View Full Version : 1st sticky situation with neighbor
So, with this whole common land deal, I figured some issues could come up.
First off, let me say that my next-door neighbor is a really nice guy--from rural VT. He has 3 kids from about 10-17, and they are really good kids. Polite, hard-working etc. He's a nice guy. His uncle owns the house to the left of me and to the right of me, but "Peter" used to spend summers here just like I used to in CT, so he has strong ties to the area although this is his first year actually owning his own place. He bought the house from his uncle this spring.
He is a true McGiver and incredible worker. He is constantly fixing, jerry-rigging, you name it. So one day I noticed that one of the small trees lining the shore was missing. And yesterday he said to me, "So I just wanted to let you know that Im going to be cutting down all the vegetation and burning it. Is that OK with you?"
Gulp. DH and I made up our. minds we wouldn't make waves this year. But: a) burning brush is an environmental no-no.
But b) I am really opposed to him removing the vegetation! For all the environmental reasons that a shoreline needs a good buffer! Erosion, prevention of excess nutrients from run-off, habitat protection. Aesthetics, etc etc.
So I lamely said, "Well, I'm the new kid on the block, but I wouldn't mind if you kept the vegetation, to prevent erosion." That was all I could muster at the moment. And he countered with, "Yeah, but some of that stuff takes hold and it's impossible to get rid of."
I have a fantastic pdf that I printed out a couple of months ago designed for people looking to encourage healthy lakes in VT. It has a really nice page on "What is a Buffer and Why Do We Need it?" Then on that last page, there's FAQ, and one question is "If I want to plant a garden can I remove the existing vegetation?" And apparently the answer is no, 250ft from the shore is protected by the Shoreline Protection Act and you have to pull a permit.
What do I do?? Hand him the information sheet? Tell him about the restrictions? Keep my mouth shut? Or risk being that hoity-toity environmentalist? If it were his land, I would keep my mouth shut, but my taxes give me just as much of a stake in the lakefront as his are.
Well, what should I do?
PS. I hate confrontation more than anything.
Our lake is Corp of engineers owned. No lake house owns to the lake the Corp owns the frontage. You cut or burn there is a huge fine. Dock permits are hard to get. You maybe better check the regulations. Id hate for all the homeowners to be charged a fee based on one guys actions.
iris lilies
6-29-18, 5:59pm
I am not sure about specifics and have gotta run, but make sure you are ready to provide reliable habnds on help to maintain tjis area neatly and to the standards of this tree cutting guy.
As newbies to our Herman nabe, we are the burners.
Educating your neighbor is not a confrontation.
I would go over there with the PDF. Let him know you were aware that there were lake preservation guidelines and you have now learned it's actually law. So please, do not remove anything from behind our home. I want to be a good steward here in Vermont.
We are also dealing with ALL of our neighbors who seem to be clueless about environmental reasons for doing or not doing certain things. The amount of watering bluegrass lawns drives me nuts. And the amount of pesticide and weed killers. For now, we are keeping our mouths shut as we realize we are the newcomers and they've been doing what they've always done. My take is that some people just don't get it.
Educating your neighbor is not a confrontation.
I would go over there with the PDF. Let him know you were aware that there were lake preservation guidelines and you have now learned it's actually law. So please, do not remove anything from behind our home. I want to be a good steward here in Vermont.
+1
Been there , done that and earned my neighbour's respect for holding my ground. He is not being respectful.
Catherine, I can't remember if you own any of the land, and if he does, and if the commonly owned land is the shore itself, or do guys own some of the shore? I also can't remember if there is an HOA for the commonly owned land?
Catherine, I can't remember if you own any of the land, and if he does, and if the commonly owned land is the shore itself, or do guys own some of the shore? I also can't remember if there is an HOA for the commonly owned land?
The land directly on the shoreline and going back several feet (but well within that 250 ft restricted area) is common land--we all own it all. We own our own little slivers until we get to that point.
No HOA--the lawyers had assured us that "everyone just works it out."
Edited to add the picture: This was taken before he removed the tree (see the lower right in the photo). IL, as you can see, it's not a jungle of vegetation. It's a nice neat buffer, and I was hoping at some point to add to it with perennial pollinator plants.
2295
The land directly on the shoreline and going back several feet (but well within that 250 ft restricted area) is common land--we all own it all. We own our own little slivers until we get to that point.
No HOA--the lawyers had assured us that "everyone just works it out."
Edited to add the picture: This was taken before he removed the tree (see the lower right in the photo). IL, as you can see, it's not a jungle of vegetation. It's a nice neat buffer, and I was hoping at some point to add to it with perennial pollinator plants.
2295
Is that the tree he removed? Oh dear, I can see why you are upset. Did he approach you or your husband? Did he approach the other landowners? It does not sound like this barrier should be removed, for the reasons you say.
Williamsmith
6-29-18, 7:52pm
I scanned the Shoreline Protection Act PDF and I’m not at all sure that the activity you described isn’t exempt so if it were me I’d be careful not to confront him. For instance, could this area be described as existing lawn needing to be maintained? Prior to this act being placed into law, was this common area lawn all the way down to the shoreline. If it was, the way I read it, an exemption exists because that’s the way it was before the law ever came into existence. Are there any noxious weeds, invasive species, nuisance plants, or diseased trees anywhere in his target zone?
I scanned the Shoreline Protection Act PDF and I’m not at all sure that the activity you described isn’t exempt so if it were me I’d be careful not to confront him. For instance, could this area be described as existing lawn needing to be maintained? Prior to this act being placed into law, was this common area lawn all the way down to the shoreline. If it was, the way I read it, an exemption exists because that’s the way it was before the law ever came into existence. Are there any noxious weeds, invasive species, nuisance plants, or diseased trees anywhere in his target zone?
Is this the one you looked at? http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/wsm/lakes/docs/Shoreland/ShorelandProtectionActSummary_2272017.pdf
I do not believe there are any of those types of plants/trees in the target area, but I can't be sure. I'm pretty sure he just wants rid of them. DH says he wants to put a beach in, which won't work because the lake rises almost up to our houses in the spring. (Another reason to maintain a vegetative buffer.)
There are several different issues going on, IMO.
!. Is he changing the shared shoreline without consultation?
2. Has the current shoreline existed this way as part of a buffer plan developed over years of experience?
3. Has he full understanding of the options that are fully possible and which are not or at least no beneficial?
4. Does he know how much he doesn't know of the consequences of his actions on all the properties?
I think that you need some guidance from a knowledgeable third party if that is possible.
Many good points raised here and I suspect the law should take hold.
Failing that, a suggestion for a compromise: if your neighbor can identify specific invasive/noxious plants, how about pulling those and replacing them with native plants agreeable to you?
Williamsmith
6-29-18, 9:43pm
Is this the one you looked at? http://dec.vermont.gov/sites/dec/files/wsm/lakes/docs/Shoreland/ShorelandProtectionActSummary_2272017.pdf
I do not believe there are any of those types of plants/trees in the target area, but I can't be sure. I'm pretty sure he just wants rid of them. DH says he wants to put a beach in, which won't work because the lake rises almost up to our houses in the spring. (Another reason to maintain a vegetative buffer.)
Yes.
I think the only way to know if he is in violation of a law....is to consult the DEC. And if you get them involved, I’m pretty sure you will not endear yourself to the neighbors. I don’t think you are going to negotiate anything with your neighbor. You are a newbie.....from Jersey. And finally, are you sure there aren’t any technical violations of any other law that you or your house is in? It can stink to be in the barrel next.
catherine
6-29-18, 10:18pm
Yes.
And if you get them involved, I’m pretty sure you will not endear yourself to the neighbors. I don’t think you are going to negotiate anything with your neighbor. You are a newbie.....from Jersey.
Yeah, there's the rub. DH is petrified of my bringing this up. My kids have already told us multiple times that our twin set of NJ plates are putting a target on our backs up here as it is. Then, to come in like know-it-all flatlanders and presume to know better than our neighbors will be social suicide. DH has said that if I insist on talking to our neighbor, he will do it--DH is an "Everyman" who gets along with everyone.
We'll see what happens.
iris lilies
6-29-18, 10:31pm
I will bet you DH will finesse that situation as best can be done.
Edited, I did t read what the neighbor was trying to achieve.
There are several different issues going on, IMO.
!. Is he changing the shared shoreline without consultation? He did ask me, kind of, after he had started it (i.e., tear out tree)
2. Has the current shoreline existed this way as part of a buffer plan developed over years of experience? I don't know. Not to my knowledge
3. Has he full understanding of the options that are fully possible and which are not or at least no beneficial? Not yet--this is where my "education" would come in
4. Does he know how much he doesn't know of the consequences of his actions on all the properties? No
I think that you need some guidance from a knowledgeable third party if that is possible.
I may just approach it like, "Let's work on this together--check into possibilities as well as local restrictions, we can plan an area that can be used for recreation and plan an area that can be cultivated. And get the other neighbors involved with their thoughts and opinions" (There are 10 neighbor/landowners--this shouldn't be just between him and me.)
I may just approach it like, "Let's work on this together--check into possibilities as well as local restrictions, we can plan an area that can be used for recreation and plan an area that can be cultivated. And get the other neighbors involved with their thoughts and opinions" (There are 10 neighbor/landowners--this shouldn't be just between him and me.)
Great ideas--my husband said why not have them over for dinner to talk about it, and I said, well, there's more involved, the neighbors, so maybe have a barbecue for everyone to talk about how to handle the shore issue.
But then I thought, boy, that could be one unpleasant barbecue--I am not good at confrontation and conflict, either.
But you have to get the other people involved too, as it is not just you and him.
I just don't know quite how to do that, and wonder if he has approached other neighbors, too.
Williamsmith
6-30-18, 8:41am
I’m looking forward to the updates on this. I know I’ve seen several movies with a similar plot. Well meaning newcomer with different ideas tries to “educate” the locals.
And what's the last scene in that movie? Newcomers high-tailing it back home with Prius trunk stuffed with their belongings happy to get back to their permaculture meet-ups in NJ, or the local sheriff wondering about the strange smell of rotting flesh coming from the bottom of the incinerated pile of brush?
Williamsmith
6-30-18, 9:09am
And what's the last scene in that movie? Newcomers high-tailing it back home with Prius trunk stuffed with their belongings happy to get back to their permaculture meet-ups in NJ, or the local sheriff wondering about the strange smell of rotting flesh coming from the bottom of the incinerated pile of brush?
I know.....it’s hyperbole. Used to describe the hopefully minor discomfort of interpersonal relationships with people of different cultures and experiences. Perhaps to be more to the point. Is this a cause worth pursuing? That’s what your OP seemed to be saying, given the possible responses you might get weighed against your conservation and environmentalist convictions. It’s hard to reel in.....once you cast out. As I say, I look forward to your updates and hope this is just a minor inconvenience that you find a solution to for all involved.
I’m looking forward to the updates on this. I know I’ve seen several movies with a similar plot. Well meaning newcomer with different ideas tries to “educate” the locals.
The way I read the law, if i am reading the right one, is that the protection act came into effect in 2014, and old usages are grandfathered in. It seems to be aimed at new development. But it also lays out the rationale for the buffer, and says you can't remove the buffer if it is already there, or if you had to cut a dead tree, you have to leave the roots.
Everybody knows (local or not) that fish need the buffer, and so do birds.
So I am not getting your emphasis, Williamsmith, on Catherine being some person coming in from Jersey and educating the locals. She is trying to understand and abide by the law. I don't see why she should not have to obey the local Vermont law just because she is from New Jersey.
If someone were trying to bully me because I was not "from around here" it would piss me off and make me stand my ground. But then, I am from Georgia.
I do get moving into an area where you are a flatlander/outsider. We did it in upstate New York. It took 10 years before people starting talking to us. I would not repeat that experience for anything.
Catherine, do you really feel you have a target on your back for having NJ plates? Is there a lot of animosity to people coming in now? I thought that area was full of people "from away" as they say in Maine.
Catherine, do you really feel you have a target on your back for having NJ plates? Is there a lot of animosity to people coming in now? I thought that area was full of people "from away" as they say in Maine.
Well, let me put it this way in terms of how Vermonters feel about outsiders. I was at a pre-wedding event in Brandon, VT a couple of years ago, and I met one of the locals. I asked him a few small talk questions and he said that his family has been in Vermont since the Civil War. So I said to him, "Oh! So you're ALMOST a real Vermonter!" And he laughed, knowing what I meant.
Once you get outside of Burlington you are treading on "real Vermonter" territory, and I do believe they take notice. But this is a town that quadruples its population in the summer, so we're not the only outsiders. Our neighbors come from Long Island, Montreal, Connecticut and Florida. Overall, we've found the folks to be extremely welcoming, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I already have a more robust social life than I do in NJ.
I just don't want to nip that in the bud.
I do get moving into an area where you are a flatlander/outsider.
Outsider mentality is everywhere and sometimes you have to tread carefully to keep the peace. Here it is those obnoxious Texans and liberal Californians. In Texas, it was just Californians of any stripe. I made sure to get the TX plates off the car ASAP. Irony is I was born in Colorado as were my parents and grandparents.
I suspect that other neighbours may be aware of the need for buffers and your 'tree-removal neighbour' is the real newbie. Just because he came visiting his uncle over the years does to give him a pass to make changes to the shoreline without consultation with the neighbours.
If your DH does the talking over a beer or similar, I would give him the tools of information. One person's impulsive idea of how things should be will upset those other neighbours who have been coming and paying the expenses/consequences for years. Consultations enable discussion leading to great shared ideas.
A knowledgeable person does not have to be the law itself but a respected neighbour living right there for years and seeing the cycles of weather and impact. It could be enough to set your mind at ease and let you relax.
catherine
7-25-18, 10:49am
Update on this...
I haven't yet broached the subject, but neither has my neighbor brought his mowers down to the lakefront. He's doing other projects at the moment.
But I do think that his view is the more predominant view. DH and I were over at one of the other neighbor's homes, and they were talking about how "quirky" the prior owner of our home was. For background, the previous owner is about 30, and has a degree in some type of marine environmental science. He's totally into permaculture, and our neighbors were talking about his strange "inventions" and projects--like raising tilapia in the back yard and having water filtrations systems via vegetation around the property.
So, our friend said, "So I used to tell M__, 'Hey, M__, are you going to cut the lawn anytime soon?'" (meaning his part of the property adjacent the common lakeshore). Our friend continued, "And he would say, 'Do you know how many frogs are in there?' He didn't want to cut the lawn because of erosion and things, but that's not why we bought here." (italics mine)
So that's the prevailing attitude. I kept my mouth shut. But I have a plan. The water in our little bay is really infested with milfoil, and while the blue algae is not unsafe, it's still a mess. So we were talking about that, and I think that's where I can maybe start. Because it's a community concern, I've found out who the local experts are in harvesting the weeds and excess ickiness. If I move that project along, that will make me feel better from an environmental point of view and it will address some of their concerns as well.
Teacher Terry
7-25-18, 10:54am
That’s a great plan.
It is, Catherine. Maine, where my son lives, is totally into watersheds and water quality and they send folks around to look at the little stream in his backyard and they get intense about things. So if you use the milfoil at get the state environmental reps involved, they may have things to say about the whole lakeshore where you are that will start a process of education and improvement.
catherine
10-10-18, 8:24am
Well, the summer is over :(
My neighbors have all pretty much left for the winter. One of my neighbors is back at her home sitting in the trees on weekends with her gun and camo hoping to bag a buck. One of my neighbors is undergoing a below-the-knee amputation due to unsuccessful attempts at addressing ankle bone issues, but he and his wife will probably spend the whole summer up here next year, which I welcome as they are fun people. The other neighbor (the one that's mower-happy) is back at his central Vermont home, out in his yard cutting down trees for the 6 cords of wood that he uses to heat his house all winter, and his kids are in school. There are other neighbors, too--a new neighbor--even newer than DH and I! They seem really really nice. And another neighbor I just recently got to know. Her husband died suddenly 2 years ago, but she's been coming up here more often this year, and she and I are now founding members of the new lakeshore restoration association.
I never pushed my environmental agenda, but I'm pretty confident consensus can be formed organically over time as we identify common goals. My son is looking to buy a small camper to park in our yard. He's spent every day off up here.
I didn't get half, or even a quarter, of the things done I wanted to do, but that's OK. There's always next summer. We'll be packing up and leaving late October.
So ends our Big Adventure in Vermont 2018.
In case you guys didn't see this SNL skit about Vermont, I thought this was pretty funny.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=2&v=nKcUOUYzDXA
Williamsmith
10-10-18, 9:06pm
Occasionally, as you travel my area of the country, you’ll notice a house with a large confederate battle flag either draped out a window or nailed to a barn. All rebel....no southerner in em at all. If they’d have been asked to fight for Dixie, they’d have fled to Mexico.
catherine
10-11-18, 12:28pm
Occasionally, as you travel my area of the country, you’ll notice a house with a large confederate battle flag either draped out a window or nailed to a barn. All rebel....no southerner in em at all. If they’d have been asked to fight for Dixie, they’d have fled to Mexico.
We all have to hang on to the rebel in us.. one way or the other.
Williamsmith
10-12-18, 8:08am
My SIL and her siblings inherited a cottage on a seasonal lake not far from me. They have an old pontoon boat docked right there and when the kids were small we used to go out for the day. We’d get on the boat and anchor offshore in a deep spot and all go swimming. They had boat parades during the Fourth of July, and fireworks. We sat around a fire ring at night and made s’mores, got bit by mosquitoes and talked. The kids fished off the dock.
The cottage itself wasnt fit to be in during the winter as it had little insulation and was cobbled together with an addition here and there. Mostly though it was and still is a relic of the past when people couldn’t afford to go far for vacation. So over the years it’s need repairs which I did because I was local and had the tools.
The wife and I can agree on one thing. If we ever decided to move again, it would be to a small lake house. There’s something about sitting on your porch and looking out over a lake with all its subtle activity going on, watching ducks congregate in the protected canal for the night, seeing and hearing a flock of geese, wondering about who is in the fishing boat on there and what are they talking about, looking into the shallow water at the bluegills milling around. And watching the seasonal neighbors come and go.
I think you got a good thing going there.
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