"?



many people who decided not to have kids feel they have been in so much pain by the time they reach 18 that ... That's why thinking it's negativity misses the mark by so many 1000s of miles it's a wonder it's even on the same planet, because it's not about conscious choices of negative or positive, it's about felt experience, the searing pain of so much we experienced when we were young ...

But that's childhood and adulthood isn't bad in the same ways? Well that's quite true actually, childhood is especially hellish due to the sheer powerlessness, and we often have decided whether to have kids or not by that point, adulthood brings hard to believe difficulties of their own but not quite the pain without the ability to cope that childhood brings.

I don’t think Catherine would try to negate any of the counterpoints you made. She’s just simply reporting that for her, the decision reaped positive benefits. But in some ways I think even if it had turned out different....Catherine would have been okay with it. So sayeth my crystal ball.

Given the argument of the relative merits between a miserable existence and none at all... I choose the prior with the knowledge that the later can always be derived from the prior but no existence predetermines its own lack of ones future. There is none or is there? Who says when a person is born....he/she is not reborn.

[catherine]

I don’t think Catherine would try to negate any of the counterpoints you made. She’s just simply reporting that for her, the decision reaped positive benefits. But in some ways I think even if it had turned out different....Catherine would have been okay with it. So sayeth my crystal ball.


You have a wise crystal ball :)