View Full Version : Say it Ain't So, Charlie Rose..........
I can't believe this. Every day a new one. I wonder if he'll be replaced on the CBS morning show? He wasn't there this morning.
I just don't get it. I wonder who it will be tomorrow?
He's been suspended from CBS and PBS has announced they will stop distribution of his show.
iris lilies
11-20-17, 7:19pm
Im not sure what you mean. This guy died? Was fired?
edited add, hmmmI see, I guess he groped women.
frugalone
11-20-17, 7:28pm
Oh for cryin' out loud...! Just how many of them are there??
I know: don't even ask.
catherine
11-20-17, 7:33pm
Oh for cryin' out loud...! Just how many of them are there??
I know: don't even ask.
If people are going back 40 years with complaints, and if they fired everyone who ever sexually harassed somebody else, the economy would collapse.
Chicken lady
11-20-17, 7:37pm
The economy will be fine. Women will be running the country.
If people are going back 40 years with complaints, and if they fired everyone who ever sexually harassed somebody else, the economy would collapse.
I disagree. Most people are decent. And no offender is indispensable. If need be we can import talent.
I'm sure that guy whose ass I grabbed forty years ago will speak up...:doh:
When I was in the first grade, the kid who sat behind me kissed me every time I turned around. I'm looking at you, David!
It will be interesting to see where we are when all the dust settles...
I disagree. Most people are decent. And no offender is indispensable. If need be we can import talent.
No immigrants! Haven't you been listening to Bannon, Trump, and Gorka? :devil:
No immigrants! Haven't you been listening to Bannon, Trump, and Gorka? :devil:
When Trump called Mexicans rapists it was probably psychological projection.
Chicken lady
11-20-17, 7:58pm
I slapped the s**t out of the guy who pinched my butt in high school. He hit the ground. I’ll agree not to charge him with assault if he agrees not to charge me.
i just asked dh if he wants to be ceo of his company and he rolled his eyes at me.
I'm sure that guy whose ass I grabbed forty years ago will speak up.
Statute of limitations. It's how Cosby has avoided jail. So you don't need to worry.
Ultralight
11-20-17, 8:09pm
I realize I risk being lynched but what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?"
I slapped the s**t out of the guy who pinched my butt in high school. He hit the ground. I’ll agree not to charge him with assault if he agrees not to charge me.
i just asked dh if he wants to be ceo of his company and he rolled his eyes at me.
Just the right response, Chicken Lady. I'm sure he didn't bother you further. My grabby co-worker didn't attempt a repeat performance. And we remained friendly. Simple solutions--if practical--are always best.
Chicken lady
11-20-17, 8:17pm
UL, Jane and I confessed. I don’t know about Jane, but I definitely hit him.
Realistically speaking, do you think this is just a phase and a fad that is being fed by the media? Or, do you think that things will change? If things change, it will be a huge shift in thinking.
I have hope - smoking has reduced, drunk driving has reduced so maybe sexual abuse will be less tolerated.
mamalatte
11-20-17, 9:49pm
Rose: “It is essential that these women know I hear them and that I deeply apologize for my inappropriate behavior. I am greatly embarrassed. I have behaved insensitively at times, and I accept responsibility for that, though I do not believe that all of these allegations are accurate. I always felt that I was pursuing shared feelings, even though I now realize I was mistaken."
Another poor "male bumbler," simply clueless, time after time, decade after decade, woman after woman.
As a partial answer to "whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?" a) the phrase applies in a criminal context and no one is being sent to jail; b) many of the actions being discussed are inappropriate but not necessarily crimes, so there will never be a day in court to "prove" the person guilty; c) even if they are crimes, the chances of something like this getting prosecuted are extremely slim; d) even if the alleged acts are not crimes, that doesn't mean an employer has to continue to associate itself with a person accused of such conduct, or that a voter wants to vote for him, etc.; e) some of the accused apparently are not "innocent" (have admitted the acts and/or stepped down/resigned voluntarily), others have not been found "guilty" but for now are merely suspended or similar while the allegations are investigated.
Williamsmith
11-20-17, 9:59pm
I’m beginning to think a series of sexual harassment trading cards might sell. The back of the Charlie Rose card could have his statistics and a caption something like, “Charlie always believed he was batting a thousand when really he was always striking out.” PBS most valuable player. CBS rookie of the year.
My son's Yu gi oh cards had lots of monsters, so there's precedent.
When Charlie Rose used to guest host the evening news I always changed the channel because he spoke so slowly it annoyed me. And he really thought he was Mr. Smooth?
goldensmom
11-21-17, 6:46am
In the late 70’s, while in the file room at work (tight aisles), a male co-worker brushed by me and his front parts touched my anterior side. Accident or intentional, I don’t know. Do I have a case? I am not making light of any inappropriate sexual encounter but I think anyone can be found guilty of something wrong or illegal if lives are micro inspected to the nth degree.
Ultralight
11-21-17, 7:09am
I heard a round table discussion on NPR of feminists. They said the straight white men in their social circles are asking them what the acceptable ways and places are to ask a woman out on a date.
Brushing by someone is a very different story than the women are reporting.
Some years ago, I went for a massage with a male massage therapist. I was lying nude facedown with my hands at my side. Towards the end of the massage, suddenly his genitals were rubbing against my left hand. I was startled and pulled my hands under my body. That was a deliberate act on his part. I never objected because to stand and yell when nude is rather awkward. I never went back and, strangely or not;), he didn't get too many return customers and the business folded. I could have complained to his licensing body but my life was hectic enough as it was and it would have been a "she said, he said" scenario. I told my DH about it.
People aren't reporting about accidental but deliberate acts of a sexual nature. When one cannot deal with the idea of such behaviour, denial of the reality or possibility is the result. How many little boys were abused but the reality of their experience was denied by those unable to deal with it. The deniers of even the possibility of deliberate inappropriate behaviour make the burden heavier for those who are trying to correct the situation.
In fact, it is no different with the response to "Silent Spring" by Rachel Carson regarding the harm of DDT. How much abuse did she undergo from the deniers?
Ultimately it is the mindset or awareness of the problem, whatever form it takes, that needs to change. I strongly support those with the courage to protest.
In the late 70’s, while in the file room at work (tight aisles), a male co-worker brushed by me and his front parts touched my anterior side. Accident or intentional, I don’t know. Do I have a case? I am not making light of any inappropriate sexual encounter but I think anyone can be found guilty of something wrong or illegal if lives are micro inspected to the nth degree.
I slapped the s**t out of the guy who pinched my butt in high school. He hit the ground. I’ll agree not to charge him with assault if he agrees not to charge me.
e.
I am glad it went that way. It mostly escalated when i did similar things, and the 'male bumbler' was the supervisor i asked to make it stop. I either took care of myself or put up with it, and truly didn't have a lot of power. I don't even want to tell some things here in a private forum because of the shit people say,
I highly doubt the world will fall apart if sexual harassment and assault are addressed and people held accountable, but it interesting because every other crime i can think of we assume things will get BETTER if we address it. Do we say that about robbery or other physical assault? No way, but women are the vast majority of victims here and so of course we don't mind a grope for the good of the economy
Ultralight
11-21-17, 7:51am
When I was in 7th grade my art teacher's hand "brushed up against" my genitals...with a bit of a squeeze. Was it an accident? Was it on purpose? At the time I thought: "I think that was on purpose..."
Though each time I reflected on it for the first several months afterward I thought: "Maybe it was just an accident."
When I was in 7th grade my art teacher's hand "brushed up against" my genitals...with a bit of a squeeze. Was it an accident? Was it on purpose? At the time I thought: "I think that was on purpose..."
Though each time I reflected on it for the first several months afterward I thought: "Maybe it was just an accident."
I am really sorry that happened to you.
In light of the kinds of things Charlie Rose is said to have done, his apology goes way beyond "bumbler" to laughable.
I realize I risk being lynched but what ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?"
The standard of evidence for trial by media is lower than that for trial by jury.
Rose: “It is essential that these women know I hear them and that I deeply apologize for my inappropriate behavior. I am greatly embarrassed. I have behaved insensitively at times, and I accept responsibility for that, though I do not believe that all of these allegations are accurate. I always felt that I was pursuing shared feelings, even though I now realize I was mistaken."
Another poor "male bumbler," simply clueless, time after time, decade after decade, woman after woman.
As a partial answer to "whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?" a) the phrase applies in a criminal context and no one is being sent to jail; b) many of the actions being discussed are inappropriate but not necessarily crimes, so there will never be a day in court to "prove" the person guilty; c) even if they are crimes, the chances of something like this getting prosecuted are extremely slim; d) even if the alleged acts are not crimes, that doesn't mean an employer has to continue to associate itself with a person accused of such conduct, or that a voter wants to vote for him, etc.; e) some of the accused apparently are not "innocent" (have admitted the acts and/or stepped down/resigned voluntarily), others have not been found "guilty" but for now are merely suspended or similar while the allegations are investigated.
+1
Chicken lady
11-21-17, 8:51am
I have never been in a situation where I was uncomfortable because of a power dynamic. The closest I have come is dh boss once flirting with me a little at a party and standing a little too close. The flirting was the sort of thing I would have been ok with from say, a friend’s grandfather, and when backing off didn’t work, I solved the “a little too close” by “losing my balance” as someone walked by and “accidentally” planting my heel on his foot and splashing my wine. Then I apologized profusely, drawing lots of attention.
i also once worked with a maintenance guy who made me uncomfortable, but again it was more “don’t stand so close, don’t smile at me like that, your jokes aren’t funny (but are also ambiguous enough that I can’t actually object to you telling them even though there are kids around), and no, you go ahead up the stairs first...” I was in a position to get him at least reprimanded and possibly fired (I have a really sensitive, responsive boss) However, he really needed the job, and talking to coworkers, no one else got the same vibe. So I just avoided him. I think he might have been interested and socially clueless. After two years he had a work history and left for a better low skill job in construction.
Williamsmith
11-21-17, 9:06am
I would challenge everyone to attempt to understand the situation in a deeper context by putting yourself in the shoes of...the complainant, the accused, and the administrator tasked with investigating these incidents.
If you truly do this you will perceive what a complex thing it is to fairly decide what specifically happened and whether it meets the definition of sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior, miscommunication, a crime or a false allegation. They are separate findings. In fact, they may be defined as substantiated or unsubstantiated which are not the same as “true or false”. A determination needs to be born out by reliable evidence which is going to necessarily require an analysis of the degree of credibility of victim, accused and witnesses if there are any.
This is all critically important because there is so much at stake. While the allegations may not ever have a chance to rise to the level of criminal behavior.....the consequences for the accused are job loss, discipline, stress, financial ruin and interpersonal relationship disasters as well as mental health issues.
The determination must not be left up to superficial subjective analysis. It should strictly adhere to guidelines established by an objective fact finding process applied to rules established to make a determination. The rules allow for determinations that are flexible enough to avoid “true...false”.
There is a lot that can be expanded on here but conducting such an investigation is like trying to see the bottom of a mug full of coffee. You got to drink the coffee first.
catherine
11-21-17, 9:14am
I would challenge everyone to attempt to understand the situation in a deeper context by putting yourself in the shoes of...the complainant, the accused, and the administrator tasked with investigating these incidents.
If you truly do this you will perceive what a complex thing it is to fairly decide what specifically happened and whether it meets the definition of sexual harassment, inappropriate behavior, miscommunication, a crime or a false allegation. They are separate findings. In fact, they may be defined as substantiated or unsubstantiated which are not the same as “true or false”. A determination needs to be born out by reliable evidence which is going to necessarily require an analysis of the degree of credibility of victim, accused and witnesses if there are any.
That's why I said if everyone was fired for sexual harassment the economy would collapse. I was thinking of the very, very broad interpretation. Was it sexual harassment when my bosses at NBC made veiled "invitations" to me when we were on the road for six weeks working on the 76 Republican Convention? Was it sexual harassment when I awoke in the middle of the night and found a female college upperclassman sitting on my bed with her hand on my arm? Was it sexual harassment when the superintendent of schools hugged and kissed me on the cheek after a successful conference I had arranged?
I am not in any way minimizing true sexual harassment, but I think Williamsmith's points are very valid.
ApatheticNoMore
11-21-17, 11:53am
The training on sexual harassment try to make it clear (it's really not some "how will we ever know? how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" discussion). That's what it is only in the (frankly I suspect deliberately deluded by propagandists) popular mind.
I'm not making a claim for perfect justice being done in the courts or anything like that, plenty of injustice can be done when rubber actually hits road, I'm just saying it's not up to our random speculations, as laws exist on this. And I am kind of grateful we have laws that are much more clear than the popular mind on this (for once in my life: 3 cheers for lawyers).
In cases like Charlie Rose though you have 8 women accusers or something like that and he confesses even though it didn't even benefit him career wise any to confess. A lot of these people are admitting their wrong doing, so unless one argues they are confessing even though they didn't do anything, which seems really far fetched ...
Teacher Terry
11-21-17, 12:22pm
They are admitting it in the hope that it will go away faster. Back when I was 19 I was taking a shuttle bus to the airport and it was full of people. I was 8 months pregnant and my chest was large. The guy next to me was smoking and the ashtray was by me. When he used it he slid his hand/arm across my chest and I thought it was an accident. by the 3rd time I told him if he did it again I would put that cigarette somewhere he would not like. That was the end of it.
Williamsmith
11-21-17, 12:41pm
What if Charlie finds eight women, not the complainants, who experienced similar incidents with Charlie but did not find they were at the level of sexual harassment. Or perhaps one, when interviewed reports she was present during one of the incidents and didn’t recall the details to be as offensive as the complainant. Or perhaps, one of the eight recents her accusations. Do you recall the photograph....American Girl in Italy?
Teacher Terry
11-21-17, 12:48pm
I agree WS that people are not guilty just because they are accused. Some people may be trying to get their 15 minutes of fame.
Teacher Terry
11-21-17, 12:53pm
On the reverse side I was climbing the Tower of Pisa in Italy and it is a long curving stairway that is very small. I am going up and this guy is going down and we are both in our 50's I would guess. Neither of us are skinny. I know we will need to pass which won't be pretty. So I find a corner to fit in and tell him to try it. We end up brushing against each other and he is embarrassed and says he is sorry so I make a joke and he starts laughing.
WilliamSmith.....You always have such a great way of expressing yourself. I agree with you.
This is all so hard to sort through. I have been in a number of situations when I was younger, where bad things could have happened, but I'm lucky they didn't. I was too trusting......having learned from my father that I had to always obey. I even went out with guys I didn't even like, because I thought I had to, since they asked. Is that crazy or what? I think a lot of women were raised just to do what men told them to do and not question it.
But there was this guy in music school with me. I was practicing and he came in and was sitting down playing the piano with me, and kissed me. WTF? He'd never even hinted at being interested in me. Yuk.
But.....when you're young, (and also been raised to never speak out), you just let it slide. You don't know HOW to feel about it. Well, 50 years later if it was brought up that he sexually assaulted a number of women.......would I come forward and make it sound worse, or even just add to the total number of women who came forward?
Also......I was in group therapy when I was about 19. The leader was a doctor. I was having a really hard time one night, after my boyfriend left me and I called him for help and he had me come to his office. He sat next to me and put his arm around me........which seemed compassionate. But then he kissed me on the lips. YUK. What a horrible position to be in. He was "helping" me........yet this seemed wrong to me, but I felt too confused about it to say anything. I also heard that one of the young women in his "sensitivity group" was living with he and his wife. I guess he was "helping" her too?? So over the years I kept my ears open as to if anything surfaced. But if it did.........would that incident with him kissing me been considered some sort of sexual assault?
This type of thing is soooooo complicated. How does one even assess every complaint? How many witnesses? How do they even figure out the truth of any of it?
I also think that our culture has brought us to this point. Many people raise their girls to be attractive, flirtatious, etc..........which no doubt could be misinterpreted by men later. Also.......there's the alcohol/drug problem which clouds the issues of whether things were consensual or not. What a mess to figure out.
mamalatte
11-21-17, 3:48pm
I think there are 2 different questions in play:
1. Have we reached a time when "society" or our "culture" is willing to say that certain types of behavior toward women that were previously condoned or ignored are no longer okay or acceptable, especially in the context of the workplace or situations of disparate power?
2. How do we investigate or prove whether such behaviors occurred and what consequences should there be (williamsmith's point)?
Just because #2 is hard doesn't mean we should give up on #1. The discussion is important, and changing societal/cultural views has a huge impact on people's day-to-day behavior. Statistically, most people are not going to be involved in a lawsuit over their behavior, but most people will be exposed to societal messages about what is and what is not okay.
For example, marital rape (once an oxymoron and a legal impossibility) and date rape remain extremely difficult to investigate and prove, but the fact that society (and in this case, the law) no longer condones either in the abstract is still incredibly important and serves to guide behavior.
I think there are 2 different questions in play:
1. Have we reached a time when "society" or our "culture" is willing to say that certain types of behavior toward women that were previously condoned or ignored are no longer okay or acceptable, especially in the context of the workplace or situations of disparate power?
2. How do we investigate or prove whether such behaviors occurred and what consequences should there be (williamsmith's point)?
Just because #2 is hard doesn't mean we should give up on #1. The discussion is important, and changing societal/cultural views has a huge impact on people's day-to-day behavior. Statistically, most people are not going to be involved in a lawsuit over their behavior, but most people will be exposed to societal messages about what is and what is not okay.
For example, marital rape (once an oxymoron and a legal impossibility) and date rape remain extremely difficult to investigate and prove, but the fact that society (and in this case, the law) no longer condones either in the abstract is still incredibly important and serves to guide behavior.
+1
very well stated
I heard a round table discussion on NPR of feminists. They said the straight white men in their social circles are asking them what the acceptable ways and places are to ask a woman out on a date.
Any idiot can figure this out. You ask her verbally if she would like to go to dinner or whatever. You don't grope her or stick your tongue in her mouth, try to remove her clothing, or expose yourself and start masturbating, especially not at work. And don't try to date anyone underage. If you're an assistant DA follow the laws on statutory rape. This isn't rocket science.
JaneV2.0
11-22-17, 10:47am
Any idiot can figure this out. You ask her verbally if she would like to go to dinner or whatever. You don't grope her or stick your tongue in her mouth, try to remove her clothing, or expose yourself and start masturbating, especially not at work. And don't try to date anyone underage. If you're an assistant DA follow the laws on statutory rape. This isn't rocket science.
I guess playing dumb gives you plausible deniability.
On the other hand, when you're banned from the local mall for being a creeper...
Did you hear what Sarah Huckabee said at a news conference? Trump's sexual misconduct in the past was brought up, when Franken's was the topic. She said "Senator Franken has admitted wrongdoing, and the president hasn't. I think that's a very clear distinction." Yeah......and that speaks to Trump's twisted reality and constant lying. What a disgusting human being he is........
How absurd a statement that was of her's.
And Roy Moore hasn't admitted to wrongdoing, says Trump, so he's clearly innocent. Birds of a feather.
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