View Full Version : Cruise to Key West, Cuba, and Port Canaveral
Hi all:
I just got back from a week long vacation. 4 days was a cruise (first day at sea, second day in Key West, third day in Havana, Cuba, fourth day at sea). And three days was at an Air BnB in Port Canaveral about a 10 minute walk to the beach.
The cruise was a very interesting experience. I would do it again...
Teacher Terry
6-4-18, 4:25pm
Glad you enjoyed it. We love to cruise
We love cruising, too. How was Cuba? I'm actually having dinner tonight with my SIL, and she has recently been. It will likely be our dinner table topic..
We love cruising, too. How was Cuba? I'm actually having dinner tonight with my SIL, and she has recently been. It will likely be our dinner table topic..
Well, I only went to Havana, and just for a day.
But it was interesting. We did a guided walking tour of Old Havana and then a classic car tour of greater Havana. I brought back two bottles of rum, a pack of coffee, and one cigar. These are just going to be gifts for friends.
I guess you won't be paying off 37% of your debt anytime soon.
I guess you won't be paying off 37% of your debt anytime soon.
What is that about?
I am comparing him to ejchase (different thread).
In the past UL's extensive international travels whilst he has significant debts have led some here to question his commitment to simple living as most define it.
I guess you won't be paying off 37% of your debt anytime soon.
I enjoy baiting you spend-shamers. ;)
In the past UL's extensive international travels whilst he has significant debts have led some here to question his commitment to simple living as most define it.
Simple living is defined in many ways, and people have different simple living goals: From Wikipedia:
Simple living encompasses a number of different voluntary practices to simplify one's lifestyle. These may include, for example, reducing one's possessions, generally referred to as minimalism, or increasing self-sufficiency. Simple living may be characterized by individuals being satisfied with what they have rather than want.[1][2] Although asceticism generally promotes living simply and refraining from luxury and indulgence, not all proponents of simple living are ascetics.[3] Simple living is distinct from those living in forced poverty, as it is a voluntary lifestyle choice.
Adherents may choose simple living for a variety of personal reasons, such as spirituality, health, increase in quality time for family and friends, work–life balance, personal taste, financial sustainability, frugality, or reducing stress. Simple living can also be a reaction to materialism and conspicuous consumption. Some cite socio-political goals aligned with the environmentalist, anti-consumerist or anti-war movements, including conservation, degrowth, social justice, and tax resistance.[4]
So, I believe that reducing debt is one good way to live a simple life, but not necessarily the definitive one. We know that UL is a devout minimalist--while others here may have no debt but many possessions. Many of us pursue simple living for other reasons. Personally, I have debt, but I am interested in the environmental and spiritual aspects of simple living.
To each his own.
I am comparing him to ejchase (different thread).
In the past UL's extensive international travels whilst he has significant debts have led some here to question his commitment to simple living as most define it.
Extensive? I have been to 11 nations.
...spiritual aspects of simple living.
This alone is a legitimate form of simple living.
And... for the record... I will likely not take another international trip for 12+ months.
I am comparing him to ejchase (different thread).
In the past UL's extensive international travels whilst he has significant debts have led some here to question his commitment to simple living as most define it.
Jealous?
No, I do not like air travel, do not have a passport, and have set myself a goal of traveling closer to home.
If someone dies before they pay back their massive Federally subsidized student loans, do I as a taxpayer take some of the hit?
No, I do not like air travel, do not have a passport, and have set myself a goal of traveling closer to home.
If someone dies before they pay back their massive Federally subsidized student loans, do I as a taxpayer take some of the hit?
I don't like air travel either, but I still do it. I really, really dislike travel by car.
I think that you do take the hit. Why?
If you spend your money traveling rather than repaying your loans, am I on the hook if something happens to you? Or are they private loans?
If you spend your money traveling rather than repaying your loans, am I on the hook if something happens to you? Or are they private loans?
The taxpayers cover it if I end up six feet in a hole. Why do you ask? My loans are all public.
I am a taxpayer.
Dude! Me too! This is so cool. What are the odds?!
Extensive? I have been to 11 nations.
The average American has been to 3 nations. 29% of US citizens have never been out of the country.
The average American has been to 3 nations. 29% of US citizens have never been out of the country.
The average American has a smart phone, a TV, a house they cannot afford, bad taste in music, books, films, and art, and is obese. I'd rather be a better-than average American. But suit yourself, champ.
And that, Yppej, is what is known as a rhetorical smack-down! ;)
ApatheticNoMore
6-4-18, 9:52pm
I'm better than the average american in that I don't fly at all.
I go to Key West often, but never made it to Cuba. Not sure on all the rules involved.
I of coarse fly myself down, i live 5 to 10 minutes to my hangar , and it’s a hour flight. Then maybe 15 minutes to Mallory Square by cab.
I'm better than the average american in that I don't fly at all.
i either fly myself or take the airlines for any trip that would take more than a couple of hours to drive. Weather permitting . Driving takes way to much time.
i have gone on a few cruises, they were OK. Most of my boat trips now are local.
And that, Yppej, is what is known as a rhetorical smack-down! ;)
No, it's known as snobbery. You are better than other Americans who can't do the elitist things you do, like international travel, because they are too busy struggling to pay for housing costs while also subsidizing your student loans through a special program. And in years to come you as a public sector employee will be enjoying a pension while they still struggle in their golden years. You call yourself an old style liberal. News flash - it is backlash against condescending liberals like you that got Donald Trump elected. For instance, what gives you the right to bodyshame overweight individuals? Or judge the music, book, film and art tastes of others?
Thankfully not all liberals are like you. Some care about things like housing affordability instead of blaming the victims.
ETA: a lot of folks in the Trump demographic have not had the privilege of attending college, but have subsidized your numerous degrees. Have you ever thanked them?
The average American has a smart phone, a TV, a house they cannot afford, bad taste in music, books, films, and art, and is obese. I'd rather be a better-than average American. But suit yourself, champ.
Reposting so you cannot edit away your condescension.
Alright, until now I have just been goofing on you. But now I will respond more seriously.
No, it's known as snobbery. You are better than other Americans who can't do the elitist things you do, like international travel, because they are too busy struggling to pay for housing costs while also subsidizing your student loans through a special program.
You spend-shaming me is its own form of snobbery. You know that, right?
What, really, is wrong with working hard to be better than average? Should we all aim right for the middle? What about all those people who are less than average? They probably resent the average people. Maybe we should all try to be below average, will that satisfy you? Maybe the people who are physically stronger than average should have weights attached to them to make them only as strong as an average person? ;)
I can afford to travel internationally once in a while because I live a minimalist lifestyle. I don't own a cell phone. My car was the least expensive one on the market in 2012. I walk to work. I don't shop recreationally. I don't have kids. My hobbies are reading old books, fishing from the shore, and (lately) drawing pictures -- all inexpensive. These are just some examples.
And in years to come you as a public sector employee will be enjoying a pension while they still struggle in their golden years.
No, I don't have a pension. I have something like a 401k.
You call yourself an old style liberal. News flash - it is backlash against condescending liberals like you that got Donald Trump elected.
No, actually people who voted for Trump got Trump elected. The electoral college racket helped too.
For instance, what gives you the right to bodyshame overweight individuals? Or judge the music, book, film and art tastes of others?
What gives me the right? The first amendment! The same thing that gives you the right to yammer on about how resentful you are that I am in a Public Service Loan Forgiveness program. The same thing that gives you the right to spout off about how bitter you are about me traveling to other countries once in a while.
Thankfully not all liberals are like you. Some care about things like housing affordability instead of blaming the victims.
Uh... You cannot be serious. I have always voted for liberals. I worked on campaigns to register more liberals to vote and to get-out-the-vote. I also interned and worked full time for labor unions fighting for living wages for working people. I worked for a labor union of immigrant construction workers in Arizona during the reign of Sheriff Joe Arpaio. I organized food service workers in inner city Philly. I was a student activist during the successful bus drivers' strike at the University of Alabama -- which got the drivers a pay raise and increase in benefits in their first contract.
My boots have been on the ground for years and years. They have mud and grit all over them. Let me see your boots.
I support: universal healthcare, better funding of public schools, fair housing, civil liberty, GLBTQIIA rights, free speech, public transportation, workers' rights, environmental protection.
I am a dyed in the wool old school liberal. Deal with it!
ETA: a lot of folks in the Trump demographic have not had the privilege of attending college, but have subsidized your numerous degrees. Have you ever thanked them?
I did not have the privilege of going to college. Why do you think I took out the loans? Everyone -- even you -- can take out these loans. I took out way too many. I was nearly totally financially illiterate when I was in my late teens and on through my early 30s.
Thanked them? Uh... no. My taxes go to pay for kids' schools. But I don't expect parents to thank me. My taxes go to pay for your roads. But I don't expect you to thank me. My taxes go to pay for the loans that other students will receive and hopefully be forgiven for because of their pubic service. And I do not expect them to thank me.
I don't like to talk about this sort of thing, but I think it is warranted to make a point here. Some of the fundraising work I do for the university (as a demonized public employee) goes to cancer research and treatment programs, for instance. But I do not expect those treated for cancer to thank me. Why? Because I believe that we ought to take care of each other when we are weak, disadvantaged, tired, sick, or hungry. And we ought to do this not for the thanks or the fanfare. We ought to do it simply because it is the right thing to do.
I'm going to bet on Ultralight's improved eating habits, which will enable him to live to a ripe old age and pay off all his student loans.;)
Ultra lite is working at a job that will pay off his loan balance after a certain number of years, as long as he makes minimum payments along the way. It would stupid of him to pay ahead on those loans.
iris lilies
6-5-18, 10:30am
Dude! Me too! This is so cool. What are the odds?!
Ok, this made me laugh.
But I think jeppy forgets that when every public expense is spread over a large base of millions of taxpayers, that is just a teeny tiny bit for each of us all to pay. We should be grateful these support systems exist. We should not focus on what it costs each of us. Really, hundreds of thousands of public welfare programs should not concern us because it is only cents that we pay. I dont know the math but
I doubt it adds up to much.
Besides, any more it all pretty much falls to Alan, with so many of us retired and having tiny incomes. Throw him under the bus, who cares.
/sarcasm.
Teacher Terry
6-5-18, 10:38am
When you are a public employee often you work for less pay in exchange for some better benefits. So UL probably makes less $ than he could in private industry but gets loan forgiveness as a perk. I love to travel both in the states and internationally. Meeting people from other countries expands ones perspective. UL sacrifices many things that others consider necessities to travel. He is not going into debt to do it. BTW UL I love how you are walking your talk. I was raised to be active in politics and social justice issues and have been my whole life.
Besides, any more it all pretty much falls to Alan, with so many of us retired and having tiny incomes. Throw him under the bus, who cares.
/sarcasm.LOL, I'm getting out of the paying taxes game in another 7 weeks or so, someone else will have to pick up the mantle.
iris lilies
6-5-18, 11:35am
When you are a public employee often you work for less pay in exchange for some better benefits. So UL probably makes less $ than he could in private industry but gets loan forgiveness as a perk. I love to travel both in the states and internationally. Meeting people from other countries expands ones perspective. UL sacrifices many things that others consider necessities to travel. He is not going into debt to do it. BTW UL I love how you are walking your talk. I was raised to be active in politics and social justice issues and have been my whole life.
I worked in the public sector and regularly heard that bullshit about how we could make more money in the private sector.
I unequivocally assure you that my group could NOT make more money in the private sector considering all of the financial and workplace perks and considering the number of “private sector” library positions that exist. Could NOT. That old canard always pissed me off, it was pure fantasy.
Teacher Terry
6-5-18, 12:20pm
Well in my line of work I could have made 20k more a year in private.
ApatheticNoMore
6-5-18, 12:32pm
I worked in the public sector and regularly heard that bullshit about how we could make more money in the private sector.
I unequivocally assure you that my group could NOT make more money in the private sector considering all of the financial and workplace perks and considering the number of “private sector” library positions that exist. Could NOT. That old canard always pissed me off, it was pure fantasy.
+10000. It's like complaining about the price of mansions increasing, it is about as in touch. Who is this stuff supposed to apply to anyway? I think it's possibly it may have been kinda sorta true for some baby boomers. But does anyone really think it's true for millennials (or even Gen X to any real degree)?
Oh the millenials working at Starbucks or retail because they couldn't get better? Oh yea government work would have been such a let down from barrista, such a let down. The thing is competition for anything that pays enough to live on is fierce enough but sitting pretty with government work - yea good luck with that fantasy, buy a lottery ticket while your at it! There may be a few things like teaching that aren't as fierce a competition, mostly because they are probably really bad jobs. But otherwise there is a reason they have 200 people in a room at a time taking tests for government work, and only the top % of scorers will ever even have a chance get it. But the private sector pays so much? Please, the private sector mostly pays as little as it can get away with! (and salaries never really recovered from the recession) and the public sector is unionized.
iris lilies
6-5-18, 12:36pm
+10000. It's like complaining about the price of mansions increasing, it is about as in touch. Who is this stuff supposed to apply to anyway? I think it's possibly it may have been kinda sorta true for some baby boomers. But does anyone really think it's true for millennials (or even Gen X to any real degree)?
Oh the millenials working at Starbucks or retail because they couldn't get better? Oh yea government work would have been such a let down from barrista, such a let down. The thing is competition for anything that pays enough to live on is fierce enough but sitting pretty with government work - yea good luck with that fantasy, buy a lottery ticket while your at it! There may be a few things like teaching that aren't as fierce a competition, mostly because they are probably really bad jobs. But otherwise there is a reason they have 200 people in a room at a time taking tests for government work, and only the top % of scorers will ever even have a chance get it.
Yes. Public sector employees in certain jobs need to get over themselves about how hard they have it, how much of a sacrifice they make, and how service orientated they are.
Notice I do say “in certain jobs.”
Teacher Terry
6-5-18, 12:51pm
In my line of work if you work in public you help the clients. If you work in private you screw the clients and help the insurance companies keep their $ instead of reasonably paying out what they owe the injured worker to help them retrain for a different line of work due to the injury. I have friends that work in private only because they need the $ for their families but if $ was not a issue would rather work in public. We are in the same line of work. Anyone can apply for a government job. You might have to move for one too which many people don't want to do. Also in my state government is lean and mean. Often when people quit or retire they don't replace them and the workload can be brutal. It was one reason I retired 2 years before 60 because of the huge workload. It is interesting that some people are jealous of people that went to college, work for the government etc. Many of us made sacrifices to obtain this. I had blue collar working parents who could not afford to send us to college but would let us live at home and feed us etc if we wanted to go. I also moved across the country away from my family when I didn't want to so I could work a government job. I couldn't get one in my line of work in WI.
I worked for the city and I can tell you that there was no private sector job that was equivalent. It was difficult work for a variety of reasons but I also knew that I had a great gig. I made very good money, I had great benefits and at the end I was making so much time off I had to take a day off a week in a use it or lose it. The last 15 years of my job were very stressful but I knew I could never make the money elsewhere and I wanted to hang on for the golden ticket - pension at 55. I was on the Oral Boards for several different departments and I can tell you that hundreds would apply for one position. It isn't easy to get in but if you get in and pass probation you are pretty much golden unless you do something incredibly stupid.
ApatheticNoMore
6-5-18, 1:27pm
telling it like it is, if public sector workers didn't act like out of touch multi-millionaires they might be more sympathetic as it they just come across as completely clueless. I have heard friday traffic is less because government workers don't work on friday. It made me want to throw up, how can this even exist? Whoever heard of 4 day weeks? Well I do know city workers around here, do get every other friday off.
Teacher Terry
6-5-18, 2:29pm
We can not always control what happens to us in life but we can control our reactions to it and not become bitter. Bitterness is a poison to the person. A good example is my BF whose 19 yo daughter died from a rare liver disease. Although, her world was devastated she has carried on and not allowed it to consume her or make her a bitter person.
Williamsmith
6-5-18, 3:50pm
There are some commentaries that do stand the test of time and can be found . This one from The Economist “Government Workers of the World Unite” provides an accurate analysis of the sector envy Public/private and rightly points out the unions as the driving factor for wage and benefit differences. It takes a nasty swipe at the public sector and as I see it, justifiably in many instances. But as it was written in 2011.....it was accurate in its prediction that the pendulum has begun to swing against the public sector. State and Federal government is quickly reaching the crisis point where pension obligations exceed funding.
The “shaming” of public sector employees is rather wasted energy. I suspect most are like me, I feel like I earned it, sacrificed myself over and over again and my family, pulled up stakes and moved once too often and exposed myself to injury or worse because we all know government isn’t as efficient at providing services nor do they provide the best tools to work with. Just ask the private sector.
If I were starting again, government work would not be my choice. The canary in the mine is about to fall off its perch and go ten toes high.
https://www.economist.com/node/17849199
Oh yeah, I don’t begrudge having to help others with their student loans that can’t or won’t help themselves......I just wish they’d gotten a better education for my money.
1. There was a time not too long ago when gubmint workers envied those guys working the line at the Ford factory. They had great pay, amazing bennies, a hell of a retirement plan, and strong unions.
2. Private sector workers gripe about us gubmint workers and our amazing pay and bennies. It is as though they say: "If I can't have what they have then they shouldn't have it either!" But I say: "I want all workers to have fair pay, excellent bennies, a great retirement plan, and strong unions." I have voted and been an activist in line with this sentiment my whole adult life.
3. I make about $49k. I have a 401k style retirement vehicle at my job, along with a small Roth and a small traditional IRA I fund myself, voluntarily out of my own pocket. When I worked private sector (for a labor union as a researcher) I made $50k plus $9k for food. I had better healthcare too. But this really is exceptional. If I was to try to break into the private sector I would like make a lot less. There are not many private sector jobs that do what I do. Non-profits do, but I would like make the same or less. Chances are I would have to enter a low-paying private sector different than the line of work I am in now, if I went private sector.
3. I am not a member of a union where I work. At OSU only a small unit of trades workers are in a union. The rest of the employees across all the types of work are at-will schlubs.
You make more than me despite living in a lower cost of living area. But I am subsidizing your student loans while you jet around the world. And you admit you think you are better than other people. This cultural condescension put Trump over the top thanks to the white working class in places like Michigan. Teacher Terry, bitter is an interesting choice of words. "Bitter clingers" has now been embraced with pride in the way other groups have taken derogatory terms and appropriated them.
You make more than me despite living in a lower cost of living area.
That might be because of luck. It might also be because I can be very charming in interviews. It could also be that I have a certain skill set that I acquired at university. It could also be that when all others in my graduate school cohort waited and waited for the "perfect" job in their field in the location they wanted I was willing to go anywhere and to do work outside the scope of my education. It could be a combination of these things and others.
I also don't know much about you, your education, your training, your experience, or how you come off in person.
But I am subsidizing your student loans while you jet around the world.
I am 38 years old. I have been to 10 or 12 nations (depending on how you count):
-Canada (went to Niagara Falls with my parents when I was a kid)
-Costa Rica (I studied rain forest ecology and Spanish there in college)
-Spain (part of my honeymoon)
-Portugal (part of my honeymoon)
-England (part of my honeymoon)
-Aruba (vacation with a girlfriend)
-Israel (solo vacation)
-Palestine (solo vacation)
-Jordan (solo vacation)
-Argentina (solo vacation)
-Uruguay (solo vacation)
-Cuba (this cruise)
That is less than 1 country every three years. I am hardly in the jet set.
And you admit you think you are better than other people.
Yes, I admit it. So what? I am better than the a%$hole drunks back in my old neighborhood who beat their wives and kids. I am better than Neo-Nazis. I am better than a lot of people. But it is not like I am some Jonas Salk or Neil DeGrasse Tyson or even my friend Tonya who is a pediatrician with low-income kids or my friend Jim who still works at organizing workers.
This cultural condescension put Trump over the top thanks to the white working class in places like Michigan.
For your own sanity you need to let this go. What made Trump win the election was the ignorance of those that voted for him.
Tell me a bit more about yourself, Yppej. What do you do for work? What are your hobbies? What is your social circle like?
ApatheticNoMore
6-5-18, 9:17pm
1. There was a time not too long ago when gubmint workers envied those guys working the line at the Ford factory. They had great pay, amazing bennies, a hell of a retirement plan, and strong unions.
not in a long long time, this was mostly lost with NAFTA etc. that was a long time ago. More than my working memory or my memory of working anyway.
Student loans is a difficult one, people frankly in many cases were charged too much for their education even at state schools (although pretty reasonable in this state). Some careers actually do require degrees from somewhere prestigious, and many will do just fine with a degree from state U, and it's a ton of debt otherwise without scholarships or bank of mom and dad.
But education is neither ultimately the problem (do people with student loans really think they have it worse than others including those who never went to college - privileged whining is always an ugly look at least do it in private not in public) nor really the solution (as pumping out more educated people won't help as there already aren't jobs that really require all those credentials). The problem is too many jobs pay too little to live off.
I repeat – it would be stupid of ultralight to pay off his loans ahead of schedule. This is a benefit of his job that any of us would take advantage of if it were offered to us. And we would travel and enjoy our lives along the way.
I repeat – it would be stupid of ultralight to pay off his loans ahead of schedule. This is a benefit of his job that any of us would take advantage of if it were offered to us. And we would travel and enjoy our lives along the way.
No, Yppej would work so hard to make as many extra payments as possible, all the while thanking every taxpayer they met all the time.
The average American has been to 3 nations. 29% of US citizens have never been out of the country.
Dang. What a depressing pair of statistics. Undoubtedly there are people who've tried traveling and just don't like it, but I suspect there are plenty who would enjoy it and learn something along the way but just haven't done it. I've done a fair amount of international travel and the money it cost (although it seemed significant at the time) was a pittance compared to all the people met, experiences had, things seen.
And I'm just a rank amateur compared to some people I've known. Decades ago I had a friend who would work several months a year at an Alaskan fish cannery which paid great money (and included room and board and one roundtrip airfare to Alaska. the only thing to actually spend money on where it was was alcohol, which she didn't do.) She'd save up $6-8,000 and then spend the rest of the year traveling in whatever part of the world she'd planned to see that year. Once money ran low she'd come back to the states, go up to Alaska again, and start the process over.
I worked in the public sector and regularly heard that bullshit about how we could make more money in the private sector.
I unequivocally assure you that my group could NOT make more money in the private sector considering all of the financial and workplace perks and considering the number of “private sector” library positions that exist. Could NOT. That old canard always pissed me off, it was pure fantasy.
Undoubtedly it depends on what skillset one has. My father spent the last 24 years of his working life as an accountant working for the federal government. He knew he could earn more money in the private sector (and had taken a sizable pay cut when he took the gov't job, but since his wife (my mom) had given him an ultimatum of "we can move one more time but never again or I'm divorcing you and moving back to denver" he happily accepted the pay cut since it also meant moving to denver to live happily ever after) He could have then found a private sector job in denver that paid better but the civil service pension and retirement healthcare benefit were generous enough that he chose to stick it out until he was 63 when he retired in the early 90's. I have no idea if the same would be true today.
UL, since you asked, a little about me.
I lived at home and worked as many as 7 part-time jobs to pay my own way through college and did not take out any loans. I lived with my parents and thanked them for the free room and board. Some merit-based scholarships also helped with portions of the tuition. I thanked the individuals who funded the scholsrships. This was in the US.
Next I went to graduate school on a full scholarship with a paid assistantship helping a professor which covered my living expenses. This was available to any graduate applicant as the school was in Canada where public funding was good. I did not thank amyone for that. I am a dual citizen and have also been to England, France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Germany and the Bahamas. Travel was interesting but only enlightening in Canada where I immersed myself in the culture. I was not in debt and did not go into debt for any of these trips.
Subsequently I went back to school in the US for another degree which I funded primarily myself but with some tuition reimbursement from a job. I thanked my employer (the CEO).
Trump won due to the resentment of voters, which he tapped into. Calling them ignorant is not helpful. I am not one of them, but I understand where they are coming from. They voted against their economic self- interest (especially those on expanded Medicaid) for cultural reasons and out of anti-elitism.
My work is non-salaried office employment and I have friends both at and away from the job. This weekend a group of us are going to an island in the region, an affordable day trip, especially since one friend just finished an MBA and is on a budget, but all of us try to live within our means.
Travel, gardening, hiking, reading, and table games are all hobbies I enjoy.
UL, since you asked, a little about me.
Thanks for sharing.
I lived at home and worked as many as 7 part-time jobs to pay my own way through college and did not take out any loans. I lived with my parents and thanked them for the free room and board. Some merit-based scholarships also helped with portions of the tuition. I thanked the individuals who funded the scholsrships. This was in the US.
When was this?
My parents kicked me out of the house when I was 17 and still a junior in high school. So living at home and going to school was not an option. I am glad you were able to do it though, I am sure it lightened your responsibility load considerably.
Next I went to graduate school on a full scholarship with a paid assistantship helping a professor which covered my living expenses. This was available to any graduate applicant as the school was in Canada where public funding was good. I did not thank amyone for that. I am a dual citizen and have also been to England, France, Switzerland, Liechtenstein, Germany and the Bahamas. Travel was interesting but only enlightening in Canada where I immersed myself in the culture. I was not in debt and did not go into debt for any of these trips.
"Public funding was good." Hmmm... those taxpayers really helped you. Being a dual citizen must have been really nice! Not having to worry about healthcare in graduate school must have been especially nice. Good on you for being able to enjoy these privileges.
Subsequently I went back to school in the US for another degree which I funded primarily myself but with some tuition reimbursement from a job. I thanked my employer (the CEO).
Did you thank your employer for your salary too? It is important to grovel.
Trump won due to the resentment of voters, which he tapped into. Calling them ignorant is not helpful. I am not one of them, but I understand where they are coming from. They voted against their economic self- interest (especially those on expanded Medicaid) for cultural reasons and out of anti-elitism.
Again, you need to ease up in this. I encourage you to reexamine your irrational beliefs.
My work is non-salaried office employment and I have friends both at and away from the job. This weekend a group of us are going to an island in the region, an affordable day trip, especially since one friend just finished an MBA and is on a budget, but all of us try to live within our means.
Excellent! We all need a good circle of friends.
Travel, gardening, hiking, reading, and table games are all hobbies I enjoy.
Sounds good!
Anyway:
I brought back a few gifts for friends and colleagues. I purchased one cigar for a colleague of mine who is a cigar aficionado. Another colleague is a big drinker, so I got him a bottle of rum. An atheist friend of mine also likes rum so I got him a bottle too. And I got some Cuban coffee for another friend.
I gladly accepted grants as a part of my cobbled together way of paying for college. I’ve been poor, I’ve earned scholarships, I’ve accepted employer tuition reimbursement as well as gifts from my dad. But I also accepted grants. No different from ultralite accepting loan forgiveness - both govt funded. Just one is before classes are taken, and the other is after.
And I have not become a wealthy person who scorns those who accept help - I recognize that while I worked hard and paid as much as I could, there’s nothing wrong with grants and loan forgiveness either.
Sometimes people who pull themselves up from tough times, struggle to see others receive help. It’s that myth of rugged individualism that we Americans are so in love with. But it isn’t true. Lots of people helped me get where I am today.
Teacher Terry
6-6-18, 10:43am
Yppej, are you working in the field you went to college for? I am guessing some of the resentment is coming from that. Interesting that Trump voters are the ones to suffer the most from his policies. I might even feel sorry for them except for the fact that people seeking asylum have their kids ripped away and put into cages like animals. This is one reason that I am done with the electoral college since Hillary won the popular vote. While I was going to college my mom watched my kids after school, non-school days, summer etc. She would cancel her plans when one of the kids was sick. You can bet I thanked her. I don’t resent anyone with student loans and am happy I never had any.
ApatheticNoMore
6-6-18, 11:54am
Trump won due to the resentment of voters, which he tapped into. Calling them ignorant is not helpful. I am not one of them, but I understand where they are coming from. They voted against their economic self- interest (especially those on expanded Medicaid) for cultural reasons and out of anti-elitism.
Also won because Dems stayed home, and they stayed home because economic policies under a Dem president Obama sucked (some people also disliked his other policies). People who lost their jobs then and didn't quickly find another from everything I have read (and I have a perverse habit about reading about unemployment now) lived through a depression. People won't say it, they'll call it a recession, because they are too remote to get it. When one would rather be 100% party loyal (and it was no single party's fault) than understand what REALLY happened after 2008. It's like if FDR had done almost nothing back in the Great Depression. He wouldn't have been a 4 term president anyway!
When I heard one plane trip uses the fossil fuel used in a year of driving it was maybe it for me. I still drive, yes unfortunately. But I could offset that carbon use, ha, maybe if I was vegan for the entire year before hand! :laff: These are social problems too and not just individual ones, oh I know, but just like I recycle even though it is increasingly futile ...
Loans shouldn't be necessary for most of one's education--education should be looked at as a country's prudent investment in its future, affordable and heavily subsidized. I don't begrudge anyone an education--the more educated our citizenry is, the better!
Anyway:
I brought back a few gifts for friends and colleagues. I purchased one cigar for a colleague of mine who is a cigar aficionado. Another colleague is a big drinker, so I got him a bottle of rum. An atheist friend of mine also likes rum so I got him a bottle too. And I got some Cuban coffee for another friend.
Good choices - all consumables and no tchotchkes.
I did not have free healthcare in Canada. It is administered by the provinces and there was something like a 9 month waiting period to qualify as a resident and get it. This was in the 80's.
The difference between grants and loan forgiveness is grants only go to low income people. Loan forgiveness programs can benefit people whose compensation packages exceed the national median. So the effects can be a reverse Robin Hood, taking from the poor (like minimum wage workers) to give to those (like UL) who are better off than them.
The real solution is to make tuition affordable, not have the taxpayers indirectly subsidize via loan forgiveness a system with out of control spending and inflation. When you inject the government without tying subsidies to cost containment you make the problem worse.
I would also support equal benefits for everyone such as free community college for everyone.
This is a benefit of his job that any of us would take advantage of if it were offered to us.
Do people ever turn down benefits they are entitled to for the common good?
Yes they do.
For example, my father's employer was struggling and he voluntarily went to 3/4 salary while still working full time because he believed strongly in their mission.
Another example - There are people who turn down Social Security benefits they have earned, so many that the Social Security Administration created a form to do this.
You are underestimating altruism.
The difference between grants and loan forgiveness is grants only go to low income people.
I got some grants in undergrad for being low income. But they were a drop in the bucket compared to the overall cost of tuition.
Loan forgiveness programs can benefit people whose compensation packages exceed the national median.
I am doing public service for ten years. The more money I make the more money I have to pay monthly. So every raise I get means higher payments. And my raises are 3% or less or nothing.
You act like doing public service for ten years is all sunshine and rainbows. You act like the loans are just forgiven outright.
So the effects can be a reverse Robin Hood, taking from the poor (like minimum wage workers) to give to those (like UL) who are better off than them.
How much do minimum wage earners pay in taxes?
The real solution is to make tuition affordable, not have the taxpayers indirectly subsidize via loan forgiveness a system with out of control spending and inflation. When you inject the government without tying subsidies to cost containment you make the problem worse.
Hmmmm... How could we make college more affordable? Perhaps through taxes...
I would also support equal benefits for everyone such as free community college for everyone.
How could community college be made free. Do tell! I cannot wait for your ingenious plan!
The average American has been to 3 nations. 29% of US citizens have never been out of the country.
That is in many cases a personal choice not indicative of money to do so.
Do people ever turn down benefits they are entitled to for the common good?
Yes they do.
Do you?
I did not say the loans were forgiven outright, I said they were subsidized.
Public sector jobs are highly prized, as noted by others, with many applicants per job compared to most of the private sector, and with benefits packages so generous they are threatening to bankrupt places like New Jersey.
Minimum wage earners taxes paid depend on filing status, overtime worked, and other factors.
College can be made more affordable by competition from online schools and by stopping taxpayer subsidies. Would you have taken out $170,000 in loans if you had to pay it all back yourself? You are shielded, the same way people get expensive end of life care when they are terminal and in many cases don't want it, because someone else pays, a third party. Try finding how much a medical procedure will cost you. Wielding the law in hand entitling me to the information I have still had a very hard time finding this out ahead of time. People do not feel the pain of all the extra we pay in either higher education or medical costs compared to other countries.
On community college I refer you to the Bernie Sanders plan.
Yes, I have declined benefits I was eligible for including WIC.
I did not say the loans were forgiven outright, I said they were subsidized.
Public sector jobs are highly prized, as noted by others, with many applicants per job compared to most of the private sector, and with benefits packages so generous they are threatening to bankrupt places like New Jersey.
Minimum wage earners taxes paid depend on filing status, overtime worked, and other factors.
College can be made more affordable by competition from online schools and by stopping taxpayer subsidies. Would you have taken out $170,000 in loans if you had to pay it all back yourself? You are shielded, the same way people get expensive end of life care when they are terminal and in many cases don't want it, because someone else pays, a third party. Try finding how much a medical procedure will cost you. Wielding the law in hand entitling me to the information I have still had a very hard time finding this out ahead of time. People do not feel the pain of all the extra we pay in either higher education or medical costs compared to other countries.
On community college I refer you to the Bernie Sanders plan.
Yes, I have declined benefits I was eligible for including WIC.
Not taxing millionaires enough is what is bankrupting states, not public employees having a good salary and excellent benefits.
My city has huge unfunded public employee pension liabilities, and maybe a handful of millionaire next door types. The tycoons who built up the city in the 19th century and their manufacturing jobs are long gone.
iris lilies
6-6-18, 10:07pm
Not taxing millionaires enough is what is bankrupting states, not public employees having a good salary and excellent benefits.
Wrong. Public employee retirement programs are a hige cost to taxpayers. Huge.
Ultralight
6-6-18, 10:13pm
Wrong. Public employee retirement programs are a hige cost to taxpayers. Huge.
Wrong, yourself. Taxing millionaires would fix the problem. And you know this.
iris lilies
6-6-18, 10:27pm
Wrong, yourself. Taxing millionaires would fix the problem. And you know this.
Sweetie, I really do NOT know this. Seriously.
I dont know about state finances and millionaires, but I have seen tax charts that show how much of the US revenue is provided by high income earners. Do you have an idea of that? It is a large amount considering they are tiny in number. Why dont you go find aome charts and present them here, and we can discuss.
We here have been well schooled in the data that refutes “millionaires do not pat their fair share, “ schooled by a tax law professor, but I may be the only one who took the lesson to heart. You may not have been around in those days.
ApatheticNoMore
6-6-18, 11:43pm
Don't expect the whole population to vote even to tax millionaires for benefits most of them won't see though. Social security not pensions is most people's retirement program (provided they live that long). But if you suggest that if pensions are in crisis the solution is to increase social security so it doesn't matter so much (suggest it even in theory never mind if it will happen) people with insolvent pensions get upset they are not getting special benefits above and beyond what an increased SS would provide that they feel owed from insolvent plans ... Meanwhile everyone else has to live on SS (if they have other savings good but ..).
Sweetie, I really do NOT know this. Seriously.
Darlin', then you ought to get to knowin' it. Time to school yourself a bit.
I dont know about state finances and millionaires...
Thank you for first admitting your ignorance.
...but I have seen tax charts that show how much of the US revenue is provided by high income earners. Do you have an idea of that? It is a large amount considering they are tiny in number.
High income earners? How high are we talking? And are we talking about income proper or other forms of income?
Why dont you go find aome charts and present them here, and we can discuss.
Because you should do this yourself. Also: You are deeply entrenched in your own peculiar ideology to the point of it being stultifying.
We here have been well schooled in the data that refutes “millionaires do not pat their fair share, “ schooled by a tax law professor, but I may be the only one who took the lesson to heart. You may not have been around in those days.
A tax professor's refutation on an internet forum relayed to me second-hand years and years later? Holy cow! You really changed my mind.
And this, at this point, is merely you appealing to an authority. There are plenty of other authorities that dispute you and the legendary tax professor's refutation. Google them.
Don't expect the whole population to vote even to tax millionaires for benefits most of them won't see though.
I don't.
But the PSLF program was put int effect in a bipartisan move during the Bush era. Many people, even the children of working class republicans have massive student debt. Having effected them directly, these republicans care enough now to support PSLF.
iris lilies
6-7-18, 3:02pm
Darlin', then you ought to get to knowin' it. Time to school yourself a bit.
Thank you for first admitting your ignorance.
High income earners? How high are we talking? And are we talking about income proper or other forms of income?
Because you should do this yourself. Also: You are deeply entrenched in your own peculiar ideology to the point of it being stultifying.
A tax professor's refutation on an internet forum relayed to me second-hand years and years later? Holy cow! You really changed my mind.
And this, at this point, is merely you appealing to an authority. There are plenty of other authorities that dispute you and the legendary tax professor's refutation. Google them.
5% of U.S. citizens pay more than 50% of U.S. taxes. They pay nearly 60%. They pay a strong majority of taxes.
That is astonishing to me. It is “astonishing” because that seems a huge burdon for the upper 5%.
I cannot imagine why you, Teacher Terry, and others here are not satisfied with that revenue from The 5%, ya’ll want more more more.
i cannot imagine how discouraging it must be for The 5% Club to observe no brakes on Congressional spending and to wonder where it will all end. Not to mention it must be personally discouraging to be recipients of near constant hectoring about how that Club does not do their fair share.
I think they are doing their fair share. Fifty eight fooking percent is “fair.”
Over to you. What do YOU see in the chart below?
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/10/06/a-closer-look-at-who-does-and-doesnt-pay-u-s-income-tax/
I cannot imagine why you, Teacher Terry, and others here are not satisfied with that revene from The 5%, ya’ll want more more more.
I think it boils down to a desire to force equal outcomes for all, regardless of effort or merit. The only way to prevent some from achieving higher incomes is to empower a benevolent government with the means and authority to take it away from those deemed to have too much and re-distribute it to those who feel they have too little. When a more benevolent government comes along and says 'You know, I don't think that's right' it seems to piss a lot of people off.
Teacher Terry
6-7-18, 3:25pm
It has nothing to do with forced equal outcomes. It has everything to do with taking care of the most vulnerable members of society such as children and the elderly. It is not letting people go hungry or be homeless. It is providing health care for all. You still have rich , middle and the poor but providing a few basic necessities is not a bad thing. Personally I do not mind paying taxes and expect to pay accordingly.
Personally I do not mind paying taxes and expect to pay accordingly.
That's what everybody says, and I suspect they mean it too. But, what if I told you that since you make more than me, I want the government to confiscate at least 40% of the first, lets say $30K, of your household income and 90% of everything over that amount. Does that seem fair to you?
It has nothing to do with forced equal outcomes. It has everything to do with taking care of the most vulnerable members of society such as children and the elderly. It is not letting people go hungry or be homeless. It is providing health care for all. You still have rich , middle and the poor but providing a few basic necessities is not a bad thing. Personally I do not mind paying taxes and expect to pay accordingly.
+1
It sounds like Alan is suggesting that CEOs making $1B are more meritorious than the struggling single mother who is working two jobs to try to pay for her kid's education. Or someone like me, earning a good living because I lucked into my job is more meritorious than Terry, or CL, or ZG who help children and families every day. All I do is push drugs. We have a funny way in this country of assigning value to people's roles. I guess the CEO of Enron was meritorious, but the Teacher of the Year should be happy with their $50k.
iris lilies
6-7-18, 3:36pm
+1
It sounds like Alan is suggesting that CEOs making $1B are more meritorious than the struggling single mother who is working two jobs to try to pay for her kid's education. Or someone like me, earning a good living because I lucked into my job is more meritorious than Terry, or CL, or ZG who help children and families every day. All I do is push drugs. We have a funny way in this country of assigning value to their roles. I guess the CEO of Enron was meritorious, but the Teacher of the Year should be happy with their $50k.
To frame the argument here, it is about gubmnt mandated taxation. I doubt Alan is suggesting what you asvribebto him.
If you wish society to change what it values and rewards thru salaries, that is fine, but that is not THIS discussion.
By the by, I know someone in the .01%, just saw him yesterday. I know how much he makes because he was just named CFO in a publicly traded company. His compensation is well over $1million a year as stated in our city newspaper. He is a very nice guy, and very generous. back when D.h worked handyman jobs for him, he gave us extravagant restaurant coupons as gifts. One year we received two, and it was a little embarrassing to me and I almost called him to see if there was a mistake, did he really intend to give us two? Haha.
To frame the argument here, it is about gubmnt mandated taxation.
If you wish society to change what it values and rewards thru salaries, that is fine, but that is not THIS discussion.
I know someone in the .01%, just saw him yesterday. I know how much he makes because he was just bamed CFOin a publicly traded comoany. His compensation is well over $1million a year. He is a very nuce guy, and very generous.
Well, to that point, there are members of the 1% Club that agree that they pay too much. And I'm not questioning your friend's generosity or personality--I'm questioning a system that works like a Monopoly game. Over time, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer and eventually society is whacked. Game over. Look at the French and Russian Revolutions--and ours, to that point.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYNiLLN3TY
And there's Chuck Collins who wrote Born on Third Base (https://www.amazon.com/Born-Third-Base-Inequality-Committing/dp/1603586830). And there's the economist Thomas Piketty, who is not a member of the 1%, but whose analysis of wealth inequality posits that extreme inequality is simply bad for everyone.
+1
It sounds like Alan is suggesting that CEOs making $1B are more meritorious than the struggling single mother who is working two jobs to try to pay for her kid's education. Or someone like me, earning a good living because I lucked into my job is more meritorious than Terry, or CL, or ZG who help children and families every day. All I do is push drugs. We have a funny way in this country of assigning value to people's roles. I guess the CEO of Enron was meritorious, but the Teacher of the Year should be happy with their $50k.
I doubt that the top 5% of earners in this country make $1B or more, but it sound good for the sake of argument I guess. And I don't think I'm assigning value to people's roles, I've said before that I'm a free market kinda guy and realize that values are assigned to an expected return rather than to a role. A person providing a large return is more valuable in their role than a person with a lower return. We shouldn't confuse economics with social parity.
You say you push drugs as if that's a bad thing. I make drugs and I think that's a good thing, our drugs provide the most effective means of controlling addiction our current science can provide so I'll reject your collective disapproval and be proud of my role in a singular benefit to society. I suppose you could tax us out of existence and never even realize what you'd lost, and that would be a shame.
iris lilies
6-7-18, 3:51pm
Well, to that point, there are members of the 1% Club that agree that they pay too much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYNiLLN3TY
And there's Chuck Collins who wrote Born on Third Base (https://www.amazon.com/Born-Third-Base-Inequality-Committing/dp/1603586830). And there's the economist Thomas Piketty, who is not a member of the 1%, but whose analysis of wealth inequality posits that extreme inequality is simply bad for everyone.
Those who think they should pay more may always do so, there is nothing to stop them from writing checks to the gubmnt.
If they think Nanny G does an exemplary job of distributing their spare cash, go for it I say! Just dont, bill gates, speak for other mega billionaires on the planet. You, bill, get to speak for YOU and only YOU.
personally,
i like it when the 1% and the 5% and even the 10% get to exercise largesse by supporting charitable institutions they value close to home. Us local folks working the events appreciate it when the local tycoons show up at park fundraisers, library galas, and etc. —makes us feel valued.
one-size-fits-all federal gubmnt solutions, delivered impersonally by bureaucrats who may or ir may not be competent, is not the way to my heart.
Many people, even the children of working class republicans have massive student debt. Having effected them directly, these republicans care enough now to support PSLF.
It's affected not effected, I guess grammar wasn't part of your expensive education, or reading comprehension. You thought I earn 29K.
It has nothing to do with forced equal outcomes. It has everything to do with taking care of the most vulnerable members of society such as children and the elderly. It is not letting people go hungry or be homeless. It is providing health care for all. You still have rich , middle and the poor but providing a few basic necessities is not a bad thing. Personally I do not mind paying taxes and expect to pay accordingly.
UL is not vulnerable.
It's affected not effected, I guess grammar wasn't part of your expensive education, or reading comprehension. You thought I earn 29K.
Well, picking on my grammar and a simple reading mistake is probably your last refuge as you have been rhetorically spanked by me on here time and time again throughout this entire debate.
UL is not vulnerable.
Says an apparent expert on vulnerability.
Here is a pic from the trip.
2237
It's affected not effected, I guess grammar wasn't part of your expensive education, or reading comprehension. You thought I earn 29K.
WOW ... don’t you think you are superior or important? Not.
WOW ... don’t you think you are superior or important? Not.
Yppej looks down on under educated semi-literate schlubs.
Yppej looks down on under educated semi-literate schlubs.
Just consider the source. BTW .... who cares what others think. Do what is important to you and ignore those who are jealous!
Yes, I admit it. So what? I am better.... I am better than a lot of people.
I will let UL's words speak for themselves.
Yppej:
That boxed in feeling you have, uncomfortable isn't it?
Just consider the source. BTW .... who cares what others think. Do what is important to you and ignore those who are jealous!
I am not worried what Yppej thinks. haha
When I grow tired of debating with her, I will just stop. It is merely for my own amusement that I do it.
Yppej:
That boxed in feeling you have, uncomfortable isn't it?
You are so superior you can even psychoanalyze people you have never met. Has anyone nominated you for a Nobel Prize yet?
You are so superior you can even psychoanalyze people you have never met. Has anyone nominated you for a Nobel Prize yet?
Yup, I am hitting home. Huh?
Here is what I would prefer Yppej. I would prefer we stop arguing about this. I sincerely wish the best for you. I want you to enjoy your life, be happy, let go of bitterness and resentment.
At my work, certain people are above the law. They can come and go as they please. They can work four 8 hour shifts when the rest of us work five 8 hour shifts. They can decline certain types of work. They can ignore directives that the rest of us must honor.
But good on them. I wish I had that autonomy and agency. I am not one of the more privileged of my colleagues. I am happy for them though.
I used to resent them and wish they would get punished and hope the bosses would crack down on them. But just because I don't have their privileges does not mean that I want theirs to be taken away anymore.
I would rather some of us have privileges than none of us.
Make sense?
So don't begrudge me what good fortune I have had. Be certain, I have had plenty of bad fortune too. And I will definitely have more in due time.
iris lilies
6-7-18, 8:32pm
Yup, I am hitting home. Huh?
Here is what I would prefer Yppej. I would prefer we stop arguing about this. I sincerely wish the best for you. I want you to enjoy your life, be happy, let go of bitterness and resentment.
At my work, certain people are above the law. They can come and go as they please. They can work four 8 hour shifts when the rest of us work five 8 hour shifts. They can decline certain types of work. They can ignore directives that the rest of us must honor.
But good on them. I wish I had that autonomy and agency. I am not one of the more privileged of my colleagues. I am happy for them though.
I used to resent them and wish they would get punished and hope the bosses would crack down on them. But just because I don't have their privileges does not mean that I want theirs to be taken away anymore.
I would rather some of us have privileges than none of us.
Make sense?
So don't begrudge me what good fortune I have had. Be certain, I have had plenty of bad fortune too. And I will definitely have more in due time.
In the scenario you describe, if the elite group isnt putting in their time, someone else is picking up “their” work.
Unless they are super workers, but You are not describing them as such.
Or maybe your organization simply has too many employees. And who really cares about that, it is just a problem of the taxpayers space and who cares about them.
Why care about elites who take advantage of others? Maybe someday you will get to be like them. Better that the top 1% have privileges than that no one have those privileges.
Why care about elites who take advantage of others? Maybe someday you will get to be like them. Better that the top 1% have privileges than that no one have those privileges.
You are making a false equivalency.
Teacher Terry
6-8-18, 1:02am
UL doesn’t own a house but you do which is great. It’s all about choices. I would hope that those of us who are not murderers, pedaphiles, etc are better than those that are. I think that is what UL was saying. Not that he is better than everyone. Besides my dogs are better people than all of us:~)
iris lilies
6-8-18, 1:57am
UL doesn’t own a house but you do which is great. It’s all about choices. I would hope that those of us who are not murderers, pedaphiles, etc are better than those that are. I think that is what UL was saying. Not that he is better than everyone. Besides my dogs are better people than all of us:~)
Haha, yes.
Besides my dogs are better people than all of us:~) Yes!
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