View Full Version : Another school shooting, multiple fatalities
flowerseverywhere
2-14-18, 5:14pm
horrific, frightening and senseless. We seem paralyzed as a country to do anything about it.
My heart breaks for the useless lost and shattered lives.
I'm sick to my stomach..........and angry and ashamed that this country can't seem to do anything about it.
horrific, frightening and senseless. We seem paralyzed as a country to do anything about it.
But we are doing something about it. Thoughts and prayers, baby. Thoughts and prayers.
/snark
flowerseverywhere
2-15-18, 2:19am
But we are doing something about it. Thoughts and prayers, baby. Thoughts and prayers.
/snark
after Gabby Gifford (six people died and five were wounded) and Steve Scalise were shot I would have thought that was close enough to Home.
Again we sit on our hands and wait until the next tweet or scandal distracts us.
In a five year period two Kennedys, King and Malcolm X were all assassinated. If the murder of a president doesn't spark changes other than better Secret Service protection the attacks on Gifford and Scalise won't.
dado potato
2-15-18, 8:50am
Modest "common sense" policies that would seek to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous, high-risk people are opposed by the corporate gun lobby and Second Amendment devotees. However, the Constitution can be amended... and there is a procedure to repeal any existing amendment.
I was already fed-up with gun violence in April 1999 when the shootings occurred at Columbine. There have been 25 fatal active school shootings in the United States since then.
And, as flowerseverywhere reminded us, gun violence has directly targeted lawmakers ... and "we" sit on our hands.
In the state of Wisconsin, and most likely in every state, there is a 501(c)(3) organization working to counteract the corporate gun lobby, educate the public about gun violence, and lobby for life-saving changes to gun laws. These organizations can be looked up on Bing, Google, etc. by typing Your State + anti + gun + violence.
"We" who do not wish to sit on our hands can get involved and go to work.
I think people who talk about Gun Lobbies and 2nd Amendment devotees are showing their privilege. To address the problem of deadly violence by restricting the means of effective self defense by those living in violent circumstances seems counter-intuitive. Perhaps a deeper dive into the culture of violence would be a better place to start.
Perhaps a deeper dive into the culture of violence would be a better place to start.
As much as I believe in more laws around access to assault weapons, I think Alan has a good point.
Williamsmith
2-15-18, 9:48am
Don’t look for answers to come from the televised media. They are too busy monetizing the sensationalism of mass shooting deaths. Don’t look for answers to come from the political oligarchy. They are busy pushing legislation that benefits their donors.
The raw figures are available. Teen suicide is a much larger problem but it doesn’t sell advertising or anything else for that matter. Of all teen homicides, figures I’ve seen show that mass murder accounts for only about 2%.
The answer is in where our priorities are as evidenced by our federal budget. Trump wants to allocate somewhere around 700 billion for the military and defense spending. If you look at the discretionary spending funds they amount to a little over a trillion dollars. Almost 60% is spent on the military and they still don’t take care of soldiers after they come home.
There isnt a magic law that will end all mass shootings. There are some specific things you can do Security wise to lessen the chances. TSA.....was an application of this. You can screen every kid and adult that enters a school zone. But guess what, you have to take some of that military budget and hand it over to education. You can increase mental health care opportunities but guess what....that military budget needs to slide a slice of the pie to health and welfare.
Don’t listen to the lies both sides have developed about gun issues. The US is not the only developed country where this happens. It just happens to be one of the ones that does little to respond to it. No gun restrictions can do anything about the firearms we already have in circulation. The trouble is we are much better at teaching violence than we are at teaching respect.
If you want to join the bandwagon of gun bashing, go ahead it feels good especially after the day of an incident like this. But it does nothing to reduce the responsibility all of us bear for having a purposeful societal focus on stockpiling weapon systems, funding a bloated military and spreading turmoil worldwide at the expense of our own children’s future.
We can mitigate these incidents. We just have to get our money and our efforts headed in the right direction.
As far as the repeal of the second amendment....it’s not about hunting, or self defense....it’s about revolution. It’s the constitutional equivalent to the nuclear option. You’d have to repeal the Declaration of Independence and replace liberty with tyranny.
iris lilies
2-15-18, 9:56am
We can turn this into self loathing if you all want, but I am angry at the assholes, and their sheer audacity, who think they are so important they can take the lives of others with no provocation on the part of victims.Talk about entitled mentality, that is it.
And why is ours the only civilized country in which this kind of thing happens? We're a gold-plated Somalia. And as long as someone at the top of the pile is making money, nobody in power cares. I've grown weary of being disgusted with the turn this country is taking.
we are much better at teaching violence than we are at teaching respect.
Over the past few decades, I think there has been a real lack of teaching/modeling empathy whether by parental example or in school programs. It doesn't help that our culture emphasizes individual success over everything else. I keep wondering why there are so many lost young males especially since the recession. One of the reasons I wanted to volunteer at an elementary school was to see just how we are teaching young children. I was impressed that the kindergarten teacher stresses how the "other" feels in different situations. When DD was in public school, it was all about self-esteem.
Williamsmith
2-15-18, 10:57am
Over the past few decades, I think there has been a real lack of teaching/modeling empathy whether by parental example or in school programs. It doesn't help that our culture emphasizes individual success over everything else. I keep wondering why there are so many lost young males especially since the recession. One of the reasons I wanted to volunteer at an elementary school was to see just how we are teaching young children. I was impressed that the kindergarten teacher stresses how the "other" feels in different situations. When DD was in public school, it was all about self-esteem.
My wife is an aide in an emotional support classroom. I am aghast at the stories she recounts about the violence elementary school age troubled kids are displaying. I am not surprised some of them gain access to firearms and use them. We have a serious problem with responsible firearms ownership, phobia on the one side and infatuation with gun violence on the other. It really is no different than the failed war on drugs. We are proposing the same solutions. Get tough, make new laws and spend more on incarceration for gun offenses. It troubles me that we didn’t learn anything from our making felons out of our neighbors.
I read a book recently about Danish parenting and it is a 180 from how we raise our kids. For the most part, they don't tolerate a violent populace.
Simplemind
2-15-18, 1:24pm
I volunteer with a trauma intervention program. In the last couple of years we have seen an alarming increase in teen suicides. There is a great deal of despair and anxiety amongst our youth. I only work one shift a week but it is rare that I don't have at least one suicide per shift, I often have two. Something is very very wrong.
TVRodriguez
2-15-18, 1:52pm
I live not far from where yesterday's shooting happened. Someone at a work lunch today said that this shooting is the fault of "the libtards in Broward County" and that "proper school security" is the answer.
You have got to be kidding me.
This kid who killed his classmates yesterday was in middle school when Sandy Hook happened. If proper gun control had been put into place then, he would not have had the opportunity to buy the gun he used to kill. Could he have snapped and killed? Of course he could have. Would it have been as bad? Less likely. But I suppose those who read the 2nd Amendment without any reference to the "well-regulated militia" do not care about the possibility of lessening the number of dead. After all, if someone wants to kill, they say, that person will find a way to kill. Sure. But why make it so easy for them?
And the "originalists" who believe in following the letter of the Constitution as if we were still in the 18th century who forget that there were no weapons such as these in those times--how convenient of them. Their prayers are noted.
As for those who say it requires an examination of where we are as a culture--okay, fine, let's do that, too. Why is that mutually exclusive with limiting the access to and sheer number of firearms?
I was following a FB thread where someone posted that a good solution to this current crisis is to arm all teachers. What??? Never mind that most teachers will never have the full training required to actually use a gun without killing the wrong people, it makes me wonder why the solution is to up the ante with regard to accepting that we have to assume violence in our everyday lives by making guns mandatory for public servants in schools. To me, that says the violence wins.
I was following a FB thread where someone posted that a good solution to this current crisis is to arm all teachers. What??? Never mind that most teachers will never have the full training required to actually use a gun without killing the wrong people, it makes me wonder why the solution is to up the ante with regard to accepting that we have to assume violence in our everyday lives by making guns mandatory for public servants in schools. To me, that says the violence wins.The answer isn't to arm all teachers, it's to de-criminalize the arming of trained, proficient teachers. Most of these events take place in gun-free zones for a reason.
TVRodriguez
2-15-18, 2:33pm
The answer isn't to arm all teachers, it's to de-criminalize the arming of trained, proficient teachers. Most of these events take place in gun-free zones for a reason.
Most of these events take place with guns for a reason.
Most of these events take place with guns for a reason.
Yes, because they're efficient. In other parts of the world where guns are criminalized, knives and vehicles are more efficient but with the same result, especially in self-defense free zones.
TVRodriguez
2-15-18, 2:53pm
Yes, because they're efficient. In other parts of the world where guns are criminalized, knives and vehicles are more efficient but with the same result, especially in self-defense free zones.
Yes, guns are most efficient and effective at killing. I agree with you; that is a fact.
Most knives and vehicles have other uses.
What is a "self-defense free zone"?
In other parts of the developed/Western/wealthy world comparable to the United States, there are many fewer deaths by guns, both homicide and suicide.
Williamsmith
2-15-18, 3:24pm
If we are going to rehash the lies that each one of us think are facts, we ought to at least cite references to sources so that we can chose who to believe.
According to the National Air Traffic Controllers Assn. There are 87,000 flights daily. Why do we talk about arming teachers? Let teachers, teach. Did we simply arm pilots and stewardesses after 9-11? We only speak of arming teachers because we refuse to invest the kind of money needed to secure our schools. It’s obvious it can be done.
Sadly, the few children murdered yearly, speaking in relative terms ..... are apparently not worth the investment.
Why do we speak of making new laws which criminals and mentally deranged ignore? Because it makes us look compassionate, miserly but compassionate.
Did someone suggest a way to keep the already existing millions of firearms out of the hands of criminals and mentally deficient? I missed it.
Let’s have a parade and show off our weapons?
TVRodriguez
2-15-18, 3:27pm
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/07/world/americas/mass-shootings-us-international.html
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s? I don’t remember hearing about school shootings then. And we use to keep guns in our vehicles during hunting season. It would have been strange to not visit someone’s home that didn’t have a firearm of some sort. And yet the teenagers were not shooting up the school when they got upset.
goldensmom
2-16-18, 7:48am
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s? I don’t remember hearing about school shootings then. And we use to keep guns in our vehicles during hunting season. It would have been strange to not visit someone’s home that didn’t have a firearm of some sort. And yet the teenagers were not shooting up the school when they got upset.
You have just described my growing up years. Our school also had a gun club and a shooting range in basement of the school building. I read somewhere that children have not changed, society has changed; guns have not changed, society has changed. Simpler days? I don't think so, things were pretty hard in the 50's, 60's and 70's and maybe life needs to become hard again. Wish I knew the answer but I think societal issues have become so convoluted there is not one answer and there may not be an answer. The roots to the current problems in our country go way deeper than guns and mental health issues.
I agree that the problems of the U.S. go deeper than one thing..........but having the most guns of any other country in the world just makes matters worse.
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s? I don’t remember hearing about school shootings then. And we use to keep guns in our vehicles during hunting season. It would have been strange to not visit someone’s home that didn’t have a firearm of some sort. And yet the teenagers were not shooting up the school when they got upset.
In the 70s/80s, I was allowed to have firearms on-campus. I had to check them in at the armory, and check them out when I wanted to go use them. I was allowed to use them on school grounds. I was not allowed to keep them in my dorm room, except temporarily. We even used firearms in the classroom - the “ballistic pendulum” experiment in Physics class was quite impressive.
We need to get big money out of politics--campaign finance reform. That's the only thing that will put a stop to the spectacle of representatives as wholly-owned minions of the Koch brothers, the NRA, big Pharma...the list goes on. We have to reclaim our government.
Also, doesn't the military require that new recruits take a course in weapons management and pass a test before they're allowed to carry a firearm? Why isn't that a requirement for civilians, similar to automobile licensing? It's worth noting that one of the first things Trump did as president was reverse President Obama's regulation restricting the mentally ill from owning firearms...
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s?
Just about everything. What a hell on earth we are creating...
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s? I don’t remember hearing about school shootings then. And we use to keep guns in our vehicles during hunting season. It would have been strange to not visit someone’s home that didn’t have a firearm of some sort. And yet the teenagers were not shooting up the school when they got upset.
My understanding was that the general trend in gun violence has been down over the last few decades, despite there being significantly more of them in circulation than in the past. The decline in garden-variety homicides having more than offset high-profile mass shootings. Just one of many examples of how our perception of various risks doesn't align with reality.
The military required me to "qualify" on the M-16 and a 9mm handgun back in the 80s. The lessons I took from that experience were that shooting sports are the ultimate in tedium and that (at least for me) carrying a firearm would be more deleterious than enhancing to my personal safety. So Jane may have a point.
There's a report of shots fired and a lockdown at Highline Community College south of here. Hope it's nothing.
Update: it's apparently nothing.
How many black and hispanic kids have died from shootings in Detroit, Baltimore, St. Louis, Chicago, et. al. since the beginning of the year?
Where is the prepackaged outrage and spiffy news stories about these young peoples’ deaths?
I know, they aren’t photogenic white kids, but still...
dado potato
2-16-18, 2:33pm
bae,
I believe local media in the cities you mention do the job of telling the story of gun violence, although they may not always mention the race of the victim.
For example the Chicago Tribune maintains "Young Victims", without detailing the race of victims.
Thus far in 2018 in Chicago there were 22 shooting victims 16 years old or younger. One of these shootings resulted in homicide.
In the full year 2017 there were 246 young shooting victims in the same age group. 38 homicides resulted.
Perhaps you are being sarcastic when you ask where is the "prepackaged" outrage and "spiffy" news stories. However, if you seek news stories on the pain and loss of life, or op-ed pieces filled with outrage, I sincerely believe you will find many of those in local media. In "Young Victims" you can hover your mouse over each dot to see the news story.
http://apps.chicagotribune.com/news/local/young_victims/
Part of it is surely the "shooting fish in a barrel" aspect of it.
I agree that carnage of any kind is unforgivable--especially when committed by those sworn to "protect and serve."
Williamsmith
2-16-18, 4:32pm
Here’s why I believe, this time it is different. The FBI screwed up. Is it because they were preoccupied assigning assets to the “russian meddling” nonsense? Or are they just that incompetent? In any event, it’s obvious law enforcement has lost much credibility over this new senseless tragedy which we find out could have been prevented. The FBI Director might be looking for a new job soon.
Also, there is a genuine sense of being just plain worn down by the defenders of the literal second amendment without restrictions based on the ability to resist tyranny through armed insurrection. That’s the only argument that insists on ownership of firearms without restriction, otherwise the SC has ruled reasonable restrictions apply.
I believe that a country that once banned semiauto AR15 type firearms can embrace it again in the face of the carnage. It doesn’t matter whether we can reasonably expect it to reduce the frequency or number of deaths in mass shootings or not. It might simply be the cost of buying our forgiveness for a symbolic public transgression. The time is right again. It feels like it to me.
Did you know that the NRA is fractured? There is a rush of members leaving for the GOA. Those that remain are sympathetic to further restrictions, bumpstock bans and broad expansion of prohibiting factors to ownership known as the fix NICS bill. A bill which will authorize domestic sweeping of all social media and internet presence and digestion of factors to add names to the denied purchase list.
In fact, the history of the NRA contrary to popular reporting is that the NRA was responsible for many of the restrictive gun control laws that have been enacted. The leadership of the NRA, board of directors is struggling to keep the moderates in place and fighting against the election of hardliners.
I wouldn’t be surprised if one of the parents of the newly murdered children doesn’t become a force to be reckoned with. That force is growing with each new mass shooting incident.
I would like to hear what the FBI has to say about what they did with the information. Don't you think that it's a thin line.........how far to go containing someone who hasn't acted out any of the potentially bad things they've said online or to "friends"?
I'm thinking that individuals have so many rights that no one (including the FBI) can proceed against them without a law suit, etc. I know some of you will say losing some freedoms isn't worth it, and we just have to let people alone......until they do something "illegal"/deadly.
I know I'm not saying this very well. I just think many of us would be willing to give up a little freedom, in order to stop some of these things from happening. I honestly think it's insane to continue without doing something about it.
iris lilies
2-16-18, 7:22pm
I would like to hear what the FBI has to say about what they did with the information. Don't you think that it's a thin line.........how far to go containing someone who hasn't acted out any of the potentially bad things they've said online or to "friends"?
I'm thinking that individuals have so many rights that no one (including the FBI) can proceed against them without a law suit, etc. I know some of you will say losing some freedoms isn't worth it, and we just have to let people alone......until they do something "illegal"/deadly.
I know I'm not saying this very well. I just think many of us would be willing to give up a little freedom, in order to stop some of these things from happening. I honestly think it's insane to continue without doing something about it.
What, specifically, do you incarcerate people for when they have harmed no one?
iris lilies
2-16-18, 7:26pm
Sure WS, the tide may have turned about certain legalities becoming illegal, but in my ‘hood it really does not matter what the law says about who may own which firearms. So these guys who already operate illegally will just jam up the courts more when/if they are caught. They are back out on the streets pretty soon.
Are ya’ll willing to lock up more young black men for longer periods since that is the demographic flaunting existing gun laws?
Skinny, nerdy, white shooters in suburbia are pretty uncommon.
What, specifically, do you incarcerate people for when they have harmed no one?
That's what I'm saying........that if we want to catch some of these mass shooters ahead of time, we have to allow the law to bring them in and investigate them, their comments, their guns, etc.....and find them a threat to society.
Actually the Texas church shooter was not supposed to own guns because of domestic abuse charges. The system did not communicate that very well and he had quite an arsenal. From some of what I heard people on the inside of these systems say that being short staffed and underfunded is a big factor in getting the arrest records to the proper people so that restrictions can be enforced.
Williamsmith
2-16-18, 8:11pm
Sure Ws, the tide may have turned about certain legalities becoming illegal, but in. Y ‘Hood it really does nt matter what the law says about who may own which firearms. So these guys who already operate illegally will just jam up,the courts more when/if they are caught. They are back out onnthe streets pretty soon.
Are ya’ll willing to lock up more young black men for longer periods since that is the demographic flaunting existing gun laws?
Skinny, nerdy, white shooters in suburbia are pretty uncommon.
Absolutely spot on. That’s why all the young black men have been kept in the “hood”.....nobody gives a sh!t about their lives. The mass shooters......they are mowing down the cream of our crop. And another reason why something will get done.
Our government can drop a warhead on the head of a pin that is sitting in a hut in Afghanistan but they can’t identify a 19 year old in a Youtube video threatening to kill kids with guns. I know better.
I thought this brought up some good points:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/opinions/democrats-spare-me-your-hypocrisy-on-shooting-cupp/index.html
The alternative to jailing people for talking about shooting people, is to get them court ordered mental health treatment for verbal threats of danger to others. We do it all the time in PHX. There’s 241 beds in my department for such situations.
There are answers. It’s not “lock them for thought crimes” versus “freedom for dangerous people”.
mschrisgo2
2-16-18, 11:05pm
I heard a horrifying yet logical statement today, regarding what happened to go from shotguns hanging in all the pickups parked on high school campuses and nobody shooting up schools, to where we are today... The statement was, "The military draft was abolished. Young men need training on weapons and on learning to live within the confines of society."
Wow. I never would have thought of it, and haven't heard or read anyone else say it, but then, I'm not a guy who was drafted and trained and sent to Viet Nam.
And the more I think about it, there probably is a huge truth there.
Williamsmith
2-16-18, 11:57pm
We have lacked an honest dialog. Oh we’ve had a dialog, but it’s been biased, misleading, down right disrespectful to both sides of the issue. Because neither side wants to commit to a game plan for fear of losing their senate seat, house affiliation, future lobbying position, special interest group A++ rating.
We could creep toward improving the situation based on our unique situation in this country. Please, quit comparing this country to others. We are who we are in large part because of the freedoms we enshrine in our constitution. That includes our tolerance for irresponsible gun ownership and evil gun culture even though we don’t have to shrug our shoulders and have our children cower under an overturned table instead of gaining an education.
Even though some specific guns are a part of the problem, that doesn’t rule out the effectiveness properly used guns would have to combat the problem. Is there any reason why schools can’t be hardened a little by an investment in security as part of a solution? Could we not do without the unrestrained access to guns that make some people feel like a soldier going to war? Can’t we find money to help address the mental health crisis we have in this country? Could we become a more peaceful nation as a whole by reeling in our worldwide war effort?
The blood is really starting to become hard to clean up. I’m really surprised there hasn’t been a 60s and 70s style march on Washington DC or even rioting in dissent over the lack of leadership thus far. That goes back several Presidents by the way.
You know how I’m convinced this is a turning point? Because I’m about as run of the mill average Joe as you can get, I own plenty of firearms, I use them for hunting and self defense. I carried several of them in defense of rule of law for most of my lifetime......and frankly....they don’t give me pleasure anymore, they don’t make me feel secure, and considering having to use one of them makes me sick. I know what a projectile can do to a human body. I’d rather carry a camera these days.
We are capable of providing solutions. We must make our representatives apply them and mitigate the violence just a little. Our kids and grandkids deserve it.
The alternative to jailing people for talking about shooting people, is to get them court ordered mental health treatment for verbal threats of danger to others. We do it all the time in PHX. There’s 241 beds in my department for such situations.
Must be nice! In my state, some nights there are *no* available beds for people in crisis, and it’s a real pain to keep them sedated in the back of the ambulance for a few days.
ToomuchStuff
2-17-18, 3:26am
What has changed since the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s? I don’t remember hearing about school shootings then. And we use to keep guns in our vehicles during hunting season. It would have been strange to not visit someone’s home that didn’t have a firearm of some sort. And yet the teenagers were not shooting up the school when they got upset.
My parents generation had rifles and such in vehicles, at least during hunting season. They also made some firearms parts in machine class, and some other stuff. Then a local high school was also the ROTC school. I don't know when that changed as when I was a kid, we moved in response to KC's busing students around and reports of weapon's in schools.
The ironic part, where we moved to, pocket knives most guys carried (especially if you were involved in scouting), shurikens were carried (and only used for target practice), nun-chucks, etc. In my high school, I had a pistol to the stomach and a knife to my throat, and then they spread the rumor that I was going to blow up the school. (actually had my closest relative apologize to me for telling me to stay in school when half the class stood up and said "he's got a gun")
I didn't have access to real ones. I could have bought any from a toy store (around the time they started putting orange on the tip), and had access to one full size replica, from a friend who was four years older (most of my friends had graduated before my freshman year).
As I have said, I was abducted as a kid, and when I got older, I was told to think of one relative in relation to the worst person I knew (by someone who didn't know who that was). Their reason was to teach me how to kill or injure severely in case of what they feared would happen. I was also told, that that, was a last resort, because I could expect the worst person stuff would happen. In my case, it brought thoughts of dissection/vivisection. (serial killer that I knew that dismembered the bodies)
I was at gun point outside of school, by school kids another time.
To some degree, I think I know how these shooters feel. I don't feel sorry for the "victims", because in a lot of cases, the ones gone after are those who bullied them. In my friends class (remember 4 years older), the least popular/most bullied kid, started the school on fire (and then became popular). In my class, I was the least popular, but I don't think the MOST bullied. I know we did things like create war games to vent our frustration and had an interest in books such as the anarchist cookbook. I think it helped that my friends were older, because during my senior year, the few that I were close to split apart. (one graduated early, another committed suicide after being drugged/raped by a same sex friend, another was out for most of the year in rehab, relearning to walk after almost being killed in a crash by an uninsured motorist/lost his dream of becoming a cop, and the last was the one that set me up in a situation that put me at gunpoint, because he thought it would be funny.)
This is turning into a rant, sorry.
My point needs to be, I knew/learned/had driven into my head, there were consequences for me and violence. The only reason to fight is to kill, and don't expect to survive. I did get beat up once good (just missed knocking my eye out), as I knew it was take it, or take them off the second story and go down as well.
All these participation trophy things, are not teaching consequences.
Kids have a sense of invulnerability where they think they will just bounce back.
flowerseverywhere
2-17-18, 4:06am
The alternative to jailing people for talking about shooting people, is to get them court ordered mental health treatment for verbal threats of danger to others. We do it all the time in PHX. There’s 241 beds in my department for such situations.
There are answers. It’s not “lock them for thought crimes” versus “freedom for dangerous people”.
the tricky thing about mental health is as Bae mentioned, lack of beds. the laws are very tricky for keeping people in on involuntary status, it costs money and a third difficulty non compliance to medication. When you work in Mental health there are frequent fliers. Clean them up, get some food and meds in them, but unless they are a danger to themselves or others it is back out the door until the next crisis. At least when I spent my years in mental health facilities. Decreasing access to health care through cutting Medicaid will not help.
lots of great posts here explaining everyone’s feelings and the input has remained civil and informative. For once, no one said it was Trumps or Obama’s fault. Because it goes back quite a few presidents and lawmakers on all levels and parties. But we the people have to figure out what to do before More kids are slaughtered. Thoughts and prayers are not enough.
flowerseverywhere
2-17-18, 4:16am
I heard a horrifying yet logical statement today, regarding what happened to go from shotguns hanging in all the pickups parked on high school campuses and nobody shooting up schools, to where we are today... The statement was, "The military draft was abolished. Young men need training on weapons and on learning to live within the confines of society."
Wow. I never would have thought of it, and haven't heard or read anyone else say it, but then, I'm not a guy who was drafted and trained and sent to Viet Nam.
And the more I think about it, there probably is a huge truth there.
gun responsibility is a great thing, but living among many Vietnam Veterans I see many shattered men so many years after. Perhaps our willinglness to get involved in foreign wars with no clear objective or specific outcome , like defeating Hitler, has contributed to all of this. What were we doing in Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan for instance? Why have we sent so many of our young men to hostile foreign lands to destroy and kill? What is the matter with us? Does anyone really think we are going to win in the Middle East?
Oh - our 241 beds are usually full and there’s on average about 30 patients sitting in emergency depts waiting on our next available bed.
Those of you who've said you're willing to give up freedoms, are you willing to give the authorities unfettered access to your medical records, including mental health? That's where the slippery slope could very well lead.
ToomuchStuff
2-17-18, 10:35am
lots of great posts here explaining everyone’s feelings and the input has remained civil and informative. For once, no one said it was Trumps or Obama’s fault. Because it goes back quite a few presidents and lawmakers on all levels and parties.
That is because in the end, it is the fault of the one that pulls the trigger.
iris lilies
2-17-18, 11:00am
That is because in the end, it is the fault of the one that pulls the trigger.
Truth.
I thought this brought up some good points:
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/opinions/democrats-spare-me-your-hypocrisy-on-shooting-cupp/index.html
so, in summary, Republicans don't want to go on TV to discuss this because a Democrat is going to wag their finger at them? Therefore no dialog or change can take place? Not buying it.
But if campaign finance was reformed, then we'd have a starting point for politicians to tackle issues realistically.
ToomuchStuff
2-17-18, 11:33am
But if campaign finance was reformed, then we'd have a starting point for politicians to tackle issues realistically.
:laff:
Or more likely, they would focus on how to get around the new reforms to keep "their" money coming in and not worry about the job.
flowerseverywhere
2-17-18, 12:02pm
That is because in the end, it is the fault of the one that pulls the trigger.
yes. The time to stop blaming everyone is now. But it goes on. An FBI worker does not pass on crucial info about the shooter and immediately calls come for the director to step down. Always a blame game and often not at the person who was wrong.
Always looking for a politician or appointee to be the scapegoat
gimmethesimplelife
2-17-18, 12:42pm
I cringed when this happened - not just for the needless and insane loss of life and the devastated families left behind after this tragedy......but because the inevitable calls from my family in Austria came, on the one hand expressing fear for both my safety in America and my mother's but also rubbing it in my face subtly that they hold better citizenship than I do. This tragedy along with so many others makes me very embarrassed mostly to be in the United States and also makes me feel despair and hopelessness for the future of this country. I have a hard time separating my deep resentments......on the one hand I resent America very deeply for putting it's citizens and legal residents and hey, even illegals too......at constant and seemingly permanent risk of being a victim of such a tragedy due to the damnable 2nd Amendment......
On the other hand, I am really starting to resent my family in Austria for always rubbing it in my face that they hold much better citizenship than I do. They can be just as dense as wealthy Americans, they really can, and I've had my fill of it. I'm working my rear end off in a very hostile and inequitable society - something I started grasping at the age of 8 - I really don't need their smug comments regarding my inadequate citizenship. But they are family, what can I do? And logically, I am cold bloodedly practical enough to know they are very much right in what they say......at least at the moment. And I've always been decent enough to never refer to Austria's dark past in WW2........to be fair America did not go as far as Austria did. We may have forced Japanese folks into camps but we did not kill them.......they could at least see this and respect America for this much even though there is very very very much wrong with it. End of rant.......Rob
ToomuchStuff
2-17-18, 1:43pm
But they are family, what can I do?
Good lord, the guy with the fully charged smart phone, can't realize look at the phone number with the out of the country phone code, and don't answer it?
gimmethesimplelife
2-17-18, 2:03pm
Good lord, the guy with the fully charged smart phone, can't realize look at the phone number with the out of the country phone code, and don't answer it?I can't do this to family.......I won't disrespect family this way nor will I disrespect Austria this way. Sorry, no can do. Rob
ToomuchStuff
2-17-18, 2:10pm
I can't do this to family.......I won't disrespect family this way nor will I disrespect Austria this way. Sorry, no can do. Rob
If/when they are insulting you, it isn't disrespecting family, it is respecting yourself and simply not interacting in an abusive situation.
If caller ID had been a thing, that I would have had, it would have saved me from the deathbed "conversation" (I was wrongly taught not to talk back to dying, it isn't always right), where my great aunt told me how I shouldn't have been born and was so like the rapists in the tree. (and I had never met this woman)
gimmethesimplelife
2-17-18, 2:27pm
If/when they are insulting you, it isn't disrespecting family, it is respecting yourself and simply not interacting in an abusive situation.
If caller ID had been a thing, that I would have had, it would have saved me from the deathbed "conversation" (I was wrongly taught not to talk back to dying, it isn't always right), where my great aunt told me how I shouldn't have been born and was so like the rapists in the tree. (and I had never met this woman)Given that there has been a great deal of friction between us on this forum, and given that I don't care to feed into this today, all I'm going to say in reply is that I am sorry that your Great Aunt said this to you. Ouch. That must have been horrible to hear. You have my sympathy here. Rob
If the caller-id shows that it is certain of my relatives, I don’t pick up ever. They have continually attacked my father for being gay, have accused my father and I of “turning” their own sons gay, and have nothing but hate and religious spittle to offer. It is out of respect to my own psyche and out of respect to the sane members of our family that I simply don’t engage in banter with those hateful folks.
gimmethesimplelife
2-17-18, 3:19pm
If the caller-id shows that it is certain of my relatives, I don’t pick up ever. They have continually attacked my father for being gay, have accused my father and I of “turning” their own sons gay, and have nothing but hate and religious spittle to offer. It is out of respect to my own psyche and out of respect to the sane members of our family that I simply don’t engage in banter with those hateful folks.I see your point here, Bae, and I get it. I am related to some Austrian nationals that I won't speak to as they have issues with my being gay - similar it seems to your relatives having issues with your father - and what really pushed these relatives out of my life was a comment that I deserve to be gassed for being gay - this to put it mildly crossed the line and I will no longer speak to this Aunt and Uncle. Thankfully, most of my family - though a few are very "old Austria" i.e., extremely conservative even by US standards and I don't mean in term of social welfare, I mean in terms of roles one should play in society and how one should think and conduct themselves - most of my family is not like this. The relatives I am in touch with I'd consider fairly open minded and have no issue with my orientation. I am closest to my Cousin Astrid who is 8 days older than me and her husband, and Astrid's Mother, my Aunt and her husband,all of whom live in Vienna. I also have relatives I am in touch with but not as close to in Salzburg, Innsbruck, Graz, and even Linz (Austria's token attempt to resemble Detroit - an old formerly industrial city in sad shape though with a great deal of social welfare injected into it).
These people I am in touch with are basically very good people - they just have a different outlook on life and a different mentality than most Americans. Scary as this may seem to some - their outlook resembles mine overall - with a few exceptions. Something I find interesting is that my family will not go to Hungary to save money on dental (which is not socialized in Austria) - I would do this in a heartbeat. They say that doing such would be disrespectful, something that I don't understand - maybe it's what is American in me that blocks me from understanding this, I don't know.
And I've gotten sidetracked yet again......My point was that I can understand where you are coming from as there are relatives on my Mother's side I won't speak to (very much mutual) and there are relatives on my late Father's side in New England that I will have nothing to do with (once again, very much mutual). So I get your post. And good for you for standing up for your Father, Bae - I know we have had our differences on this board but I just want to say that I very much respect you for standing up for your Father. Kudos! Rob
Williamsmith
2-18-18, 9:04am
I know it’s easy to believe that the public conscience has been so numbed by the frequency of these incidents that we’ve fallen victim to the 24 hr newsfeed turnover and quickly forgotten about them. But this incident comes so quickly after the last, has so many of the same characteristics as previous ones that a groundswell of objection is possibly coming.
Many Republicans have bemoaned the fact that this Congress can’t get off their butts long enough to get something done legislatively. Well, I think you might be looking at one of the fastest moving changes in gun control in a long time. It’s going to be accompanied by other more common sense actions but the AR 15s availability to the public is going to be shut off. Just the image of the rifle has become a national disgrace.
Ill tell you how bad its gotten. There are images of children running out of that school with their hands up. They had to step over bodies of their fellow students that were murdered by a person holding an AR15. As they ran, they passed a law enforcement official holding an AR15. They must have seen that gun and even though a police officer was there to help them....had to add more fear on top of their terror.
There are law abiding sportsmen who shoot AR15 platform rifles at ranges and some hunt with them. Some of those people realize that simply being seen with it in their hands engenders certain defense mechanisms from other people. Could it even get to the point of a buy back program for them? I think it could. And the irony is this could happen under a Republican President, and a Republican house and senate and a Supreme Court weighted toward the second amendment.
If we abolish AR15 "assault rifles", what about my Ruger Mini 14? It fires the same ammunition, the same rate of fire and accommodates a 30 round magazine but doesn't look quite as scary. Do you think an "assault rifle" ban would cover this as well?
https://fws-files.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/website/auctions/items/full/184467_2.jpg
Williamsmith
2-18-18, 9:37am
Of course not Alan. This is about feelings. What response does the image elicit. Your example creates an image of courageous soldiers storming the beaches of Normandy and rescuing the world from tyranny. The image of the AR15 immediately arouses fear and loathing for images of murdered children and chanting white militia members yelling second amendment memes. I know sportmen who won’t own an AR15 but would own a mini 14......are you one?
Of course, the AR15 is first......they can get around to the mini 14 later.
I should have mentioned in the previous post that I already knew the answer to that question, but think it's important for others to think about the difference between an emotional response and a rational response. We should discourage the first and embrace the latter.
As for your final question, I'd be happy with either, although I prefer the cleaner lines of the Mini 14, knowing that there's no functional difference.
Williamsmith
2-18-18, 10:02am
Alan, you have to admit that while the mini 14 works on the same principle and is capable of the same rate of fire ...there are features of the AR platform which make it desirable over the mini 14. The ability to accessorize....it’s LEGO like ability to add and subtract features, its light weight, it’s recoil Management, target acquisition and accuracy. It has become an idol that children worship over in fantasy games. Capitalist principles have marketed this thing and made it into an icon. That’s the real genesis of the problem.
In Pennsylvania, we have a gun culture deeper than any in the US but there has been a disagreement over whether to allow AR15 type rifles to be used for hunting larger game. The argument goes well beyond the efficiency of the caliber .223. It goes into the realm of the lack of ethics, using a semiauto and into safety issues....hunters spraying bullets around the woods willynilly.
I just use this this as an example of how easy it is to drum up hatred and disgust for this specific rifle. It has a very tentative acceptance level as we speak and very likely will fall.
I own a Smith and Wesson MP-15. I bought it on a whim when everyone said Hillary was going to win, and of coarse ban them. They are one of the most popular rifles out there, I’m guessing millions. I’ve taken mine and tried it out at the range, it’s ok to shoot, but not nearly my most accurate rifle. And the Shell is pretty small compared to my 30-06 or 7mm mag.
I would not be surprised if they banned them again, I don’t really care one way or the other. If it makes some people feel better. But of coarse where does it end? Is the mini 14 next? How about the high capacity, semi auto 22 I got in the 8 th grade?
And what about the millions already out there? Are they to be confiscated, or grandfathered in. I don’t see buy backs working, the last one I saw in St. Louis was giving $50 gift certificates. I’ve never heard of buy backs paying fair market value.
iris lilies
2-18-18, 11:23am
I own a Smith and Wesson MP-15. I bought it on a whim when everyone said Hillary was going to win, and of coarse ban them. They are one of the most popular rifles out there, I’m guessing millions. I’ve taken mine and tried it out at the range, it’s ok to shoot, but not nearly my most accurate rifle. And the Shell is pretty small compared to my 30-06 or 7mm mag.
I would not be surprised if they banned them again, I don’t really care one way or the other. If it makes some people feel better. But of coarse where does it end? Is the mini 14 next? How about the high capacity, semi auto 22 I got in the 8 th grade?
And what about the millions already out there? Are they to be confiscated, or grandfathered in. I don’t see buy backs working, the last one I saw in St. Louis was giving $50 gift certificates. I’ve never heard of buy backs paying fair market value.
Dmc we had another gun buyback session in St. Louis just a few months ago.
we are still trending dor no 1 in the country for homicides, so yay us!
Dmc we had another gun buyback session in St. Louis just a few months ago.
we are still trending dor no 1 in the country for homicides, so yay us!
What, you mean the thugs aren’t turning in their guns?
I had a couple of old junk double barrel shotguns, old Damascus barreled antiques. I was thinking of turning them in but what they were offering wasn’t worth the trip to town. I hear some went down and offered to pay a little more to the people in line if they had something that was worth something. Most were just turning in old junk that had been sitting in closets or under the bed for years.
Williamsmith
2-18-18, 12:42pm
Trump is first and foremost a deal maker. The gun control issue is a huge bargaining chip to use with the liberals holding up other issues he may deem more urgent. Like say, immigration reform and the wall. The NRA is not the all powerful lobby many portray them to be. And lately there’s been a concern that they have been infiltrated with moderates and a dash of liberalism. Which is the biggest deal breaker for re-election, not getting anything done on immigration reform or letting a few restrictions for gun ownership pass without too much complaining?
flowerseverywhere
2-18-18, 5:29pm
Trump is first and foremost a deal maker. The gun control issue is a huge bargaining chip to use with the liberals holding up other issues he may deem more urgent. Like say, immigration reform and the wall. The NRA is not the all powerful lobby many portray them to be. And lately there’s been a concern that they have been infiltrated with moderates and a dash of liberalism. Which is the biggest deal breaker for re-election, not getting anything done on immigration reform or letting a few restrictions for gun ownership pass without too much complaining?
as much as I think a great big beautiful wall is stupid, I hope you are right. As long as the controls aren’t symbolic. The fact that you can have a history like this last guy and walk in and buy a gun of this type should make us all ashamed.
And so so far I have not seen a good deal maker, just a bully who belittles and fires people who don’t agree with him.
ToomuchStuff
2-19-18, 9:11am
I do wonder how long until the push for an armed presence in schools, swings the other way, and they start talking about the militarization of police in side the schools.
Just like views swing, there seems to be several trains of thought on the whole NRA thing, that leaves them with a damned if they do, damned if they don't position. (my understanding is the NRA requested the government, do another review of bump stocks, that they have found perfectly legal twice before, in an antigun presidency, which should get the same results)
For those who argue compromise, I would guess they are FEELING hungry, rather then reasoning. I found an illustration that demonstrates the two arguments: http://i.imgur.com/lb3jsvo.png (https://i.imgur.com/lb3jsvo.png)
Williamsmith
2-19-18, 9:22am
The one thing about thta illustration is they left out the expiration of the assault weapons ban which flooded the market with AR15s. It was a big piece of that cake that was given back. All my life I have obserced that groups are judged not by what the majority of law abiding members do, but by what a few screwballs do. And the entire group is punished. This will be no different. Who looks into the eye of a child whose best friend was eviscerated by a projectile shot from an AR15 and says.....”Yes, that sucks.....but we can’t do without the AR15....second amendment ya know.” It just won’t flush this time.
ToomuchStuff
2-19-18, 9:41am
The one thing about thta illustration is they left out the expiration of the assault weapons ban which flooded the market with AR15s. It was a big piece of that cake that was given back. All my life I have obserced that groups are judged not by what the majority of law abiding members do, but by what a few screwballs do. And the entire group is punished. This will be no different. Who looks into the eye of a child whose best friend was eviscerated by a projectile shot from an AR15 and says.....”Yes, that sucks.....but we can’t do without the AR15....second amendment ya know.” It just won’t flush this time.
Here is the tshirt: http://www.tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/school-shootings-tour
And all the while you could be singing that song about Brenda Spencer. (I don't like Monday's)
Youth are a force to be reckoned with if they put their hearts and minds together for a common benefit. Do you think that this situation will trigger a joint effort by youth to take charge of the situation and demand tools and support to create a safer school environment across the country? There is always a tipping point. Since youth have been the target, youth may well say, "Enough, what can we do to stop it from happening?"
Youth made a difference in the sixties, and ushered in a new era. I think the time is well past for an uprising.
Chicken lady
2-19-18, 9:02pm
I am a teacher.
i do not want to take a bullet for your child.
i do not want to put a bullet in your child.
i am a mother.
and I watched my children and their friends grow up, and I love them. But for a long time, they were idiots. if you don’t think you can trust them with beer, why in the hell would you let them have a gun?
Gun (you can arm a kid who is too young to drive)
Car
vote
Beer
personally, I think it should be
beer,
car,
vote,
gun.
flowerseverywhere
2-20-18, 6:26am
Youth made a difference in the sixties, and ushered in a new era. I think the time is well past for an uprising.
I hope so. The adults in charge have screwed up big time.
flowerseverywhere
2-20-18, 6:37am
I am a teacher.
i do not want to take a bullet for your child.
i do not want to put a bullet in your child.
i am a mother.
and I watched my children and their friends grow up, and I love them. But for a long time, they were idiots. if you don’t think you can trust them with beer, why in the hell would you let them have a gun?
Gun (you can arm a kid who is too young to drive)
Car
vote
Beer
personally, I think it should be
beer,
car,
vote,
gun.
Teachers have enough responsibility. You go to school to learn reading, writing and arithmetic. Teachers are always on the lookout for signals of abuse or neglect and do their duty to report per the law. Most teachers I have known really care about their charges and helping them build the foundation, then the supporting structure, then the finishing touches on skills that will remain with them for the rest of their lives. My young grandchildren are learning geography, Spanish, science...the list is endless of what they are exposed to. When I look at the kind sweet teachers who give my elementary age grandchildren so much I could never imagine them shooting someone. They seem so devoted and kind but firm to their charges as it should be with young children . Many people, like me, have never touched a gun. I would not be good in a shooting. Teachers have so much responsibility as it is their time can surely be put to better use.
Williamsmith
2-20-18, 7:31am
Reasonable minds will conclude that teaching and security are independent efforts. A teachers relationship to students changes if you introduce a gun into the situation. Let teachers do what they do best, teach. Hire professional security for the school. We do it at courthouses and airports and government buildings , we just have to value our children as much as we value Judges, passengers and elected officials.
There is something very, very wrong when every part of one's life needs a security detail attached.
Thought is ever father and mother to the deed.
IMHO, what is needed is outrage and rebellion to take back control of our communities and institutions by citizens themselves. What is defeating whole societies around the world? It is lack of competent leadership providing strong positive standards of exemplary behaviour plus apathy and fear in the citizens. Until that changes in the thought of each one of us... Who was it that said "We are the change that we want to see".
I'm a certified ALiCE (https://www.alicetraining.com/) instructor. One of the things we teach is the concept of the OODA Loop (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop). This is a critical aspect of the point in a mass shooting where potential victims are trapped in a confined space with no point of egress except through the shooter. If you have gotten past the point where run or hide are effective defenses and your only option is to fight, upsetting the shooters OODA Loop through throwing cell phones, books, shoes, etc., would be much more effective if you were also throwing .40 caliber rounds at him, but for some reason we've criminalized the ability to do that.
Chicken lady
2-20-18, 8:46am
Alan, if you arm teachers, you make me a target.
i personally will not be armed, but that is irrelevant.
first, shoot the teacher.
i vote we disarm everybody under 21 who isn’t required to be armed because of their job, on a shooting range (using a gun owned by a mentor) or hunting under the supervision of someone over 21 instead. Actually, if you are over 18 and have a valid hunting license, i’m Ok with you owning a gun appropriate for the game you are hunting and using it unsupervised.
the day they allow teachers to carry is my last day.
Alan, if you arm teachers, you make me a target.
In my example you're already a target, the question is whether you're an easy target or a hard target and whether or not you can increase the survivability rate of your students.
I'm not saying that every teacher should be armed, I'm saying they should have a choice.
Williamsmith
2-20-18, 9:11am
With all due respect to Alan and his convictions, while having a firearm to answer back at the attacker is obviously best....you can not disregard the consequences of introducing firearms into the school system. There are going to be unintentional discharges, negligent discharges, accidental discharges, thefts, disarming teachers by students, civil and criminal liability for shootings which meet unjustified circumstances. There is a myriad of problems this would create. You would simply make it easier for an attack by providing guns for them.
In my opinion having interacted with teachers and administrators...this is a recipe for adding turmoil to the situation. The right direction to go is denying access to the school through active and passive defense. The sign on the door that says gun free zone must be more than an expression of politics.....it must really mean you do not bring a gun in here period. And if you try, you will be stopped and possibly killed in the process.
Chicken lady
2-20-18, 9:25am
And i’m saying that if a shooter expects the teacher to be armed, the teacher is not A target, the teacher is the FIRST target. The person with the gun is now thinking “spot and shoot the teacher” not “terrify and spray the room.” Unless the teacher is someone who will remain calm and steady and has excellent marksmanship, you have just reduced the effectiveness of the teacher. If you select for defense in the unlikely effect of a school shooting - you eliminate a lot of really good teachers and reduce the effectiveness of the actual teaching.
Here is what I know about myself in a crisis - I will panic. What I do after I panic may or may not be effective, but it will not be rational. Many many times my dh has looked at me and asked “why would you do A” And all I can tell him is “because I didn’t want to do B” B being the result of what I feared would happen if I didn’t do A.
And i’m saying that if a shooter expects the teacher to be armed, the teacher is not A target, the teacher is the FIRST target. The person with the gun is now thinking “spot and shoot the teacher” not “terrify and spray the room.” Unless the teacher is someone who will remain calm and steady and has excellent marksmanship, you have just reduced the effectiveness of the teacher. If you select for defense in the unlikely effect of a school shooting - you eliminate a lot of really good teachers and reduce the effectiveness of the actual teaching.
Here is what I know about myself in a crisis - I will panic. What I do after I panic may or may not be effective, but it will not be rational. Many many times my dh has looked at me and asked “why would you do A” And all I can tell him is “because I didn’t want to do B” B being the result of what I feared would happen if I didn’t do A.Not everyone can be a sheepdog, but many can.
The adults in charge have screwed up big time.
Actually embarrassed that in many cases, we have not been a good example for our youth. Especially our complacency to bring about change for the better. Way too many old people running the show so I hope these teenagers rise up and lead the charge.
Chicken lady
2-20-18, 9:42am
The top five teachers in my school (none of them me) might step in front of a gun for their students, but I am completely sure none of them would put a bullet in another person. Add a skill, reduce your selection pool. We already don’t have enough decent teachers (and I chose “decent”, not “good” deliberately)
i am going to have to step out of this conversation. I’m sorry if it seems like I am being rude and trying to have the last word, but I am realizing it is bad for me right now.
So add crossfire to the equation if you want even more carnage. Unless you post trained sharpshooters at every door, this isn't a good idea. Apparently, many in the crowd in Las Vegas were armed, for all the good it did. This isn't the Wild West.
Having an arms race between teachers and students in public schools just seems so wrong. All teachers ARE sheepdogs--they shepherd their students to knowledge, wisdom, prudence, civil behavior. Being gun-toting shepherds of self-defense is not what I see as part of their job description.
So add crossfire to the equation if you want even more carnage. Unless you post trained sharpshooters at every door, this isn't a good idea. Apparently, many in the crowd in Las Vegas were armed, for all the good it did. This isn't the Wild West.
If you look at mass shootings, especially in schools, there is one fact that stands out above all others, passive defense measures result in higher body counts than active defense measures. At Virginia Tech there were 6 classrooms targeted, 3 employed active countermeasures and 3 did not. There were 2 fatalities in the active rooms and 28 in the passive rooms as the shooter was able to walk through the rooms casually shooting cowering victims, the harder target in the active rooms saved many lives. Hardening any target works.
Williamsmith
2-20-18, 10:07am
I will say that Alan is right about our need for “sheepdogs” in our country. We do have a gun culture and unfortunately it has been changed from respect to bravado. So a person with the right training and the right mindset is a valuable asset when he is armed in a society like ours when just about anywhere you go you can expect someone is carrying a gun...legally or not and not all of them are mentally qualified to be doing so. We now have more guns in this country than we have people. If you stopped manufacturing guns today....that’s the scenario.
So I don’t see why we should even consider asking a teacher to arm him or herself even if they want to. I’m not of the mind that there should be absolutely no gun free zones. I just think that’s what they really should be if they are advertised as such. We should have people with guns outside the gun free zone making it so. God knows we have plenty of guns to do the job.
And in a wider view, I think the country ought to examine itself in this regard. Why do we feel it’s okay to drop a bomb on a school in the Middle East and kill children but get outraged when a terrorist shoots up a public school here at home? Are we really okay with the kind of money we pour into distributing guns and violence throughout the world? Even if you can justify it by saying, “Well, we kill them over there so we don’t have to kill them here!” Can we justify the kind of debt we have just for the pleasure of calling ourselves the worlds firewall against tyranny and an exporter of freedom. While at home, we ignore the needs we have here.
I went off on on a tangent but my point is....violence begets violence. Guns are fine but like anything too much of a good thing is a bad thing. We handle guns in this country like they are candy bars for children. And since my generation hasn’t the will to try solutions, we have our children and grandchildren stepping up to the plate. It’s damn embarrassing.
gimmethesimplelife
2-20-18, 11:08am
I know someone who's at their wits end with this citizenship - it's not me by the way. This is a man in his 40's who lived in a higher income zip than mine and who once held a very high paying job in hospitality management - a good deal higher on the totem pole than my job. Got cleaned out by an ex-wife in a brutal divorce - lost his kids, his house, almost all of his money due to the court directing it to his ex plus due to legal expenses. Lives in the 85006 now. He was held up downtown (a gun was part of this) pushing him over the edge into a nervous breakdown - it was like the last straw. Now he is so frustrated and has centered much of his anger around guns in the US - this seems to be his outlet though I do very much agree with his take on guns in America.
Getting to the point, he debates going to Washington DC and going from foreign embassy to foreign embassy and seeing if any country will take him due to the risk all Americans face due to guns in America.....and this is a highly educated and once successful person that wants out permanently. He's got issues other than guns going on but it's refreshing to me to see someone else who just wants out and who can see the risk to human life that guns in America represent on a brutally clear basis with no excuses or apologies and just wants out for good. I can totally understand this - to me this man has a great deal of common sense and even more, a high level of class. I hope he can get out. He's going to thrift shops these days to find things to sell online at a profit and it's not going all that well but he is slowly putting some money together to run.
I will say once again though that there are issues in play other than guns here - the phony allegations his ex wife threw around in court to see to it that he could have no contact with his kids have something to do with his wanting out of this country permanently, too and I don't blame him one bit for this but he insists it's mostly gun related. Very insightful and interesting man too - were he gay I would have found him an attractive man were I in the market - not so much for looks and certainly not due to his financial situation but due to his common sense. Common sense to me is nothing short of intoxicating.
I hope he's able to get out of America but I don't know that his chances are that good in a world with so many legitimate refugees. Think of the Rohingya - over 600,000 of them having fled from Myanmar to refugee camps in Bangladesh - to me these folks should take priority though I could not agree more with my friend here. The world really can break your heart when you get right down to it, no? Rob
I know someone who's at their wits end with this citizenship - it's not me by the way. This is a man in his 40's who lived in a higher income zip than mine and who once held a very high paying job in hospitality management - a good deal higher on the totem pole than my job. Got cleaned out by an ex-wife in a brutal divorce - lost his kids, his house, almost all of his money due to the court directing it to his ex plus due to legal expenses. Lives in the 85006 now. Did the court take away his job too or were there other factors leading to everything else described?
gimmethesimplelife
2-20-18, 11:17am
The top five teachers in my school (none of them me) might step in front of a gun for their students, but I am completely sure none of them would put a bullet in another person. Add a skill, reduce your selection pool. We already don’t have enough decent teachers (and I chose “decent”, not “good” deliberately)
i am going to have to step out of this conversation. I’m sorry if it seems like I am being rude and trying to have the last word, but I am realizing it is bad for me right now.I've never thought of this issue from a teacher's perspective until now. The job of teaching in a public school suddenly looks a lot more risky and more than that, underpaid for the level of BS directed towards teachers and due to this new risk due to what US society has become and due to the easy availability of guns in the US......I wonder if this continues if there is going to be a harder time getting people to step up to the plate and become teachers in the future.....I would not be surprised if young people in college are rethinking teaching and giving it up as a potential career due to the risk involved of loss of life through no fault of their own.
All kinds of domino effects due to the easy availability of guns in America, no? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
2-20-18, 11:28am
Did the court take away his job too or were there other factors leading to everything else described?Basically this man has been pushed too damned far through no real fault of his own and there is even less for him in America than there is for me......it's only common sense he'd want out at this point. Kind of like how visiting Hungary in 1987 ruined US citizenship for men(Hungary was still a Communist country at that time)
as I saw firsthand that Hungarians were housed and fed and not doing all that bad,what ruined things for this man I believe was the court believing his ex wife's lies with no questions whatsoever - his ex was able to lie in court and fix things so that this man could have no access to his kids.
I believe that being held up downtown pushed him over the edge into nervous breakdown territory and he's got a lot of understandable and justifiable anger......guns seem to be his outlet for directing the anger to but on the other hand, I could not agree more with his taken on guns. I have told him that he'd have a better chance getting into a developing country - think a higher end such country such as Chile or Uruguay - a country that would look down on the easy availability of guns and the effects of such on society, and one that does not take in many refugees and which is not on a typical refugees list. Rob
PS Came back to address your question about this man's job - he is no longer able to work such a stressful job with such long hours - the nervous breakdown ended that, I don't know for how long. He does pick up banquet shifts - this is how I met him before running into him from time to time in the 85006. Realistically, he's got a long climb ahead of him if he were he to remain in the US - my take is that he is indeed better off leaving under these conditions. A better country with more basic rights might energize him......I've been able to direct him to where he was able to get meds for his depression and he tells me he's looking into signing up for Medicaid (which would keep him on the anti depressant meds without the need to go to Mexico for them)....but he just wants out as he can't see any real reason to bother with life in America. I still believe the crux of this is losing his kids due to his ex's lies - but the gun thing? Indeed a valid reason to permanently leave America. America (or any other country for that matter) is not worth this risk. Just common sense from the 86006. Rob
Be careful in your interactions with this guy Rob, anyone with a grudge that big resting on their shoulders could easily snap. We don't want to be reading about you in the newspapers.
gimmethesimplelife
2-20-18, 11:49am
Be careful in your interactions with this guy Rob, anyone with a grudge that big resting on their shoulders could easily snap. We don't want to be reading about you in the newspapers.Thank you for your concern Alan, I mean this sincerely. This man would not hurt a fly -he represents no danger. A dangerous person would be plotting revenge and seething with anger - this man just wants out of this society and to start over elsewhere. He's been pushed to this stance through no real fault of his own - if anything I'd be questioning a society that would allow such a high income, productive, tax paying person to be reduced to this, pushed to this, and screwed over to this level. Rob
This man would not hurt a fly -he represents no danger.Famous last words. Be careful.
flowerseverywhere
2-20-18, 5:52pm
If you look at mass shootings, especially in schools, there is one fact that stands out above all others, passive defense measures result in higher body counts than active defense measures. At Virginia Tech there were 6 classrooms targeted, 3 employed active countermeasures and 3 did not. There were 2 fatalities in the active rooms and 28 in the passive rooms as the shooter was able to walk through the rooms casually shooting cowering victims, the harder target in the active rooms saved many lives. Hardening any target works.
Hardening the targets? What about disarming the shooters? Tonight I watched the local Florida news. They were interviewing teachers. One cried as she talked about watching her student die, she was to lose three students in the rampage. You honestly think kids are going to be OK if a teacher starts opening fire? War veterans have PTSD and they are trained adults. Kids would surely be damaged watching even more carnage. These kids will never be the same.
This is not a video game or a movie. This is real life. Young men and women who are our future, our promise. They deserve to walk down a street, go to a church, movie theater or school and not have some angry crazy white gun toting guy shoot everybody up.
Where is your compassion for these young kids? So you handled guns your whole life. Most of us are not part of the gun culture. If I saw a person shoot an innocent child I don’t know if I could bear to live I would be so overcome with horror and grief. What does it do to young people o walk through metal detectors and see armed guards.
A few weeks After 9/11 I was in the Miami airport. There were armed guards walking around. It did not for one second comfort me. On the contrary it made me feel vulnerable and incredibly sad.
I hope these young kids take this to the max and keep in everybody’s face. It’s time to do something different. What we are doing is not working. Since the first shooting there have been many more. For what? What are you defending yourself against? After Obama’s was elected there was a huge run on ammo and guns as people thought they were going to have their guns confiscated through martial law. Ridiculous. Rumors and lies have made us a pathetic society who cannot even keep innocent schoolchildren safe. I am ashamed.
Hardening the targets? What about disarming the shooters? Tonight I watched the local Florida news. They were interviewing teachers. One cried as she talked about watching her student die, she was to lose three students in the rampage. You honestly think kids are going to be OK if a teacher starts opening fire? War veterans have PTSD and they are trained adults. Kids would surely be damaged watching even more carnage. These kids will never be the same.
This is not a video game or a movie. This is real life. Young men and women who are our future, our promise. They deserve to walk down a street, go to a church, movie theater or school and not have some angry crazy white gun toting guy shoot everybody up.
Where is your compassion for these young kids? So you handled guns your whole life. Most of us are not part of the gun culture. If I saw a person shoot an innocent child I don’t know if I could bear to live I would be so overcome with horror and grief. What does it do to young people o walk through metal detectors and see armed guards.
A few weeks After 9/11 I was in the Miami airport. There were armed guards walking around. It did not for one second comfort me. On the contrary it made me feel vulnerable and incredibly sad.
I hope these young kids take this to the max and keep in everybody’s face. It’s time to do something different. What we are doing is not working. Since the first shooting there have been many more. For what? What are you defending yourself against? After Obama’s was elected there was a huge run on ammo and guns as people thought they were going to have their guns confiscated through martial law. Ridiculous. Rumors and lies have made us a pathetic society who cannot even keep innocent schoolchildren safe. I am ashamed.
We've banned and criminalized at various times alcohol and illegal drugs without much success. Some of us have suggested we change societal norms, using social and peer pressure to influence anti-social behaviors but all that gets is accusations of intolerance, racism, sexism and religious fundamentalism (even if you're an atheist). The only other thing I can think of is to ensure innocent targets have the protection they deserve, and I think that a teacher using a legal weapon to save their lives would be well remembered as the students grow. My level of compassion in wanting them to survive at any cost may seem strange to some, but there it is.
flowerseverywhere
2-20-18, 8:58pm
We've banned and criminalized at various times alcohol and illegal drugs without much success. Some of us have suggested we change societal norms, using social and peer pressure to influence anti-social behaviors but all that gets is accusations of intolerance, racism, sexism and religious fundamentalism (even if you're an atheist). The only other thing I can think of is to ensure innocent targets have the protection they deserve, and I think that a teacher using a legal weapon to save their lives would be well remembered as the students grow. My level of compassion in wanting them to survive at any cost may seem strange to some, but there it is.
i am not convinced. We own so many guns already, far more in proportion to other developed countries. When was the last time you heard of multiple mass shootings in Australia, UK, Germany and so on. If guns don’t kill people, people do why are we not seeing slaughters in these low gun ownership countries by native born young men?
https://www.cnn.com/2017/10/03/americas/us-gun-statistics/index.html
maybe some war veterans could weigh in. My experience working at the VA and having Vietnam vets as friends did not show that exposure to death was a good thing. It haunts many people forever.
We’ve been doing it your way for a while, building up Arsenals. It is not working.
I always find fascinating the argument that if we make owning guns criminal only criminals will own guns and therefore ti's pointless. After all, we've made robbing banks, breaking into houses, stealing cars, raping people, etc, illegal, and yet still people persist in doing those things. But no one has proposed that those laws are a wasted effort and should be repealed.
ToomuchStuff
2-20-18, 10:40pm
I always find fascinating the argument that if we make owning guns criminal only criminals will own guns and therefore ti's pointless. After all, we've made robbing banks, breaking into houses, stealing cars, raping people, etc, illegal, and yet still people persist in doing those things. But no one has proposed that those laws are a wasted effort and should be repealed.
Those others are not rights spelled out in our founding documents.
If you want to compare to something that would cause as much argument if repealed, lets discuss something that people believe this president to be and would expect him to support. Making guns illegal, would be tant amount to repealing the 13th, 14, and 15th amendments.
Those others are not rights spelled out in our founding documents.
If you want to compare to something that would cause as much argument if repealed, lets discuss something that people believe this president to be and would expect him to support. Making guns illegal, would be tant amount to repealing the 13th, 14, and 15th amendments.
But people never say it that way. They always say "well, what the eff is the point of outlawing guns since outlaws will always have guns anyway... It's just hopeless. oh my, thoughts and prayers... That's the best we can do..." I'd much rather they be honest and say "your dead kids are sacrificing their lives so that I can own a bunch of damn guns." But of course that's not the way they say it because they'd sound like psychopaths.
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 5:07am
In my mind, New gun control laws are a given. It’s just who is going to get to take credit. Trump is moving forward aggressively with the bumpstock regulatory ban by ATF and Feinstein can’t stand that he might get the credit for it so she’s insisting that Congress get to act on it. That’s just the start.
And now, I going to put my tinfoil hat on and tell you that Congress and the President and the supreme Court do not function as independent counter balances anymore. Because there are no personal secrets that the intelligence community doesn’t know. If the FBI wants more gun control......and they do.....they will get it with the help of NSA metadata. We already have the ability to bypass due process thanks to 9/11 and the FISA Court. It’s just like shooting politicians in a barrel. All this was happening before but now it’s out in the open because Trump didn’t know how to play the game.
And now I return you to your regularly scheduled programming.........
I can't express myself as well as many of you here. But I just want to say that I am totally distressed that some gun owners can't give one small iota to try to help a horrendous-out of control situation. I mean give me an f'ing break........assault rifles???? You can't even give a centimeter on that. You keep referring to the second amendment. Well, then, maybe everyone who screams that it's their right, should be allowed all the muskets they want. Not only is it ridiculous to allow a right to something that was in a totally different world when that amendment was made, but how can you possibly think that controlling some guns somehow cannot be any part of a solution?
I'm astounded at the difference of our minds here. Are some gun owners so paranoid that they can't see past their own fears? Are they so rebellious that they'll be damned if anyone tries to take away all their weapons..........even the ones that were meant for war? I can only shake my head in disbelief and sadness that we have come to the point of absolutely wanting nothing done to stop this carnage........other than more people using more guns. Unbelievable.
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 8:45am
I can't express myself as well as many of you here. But I just want to say that I am totally distressed that some gun owners can't give one small iota to try to help a horrendous-out of control situation. I mean give me an f'ing break........assault rifles???? You can't even give a centimeter on that. You keep referring to the second amendment. Well, then, maybe everyone who screams that it's their right, should be allowed all the muskets they want. Not only is it ridiculous to allow a right to something that was in a totally different world when that amendment was made, but how can you possibly think that controlling some guns somehow cannot be any part of a solution?
I'm astounded at the difference of our minds here. Are some gun owners so paranoid that they can't see past their own fears? Are they so rebellious that they'll be damned if anyone tries to take away all their weapons..........even the ones that were meant for war? I can only shake my head in disbelief and sadness that we have come to the point of absolutely wanting nothing done to stop this carnage........other than more people using more guns. Unbelievable.
Like most arguments when each side refuses to understand the other then they separate. At this point the two sides seem to have decided they each are right. To the guns rights advocate the word “compromise” is treason. To the anti gun person the other side is represented by evil, ignorant, mostly white male nitwits.
The guns rights advocate is insulted that the antis don’t learn that an “assault weapon” is a term made up to demonize the semiautomatic rifle that cosmetically appears the same as a battle rifle but does not function the same. There is no select fire option which allows it to function in automatic “machinegun” mode. So it would help if people would familiarize themselves with the firearm they are trying to restrict.
Both sides have massaged their facts and statistics to favor their argument and frankly have outright lied and spread propaganda. How do the two sides reconcile when each distrusts the other? There are a minority of gun owners who claim they will resist. I have to be rather skeptical because government can “encourage” them to comply with financial starvation. And so I think it is in everyone’s best interest to ....dare I say it.....Compromise. The many will suffer for the fews inability to handle firearms in a mature and respectful manner.
I appreciate what you are saying, Williamsmith...........and we'll see what happens with the laws. It just seems to me that we're willing to allow some freedoms, at an incredibly high cost. As has been said before, there are more gun deaths every day in other places, than happens at these mass shootings. Uh.....yeah.......so why are we all insisting on rights that are destroying us......just to adhere to an amendment that wasn't meant for this society in this time.
I see the U.S. as starting out with good intentions, but has gone haywire with rights. I know there is a fine line between rights and no rights.........but I like to think of some of our rights as like bad viruses in our bodies. How can we accept them as "having a right to be there", if they kill some people. Sure, some people get the virus and die, and some don't. Should the people who don't get it and don't die support the virus's right to be there? We're getting more and more problems because everyone demands their own individual rights, without concern for the good of the whole. As far as all the bad that's happening in this country.........I fear the horse is out of the barn. We've all grown so accustomed to feeling we have the right to have and do anything we want. :(
I don't think we suffer from an overabundance of rights. I think we suffer from a deficit of responsibility.
I don't think we suffer from an overabundance of rights. I think we suffer from a deficit of responsibility.
yes, but we don't punish people enough for when they are irresponsible. We're too soft on them, so that the fear of what can happen to them isn't strong, they know the punishment wont' be too bad. What we expect from everyone these days is low. What our country puts its money into, isn't to improve the citizens.
ToomuchStuff
2-21-18, 10:39am
But people never say it that way. They always say "well, what the eff is the point of outlawing guns since outlaws will always have guns anyway... It's just hopeless. oh my, thoughts and prayers... That's the best we can do..." I'd much rather they be honest and say "your dead kids are sacrificing their lives so that I can own a bunch of damn guns." But of course that's not the way they say it because they'd sound like psychopaths.
Being honest would ask, what do we defend our president with? What do we defend our public with via police or military? What do we have standing around at banks? And what do we defend our kids with? The answers are Guns, guns, armed guards and a sign that says NO GUN ZONE.
Yes we have more gun violence then other countries, because we have more guns. Other countries have more knife violence, car violence, bomb making, etc. because of access. We even have that stuff here, and yet we are not blaming knives, alcohol, cars or other inanimate objects.
I can't express myself as well as many of you here. But I just want to say that I am totally distressed that some gun owners can't give one small iota to try to help a horrendous-out of control situation. I mean give me an f'ing break........assault rifles???? You can't even give a centimeter on that. You keep referring to the second amendment. Well, then, maybe everyone who screams that it's their right, should be allowed all the muskets they want. Not only is it ridiculous to allow a right to something that was in a totally different world when that amendment was made, but how can you possibly think that controlling some guns somehow cannot be any part of a solution?
I'm astounded at the difference of our minds here. Are some gun owners so paranoid that they can't see past their own fears? Are they so rebellious that they'll be damned if anyone tries to take away all their weapons..........even the ones that were meant for war? I can only shake my head in disbelief and sadness that we have come to the point of absolutely wanting nothing done to stop this carnage........other than more people using more guns. Unbelievable.
The guns rights advocate is insulted that the antis don’t learn that an “assault weapon” is a term made up to demonize the semiautomatic rifle that cosmetically appears the same as a battle rifle but does not function the same. There is no select fire option which allows it to function in automatic “machinegun” mode. So it would help if people would familiarize themselves with the firearm they are trying to restrict.
Both sides have massaged their facts and statistics to favor their argument and frankly have outright lied and spread propaganda. How do the two sides reconcile when each distrusts the other? There are a minority of gun owners who claim they will resist. I have to be rather skeptical because government can “encourage” them to comply with financial starvation. And so I think it is in everyone’s best interest to ....dare I say it.....Compromise. The many will suffer for the fews inability to handle firearms in a mature and respectful manner.
In a time of war, everything is a weapon, the most important one being the ones man has had the longest, his hands and his brain. All weapons are weapons of war. (includes others such as the first amendment) Cathy would be wise to learn what that rifle actually is as well as watch the video that has been listed before on magazine capacity verse a person. If you can't make valid points, you do get ignored as a screaming child, when wanting to have an actual REASONING conversation. There is some logic to the concept of we should have the same "weapons of war" that our government has, and in reality, we do and have in the past saw what happens when we divide on an issue (civil war where weapons that belong to the people are used by the people/brothers etc, against one another).
One argument I have yet to see brought about is what rights are you willing to give up in compromise Cathy? Your free speech right, the right to vote, the right to your life, your liberty, or your pursuit of happiness? Some other right in the bill of rights?
I don't think we suffer from an overabundance of rights. I think we suffer from a deficit of responsibility.
Certainly the shooter did, the FBI did, all those kids who teased the shooter mercilessly did, as well as those who knew/saw the posts and didn't report him, or act on them do. Making innocent people suffer loss of rights because of one persons wrong, is not responsibility either.
You're always so kind and patient with me ToomuchStuff. I don't insult you when you don't make sense to me.
Killing is Killing, whether it's a fast gun or a slower one. I don't care what the hell you call it, if it can kill a lot of people in a very short time, it's too fast.
ToomuchStuff
2-21-18, 10:50am
Better get rid of these then:
https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/world/japan-knife-attack-deaths/index.html
and a poorly designed setup with a pressure cooker:
https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/us/boston-marathon-terror-attack-fast-facts/index.html
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 11:17am
Better get rid of these then:
https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/world/japan-knife-attack-deaths/index.html
and a poorly designed setup with a pressure cooker:
https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/us/boston-marathon-terror-attack-fast-facts/index.html
The argument that we shouldn’t get rid of x because it will do nothing to stop y and z from harming us is not going to gain any traction now. We will get rid of x because it happens to be offensive to our sensitivities right now. Then we will worry about y and z later. Like Governor Kasich of Ohio queried....Are you really going to tell me giving up AR15s is going to seriously impact your second amendment rights? Or something like that. I think antis have a tremendous ability to restrict firearms in this country if they play it right. The pendulum is swinging in their favor.
Better get rid of these then:
https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/world/japan-knife-attack-deaths/index.html
and a poorly designed setup with a pressure cooker:
https://www.cnn.com/2013/06/03/us/boston-marathon-terror-attack-fast-facts/index.html
There have been 8 mass shootings in just, what, 7 weeks this year already. How often has that occurred with a pressure cooker or knife? Of course, there will always be crazy people around.......but things shouldn't be stacked in their favor.
And I imagine if that much destruction was done that often with a pressure cooker.....then we'd start taking names of people who buy them and have background checks, etc.
Don't be silly.
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 1:08pm
We've banned and criminalized at various times alcohol and illegal drugs without much success. Some of us have suggested we change societal norms, using social and peer pressure to influence anti-social behaviors but all that gets is accusations of intolerance, racism, sexism and religious fundamentalism (even if you're an atheist). The only other thing I can think of is to ensure innocent targets have the protection they deserve, and I think that a teacher using a legal weapon to save their lives would be well remembered as the students grow. My level of compassion in wanting them to survive at any cost may seem strange to some, but there it is.
Id like to get Alan to comeback and respond to his idea of arming school teachers. We can agree mass shootings are rare compared to the school days logged without incident. The CDC reports that roughly 2000 high school age students committed suicide in a years time. As an armed teacher would you be prepared to shoot and kill a student who brought a facsimile handgun to school and pulled it out in the middle of class? He’s standing in the middle of class with what looks like a Glock 19 and you are armed. Within seconds you have to discharge at least a round into him without harming other students. If you accomplish this, then you find out he has a dummy gun and just wanted to die.
Incidents like this will happen. In fact, there will be incidents where teachers will be making split second decisions of shoot don’t shoot and I’m not sure any teacher wants that responsibility or should have to bear that responsibility.
Now whta kind of liability do the tax payers of that school district incur?
flowerseverywhere
2-21-18, 1:16pm
Yes we have more gun violence then other countries, because we have more guns. Other countries have more knife violence, car violence, bomb making, etc. because of access. We even have that stuff here, and yet we are not blaming knives, alcohol, cars or other inanimate objects.
What are you basing this on?
Europe has a Homicide rate of 3 per 100,000 inhabitants. The America’s are over 16. The US is almost 5.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Id like to get Alan to comeback and respond to his idea of arming school teachers. We can agree mass shootings are rare compared to the school days logged without incident. The CDC reports that roughly 2000 high school age students committed suicide in a years time. As an armed teacher would you be prepared to shoot and kill a student who brought a facsimile handgun to school and pulled it out in the middle of class? He’s standing in the middle of class with what looks like a Glock 19 and you are armed. Within seconds you have to discharge at least a round into him without harming other students. If you accomplish this, then you find out he has a dummy gun and just wanted to die.
Incidents like this will happen. In fact, there will be incidents where teachers will be making split second decisions of shoot don’t shoot and I’m not sure any teacher wants that responsibility or should have to bear that responsibility.
Now whta kind of liability do the tax payers of that school district incur?
I'm happy to discuss just about any subject at any time although I'd have to first correct your initial presumption that I want to arm teachers. The fact is I'd like to de-criminalize the possession of legal weapons at schools, thus allowing responsible teachers to be armed if they so desired. (As an aside, my wife works in the Autism unit for the local elementary school, would you believe that every teacher in that unit possesses a concealed carry permit. Weird huh?)
Of course there are always fears of liability and fear of doing the wrong thing, but in your example I'd have to weigh the risks of being played by some suicidal kid with the possibility that the kid intended to take out the class. There is no good choice there, but one is better than the other. Liability be damned.
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 1:50pm
I'm happy to discuss just about any subject at any time although I'd have to first correct your initial presumption that I want to arm teachers. The fact is I'd like to de-criminalize the possession of legal weapons at schools, thus allowing responsible teachers to be armed if they so desired. (As an aside, my wife works in the Autism unit for the local elementary school, would you believe that every teacher in that unit possesses a concealed carry permit. Weird huh?)
Of course there are always fears of liability and fear of doing the wrong thing, but in your example I'd have to weigh the risks of being played by some suicidal kid with the possibility that the kid intended to take out the class. There is no good choice there, but one is better than the other. Liability be damned.
Alan you either have a higher level of tolerance for unintended consequences than I do or more confidence in the average concealed carry permitee. Given that obtaining a concealed carry permit is easier than obtaining a drivers license....in my county....do you have a pulse? And you’re not a felon are you? Bam , go forth and carry!
You don’t have to demonstrate any knowledge of the firearm, any safety IQ, no competency in placing rounds in their intended location, no demonstration of knowledge of basic justification and legal issues. Just Bam...go forth and carry.
I see #studentslivesmatter in our future.
Now if you are going to conduct training for teachers....who trains,how much training who pays for the training? And finally I’ll say this. My academy trained police officers for 21 weeks. Accidental and negligent discharges were not uncommon. In one training academy, an instructor took out a handgun he thought was unloaded and discharged it with the round killing a student Trooper. One such incident in school would prove the folly of that strategy......and we have 15 million school student k-12 at any one time.
Williamsmith, I can see that you're heavily invested in the belief that only law enforcement personnel should be trusted with the burden of protection. I was too years ago but am no longer sure of that.
The fact is that we have developed a violent culture and every single person deserves the right and opportunity to protect themselves and those under their charge, as well as those who would rather relinquish that responsibility to others. I can't in good conscience stand in their way.
flowerseverywhere
2-21-18, 3:15pm
Maybe it’s a staged conspiracy by Trump haters
https://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2018/02/20/and-they-say-its-not-political/amp/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/donald-trump-jr-likes-conspiracy-theory-about-florida-shooting-survivors-ex-fbi-dad
flowerseverywhere
2-21-18, 3:17pm
And don't Forget, Twitter is out to silence the right
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-43144717
watch out. House to house gun confiscation is next.
Williamsmith, I can see that you're heavily invested in the belief that only law enforcement personnel should be trusted with the burden of protection. I was too years ago but am no longer sure of that.
The fact is that we have developed a violent culture and every single person deserves the right and opportunity to protect themselves and those under their charge, as well as those who would rather relinquish that responsibility to others. I can't in good conscience stand in their way.
Actually, the rate of violent crime in this country has been dropping steadily for years. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
Actually, the rate of violent crime in this country has been dropping steadily for years. http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/30/5-facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/
That's true, but it doesn't mean violence doesn't exist. The residents of St. Louis and Baltimore and Chicago and Detroit and Houston and Philadelphia and New York City still deserve the ability to protect themselves, even if some of their local governments disagree. And, everybody else in every other part of the world deserves the same right to protect themselves from those rare individuals who are determined to immortalize themselves by killing or injuring as many people as possible in one planned event. At least I think so, YMMV.
I agree with the "well-regulated militia" part of the second amendment. I believe in training and licensing for owners of handguns and rifles. I see no reason people not actively part of the police or military should own military-style weapons. I don't recall a time when I felt it was necessary to arm myself--even when I had a stalker. The thought never crossed my mind.
Williamsmith
2-21-18, 5:57pm
I agree with the "well-regulated militia" part of the second amendment. I believe in training and licensing for owners of handguns and rifles. I see no reason people not actively part of the police or military should own military-style weapons. I don't recall a time when I felt it was necessary to arm myself--even when I had a stalker. The thought never crossed my mind.
Im quite comfortable arguing that the “well regulated militia” actually refers to the citizenship and not the police (modern day policing did not exist until the turn of the 20th century) nor the military....we have had a separate military force since day one. The farmers and artisans of revolutionary America were required to maintain and have ready a rifle , a specific amount of ammunition and based on your ability possibly more for the defense of the state. Participation was even mandatory based on age.
THe problem is with our professional military ...the founding fathers disagreed about the necessity for a standing army...and our paid law enforcement, training our militia has fallen by the wayside and in fact much Of the citizenry is afraid of firearms, many are untrained and a few are down right dangerous with them.
I dont know where the compromise is but I know that restricting it to military and the police is not the answer. Not in this country.
ToomuchStuff
2-22-18, 1:45am
Are you really going to tell me giving up AR15s is going to seriously impact your second amendment rights?
Yes, it infringes and limits my pursuit of happiness.
There have been 8 mass shootings in just, what, 7 weeks this year already. How often has that occurred with a pressure cooker or knife? Of course, there will always be crazy people around.......but things shouldn't be stacked in their favor.
Don't be silly.
Not being silly, having the ability to defend oneself.
What are you basing this on?
Europe has a Homicide rate of 3 per 100,000 inhabitants. The America’s are over 16. The US is almost 5.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Basing on gun violence goes up with access to guns. Without access to guns, crazy people will find other means to attack others. Without those same guns to defend and deter those actions, more people look like sheep.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 7:44am
So President Trump has apparently endorsed arming teachers as a major component to solving the mass shooting incidents. While I won’t condemn it as the worst response to the problem, I’ll hold to my opinion that it’s a bad idea. It’s like allowing the fox to enter the hen house before you kill it. In this case, there is no necessity to first allow the shooter into the school and then respond.
So why do we have armed security outside fenced in facilities? Why not just arm all employees? Why does the military bother to have outside perimeters? Why not just require all enlisted members be armed at all times? The cook can wear a shoulder holster while he mashes potatoes.
Now why should the same people who argue against the federal government involvement in schools in the first place now endorse a federal effort to arm teachers. Just based on probabilities on the increased encounters between armed teachers and students - it’s possible that more students will be injured or killed than mass shooters account for now.
If we are going to arm teachers then let’s make the unintended, accidental and negligent discharge of their weapon an immediate termination of employment and an entry on a lifetime ban from teaching. Sort of a teachers no fly list.
And should they go to the bathroom and leave their firearm on the tank where a child could find it.....same result. That has happened here in Pennsylvania.
I worked with many fine police officers, who were very diligent in their training and trustworthy who had unintended discharges unloading, loading and handling their firearm. Right in the police station and out in public. It’s an expected occurrence strictly due to probabilities in handling firearms. So we are going to put students in direct proximity to firearms on a daily basis because......we want to protect them from firearms.
As a teacher armed ....how much liability insurance is enough to have if god forbid you are involved in a fatal or life threatening shooting of an innocent bystander or student?
Arming teachers attempts to solve one problem but causes many others. I’m surprised our President doesn’t have better counsel than that.
I'm so proud of these young people taking a stand. Finally. I wasn't sure the next generation cared about much, but I'm very encouraged!
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 8:12am
I haven’t read all of this.
and coming back to this thread reaffirmed for me that I should stay out of it.
but I need to put this out there in case hearing it makes any difference at all.
i told dh last night that the day they arm teachers, I quit. Dh - who owns three fire arms and has taught all three of our children to use them safely btw - said “they aren’t going to require you to have a gun. They are just going to LET you have a gun.” So, amended my statement. The day they let one of my coworkers bring a gun into my building. I quit. That does not make me feel safer. It makes me feel less safe. The odds of one of my students being harmed by a gun belonging to a teacher seem astronomically higher than the odds of a shooter entering our school. I have enough to worry about with fish and peanuts and tree nuts. (I know where to get an epipen and I know how to use it!)
i understand the “guns don’t kill people” argument. In fact, I agree with it. Mostly, Boys kill people. With guns. So could we maybe take the guns away from boys? (I use “boys” deliberately, although in a legal sense I mean “young men and also as collateral damage women under oh, 25 or 30” because I would like to see a little impulse control and mature reasoning ability in people with deadly weapons!) Dh asked me about military - exempt them. I’m fine with that. As long as they are not under any disciplinary action or dishonorable discharge or mental disability discharge. I think we could compromise on some hunting related regulations too.
TooMuchStuff’s unfettered pursuit of happiness appears to be interfering with mine. Also with the rights of others to life. You know “LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?” It would make me happy to go barefoot all summer, but the health department makes me wear shoes in restaurants for reasons I don’t really understand.
What the father proposed in the meeting between 45 and the Florida students and parents was to have a few select teachers trained in firearm safety and use as well as how to react in a crisis situation. And the guns would be kept under lock and key. It doesn't make it a good idea, but is different from the perception of random teachers with guns inn shoulder harnesses or without training.
Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 9:10am
How about if we put fire extinguishers in classrooms? I could definitely spray an assailant with a fire extinguisher. I could also grab it during an actual fire in case we get trapped. I have two fire cadets in one of my classes.
iris lilies
2-22-18, 9:24am
CL, sure, I would be happy if “they” take away guns from the boyz in my ‘hood. Would make for more peace and safety around here.
oh wait, these are already illegal. Our local courts are clogged with gun cases of
1) guns illegally obtained and possessed
2) crimes made more serious by possessing a gun
3) felons possessing guns
DH sat on grand jury for three months and by far the majority were guns and drug cases. Those are illegal yet common in a certain demographic.
I cant understand why those who think making something illegal stops it. Nice fantasy.
How about if we put fire extinguishers in classrooms? I could definitely spray an assailant with a fire extinguisher. That wouldn't be my first choice, but a dry chemical fire extinguisher can make a good non-lethal weapon. It would definitely upset the assailant's OODA Loop and give others time and opportunity to attempt to disarm and detain, but you'd better check with Williamsmith about the liability associated with breaking the seal or the long term effects of the assailant inhaling the chemicals. ;)
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 9:28am
What the father proposed in the meeting between 45 and the Florida students and parents was to have a few select teachers trained in firearm safety and use as well as how to react in a crisis situation. And the guns would be kept under lock and key. It doesn't make it a good idea, but is different from the perception of random teachers with guns inn shoulder harnesses or without training.
Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.
If we are going to intentionally place guns within the school with a few select trained persons...I want them to be concerned about security, safety, vigilance, and I don’t want their guns kept under lock and key. That would be a useless strategy. An incident like that needs to be attacked immediately. There is no time for retrieving weapons from a locker or safe and loading.
I also want that to be their only priority. I don’t want them teaching and trying to divide their attention between being a mentor and being a first responder to an attack. I want them to be like an Air Marshal on an airplane. I don’t expect Air Marshals to be piloting. I want the pilot to be piloting. So I don’t want teachers carrying period. I want someone who’s job is strictly as an enforcer Of Security.
I am not discouraged about gun legislation. I think it is like a snowball rolling down hill gaining momentum. There is only one thing standing between this country’s fascination with guns, murder, death and bloodshed and serious gun restrictions. That’s is ....the frequency with which children of influential people are mowed down by firearms. What do you think the response would be if another mass shooting at a school would happen this afternoon? The swiftness Of enacting new gun legislation is directly proportional to the frequency of these incidents.
When you have the POTUS sitting listening to grieving parents, siblings and friends about the gun murder of their loved one in school setting.....and he responds by advancing the logic that more guns will make things better. I mean, how can an intelligent person not know that those grieving people don’t want to hear about more guns....,they want to hear about less guns!
Put Marshalls in the school but harden the access. My sons girlfriend is a diabetic with a sensitive pump on her. She has to be patted down, searched, unclothed, questioned and submit to a gunpowder swab of her hands just to board an airplane. But a kid can take a backpack into school with a Ruger 10/22 takedwn and magazines of ammo without anyone even glancing up. This is so we can say our right to carry shall not be infringed? Or is it that we don’t have our priorities in the right place.....meaning our money.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 9:34am
That wouldn't be my first choice, but a dry chemical fire extinguisher can make a good non-lethal weapon. It would definitely upset the assailant's OODA Loop and give others time and opportunity to attempt to disarm and detain, but you'd better check with Williamsmith about the liability associated with breaking the seal or the long term effects of the assailant inhaling the chemicals. ;)
Alan, that’s the kind of snarky attitude that puts people off and deadens any kind of logical debate. I suspect that you have imagined yourself as a teacher, armed and ready to step up to the plate. You might be capable of pulling it off. That doesn’t make it a good idea for a national effort to arm teachers. If you can convince me with logic and a factual presentation rather than shuck and jive....I’m listening.
Don't take offense Williamsmith, I realize that your concerns for liability are real and will probably be the one element which prevents schools from allowing teachers the same opportunity to defend themselves and their charges in the school environment that they enjoy outside the school. I just happen to believe that after 45 years of experience in the LE/Executive Protection/Security fields, outsourcing that liability won't necessarily create a better outcome. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
I'm not sure that there is a "national effort to arm teachers" although I am aware of the popular notion that those teachers who are willing and able should not have their right to effectively defend themselves stripped away the moment they enter school property. If we're going to argue, we should frame our positions properly, don't you think?
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 10:16am
Our society has a gun culture woven into our it's fabric and is based more on paranoia than logic. I don't see much hope for any significant gun control legislation. The violence on TV and computer games has romanticized our villain and hero roles based on guns and shootings. That would be the starting point for change if I were in charge.
this may be true, but far before any media people have been very violent. In particular males. A hobby of mine is reading history. Read about the Roman or Mongolian empire or the history of the British archers and the story is the same.
Men in charge decide they want more wealth and power. Groups of armed men take up the weapons of the time and invade, kill citizens except those that are useful for sex or labor slaves. Peripherally the weapons of the time are used by citizens to intimidate and kill.
This era is no different from any other, except perhaps the ability of people to be able to get their hands on better weapons that can kill more people in a shorter period of time.
The root of the problem in my opinion, is an unfulfillable need for power, attention and money as opposed to valuing life. More power, more money, more fame with no regards of whom has to suffer along the way. But in this case white US born men in particular are mass murdering their peers and innocents using legally obtained weapons.
It is truly insane when you think about it.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 10:54am
Strictly speaking Alan, how is the terms of being a teacher not being armed any different than the terms of a football player not being permitted to protest during the anthem? Both are having their constitutional rights restricted. Both have the option to seek employment elsewhere. There are schools that permit teachers to be armed.
Strictly speaking Alan, how is the terms of being a teacher not being armed any different than the terms of a football player not being permitted to protest during the anthem? Both are having their constitutional rights restricted. Both have the option to seek employment elsewhere. There are schools that permit teachers to be armed.
While they're an apples and oranges kind of comparison in the end they both fall under a conditions of employment scenario with the exception that we haven't criminalized anthem protests.
Just out of curiosity, can you tell me if there's ever been a school shooting at one of the schools where teachers are permitted to be armed?
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 11:30am
While they're an apples and oranges kind of comparison in the end they both fall under a conditions of employment scenario with the exception that we haven't criminalized anthem protests.
Just out of curiosity, can you tell me if there's ever been a school shooting at one of the schools where teachers are permitted to be armed?
An excellent question. One which we can both research. But I will hazard to guess that if there hasn’t been....it is only a matter of time. The length or brevity of that period will be directly proportional to the number of armed teachers that are deployed. And I am sure there will be cases where a teacher becomes a hero and stops an attack. My concern is the risk/benefit ratio for the types of incidents that an armed teacher introduces to the school environment.
I am aware of close calls. When an elementary student finds an unattended gun in a school bathroom left behind by a concealed carrying teacher.....theres a problem.
So if certain teachers have guns, who takes care of their students? And when the police rush in, will they think the teacher is the shooter? And if they have some sort of badge.......how long will it take for a person set on killing to fake a badge?
I am aware of close calls. When an elementary student finds an unattended gun in a school bathroom left behind by a concealed carrying teacher.....theres a problem.
I have some experience with that particular problem, thankfully I didn't get far before realizing my mistake.
There was at least one armed guard at the school in Florida. It is reported he didn't "encounter" the shooter.
this may be true, but far before any media people have been very violent. In particular males. A hobby of mine is reading history. Read about the Roman or Mongolian empire or the history of the British archers and the story is the same.
Men in charge decide they want more wealth and power. Groups of armed men take up the weapons of the time and invade, kill citizens except those that are useful for sex or labor slaves. Peripherally the weapons of the time are used by citizens to intimidate and kill.
This era is no different from any other, except perhaps the ability of people to be able to get their hands on better weapons that can kill more people in a shorter period of time.
The root of the problem in my opinion, is an unfulfillable need for power, attention and money as opposed to valuing life. More power, more money, more fame with no regards of whom has to suffer along the way. But in this case white US born men in particular are mass murdering their peers and innocents using legally obtained weapons.
I think there is some basic truth to your opinions, perhaps linked all the way back to our genetic propensity for the survival of the fittest and the role of the male to assure safety and protection. I do think there is a significant difference between wars over territory or wealth, and our mass shootings. Mass shootings seem to be more related to insecurity, revenge and mental instability. It is all pretty insane though.
I am one that would quit rather than carry a gun, I think that should be left to people trained and who have that as their primary job. Just this morning in before school care I had a child pick up my phone and try to call 911! Of course I would not have a gun on the table, however it is hard to keep things both secure and accessible in a classroom.
I am just super careful about who enters the building after school, there are workers who are not with our district coming in and I asked for them to check in and wear visitor badges. We did not let one in automatically last night, I had another worker come see if they knew him before I opened the door.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 11:54am
Here’s one Alan.....School teacher in Utah negligent discharge of firearm in bathroom. Shot the toilet, got arrested and fired.
http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=1787604&itype=CMSID
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 12:03pm
Here’s another: a teacher who also was an active police officer and a combat veteran was carrying concealed in his school when somehow he had an “accidental” discharge while “cleaning” his firearm. First ridiculous to be “cleaning” his gun in the school. Second, how can you be more trained than that teacher was?
https://www.ohio.com/akron/news/politics/ohio-house-excuses-schools-teachers-for-gun-accidents
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 12:10pm
Or....An instructor at Idaho State University unintentionally shot herself in a chemistry classroom.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/idaho-state-university-teacher-accidentally-shoots-self-in-class/
mschrisgo2
2-22-18, 12:33pm
if we confine the discussion to School Shootings, I think there are a number of things that, working together, could make the schools much safer: (really) secure campuses, ban violent video games and movies for children, re-cultivate respect for Life and authority at least in our children, get (real) mental health and counseling services into every school.
It is my firm belief that unless there is a concerted effort to bring many of the issues together, none will work. It is a complex issue and requires a complex solution.
As many have pointed out, Ronald Reagan was surrounded by (one assumes) highly trained Secret Service agents when he was almost assassinated. I did read about a church security guard taking out a shooter once, so I suppose it's possible.
Japan is rife with violent video games; it also has stringent rules for owning guns, and almost no gun deaths.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 1:22pm
Japan is rife with violent video games; it also has stringent rules for owning guns, and almost no gun deaths.
yes, but it is far more convenient to blame media violence, which incidentally numerous players and watchers do not translate into murdering someone. Anything but the insane access to guns by even the mentally ill
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 1:23pm
I think there is some basic truth to your opinions, perhaps linked all the way back to our genetic propensity for the survival of the fittest and the role of the male to assure safety and protection. I do think there is a significant difference between wars over territory or wealth, and our mass shootings. Mass shootings seem to be more related to insecurity, revenge and mental instability. It is all pretty insane though.
yes, who knows why they get to the point that they actually carry these horrific crimes out. Access to firearms so easily does not help.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 1:27pm
if we confine the discussion to School Shootings, I think there are a number of things that, working together, could make the schools much safer: (really) secure campuses, ban violent video games and movies for children, re-cultivate respect for Life and authority at least in our children, get (real) mental health and counseling services into every school.
It is my firm belief that unless there is a concerted effort to bring many of the issues together, none will work. It is a complex issue and requires a complex solution.
children have been witnesses to violence throughout history. Hangings and burnings at the stake were hugely popular entertainments. Children used to routinely be beat and women too. Spare the rod and spoil the child. Some school districts today allow paddling. Hazing is enormously popular in college fraternities. There will always be violence. Banning movies and video games without banning guns seems misguided, but that is just my opinion.
As as long as we have a president who ridicules people, and calls names and bullies those who do not go along with what he says, and grown ups defend his behavior, respect will not return to our society.
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 2:04pm
Most mentally ill people who harm someone with a gun are depressed and harm themselves.
we connect mass shootings with mental illness because we assume that anyone who could do such a thing must be mentally ill. Not because these people previously met the criteria for a diagnosed mental illness. It is circular reasoning.
The terms “evil” or “socially maladjusted” might serve as well.
ApatheticNoMore
2-22-18, 4:16pm
Most mentally ill people who harm someone with a gun are depressed and harm themselves.
we connect mass shootings with mental illness because we assume that anyone who could do such a thing must be mentally ill. Not because these people previously met the criteria for a diagnosed mental illness. It is circular reasoning.
The terms “evil” or “socially maladjusted” might serve as well.
+1 and then while we call any random killer "mentally ill" we pretend we aren't stigmatizing mental illness. Oh yes we are. Btw I don't have a mental illness diagnosis, but it's a civil rights movement and those are the arguments.
if we confine the discussion to School Shootings, I think there are a number of things that, working together, could make the schools much safer: (really) secure campuses, ban violent video games and movies for children, re-cultivate respect for Life and authority at least in our children, get (real) mental health and counseling services into every school.
It is my firm belief that unless there is a concerted effort to bring many of the issues together, none will work. It is a complex issue and requires a complex solution.
I think you're right.
This problem strikes me as one you chip away at rather than solve in one big dramatic burst. No tearful Children's Crusade will melt the icy hearts of lawmakers, causing guns to disappear in one grand movie montage. No sophisticated system of abrogating habeas corpus will allow us to detect, detain and disarm the dangerously insane in the style of Minority Report. The NRA could disappear overnight, we could tear up inconvenient sections of the Bill of Rights, we could require small arms training for elementary school teachers certification. It wouldn't matter.
This thing needs to be attacked on a number of fronts long-term. More physically secure schools. A return, perhaps, to the bourgeois cultural values of an era where unhappy middle class kids seldom turned to mass mass murder. Some level of reconsideration of the 1970s mainstreaming trend for certain mentally ill people. Making sure gun owners a are held responsible for making a reasonable effort to secure their weapons. Reviewing our laws (and their enforcement) aimed at reducing the availability of firearms to felons, children or the (demonstrably) mentally ill; while recognizing the burden is on the government to justify limiting citizens' freedoms rather than on the citizens to justify keeping them.
There is no panacea, and we may never be as safe as more docile or highly regulated nations. But with time and work we can perhaps reduce the number of incidents.
So, Trump is proposing that teachers who carry will get Federal bonuses: (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/22/us/politics/trump-guns-school-shootings.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=a-lede-package-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news)
Teachers who were qualified to handle a weapon — Mr. Trump estimated between 10 percent and 40 percent — would receive “a little bit of a bonus,” he said, adding that he would devote federal money to training them.
“I want my schools protected just like I want my banks protected,” the president said.
If I were a teacher, I would be so affronted. Teachers resort to using personal funds from their HUGE paychecks (NOT) for needed supplies, and they never get compensation for that, but now, put them in a target range and all of a sudden they're worthy of a bump in income. Honestly, this is outrageous. As Williamsmith said, let teachers teach. (BTW, I truly appreciate and respect the opinions and debate here of those who have actual law enforcement experience.)
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 6:49pm
I make no bones about it. I am personally dismayed that the President would make arming teachers a cornerstone of his solution to this problem. Furthermore, I think he has received poor counsel regarding the effectiveness of the strategy, the feasibility, and the prudence given the inherent risks involved.
I have heard him brag about how the knowledge that teachers may be armed would serve as a deterrent to an attack. That assumes that a profile of mass youthful murderers includes rational thinking and a will to survive. I don’t find that consistent with the very act itself and the history of the same murderers taking their own life? My experience is that an equal number of similar cowards would consider attacking a school with an armed teacher to be a challenge worthy of martyrdom.
It is unconscionable to pay bonuses to teachers who volunteer to arm themselves. Let the experiment begin. I wonder why Trump insists we need to build a wall on the border but can’t afford a fence and security around our schools.
iris lilies
2-22-18, 7:09pm
Trumps solution to arm teachers is stupid, but little will come of it. It is just hot air. He is also sepctacularly wrong about active shooters drill and well any safety drill. But whatever, must more air.
Of course all right thinking people know that the federal government should stay out of local education. Donald is not a right thinking guy.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 7:31pm
The armed security guard NEVER WENT INTO THE SCHOOL
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/deputy-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html
this is a problem with arming people. You have to have a tremendous amount of courage and conviction to engage an active shooter. This guard stayed outside knowing these kids were being slaughtered. I know some people think they would have the guts to go on, but I can tell you right now, I cannot imagine any amount of training would have gotten me to run into this situation. Maybe highly trained military special forces have the guts. I suspect many average citizens don’t.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 7:33pm
I wonder why Trump insists we need to build a wall on the border but can’t afford a fence and security around our schools.
brilliant.
Arming the teachers is so absurd. First of all, their classrooms are usually far from the main entrance. And foremost........their responsibility is to the students in their class......not running to the gun safe, loading the gun, then leaving their students behind. I'm not surprised Trump mentioned that as his first idea. And I don't think he fooled anyone. It's all so absurd.....and disgusting.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 8:04pm
CathyA, I don’t think the majority of scenarios has the teacher headed for a gun locker. No, the fact is, the teacher will have the gun on their person, in a shoulder holster, in an outside the belt holster on the hip, in an inside the waistband holster on their hip, in a holster in their groin area called appendix carry or on their ankle or on their boot like I saw on the news tonight.
Which reminded me of another reason I object to it. I’d like to ask Alan how he feels about direct supervision? The school board would define how, when and where the firearm will be utilized and stored. In the case I saw, the teacher was teaching science and carrying a Glock 26 in his cowboy boot....Colorado. But the school board would not permit him to have a round chambered so he is carrying it Israel or condition 3.
Sounds like a reasonable thing to most people? Except when an incident occurs and he has to make a split second decision to act, he has to confirm a threat, retrieve his Glock from his boot, remember to rack one in under pressure and hope he doesn’t short stroke the slide. If you are not confident enough to have a round chambered.....you shouldn’t be carrying.
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 8:21pm
Melissa* used hot glue on Helen’s* arm while I was incapacitated by a sneeze. Delilah* took my chair while I was signing an attendance form and I never saw her move. Somebody wants a loaded gun in that room? They are small. They are fast. And there are a lot of them. Heck, when Zach* found out there was a gun in the classroom he would never be able to think about anything else again. You think he’s not going to find out? Have you ever been in a school?
*names changed
If you are not confident enough to have a round chambered.....you shouldn’t be carrying.
Agreed!
If I were a teacher, I would probably just quit my profession rather than have to carry a gun to defend my students. How insulting!! Why don't we have a conversation about why so many young males think that killing other people is a solution to their own perceived inadequacies and injustices? IMO that's not mental illness but a cultural sickness playing out in how we are raising our sons. They are the ones doing the killing in almost all cases. Why?
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 8:40pm
If I were a teacher, I would probably just quit my profession rather than have to carry a gun to defend my students. How insulting!! Why don't we have a conversation about why so many young males think that killing other people is a solution to their own perceived inadequacies and injustices? IMO that's not mental illness but a cultural sickness playing out in how we are raising our sons. They are the ones doing the killing in almost all cases. Why?
It was nice enough outside to walk. My wife loves to walk and just unload the days events. I am a good listener, usually. Her emotional support classroom has thirteen elementary school age kids. Some of them hump each other, they talk about sex acts, they threaten to kill each other, they tell my wife to go f herself. They get absolutely zip, zero, nada education and they disrupt other classrooms and take up inordinate amounts of valuable time for the principle. Their parents.....absolutely prove the theory of the nut not falling too far from the tree. Guess who will be able to purchase a firearm as soon as they are of age and haven’t been convicted of a prohibited offense? Yep. When I mentioned that to my wife.....she understands why I’d like to see her bid out of the classroom.
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 8:41pm
I’m not allowed to use an open coil hot plate!
if you are confident enough to have a loaded gun in a room full of students while attempting to teach them anything, you have vastly underestimated the amount of focus required to actually engage students, the amount of attention required to manage student behavior, and the need to be aware of the security of the gun. You are an IDIOT and I don’t want you in charge of anybody’s children.
yes, that is an incendiary comment. I can not communicate my feelings on the matter clearly and accurately in a less confrontational manner.
as stated, I would quit. As a parent, I would remove my children from the school, and I would fight against compulsory attendance like a wild animal - really, you are going to force parents to confine their children to a room with a loaded gun accessible 180 days of the year? Do you know how much effort pediatricians put into trying to make sure parents don’t keep guns where kids can find them? Because they shoot themselves! And each other. Heck, I would charge the school administration with reckless endangerment.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 8:46pm
I’m not allowed to use an open coil hot plate!
if you are confident enough to have a loaded gun in a room full of students while attempting to teach them anything, you have vastly underestimated the amount of focus required to actually engage students, the amount of attention required to manage student behavior, and the need to be aware of the security of the gun. You are an IDIOT and I don’t want you in charge of anybody’s children.
yes, that is an incendiary comment. I can not communicate my feelings on the matter clearly and accurately in a less confrontational manner.
as stated, I would quit. As a parent, I would remove my children from the school, and I would fight against compulsory attendance like a wild animal - really, you are going to force parents to confine their children to a room with a loaded gun accessible 180 days of the year? Do you know how much effort pediatricians put into trying to make sure parents don’t keep guns where kids can find them? Because they shoot themselves! And each other. Heck, I would charge the school administration with reckless endangerment.
May I upset you further. Most school districts will not divulge to other teachers who is carrying concealed. Yes, as a teacher you will not know which other teacher is carrying. Oh you may have an inkling, based on the bulge you might see or maybe the teacher inadvertently exposes it.
I spent many years carrying a concealed weapon on executive/dignitary protection details where the ability to be inconspicuous and blend into a crowd was an asset. I've carried in restaurants, theaters, sporting events, business meetings, grocery stores, gas stations, office buildings, entertainment venues and anywhere else my principal may have occasion to visit, as well as wherever I may need to stop on my way to and from. I really don't think anyone ever noticed.
flowerseverywhere
2-22-18, 9:08pm
I’m not allowed to use an open coil hot plate!
if you are confident enough to have a loaded gun in a room full of students while attempting to teach them anything, you have vastly underestimated the amount of focus required to actually engage students, the amount of attention required to manage student behavior, and the need to be aware of the security of the gun. You are an IDIOT and I don’t want you in charge of anybody’s children.
yes, that is an incendiary comment. I can not communicate my feelings on the matter clearly and accurately in a less confrontational manner.
as stated, I would quit. As a parent, I would remove my children from the school, and I would fight against compulsory attendance like a wild animal - really, you are going to force parents to confine their children to a room with a loaded gun accessible 180 days of the year? Do you know how much effort pediatricians put into trying to make sure parents don’t keep guns where kids can find them? Because they shoot themselves! And each other. Heck, I would charge the school administration with reckless endangerment.
Wonderful comment spoken from the front line. When I have been in my elementary grandchildren’s classrooms, I am amazed at the amount of effort the teachers are putting in. Plus the love and caring they give. You indeed would have to be extraordinary beyond what most people are capable of to carry out this task safely.
Chicken lady
2-22-18, 9:18pm
I’m pretty sure no one is carrying in my school - they’d be fired instantly if caught. If that policy changed, my school would need a lot of new teachers. I have yet to talk to one who isn’t horrified at the idea. The “teacher most likely to walk directly at the gunman while attempting to engage him in conversation” did agree today that taking the fire extinguisher from next to her door into her room during a lockdown might be a good idea.
I really am going to leave this thread, because i’m realizing that I am pouring all the limited energy that I am recovering into it. I’ve got a student freshly back from a mental hospital as only one example of people who need my attention in school tomorrow, a daughter struggling with harassment at work, another stressed about her senior thesis, and a husband who just got shifted to 12-14 hour work days. Nothing in this thread is going to feed my soul and nothing I say here is likely to change anything that matters to me. Carry on.
Williamsmith
2-22-18, 9:20pm
I spent many years carrying a concealed weapon on executive/dignitary protection details where the ability to be inconspicuous and blend into a crowd was an asset. I've carried in restaurants, theaters, sporting events, business meetings, grocery stores, gas stations, office buildings, entertainment venues and anywhere else my principal may have occasion to visit, as well as wherever I may need to stop on my way to and from. I really don't think anyone ever noticed.
Your level of experience and training is exactly what a school needs to confront a mass shooter. I have doubts about the ability of most school teachers to meet those qualifications. Anything less is unacceptable. You would make an excellent school Marshall. Most teachers make excellent teachers. The rare person who makes both is going to be difficult to find.
And then theres the teachers unions........oh boy.
Chicken Lady- excellently said!
ToomuchStuff
2-23-18, 12:54am
The armed security guard NEVER WENT INTO THE SCHOOL
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/22/deputy-assigned-to-florida-school-never-went-in-during-shooting-sheriff-says.html
this is a problem with arming people. You have to have a tremendous amount of courage and conviction to engage an active shooter. This guard stayed outside knowing these kids were being slaughtered. I know some people think they would have the guts to go on, but I can tell you right now, I cannot imagine any amount of training would have gotten me to run into this situation. Maybe highly trained military special forces have the guts. I suspect many average citizens don’t.
It will be interesting to see if there was a law that required him to enter or if he ends up suing the former employer. The supreme court ruled constitutionally, LEO's have no duty to protect, which is one reason why I expect Alan would argue that having the choice to arm yourself, shouldn't be illegal.
That said, did Trump make an executive order, or is this something that has to go through the process, and is along the lines of "we are going to build this wall", without the financing/congress backing to fund/do this?
I would honestly expect if the Fed's came down with "bonuses" for armed teachers, that that, wouldn't change most teachers views one way or another. If they are antigun, they wouldn't get one, if they believe in their right to carry, they might and I expect that "bonus" money would go towards liability insurance. (sure the school districts don't plan on footing the bills)
I would also expect that a higher percentage of teachers who did carry, either had former military service, or went out and took some training. I do not expect a big push via local taxes for that.
I am sitting here falling asleep typing this. Might be some long work weeks for a while, due to a firing.
I have taken the ALICE training and although who knows what one would do in a crisis, I found it helpful in just thinking through the options available. I hate that kids even need to think about this in a place they go to learn, but that is the sad reality of our current culture.
I participate several times a year in active-shooter training - my agency goes into such things side-by-side with our local law enforcement. I keep body armor, a mass casualty medical kit, a triage kit, and my forcible entry tools handy for when this sort of thing may happen.
Here it is a bit problematic, as our main K-12 school campus has multiple buildings and hundreds of students, and there is likely only a single sheriff on duty who can respond, and his response time may be 30+ minutes. He can likely have backup within 15 minutes. Whereas we can have 20 of my department’s members there within 3-5 minutes, 40 within 10 minutes, and 60-80 of us within 30 minutes.
So do you wait around for the sheriff, when half the department probably has kids inside that school?
Reading up on the Beslan incident is a bit interesting...
mschrisgo2
2-24-18, 3:41am
Some people are missing the point: it is already illegal to take a gun on the campus of a K-12 school.
There are lots more parts of this complex issue that need to be addressed.
Arming teachers with firearms is not a viable solution. Period. End of discussion.
Williamsmith
2-24-18, 7:31am
In bae’s situation, his agency is the best first response. I would suggest a serious sit down with the Sheriff because his resources which he can bring to bear for an incident like this is negligible. The Sheriff has no real way to intervene or confront an attacker who could complete a mission within a ten minute time frame and in most cases would run out of ammo before a deputy could even arrive. You need to have one on duty at the school......and one committed to the obligation to run toward the threat.
But if bae’s members can muster as quickly as he documents above, they ought to be planning to do just that and not wait for law enforcement. Yes, there is federal law prohibiting carrying guns on school property, as far as I know all states have a similar law and school boards have policy. Absent a specific exemption in the code there is a defense to committing a violation of the crimes code if one is seeking to stop a more serious violation from occurring. In this sort of case, anyone who came to the aid of that school would be exempted from prosecution.
I am not against the theory of a teacher with a gun confronting an evil entity with evil intentions. I am convinced those who would carry out this policy would set misguided rules for engagement, carry and cause more problems than solutions. I think a teacher can certainly be part of the solution but I do not think taking a cue from the President is the mechanism by which this happens. Federal leadership is unnecessary ; federal funding is. And federal funding is necessary only because of the way we are taxed. Communities are able to better construct responses to the threat. States need to create a training program addressing security in their public schools. Money needs to be spent on making schools less penetrable.
Williamsmith
2-24-18, 8:22pm
You know instead of arming teachers....I just heard the perfect solution. It would require no additional cost to the taxpayer nor any additional training. We will just let the military teach our kids!
Period. End of discussion.
Well, this is a discussion board, after all;)
ToomuchStuff
2-24-18, 11:32pm
You know instead of arming teachers....I just heard the perfect solution. It would require no additional cost to the taxpayer nor any additional training. We will just let the military teach our kids!
So those of us like me, who were declared 4F when I attempted enlistment, would not be allowed? (as well as no special education students, etc)
Hardcore troublemakers would get sentenced to Marine education school.
Physical fitness levels would go up, discipline would go up, more people in schools would learn how to shoot, etc. etc. etc..
Personally I think we should just let our kids go to school in the capital, the white house, or just about any courthouse in the country. Either that or we should start letting guns into all those places and then see what kind of changes ensue.
flowerseverywhere
2-25-18, 4:41am
How about abolishing the secret service, getting rid of the metal detectors in DC buildings like the senate office building and White House, and getting rid of the snipers on the roofs, and all the federal buildings in the land. We could allow senators, secretaries, aides, cleaning persons etc to carry and they can protect themselves.
flowerseverywhere
2-25-18, 5:01am
I participate several times a year in active-shooter training - my agency goes into such things side-by-side with our local law enforcement. I keep body armor, a mass casualty medical kit, a triage kit, and my forcible entry tools handy for when this sort of thing may happen.
Here it is a bit problematic, as our main K-12 school campus has multiple buildings and hundreds of students, and there is likely only a single sheriff on duty who can respond, and his response time may be 30+ minutes. He can likely have backup within 15 minutes. Whereas we can have 20 of my department’s members there within 3-5 minutes, 40 within 10 minutes, and 60-80 of us within 30 minutes.
So do you wait around for the sheriff, when half the department probably has kids inside that school?
Reading up on the Beslan incident is a bit interesting...
i did not recall the Beslan incident. What a horrible scene that must have been, with cover-ups, fake news, unbelievable suffering of the children and adults and political corruption.
Out of all the posters here, you and Alan seem to have the ability to be able to do exactly what Trump is proposing. I may have missed someone who has extensive experience and training, though who would have the wherewithal to be effective in a situation like this. The large majority of us, no matter what training we had, would be totally unfit to take out a shooter in a classroom. Especially one with the weapon he had, and who may have on defensive protective gear. Even the first law enforcement and the armed guard sheltered outside the school behind cars. And they had years of experience and training. And weapons they were trained to use.
Good guy with a gun story: http://washingtonpress.com/2018/02/24/police-just-shot-wrong-man-church-hostage-situation-texas-watch/
Good guy with a gun story: http://washingtonpress.com/2018/02/24/police-just-shot-wrong-man-church-hostage-situation-texas-watch/
More editorial than story. The lesson I took away from it was if the police train their weapons on you and tell you to drop the gun, you should drop the gun.
More editorial than story. The lesson I took away from it was if the police train their weapons on you and tell you to drop the gun, you should drop the gun.
Agreed.
Agreed.
Some situations transcend ideology.
Williamsmith
2-25-18, 5:54pm
If I may go back a little and pick Alan’s brain ....and anyone else with an opinion. I’m truly interested because it’s apparent this issue is going to back debated in the political arena which could result in action. I know that’s almost unbelievable given our gridlock lately but here goes...
Alan stated, “I'm not sure that there is a "national effort to arm teachers" although I am aware of the popular notion that those teachers who are willing and able should not have their right to effectively defend themselves stripped away the moment they enter school property. If we're going to argue, we should frame our positions properly, don't you think?”
I’d like to focus on this for a minute. I have people I converse with who are very strict 2nd amendment interpretists...and the above statement would ring true with them, but .....
If we authorize these willing and able teachers to carry concealed, why shouldn’t we authorize janitors, secretaries, cafeteria workers, bus drivers, contractors, Coke delivery persons, truck drivers, to also carry concealed?
In Pennsylvania 18 year olds are permitted to openly carry handguns and long rifles on their person. If my son is an 18 year old senior in high school who doesn’t have an activity that precludes him from separating from his handgun or rifle.....why shouldn’t he be permitted to carry one openly in the school. Should any of these willing and able people be “stripped” of their right to effectively defend themselves?
You see where this can be headed right?
You see where this can be headed right?
I see where you're taking it, yes. The answer is to restrict weapons in schools to authorized personnel. That's the way it works in private industry as a condition of employment, let's let federal, state and local government entities do the same thing by eliminating the blanket restriction and criminal charges.
Williamsmith
2-25-18, 6:41pm
Choosing who is authorized and who is not.....sounds like gun control.
Choosing who is authorized and who is not.....sounds like gun control.
Yes it does, but not by the government which can only enforce it's edicts with force. Condition of employment is an agreement between two parties, and restricting everyone to a legal age of perhaps 21 (although the government loaned me the use of one of their M16's at 18, I understand they still do) would keep most students at bay.
Williamsmith
2-25-18, 9:23pm
Bullet proof body blanket for elementary school children. I’m not kidding. What?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bulletproof-blankets-designed-shield-kids-school-shootings-tornadoes-article-1.1823308
Forget school supplies, get your kids a bullet proof vest.
May I add a query to WS's question. By Alan's post I understand that it is recognized that the employer is deciding rights and privileges of its employees that impact the common good. Has industry then been assigned decision=making governing the common good or should it be'government by the people for the people'? BTW, I am not specifying any level of gov't - municipal, state or federal.
By the response of the companies who are withdrawing their support of the NRA, is there an indication that industry is making the decision and advising the NRA to go back to its roots of concern for the common good of responsible oversight of gun use?
May I add a query to WS's question. By Alan's post I understand that it is recognized that the employer is deciding rights and privileges of its employees that impact the common good. Has industry then been assigned decision=making governing the common good or should it be'government by the people for the people'? BTW, I am not specifying any level of gov't - municipal, state or federal.
By the response of the companies who are withdrawing their support of the NRA, is there an indication that industry is making the decision and advising the NRA to go back to its roots of concern for the common good of responsible oversight of gun use?
It's not that an employer is deciding rights and privileges, it's more an expectation that their rights and privileges take precedence on their property, much like if you invite a visitor into your home but advise them that you don't allow smoking inside your residence, leaving them free to either respect your rules or not visit.
I think the companies severing their ties with the NRA are simply capitalizing on the media's fairly successful demonization of that institution. As a nation we seem to have moved past the stage where protecting individual rights while promoting safety are considered admirable attributes.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 8:43am
Alan, are you saying that school districts should be able to establish a right and privilege to have an armed presence in their buildings filled by the employees of the district if that’s what they want? If so, then parents not in favor of that should be able to chose a district that does not have an armed militia doubling as teachers. Isn’t there a problem with comparing school property to business property? Taxpayers are not free to withhold their investment in schools. If a person doesn’t like a businesses activities, they can take their business elsewhere or cash out their investment or terminate their relationship.
Bullet proof body blanket for elementary school children. I’m not kidding. What?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bulletproof-blankets-designed-shield-kids-school-shootings-tornadoes-article-1.1823308
Forget school supplies, get your kids a bullet proof vest.
It would be nice if we had enough money to pay for all the school supplies and good wages for teachers, I really don't understand how we have districts going to 4 day weeks and teachers having second jobs but we are interested in bullet proof vests and blankets. Do people just not have any idea that schools struggle?
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 9:08am
The ugly side of capitalism is that one should never let pass an opportunity to use fear to gin up sales. Imagine you are sending your kid off to school. “Don’t forget you lunch, Mary. And your homework. Oh yeah....your bullet proof blanket!”
That's where we would be homeschooling. We did it before when school got unbearable for one of my kids. Bullet proof blanket--unbearable.
I'm curious if there are any statistics on the proportion of these incidents occurring at private vs. public schools. I could be wrong, but I can't recall of any recent mass shootings at non-public institutions. If that is the case, is there some cultural or structural reason for it? Are parents more willing to make the financial sacrifice involved also watching their kids more closely? Do they recruit a different type of staff? Do they simply exclude the more psychologically damaged students? Are there religious or philosophical values being transmitted that mitigate against such incidents? Are private school families less likely to have easy access to firearms?
People make the choice to send their children to private schools for diverse reasons, but if there are differences that help mitigate against these violent acts, perhaps they could be studied and replicated.
LDAHL, the research on gun violence was banned many years ago. One of the petitions I signed was to change that law. I don't even know what to say about the current law, we have many ideas and we keep passing them around however without some attempt at research I am not sure what we can do except 'thoughts and prayers'. So you could be in trouble for trying to find out.
Just WTF!!
LDAHL, the research on gun violence was banned many years ago. One of the petitions I signed was to change that law. I don't even know what to say about the current law, we have many ideas and we keep passing them around however without some attempt at research I am not sure what we can do except 'thoughts and prayers'. So you could be in trouble for trying to find out.
Just WTF!!
Research isn’t “banned”. The feds aren’t funding it. You won’t “be in trouble” for conducting studies funded by other sources. The FBI won’t swoop down on you for researching why there are fewer massacres at Saint Addlepate’s Parish School or Privilege Preparatory Academy.
So maybe you won't be swooped in on, however the Dickey amendment is still current
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)
So maybe you won't be swooped in on, however the Dickey amendment is still current
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dickey_Amendment_(1996)
Congress not providing CDC with money to research guns is a far cry from "banning research". Not everything needs to happen by government fiat.
iris lilies
2-26-18, 2:55pm
Congress not providing CDC with money to research guns is a far cry from "banning research". Not everything needs to happen by government fiat.
Only when you look to Nanny to solve all of your problems, a sad place to be.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 3:26pm
It seems to me that the CDC is probably not fulfilling its government mandate to promote the public welfare and health when it does not do any research into the causes and contributing factors of gun violence as well as the various factors that could be known and assimilated into a national attempt at curbing gun violence.
The stripping of several million dollars from the budget of the CDC for this purpose and the failure of the federal government to encourage more than just 18 states to furnish accurate statistics on homicides, suicide and accidental gun deaths is directly related to the influence the NRA and similar lobbyist groups have on politicians who want to keep their job over actually doing something proactive to stop the deaths of Americans by gun violence.
Its a direct case of having a tool available to address our mass murder and everyday murder problems but leaving it shelved out of political expediency. It basically sucks.
I suppose the counter argument might be that a government that was instituted to protect a citizens rights should not fund study's designed to justify the diminishment or cancellation of one or more of those rights.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 6:30pm
I suppose the counter argument might be that a government that was instituted to protect a citizens rights should not fund study's designed to justify the diminishment or cancellation of one or more of those rights.
Wouldn’t that be assuming a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade to use an arm of the government to push an addenda rather than honest research guiding recommendations? Well duh?
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 6:34pm
If we are going to repeal federal and state laws establishing gun free zones.....shouldn’t we provide the teachers with the real tools to take on an attacker? Expecting a teacher to run toward the threat armed with only a concealed carry pistol would ensure he was terribly outgunned. Let’s provide them with a select fire pistol capable of automatic fire and burst fire and access to flash bang grenades to disorient an attacker. Perhaps a ballistic shield in the corner of the room with which he can protect himself and bullet proof blankets for the kids to hide under. That’s a start.
Wouldn’t that be assuming a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade to use an arm of the government to push an addenda rather than honest research guiding recommendations? Well duh?
The Dickey Amendment was introduced during the Clinton Administration during an era where President Clinton was quoted saying things like "Only the police should have handguns" and "We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary citizens". I don't think a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade is much of a stretch.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 6:48pm
The Dickey Amendment was introduced during the Clinton Administration during an era where President Clinton was quoted saying things like "Only the police should have handguns" and "We can't be fixated on our desire to preserve the rights of ordinary citizens". I don't think a nefarious political ideologically driven crusade is much of a stretch.
Its been 17 years since Clinton served his last day as President. Do you think the coast is clear yet?
Its been 17 years since Clinton served his last day as President. Do you think the coast is clear yet?Nope
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 6:51pm
Nope
Ah, now we get to the crux of the problem.....nobody can be trusted!
Ah, now we get to the crux of the problem.....nobody can be trusted!
Sure you can, when anyone tells you they'd like to diminish one or more of your rights, I trust them to follow though by any means at their disposal.
flowerseverywhere
2-26-18, 7:14pm
Sure you can, when anyone tells you they'd like to diminish one or more of your rights, I trust them to follow though by any means at their disposal.
does legal abortion count? Or only rights you agree with.
does legal abortion count? Or only rights you agree with.I hate it when abortion comes up since the fetus is never considered to be a person. Plus, the "right" to abortion was never enshrined into the founding documents of this nation.
If you really want to know, I could go along with the "right" to abort a child if it was limited to a very specific time period, perhaps up to the first trimester because I'm not sure when that fetus becomes a separate person, but when advocates refuse to acknowledge the life they're taking at any stage of the pregnancy, I can't support them and never will. It's not that i don't agree with the mothers "right", I just think it's cancelled by her child's "rights".
Thanks for asking.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 7:27pm
It’s kind of funny Alan, all this chest beating about the second amendment. And what has all these firearms done for us as citizens. We’ve basically had our first and fourth amendment rights completely stripped from us without anyone so much as picking up an AR15 to protest. I challenge every gun toting American......explain to me how your gun has come in handy to beat back the oppression of the government. It hasn’t. Because the oppression isn’t defined by lead projectiles anymore. We are too busy slaughtering each other with semiautos to notice just how oppressed we are. The last people that tried to lift the boot was the Bundys and they got their ass handed to them. As long as they can sell weapon systems overseas and as long as Wayne of the NRA can make 5 million in salary a year.....All is well.
BTW, you haven’t answered.....why are we handicapping our teachers suggesting that they merely be allowed to arm themselves with a token pistol. Let’s give them some really military weapons with which to take out the terrorist. Otherwise, we are exercising our own little progressive gun control system, aren’t we?
BTW, you haven’t answered.....why are we handicapping our teachers suggesting that they merely be allowed to arm themselves with a token pistol. Let’s give them some really military weapons with which to take out the terrorist. Otherwise, we are exercising our own little progressive gun control system, aren’t we?I've never suggested we should limit anyone's ability to effectively defend themselves. You must be thinking of someone else.
Williamsmith
2-26-18, 7:44pm
I've never suggested we should limit anyone's ability to effectively defend themselves. You must be thinking of someone else.
Why shouldn’t any student be able to test out of a prohibition to carry also? We could teach the necessary skills and have every one in the class armed by the end of the first semester.
Why shouldn’t any student be able to test out of a prohibition to carry also? We could teach the necessary skills and have every one in the class armed by the end of the first semester.We used to do just that. It hasn't been that long ago that some schools taught marksmanship and gun safety with students own weapons. Personally, I'm comfortable with restricting the ownership of weapons to the age of consent, mainly because we don't do a very good job of teaching responsibility anymore. Maybe I'm just old fashioned.
flowerseverywhere
2-26-18, 8:03pm
I hate it when abortion comes up since the fetus is never considered to be a person. Plus, the "right" to abortion was never enshrined into the founding documents of this nation.
If you really want to know, I could go along with the "right" to abort a child if it was limited to a very specific time period, perhaps up to the first trimester because I'm not sure when that fetus becomes a separate person, but when advocates refuse to acknowledge the life they're taking at any stage of the pregnancy, I can't support them and never will. It's not that i don't agree with the mothers "right", I just think it's cancelled by her child's "rights".
Thanks for asking.
interesting answer for a conservative. I wish there was never an abortion, but if the Supreme Court decides abortion is legal, or mentally people have a right to gun ownership or a gay young man has the right to marry his male partner, who am I to Say they cannot. The thing about our founding documents though is they were written in a different time. But women have sought abortions whether legal or not since the beginning of time. Just like gun control. Could the founding fathers ever have envisioned AR15’s being sold at big box store and paid for with credit cards? Or young men entering a school full of unarmed children and shooting as many as they can? All of it was totally not in their mind when our young nation was founded. The country is totally different now, for better and for worse.
interesting answer for a conservative. I wish there was never an abortion, but if the Supreme Court decides abortion is legal, or mentally people have a right to gun ownership or a gay young man has the right to marry his male partner, who am I to Say they cannot. In the abortion issue, the Supreme Court simply stated that a woman's right to privacy regarding abortion must be balanced with the potentiality of life thereby eliminating a blanket prohibition. It seems we're getting farther and farther away from the balance required and you'd be hard pressed to have a politician or liberal admit that it's a necessary component. That's why we need more conservatives, to remind them. ;)
In the abortion issue, the Supreme Court simply stated that a woman's right to privacy regarding abortion must be balanced with the potentiality of life thereby eliminating a blanket prohibition. It seems we're getting farther and farther away from the balance required and you'd be hard pressed to have a politician or liberal admit that it's a necessary component. That's why we need more conservatives, to remind them. ;)
So that's why states like texas require medically unnecessary things like ultrasounds and surgery level abortion facilities even thought they admit that the less fancy facilities in NM are perfectly sufficient? To protect the woman's right to privacy?
Personally I don't usually wade into the abortion issue because as a man, and even moreso, a middle aged gay man, it's not my life that will be forever influenced by an unintended pregnancy. I trust the woman making the decision to have a better idea than I do of what she needs to do. I might have a different view if the right to life crowd was concerned about life beyond birth, but from what I witness, they don't. If they did CHIP wouldn't have been something held hostage until the government shutdown, not to mention the idiocy currently going on around SNAP. It used to be that people on the left wanted to micromanage the lives of poor people. Now the right has taken that to a whole new level.
Williamsmith
2-27-18, 12:49am
Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.
https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY
Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.
https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY
I'm good with that and apologize for contributing to the distraction. this thread has been far better than I ever expected in terms of keeping kids alive. I try not to get enticed by shiny bobbles, but sometimes I just can't help myself.
flowerseverywhere
2-27-18, 6:21am
Could we keep the topic to one type of child mass murder at a time, please? This thread is about killing kids with AR15s. Start another thread if you want to discuss killing kids in their mothers womb.
https://youtu.be/hXn9ZKPx6CY
no. Too bad if you donT like it. This is a discussion board and a discussion is underway. am trying to understand positions which I consider conflicting and confusing. I have learned so much by questioning people here on this forum. My friends are all well educated liberal women and sometimes getting an opposing view, especially in context of rights as a US Citizen is timely. Skip over or ignore comments you don’t like. These pages of comments have really brought forward views that I never would have considered because normal people taking to other normal people, without some news media with an agenda butting in, is very difficult to find. We are incredibly lucky to be able to get unfiltered. opinions from people with a totally different viewpoint from ours
But getting back back to the main topic, the shooting I have am interesting story. Yesterday a bunch of protestors went to Tallahassee to protest our very liberal gun laws. They were for a better background check system and a better reporting system (this guy Cruz was reported over and over to the local police and FBI). They want to raise the age to buy such weapons. Keeping guns out of people who like this guy, had public profiles saying he was going to shoot up the school. There was no mention of banning guns for law abiding citizens or taking them away.
you should see the editorial comments in the paper following a brief story about the protesters, of which many were retired teachers, having spent their lives in a classroom. The comments were Absolutely skewering them. Calling them pawns of Hillary and Soros, saying they were uninformed and more guns would have helped. Calling them pathetic losers, wussies, and some comments that teetered on being actual threats of violence. Saying someone with a small pistol could have easily taken out the shooter. If that were so the resource officer and first police on the scene would have rushed in. Comments full of hate. As soon as the shooting La Pierre was saying anyone calling for any type of gun control wants to abolish the second amendment. That is untrue of most people. They just want to stop the ridiculous madness.
iris lilies
2-27-18, 8:20am
Flowers, I agree, discussions that meander into topics other than the main one are often useful. And it is good that we have thoughtful people on both side of the aisle for these discussions.
Williamsmith
2-27-18, 8:33am
Satire people..........satire.
iris lilies
2-27-18, 8:52am
Satire people..........satire.
ok, that too!
flowerseverywhere
2-27-18, 11:42am
Satire people..........satire.
and here I thought I had a moment of temporary insanity. I watched a few minutes of President Bone Spurs draft dodger saying the officers who did not go into the school were disgraceful cowards. And that he would have rushed in without a gun. I think I went crazy.
Teacher Terry
2-27-18, 12:24pm
Wow, after 11 days of a cruise with no news this thread is very interesting. Hearing the Orange One say he would have run in unarmed made me laugh so hard. He probably means he would have made one of his workers do it:)) I agree with you Flowers in so much of what you have said. A few years ago a local teacher here intervened without a weapon and of course he died. That is a true hero. BTW Trump now wants to eliminate aid for low income people to heat their homes many of which are seniors. I think that is one way to save $ is to freeze the seniors to death right before you cut Medicare and SS. Whenever, we take a cruise we decide to be ignorant of the news and never turn on the TV. It makes for a relaxing vacation.
iris lilies
2-27-18, 1:58pm
and here I thought I had a moment of temporary insanity. I watched a few minutes of President Bone Spurs draft dodger saying the officers who did not go into the school were disgraceful cowards. And that he would have rushed in without a gun. I think I went crazy.
That would do it to you.
dado potato
2-27-18, 4:44pm
I see that the Governor of Rhode Island, Gina Raimondo, signed an executive order which directs all law enforcement in the state to use "all available legal steps" to remove firearms from people who have shown warning signs, including recently making threats of violence online or in person. The order also launches a campaign to educate the public about signs that could indicate that a person poses a threat.
Governor Raimondo remarked: "The heartbreaking shooting at Parkland has once again proven that if the federal government won't act, states need to do more to prevent the gun violence that has become far too common." She urged the state legislature to take swift action to pass comprehensive legislation on gun safety.
The governments of NY, NJ, MA, RI, DE and CT along with Puerto Rico have formed a new coalition of States for Gun Safety.
Teacher Terry
2-27-18, 6:27pm
That is awesome!
ToomuchStuff
2-28-18, 1:14am
Bullet proof body blanket for elementary school children. I’m not kidding. What?
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/bulletproof-blankets-designed-shield-kids-school-shootings-tornadoes-article-1.1823308
Forget school supplies, get your kids a bullet proof vest.Body armor, backpacks, baseball caps, etc. have all been marketed/sold and then stories written about them (driving both fear and sales) after shootings in the past. It also has driven the opposite craze, with the increase in AR parts, and gun sales (my local gun store sold around 60% of their inventory last week). Shootings drive both groups to spend money, the questions are always who gets the money and what do they do with it.
It’s kind of funny Alan, all this chest beating about the second amendment. And what has all these firearms done for us as citizens. We’ve basically had our first and fourth amendment rights completely stripped from us without anyone so much as picking up an AR15 to protest.
We (the general population) did give away quite a lot, by reacting, instead of having patience, and taking time, and agreeing to the patriot act. Now while trying to direct some of that to go away (NSA keeping stuff), we make it a profit center for businesses to keep all their data for the government.
interesting answer for a conservative. I wish there was never an abortion, but if the Supreme Court decides abortion is legal, or mentally people have a right to gun ownership or a gay young man has the right to marry his male partner, who am I to Say they cannot. The thing about our founding documents though is they were written in a different time. But women have sought abortions whether legal or not since the beginning of time. Just like gun control. Could the founding fathers ever have envisioned AR15’s being sold at big box store and paid for with credit cards? Or young men entering a school full of unarmed children and shooting as many as they can? All of it was totally not in their mind when our young nation was founded. The country is totally different now, for better and for worse.
You could own a ship full of cannons back then (the equivalent of a battleship). When the Constitution was written, well look up the Girandoni air rifle (the automatic weapon of the day). As for young men attacking a school full of children, look up Indian massacres. They were familiar with wipe outs.
As for people with mental instabilities getting guns, legally, of that I am on the fence. I KNOW the person that caused Missouri law to change. As an armed guard he shot out the rear window of a fleeing suspect, that had stolen a bottle of liquor. He was given every opportunity to show defense (was their backup lights on, etc) and didn't comprehend anything wrong. His dream was to be a cop (and it was also his nightmare of being shot as one), and back then, the condition was known to us, only as mental retardation. (I am not family so never heard a clinical diagnosis)
Where I am on the fence is who gets to decide and exactly what are the criteria? If you see someone talking to someone that isn't there, can they have a gun?
What if you don't see the Bluetooth headset?
What if they are driving a car that says in god we trust and are praying they don't get shot that day?
Who gets to be the inspectors to the inspectors and what are t heir agenda's?
flowerseverywhere
2-28-18, 7:21am
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/dicks-sporting-goods-ceo-company-longer-sell-assault/story?id=53403284
interesting development. Dick’s sporting goods will no longer sell these types of weapons, nor to anyone under 21.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/dicks-sporting-goods-ceo-company-longer-sell-assault/story?id=53403284
interesting development. Dick’s sporting goods will no longer sell these types of weapons, nor to anyone under 21.
Marketing and image burnishment opportunities abound. You can do as Dicks does. You can also take advantage of the fear of coming controls to sell weapons to stockpilers. You can noisily disassociate yourself from the NRA. If your're a cable network trailing the Hallmark Channel in the ratings, you can generate drama by using grieving schoolchildren as telegenic ventriloquist's dummies to advance your ideological agenda. T-shirts and hats are just a small part of it.
dado potato
2-28-18, 11:31am
Walmart quit selling "modern sporting rifles" (like the AR-15) and any weapons that accept a high capacity magazine back in 2015. Now Dick's is getting out of that business. I think it will be a while before Bass Pro Shops/Cabelas joins their peers.
WalMart was resisting shareholder initiatives (see WalMart v Trinity Church). Trinity Church, a WalMart shareholder, submitted a formal proposal for the annual meeting of shareholders to vote on a requirement for "the board to oversee the sale of products that especially endanger public safety and well being..." The SEC sided with WMT, issuing a no-action letter permitting WMT to exclude the church's submission from the company's 2014 filings. WMT's legal expenses did not stop there.
Trinity Church went to the U S District Court in Delaware and obtained an order in November 2014 from U S District Judge Leonard Stark directing WMT to put the proposal before the shareholders at the company's next annual meeting.
WMT appealed to the U S Third Circuit Court, where Judge Thomas L. Amber reversed the November decision.
In June of 2015 Dylann Storm Roof killed 9 people in a church in Charleston SC. The revulsion resulting from Roof's gun violence may have been the last straw in changing WMT's position. I hasten to add that Dylann Roof used a .45-caliber pistol, which his father, Franklin "Benn" Roof, had given him as a 21st birthday present. WMT was not a vendor of handguns, thus obviously not a contributing factor in the arming of Dylann Roof.
Incidentally, after photos of Roof holding a confederate battle flag appeared, WMT decided not to sell those flags or other products bearing the southern cross emblem.
The CEO of WMT, Doug McMillan, told CNN, "our focus as it relates to firearms should be hunters and people who shoot sporting clays, and things like that. So the types of rifles we sell and the types of ammunition we sell should be curated for those things."
Trinity Church dropped their legal action against WMT, stating: "Trinity Church is very pleased to hear that WalMart will no longer sell the kind of weapons that have caused such devastation and loss in communities across our country."
I believe WMT sold their inventory of "modern sporting rifles" and have not restocked them.
flowerseverywhere
2-28-18, 12:00pm
Marketing and image burnishment opportunities abound. You can do as Dicks does. You can also take advantage of the fear of coming controls to sell weapons to stockpilers. You can noisily disassociate yourself from the NRA. If your're a cable network trailing the Hallmark Channel in the ratings, you can generate drama by using grieving schoolchildren as telegenic ventriloquist's dummies to advance your ideological agenda. T-shirts and hats are just a small part of it.
And maybe they are just good human beings who sell sporting goods. Maybe they decided these weapons are not sppropriate sporting goods.
Desite the constant bombardment by hysterical statements like “the deep state is conspiring against you”or “the Democrats will take the second amendment away if they regain power” there are good and responsible people out there. They will continue to sell guns. They will continue to sell ammo.
And maybe news news ratings have nothing to do with accuracy. Maybe people who keep Fox News on all day don’t like to read or go for walks and watch an inordinate amount of TV, boosting the ratings. Maybe they are anti-immigrant and people like to hear that agenda. Or maybe they are anti abortion and that trumps all. Who knows? We certainly all should have learned our lessons about polls and ratings when Hillary was projected to win by a landslide.
Whatever, it is wearisome to try to put a political agenda on everything. If you disagree, never set foot in the store again. Easy.
And your remark about greiving schoolchildren, Trump did not hesitate to use children’s photos to raise campaign funds. Advancing his agenda.
And maybe they are just good human beings who sell sporting goods. Maybe they decided these weapons are not sppropriate sporting goods.
Desite the constant bombardment by hysterical statements like “the deep state is conspiring against you”or “the Democrats will take the second amendment away if they regain power” there are good and responsible people out there. They will continue to sell guns. They will continue to sell ammo.
And maybe news news ratings have nothing to do with accuracy. Maybe people who keep Fox News on all day don’t like to read or go for walks and watch an inordinate amount of TV, boosting the ratings. Maybe they are anti-immigrant and people like to hear that agenda. Or maybe they are anti abortion and that trumps all. Who knows? We certainly all should have learned our lessons about polls and ratings when Hillary was projected to win by a landslide.
Whatever, it is wearisome to try to put a political agenda on everything. If you disagree, never set foot in the store again. Easy.
And your remark about greiving schoolchildren, Trump did not hesitate to use children’s photos to raise campaign funds. Advancing his agenda.
I would certainly agree that Mr. Trump is a bloviating poltroon who is quick to exploit tragedy for his own political benefit and self-gratification. Compare his assertion that he would have rushed in bare-handed to Bush Senior complimenting the Japanese on their marksmanship in shooting him out of the sky or Reagan expressing the hope that the doctors about to remove the assassin's bullet were Republicans.
However, Trump is hardly alone in rushing to exploit the situation.
I don't know that Fox has such dominant ratings. At best, they're the tallest man in Lilliput. I sometimes suspect that if they didn't exist it would have been necessary to invent them in aid of crudely caricaturing deplorables for the left to deplore.
Chicken lady
3-1-18, 8:14am
Drive by - Jesse Davidson.
Drive by - Jesse Davidson.
Tom Lehrer - The Folk Song Army
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/dicks-sporting-goods-ceo-company-longer-sell-assault/story?id=53403284
interesting development. Dick’s sporting goods will no longer sell these types of weapons, nor to anyone under 21.Yes, it is interesting to see we've reached a point where rights are fluid. Dick's has affirmed that they will not engage in legal transactions of guns to persons under 21 years of age, an act which I applaud. I just wonder if the ACLU or various State Attorney Generals might consider the action a civil rights violation, much like the sale of cakes or flowers.
iris lilies
3-3-18, 11:17am
Yes, it is interesting to see we've reached a point where rights are fluid. Dick's has affirmed that they will not engage in legal transactions of guns to persons under 21 years of age, an act which I applaud. I just wonder if the ACLU or various State Attorney Generals might consider the action a civil rights violation, much like the sale of cakes or flowers.
Haha. While the ACLU might consider it a possble civil rights violation, I guarantee they will not expend any resources to explore the idea thoroughly or to carry it to a court.
They are choosy about the rights they deem worth protecting.
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