View Full Version : Nearly half of Americans can't afford survival basics....
"Nearly 51 million households don't earn enough to afford a monthly budget that includes housing, food, child care, health care, transportation and a cell phone, according to a study released Thursday by the United Way ALICE Project. That's 43% of households in the United States."
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html
flowerseverywhere
5-17-18, 4:08pm
"Nearly 51 million households don't earn enough to afford a monthly budget that includes housing, food, child care, health care, transportation and a cell phone, according to a study released Thursday by the United Way ALICE Project. That's 43% of households in the United States."
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html
i found this astounding. 43% of households. What is the solution?
Teacher Terry
5-17-18, 4:39pm
It would not load the article. I will try later. If I was low income I would not live here as it is too expensive. Wichita, KS is really cheap with plenty of jobs so would probably move to a place like that.
"Nearly 51 million households don't earn enough to afford a monthly budget that includes housing, food, child care, health care, transportation and a cell phone, according to a study released Thursday by the United Way ALICE Project. That's 43% of households in the United States."
http://money.cnn.com/2018/05/17/news/economy/us-middle-class-basics-study/index.html
Your thoughts?
Your thoughts?
It is a big question, and I have many thoughts on the topic, which I am still gathering.
The situation where I live is even worse, given the much higher cost of living here. And I see the nearby city of Seattle has a similar problem, with larger numbers of folks impacted.
My local community simply doesn't have the economy with its borders to support a "middle class lifestyle" as defined in the article. One of the tasks I am charged with here is economic development, but most things we might try tend to bring in additional population, drive up land values/rents, burden our already oversubscribed infrastructure, or impact our ecosystem negatively. It's not an easy nut to crack.
Teacher Terry
5-17-18, 8:02pm
Our housing has become un-affordable and the homeless numbers are rising. They tore down all the cheap housing downtown and now it will be all upscale. We really need affordable housing for people based on income. People working at google, apple etc make good $ but the casino workers not so much.
ApatheticNoMore
5-17-18, 8:28pm
My bf periodically looks at ALL jobs in a very local area on job boards and says it's amazing how many of them don't pay enough to live off of.
From the data I've seen, you need a $25/hour to survive in NJ. Probably a lot more in many areas. If the minimum wage is <$20/hr, what do people do? You co-house. You put off dreams of having families. As Terry said, you move--a stressful decision, but one that many of our ancestors made. If you are making <$10, you go under. What's wrong? Who are the lucky ones in the bare majority who are managing to get by?
Around here, it looks like a lot of people as described either live by the river in a tent, rent out a room in a house, stay with friends/family or at extended stay hotels very short term. CL is full of ads from people like this looking for somewhere to be other than under a bridge. What happened to our country?
Ultralight
5-17-18, 9:17pm
Workers need to unionize.
iris lilies
5-17-18, 9:18pm
From the data I've seen, you need a $25/hour to survive in NJ. Probably a lot more in many areas. If the minimum wage is <$20/hr, what do people do? You co-house. You put off dreams of having families. As Terry said, you move--a stressful decision, but one that many of our ancestors made. If you are making <$10, you go under. What's wrong? Who are the lucky ones in the bare majority who are managing to get by?
So, everyone should be able to afford a 1 br apartment to live in, alone? Is that the standard?
Workers need to unionize.
To do what? So many people have been left out of the marketable skill department that finding any job is difficult, ask a millennial who has recently graduated and looking for work experience.
FWIW, many people used to live in rooming houses for years having shelter and food but the low-skill jobs paying for this are gone as are the rooming houses. If one is out of the work field for even a year, technology has advanced and it is hard to get back in. Even the farming jobs on big farms need advanced computer skills and scientific knowledge. Offshore labour is used for harvesting crops and even these are quite skilled in their own way so local workers won't do them. Farmers will try to use local labour but these workers don't last a day but start complaining or demanding more pay and fewer hours each day. Unfortunately crops don't watch the clock as they grow.
ApatheticNoMore
5-17-18, 9:49pm
a studio, but if I couldn't afford a studio I never would have left home, so we can't really fault young people for living at home into their 30s and so on, as it may just be the best choice available. Sure small apartments with shared kitchens and private bathrooms might work but do you know anyone building them. So not really an option that exists for anyone on the market.
It’s high time for a universal basic income.
Ultralight
5-18-18, 7:28am
I agree with universal basic income or "mincome" or what-have-you.
I still say workers need to organize into unions. It is an excellent way to better redistribute wealth and resources. It also teaches people to be agents for their own betterment.
I also think that it would be wise and helpful for people to stop feeling so entitled to so much. Things people feel entitled to they really ought to think of as special privileges for those that can afford it.
A car of your own? That is a privilege for those that can afford it.
Having children is your right? No... perhaps it is a privilege for only those that can afford it.
A house in the burbs? Sure! If you can demonstrably afford it.
And so on.
flowerseverywhere
5-18-18, 8:41am
Around here, it looks like a lot of people as described either live by the river in a tent, rent out a room in a house, stay with friends/family or at extended stay hotels very short term. CL is full of ads from people like this looking for somewhere to be other than under a bridge. What happened to our country?
the rich are doing well. The stock market is soaring, so people with a nice stock portfolios are doing quite well. If you invested in real estate in some areas you are doing well. Have a nice pension? Good for you. And a CEO
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/on-leadership/wp/2018/02/21/as-companies-reveal-gigantic-ceo-to-worker-pay-ratios-some-worry-how-low-paid-workers-might-take-the-news/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.016735f45548
i think we are seeing the tip of the iceberg. As almost no middle class people have even modest pensions, more expensive healthcare and higher costs for housing we are heading for more crime, homelessness, drug use and social unrest. There will always be some poor people as their have been in all societies, but to be poor working to your full capacity at least full time with no hope for a way out? Oh wait, let them eat cake.
I think there is a sort of mix of public policy and cultural issues at work here.
On the housing front, for instance, we often see restrictive zoning or rent control suppressing the supply of affordable housing. The less wealthy can either become homeless or be shifted to less "enlightened" jurisdictions. I see the socialist solons of Seattle will be taxing jobs. That should do the trick.
There also seems to be a skills gap, not only technical skills, but things like showing up on time and passing drug tests. The first might be addressable through diverting resources from the snowflake hatchery model of education to a more practical-minded system of technical training and apprenticeships. Competing countries seem to be doing a better job of this than we are. If that makes me a philistine who doesn't appreciate the life of the mind, than so be it.
Above all, I think the cultural barriers to improvement of the situation would best be overcome by a return to the bourgeois values of yesteryear. Personal accountability, stable marriages, self-discipline and all that other boring traditional stuff. I'm not talking about blaming the victim, but I think identifying as a victim does you harm even if you are one.
I also think UL is right that there has been an upward creep in what we consider a basic living standard to be.
My father is generally conservative, but even when I was a child he would talk about how we need to care for the people that are poor. He said that when there’s a big divide between rich and poor, then there’s social unrest and Civil War. Even though this is a utilitarian reasoning, the outcome is still good in that the poor have their basic needs met.
So, everyone should be able to afford a 1 br apartment to live in, alone? Is that the standard?
I could easily afford a one-bedroom apartment on my own back in the day, even before I had a grown-up job, so that seems standard to me. Maybe in this brave new world, we should build dorms. I agree with Ultralight about unions, but that presumes we hold off automation indefinitely.
To LDAHL's education statement...my GS will go to 8th grade in the fall. He's been to a few career days already and we are told there's a class ( required) next year to teach employability skills. This class meets for one period a day - 50 minutes - to teach how to say yes sir, no ma'am, please, thank you. To stand when introduced. How to shake hands. Etc...
He needs math, science, English skills first. The rest should come from the parents. But I guess that's what happens when federal government dictates educational policy.
Teacher Terry
5-18-18, 12:25pm
Tammy, your father was correct. I also agree that the trades should be taught in HS for those kids that want to pursue that line of work. It can be very lucrative. When we lived in KS by age 16 kids could choose to go to HS half days and technical school for a trade the other half which was great.
Also see:
1 in 3 adults have essentially no retirement savings:
https://www.studyfinds.org/third-americans-less-than-5000-retirement-savings/
And, a great article on the new upper-class, hiding as middle class:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/
And - wealth inequality:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/opinion/wealth-inequality-families-children-elderly.html
Coincidentally, I just read the article in The Atlantic and found it very interesting. I have two relatives who would be considered to be in the 9.9 subset; it is interesting to see how they have steered their kids to repeat their successes. "Failure" is not an option. Sometimes I am guilty of thinking lower income folk have just made bad choices (looking back, I certainly did); but I know from experience how important it is to have structure, positive role models or at least some kind of inspiration when one is young and still forming to prevent a bad outcome.
iris lilies
5-18-18, 8:57pm
In the Mathew Stewart article, where is the explanation of how assets are measured? I skimmed beginnig to end, and saw references only to “ the .01%” and the “9.9%” and etc, but how much ARE those assets that determine these classes of wealthy people? Which measure is he using? There are several.
he is clearly is a disciple of the Dream Hoarders book author. Eyeroll.
I warned you all some months ago that “the 10%” is now the target of activist wrath. Forget about The 1%, they are coming for us now.
flowerseverywhere
5-18-18, 10:13pm
Also see:
1 in 3 adults have essentially no retirement savings:
https://www.studyfinds.org/third-americans-less-than-5000-retirement-savings/
And, a great article on the new upper-class, hiding as middle class:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/
And - wealth inequality:
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/opinion/wealth-inequality-families-children-elderly.html
that Atlantic article was fascinating.
The first retirement savings statistic is true. My kids tell me they know a lot of 30 somethings who say they have not taken advantage of contributing enough to even get matching 401 contributions. Free money down the drain.
ApatheticNoMore
5-19-18, 12:15am
About 1/2 of 401ks out there seem not to have matching anyway. Oh there is the place I worked at for 5 years whose total matching was $500 a year no matter how much you put in the 401k. I took the money, yep why not, but anyone thinking that's some great help with retirement has another thing coming.
flowerseverywhere
5-19-18, 11:47am
About 1/2 of 401ks out there seem not to have matching anyway. Oh there is the place I worked at for 5 years whose total matching was $500 a year no matter how much you put in the 401k. I took the money, yep why not, but anyone thinking that's some great help with retirement has another thing coming.
I agree but everyone who gets any kind of match should take it. Even having some retirement savings might be the difference between homelessness and at least having a place to live.
There are many facets of a successful retirement. Enough money to have a comfortable life is one of them, perhaps the most important. The loss of pensions and 401k availability and matching makes it far more difficult. Good health to the best of your ability is very important as well. Taking care of yourself through maintaining a lower weight, blood pressure and cholesterol, and higher rate of fitness than most is certainly helpful in that regard. A house of any kind that is paid off is helpful. Availability of good supplemental health insurance is as well. A good social network and close availability of services like physicians, libraries and transportation is a plus.
In the Mathew Stewart article, where is the explanation of how assets are measured? I skimmed beginnig to end, and saw references only to “ the .01%” and the “9.9%” and etc, but how much ARE those assets that determine these classes of wealthy people? Which measure is he using? There are several.
he is clearly is a disciple of the Dream Hoarders book author. Eyeroll.
I warned you all some months ago that “the 10%” is now the target of activist wrath. Forget about The 1%, they are coming for us now.
I prefer the 10% criterion. I can just make the income and net worth numbers, and I like the idea that I’ve succeeded enough in life to be a class enemy.
cindycindy
5-19-18, 1:10pm
I prefer the 10% criterion. I can just make the income and net worth numbers, and I like the idea that I’ve succeeded enough in life to be a class enemy.
I like this. I make the top 10% in net worth but not in income. Does this mean I'm not a complete class enemy?
ToomuchStuff
5-19-18, 1:15pm
I agree with universal basic income or "mincome" or what-have-you.
I still say workers need to organize into unions. It is an excellent way to better redistribute wealth and resources. It also teaches people to be agents for their own betterment.
I also think that it would be wise and helpful for people to stop feeling so entitled to so much. Things people feel entitled to they really ought to think of as special privileges for those that can afford it.
Knowing someone whose publicly stated goal was to be the worst member of the union and still have his job, as well as those who try to excel and have their union brethren tell them to slow down, your making us look bad, etc. I am unsure how you consider a union to teach one to better themselves. That doesn't even bring up things like embezzlement, political infighting, etc. etc. etc. that all too frequently happens with them. To me they seem to teach relying on a nanny state.
As for feeling entitled, between "keeping up with the Jones" (which is in part what a union is about), TV (and entertainment in general), product marketing/placement, etc., your dealing with emotions verses reasoning. How many people react, instead of act/plan/study, etc? How many people get emotional?
Coincidentally, I just read the article in The Atlantic and found it very interesting. I have two relatives who would be considered to be in the 9.9 subset; it is interesting to see how they have steered their kids to repeat their successes. "Failure" is not an option. Sometimes I am guilty of thinking lower income folk have just made bad choices (looking back, I certainly did); but I know from experience how important it is to have structure, positive role models or at least some kind of inspiration when one is young and still forming to prevent a bad outcome.
I can't stress firmly enough how much positive role models can/do have an inspiration. Even then, they aren't complete as life happens (high school friend whose goal was to be a police officer, was hit in a three car, crash, in such a way that he would never walk right (unassisted) again, by an uninsured motorist, as an example)
I came from the "wrong side of the tracks", and while many lessons I learned were wrong or screwed up (do as I say, not as I do), those I met after I graduated school, taught me a lot more then all the lessons I learned in life prior, where I was taught little/no self worth and my most common dream was being vivisected. What I learned later, got me to the place where my house is paid for (which is great after nearly losing everything/being homeless once, via a long lawsuit), and putting some money aside for a rainy day. I will not be able to "retire" and will have to work until I die (which could be today for all I know), but I don't have the interests/aspirations that some do for retirement (seems to me to be doing boring things, or spend all day frequenting the same stores/etc. bugging people because your lonely).
iris lilies
5-19-18, 1:40pm
I like this. I make the top 10% in net worth but not in income. Does this mean I'm not a complete class enemy?
That is us, especially now in retirement. Low income, high assets. I hope to hide behind my “we are on a senior’s fixed income” mantra when the pitchforks come into my block.
I have never understood that phrase. Whose income isn't fixed? I don't know any company that lets people work as much overtime as they want to max out their earnings. There has always been a limit to what I can spend.
ApatheticNoMore
5-19-18, 2:16pm
I like this. I make the top 10% in net worth but not in income. Does this mean I'm not a complete class enemy?
nah remember FDR came from a wealthy background too .. and the working class got the New Deal, which wasn't everything, wasn't entirely permanent, wasn't universal initially, and was forced in many ways by circumstances (I mean the economy was a total disaster at the time) but nonetheless ...
ToomuchStuff
5-19-18, 10:37pm
I have never understood that phrase. Whose income isn't fixed? I don't know any company that lets people work as much overtime as they want to max out their earnings. There has always been a limit to what I can spend.
Buying on credit, is actually exceeding a limit. As for working as much OT as they want, I know city employees that are/have been allowed to do so (law enforcement, emergency services, etc). This is fairly common based on conversations I have had/employees I know, as the last three years employment are what your retirement is based on. My work, recently offered me WAY more overtime then I could handle (work up to 120 hours a week), I am working OT to help them with their medical issues, but can't drive myself into the hospital as they are currently doing to themselves.
I see at least one writer is concerned that we may lose our focus on which percentage of the population is the real "problem".
https://slate.com/business/2018/05/forget-the-atlantics-9-9-percent-the-1-percent-are-still-the-problem.html
Putting aside the semantics of 1% or 9.9% and how to calculate wealth, I think that facing the hard realities of today's economy is what's really needed. Politicians are loathe to be anything but optimistic boosters, but I'd like to see even one admit that we in the U.S. are in a transition and that the coming years are going to be harder for many.
Meaning, the facts show that:
- costs of basic housing, healthcare and post-secondary education have all risen to levels beyond what working-class and now middle-class incomes can manage
- jobs that were stepping stones, like pink-collar administrative work, or manufacturing/warehouse work, have been greatly reduced and are not coming back
I've mentioned here before that I believe that simple affordable housing is a major cornerstone to a stable life. (see book "Evicted" for an eye-opener). So one solution is to expand the now-restrictive zoning.
Examples: I remember reading about a rural school district which would have one family live in a mobile home on each of the school properties. The family provided some level of building security in exchange for living there.
Another example was a large private storage facility that had one corner of the property set aside for housing for the on-site manager which was big enough for a small family.
And there's a highway rest area in AZ that has a house built to the side for a family which also cleans and oversees the rest area.
Why can't this model be expanded to more public and private businesses? Maybe large casinos/hotels can set aside a few rooms for cleaning and maintenance workers to live in. Maybe every shopping center can provide a space for live-in security worker. Maybe every large apartment complex provides a room in exchange for providing some work hours.
After I graduated high school in the 70s, minimum wage was $2/hour which is $80 for a 40 hour work week. But an above garage apartment rented for $80/month which was 25% of your gross monthly income. That 25% - 33% guideline held true for many years but is now long-gone.
If we as a country don't increase affordable housing stock we won't see progress on many other fronts.
I'm casually browsing real estate ads and noticing that the cost of condos is now rising sharply. I saw a nice one-bedroom unit with a sound view for $575K, and was blown away by its affordability (?!). Dwellings of even the most modest kind are rarely under $200K, and middle class wages are stagnant. I'm not surprised that people are homeless or nearly so, or living with their parents indefinitely.
Even Phoenix, long a low-cost housing mecca, is now in the Top 10 of cities for cost of housing. This is new. I think investors/flippers have discovered this area which have caused bidding wars for any housing under $250,000.
And don't get me started on the new/remodeled apartment complexes which are now almost exclusively "luxury" apartments - aka, put in granite countertops and trendy paint colors and jack up the rent.
flowerseverywhere
5-20-18, 4:41pm
Putting aside the semantics of 1% or 9.9% and how to calculate wealth, I think that facing the hard realities of today's economy is what's really needed. Politicians are loathe to be anything but optimistic boosters, but I'd like to see even one admit that we in the U.S. are in a transition and that the coming years are going to be harder for many.
Meaning, the facts show that:
- costs of basic housing, healthcare and post-secondary education have all risen to levels beyond what working-class and now middle-class incomes can manage
- jobs that were stepping stones, like pink-collar administrative work, or manufacturing/warehouse work, have been greatly reduced and are not coming back
I've mentioned here before that I believe that simple affordable housing is a major cornerstone to a stable life. (see book "Evicted" for an eye-opener). So one solution is to expand the now-restrictive zoning.
Examples: I remember reading about a rural school district which would have one family live in a mobile home on each of the school properties. The family provided some level of building security in exchange for living there.
Another example was a large private storage facility that had one corner of the property set aside for housing for the on-site manager which was big enough for a small family.
And there's a highway rest area in AZ that has a house built to the side for a family which also cleans and oversees the rest area.
Why can't this model be expanded to more public and private businesses? Maybe large casinos/hotels can set aside a few rooms for cleaning and maintenance workers to live in. Maybe every shopping center can provide a space for live-in security worker. Maybe every large apartment complex provides a room in exchange for providing some work hours.
After I graduated high school in the 70s, minimum wage was $2/hour which is $80 for a 40 hour work week. But an above garage apartment rented for $80/month which was 25% of your gross monthly income. That 25% - 33% guideline held true for many years but is now long-gone.
If we as a country don't increase affordable housing stock we won't see progress on many other fronts.
i love your ideas. Start building the foundation one small brick at a time.
There are no doubt all sorts of creative solutions but this country always seems behind the curve when it comes to addressing societal problems. Money I guess. Another factor raising the cost of housing is that so much of it is now investor or corporate owned. I read that rental home loans via large corporations are now bundled and sold as investments.
There are no doubt all sorts of creative solutions but this country always seems behind the curve when it comes to addressing societal problems. Money I guess. Another factor raising the cost of housing is that so much of it is now investor or corporate owned. I read that rental home loans via large corporations are now bundled and sold as investments.
Pinkytoe,
another surprise to me is that investors are now getting into buying entire mobile home parks. There are seminars on how to do it - see the website Mobile Home University: https://www.mobilehomeuniversity.com/ The last housing refuge of the working poor or low-income retirees has now become a hot commodity.
SteveinMN
5-20-18, 10:08pm
There are no doubt all sorts of creative solutions but this country always seems behind the curve when it comes to addressing societal problems. Money I guess.
Money, yes. It's also America's ethos of individualism and self-reliance; the U.S. is not the kind of collective society that Japan or many Scandinavian countries are. It's also American exceptionalism. And, increasingly, it's the deep-seated belief among too many people that societal problems are merely individual problems on a larger scale, and that if those on or near the safety nets would only work harder or exercise more or spend less money, they, too, would be among the winners in life. >8)
The last housing refuge of the working poor or low-income retirees has now become a hot commodity.
At a party a couple of weeks ago, I met an attorney who is running a non-profit geared to letting mobile-home-park renters form a cooperative that then buys out the park owners and lets the residents remain as a self-governing, self-funding group. He's been kind of busy. I don't know how much time he has to spend combatting zoning ordinances and building codes designed to keep manufactured housing out of the locales it currently inhabits. But it's a neat idea and I wish him a lot of success.
flowerseverywhere
5-20-18, 10:12pm
Pinkytoe,
another surprise to me is that investors are now getting into buying entire mobile home parks. There are seminars on how to do it - see the website Mobile Home University: https://www.mobilehomeuniversity.com/ The last housing refuge of the working poor or low-income retirees has now become a hot commodity.
several years ago Ben Stein came to speak and he was touting mobile home parks. Personally I would not trust investors not to try to make them more upscale and up the rent.
flowerseverywhere
5-20-18, 10:17pm
In the summer we RV and there are lots of people out there full time RVing. There are BLM lands, state, county and national parks that are free or inexpensive to stay in. Many workcampers stay, or seasonal workers. You have to move every two weeks but it can be very cheap. Some Walmart’s and other restaurants let you stay in their lots, which we see all over the country. We have even met people who tent it full time. One day in a church parking lot there were young women in several cars sleeping.
ToomuchStuff
5-21-18, 12:47am
After I graduated high school in the 70s, minimum wage was $2/hour which is $80 for a 40 hour work week. But an above garage apartment rented for $80/month which was 25% of your gross monthly income. That 25% - 33% guideline held true for many years but is now long-gone.
If we as a country don't increase affordable housing stock we won't see progress on many other fronts.
In the 70's around here, housing changed. Split levels, became the norm (and are bigger then the previous homes for the most part), and they had two car garages, as compared to most of the homes built in the 50's-60's that I am aware of.
Then cities busted down on things like garage apartments, or apartments above stores, etc.
That is all before the inflation period hit, with the start of the fuel crisis, and houses started routinely having central air (other expenses).
ApatheticNoMore
5-21-18, 2:19am
If we as a country don't increase affordable housing stock we won't see progress on many other fronts.
actually the affordable qualifier isn't even necessary since it seems there might be a genuine shortage of housing period going on, well at least in this state, so almost increase housing stock period (yea with basic safety standards still enforced - that goes without saying). And yes of course housing that people actually live in not someone's investment speculation (that does take some off the market). And yes with some degree of density to provide enough housing (I think how much can be debated - I don't think it necessary does involve huge skyscraper apartments or anything). But whether it even needs to be affordable, in a genuine shortage just building more should help period.
There may be benefits with experimenting with SROs etc. as they will house more more densely, it's not my ideal living arrangement, but probably necessary (I'd choose it over roommates in a second).
this translates into an increasing state of hopelessness which turns into the current crime rate...........just my opinion.
Teacher Terry
5-21-18, 12:08pm
We are seeing an increase of crime as our city has a bigger distance between the haves and have nots. A realtor told me that investors are selling now and when a new investor buys they up the rent to a price that is not affordable and people have nowhere to go. So much upscale housing being created but nothing for the little guy. REally sad.
catherine
5-21-18, 12:14pm
I saw a studio for rent in a private residence (I think), and thought of my BIL, but dropped that thought immediately when I saw that the price was just under $1000/mo. So the single person who could afford that, if you go by then old 30% rule, would have to earn almost $40k.
Here's a Living Wage in New Jersey document (http://livingwage.mit.edu/states/34)that shows that you can make ends meet if you make $13.72 hour. Then you can afford a $1k/month place, at least by their calculations, which assume you are steadily working or getting paid for time off. But minimum wage in NJ is only $8.60 an hour, so you clearly can't even afford a studio.
This is why I keep BEGGING BIL to watch his pennies and cut out expensive haircuts and highlights and convenience store coffee every day, and consider plunking his money down on a cheap place in Florida, because once he gets to the point where his money is gone and he's still making minimum wage at a seasonal job, he's screwed. But you know what they say about leading a horse to water.
because once he gets to the point where his money is gone and he's still making minimum wage at a seasonal job, he's screwed.
Its likely he thinks that you will continue to support him. Why not? Someone always has.
In the summer we RV and there are lots of people out there full time RVing. There are BLM lands, state, county and national parks that are free or inexpensive to stay in. Many workcampers stay, or seasonal workers. You have to move every two weeks but it can be very cheap. Some Walmart’s and other restaurants let you stay in their lots, which we see all over the country. We have even met people who tent it full time. One day in a church parking lot there were young women in several cars sleeping.
My uncle in his 80's does full time RV-ing. He also needs to keep working. He had a fire that quickly took everything he owned because the RV was a total loss. The difference between the insurance and what he and his wife really need is $17K. So there is another go-fund-me, add that to the medical and other emergency ones and i get overwhelmed. My uncle has worked his entire life, does not have extravagances, paid his insurance and in his 80's is now jobless and homeless evidently.
Teacher Terry
5-21-18, 1:52pm
Catherine, you need to get rid of him before he is broke. Ugh! If he is staying in NJ maybe sign him up p for low income housing.
Catherine, you need to get rid of him before he is broke. Ugh! If he is staying in NJ maybe sign him up p for low income housing.
Yeah, my son the lawyer already suggested that. The problem with BIL is not just that he acts like an entitled little boy thanks to his mom, but he truly has some cognitive issues. For instance, I've told him repeatedly to get his stuff out of an expensive storage locker, but the very thought of that simple task overwhelms him. I see it in his eyes, and he's repeatedly cried out to DH and I, "I'm not like you! I can't do 8 things at once!" In truth, in many cases, he can't do one thing at once. He freezes up and freaks out. It's not like he's some countercultural MBA who gave up a corporate job and is sitting on my couch smoking weed and reading Proust, and laughing at us behind our back. I'm not making excuses, but it's hard to teach a 55 year old man basic living skills that he should have learned in his teens.
Anyway, if things go well in VT, we will be selling the house in the spring and he'll have to find his way out.
Teacher Terry
5-21-18, 2:31pm
Would he let you help him with these tasks? I had a good friend but when she got MS it affected her cognitively. So I helped her get a disability retirement at work, did all the phone calls, etc on her behalf, filled out the paperwork, applied for low income housing for her, went to the meetings with her, etc. It all worked out and she was able to get what she needed. She was smart but the effects of the MS made her unable to do these things for herself.
Would he let you help him with these tasks? I had a good friend but when she got MS it affected her cognitively. So I helped her get a disability retirement at work, did all the phone calls, etc on her behalf, filled out the paperwork, applied for low income housing for her, went to the meetings with her, etc. It all worked out and she was able to get what she needed. She was smart but the effects of the MS made her unable to do these things for herself.
Another "character defect" he has is he only hears what he wants to hear, and when you bring something up he interrupts with 'yeah, yeah, I know, I know"--DH thinks he is sensitive to people thinking he's stupid, or he just doesn't want to be bothered listening. For instance, I've tried to tell him about personal finance, and he truly does't understand the concept. When I gave him Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover book, he said that that doesn't fit him because he doesn't have money. I told him "that's the point. Read this and you might." but he never takes the time to process new information.
But he has asked for my help when it comes to posting on Facebook, or booking a flight to Las Vegas. Then he's appreciative. I'll bring up the low-income housing thing, but I truly wish he'd get out of New Jersey. For his sake.
Teacher Terry
5-21-18, 3:00pm
I hope he lets you help him. YOu guys deserve to enjoy your golden years and he could have a decent place on his income. I forgot he has house $ which may make him not eligible.
I hope he lets you help him. YOu guys deserve to enjoy your golden years and he could have a decent place on his income. I forgot he has house $ which may make him not eligible.
Honestly, he's not interfering with my enjoyment of life. I b*tch about him, but he's a nice guy and funny. Sometimes annoying, but what roommate isn't? It will all work out.
rosarugosa
5-21-18, 5:11pm
Catherine: I can appreciate your kindness to DBIL and he is after all your DH's brother. I have a few friends who are somewhat like him, sort of never got the hang of the whole adult thing (and it isn't easy). I will be preparing 3 years of tax returns for one of them. He is due refunds, but he has never filed a tax return at 58 years old. His return will be super-simple, and I am willing to do this for him going forward for as long as we both may live. We've been friends for 45 years, so how could I not help?
ToomuchStuff
5-22-18, 12:52am
Hopefully you get a tshirt made up for him, before your house is on the market, since I expect he will not understand that he can't be there during showings. For sale, make offer in large print.
organictex
5-30-18, 11:32pm
i just read that we have spent $5.6 trillion dollars so far on the perpetual "War on Terror". I bet that would
have surely helped many citizens improve their lot in life...instead of lining the pockets of the Arms Industry!
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