doing contract work

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'm doing contract work now. It's expected to last 6 months, could definitely be less as noone knows how long funding will last, not expect to be more, but sure it's a non-zero possibility of it being more. This after 10-11 months of unemployment, it really was the best I could get. Commute is about an hour each way from me, not even remotely near my bf but ....

The job market is SO tough out there (I mean maybe not at the *very* low end, a fast food place has a hiring sign etc., and that is maybe what they mean when they say "the job market is good", but I do have some professional skills here, and you can't live off those wages - nor can you live off contract work unless it's regular - true dat). I feel there are plenty of very well qualified candidates for nearly every job including sometimes for contract positions, but *especially* for full time work, they are picky! True, true, how I lost my last job didn't help me any. I was fired. I made a mistake. Many, many people don't get fired for making a mistake. I fricken know. But I wasn't at that company long and I was hated by a bully who bullied me the whole time, and they had the pull in the organization I didn't, to get me fired, without warnings, yes of course, that's what is meant by "at will employment". So I have to start again to move on from that, and this is a start.

But I can't live like this forever. I don't even know how to, although if contracts are regular I suppose it's possible. I don't think I even have it me to be the best and brightest you have to be to get a full time job at least in this line of work. I'm smart enough, I'm not entirely lazy :~) and can sometimes work for things. But I think long and hard about what personal assets I could ever have to get me to a better place and I think "it's not enough .... it's simply not enough, the best I have just isn't going to be". But even the losers get lucky sometimes :~). And getting a job is part many other things and a decent part pure luck, and I've been lucky in the past, but maybe it's just so much harder now than it ever was then (including in 2011). It sure seems so. It's just so tough out there.

Money I don't know, first I need to pay off a credit card that I bought some new work clothes with, well I didn't buy clothes almost at all the whole time I was unemployed, and I've never had a closet you can shop in, and yes you gotta look the part (if my last horrible job taught me anything it's how much non-work relevant factors matter in keeping work, although my clothes were not the issue there). Then it's hard to say, it's hard to say whether to even bother saving for retirement for the time being or anything as it's so much easier to just save for the next catastrophe (unemployment). I guess I'll put aside something even if it's quite a small % for retirement, it's the triumph of hope over experience but hope is not to be dismissed. And save all the rest for catastrophe, well really if one lives on nothing for 10-11 months one does have some things they want to buy so I will spend some, but not on credit - other than those work clothes, the future is too unpredictable. It was pure doing without of course because what else if one is unemployed, but a day to day focus on survival, so even things that I needed replaced and stuff I didn't buy then, unless it was about survival. Though, I bought a car while unemployed :laff: Well yes, I'm broke, long time unemployed, working contract, but I have a shiny few years old car fully paid for :laff: Yea well, an accident (noone hurt) and I needed it. I'm certainly using it now with my long commute.

I got extremely depressed unemployed, not so much initially but by the end (every fricken study shows this that people tend to get more and more depressed the longer they are involuntarily unemployed). Better to work for now (I mean work is work, it's far from paradise, but compared to long term involuntary unemployment which is almost the worst thing you could ever wish on a person ... it got to the point where there were days I thought: I'd rather have cancer (than the disease of unemployment). And I started fantasizing about going to prison because even the life of a fricken inmate, sitting in a cell, waking up when they wake you, eating when and what they tell you, would probably be more meaningful than another day of sending out resumes ... it just becomes so meaningless.

[Yppej]

At one networking group I went to an HR person told me she was doing contract work because the only thing potential employers ask about is why you left the last place, and contract was up is a good answer. This was not my experience - people did ask about previous jobs - but I hope it is yours. Certainly lifetime employment is rare these days, and some interviewers will have been fired themselves and understand.

If you save for retirement in a Roth IRA you can withdraw the funds in case of an emergency without penalty because contributions are made with post-tax dollars. Only the interest cannot be withdrawn. I got that tip from Suze Orman.

Good luck to you in your assignment. You will get used to the commute. Mine is longer and I did. It is my new normal.

[Teacher Terry]

Have you applied for government jobs. I don’t know how old you are but age discrimination could be at play. In our state we also provide no cost retraining for unemployed people. It’s very hard financially and emotionally to be in your situation. My husband got laid off because his job was eliminated at 53 from a county job as a engineer with tons of experience. We read about it in the paper before they told him. In the past 6 years he has only had 2 contract jobs. If we were willing to move to Texas he could have been employed. Luckily we didn’t have to.

[Tybee]

It sounds like you feel very discouraged. Is moving to a different area where there might be more jobs a possibility?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Government work seems to be mostly contract these days (I'm not contracting with government at present). They are probably doing that because of pensions (the Fed gov can manage their pensions, they can create money, but states, cities, counties - no). It's actually probably why present company is doing so much contract work as well but shrug.

But there is no risk of paying a contractor a pension. So administrative functions (I'm I.T. so that's me) have largely though not entirely (there's always a small chance of getting in) moved to contract for local government work. It's funny because the last thing in the world I expect from life is a pension, it's beyond my wildest imaginings as they were gone for my generation and younger. It's nothing I'd ask from a job. I'd be happy with a bit more job security and employer healthcare which contractors work without. Yea there is a level of ridiculousness to local government work now, where people who got in are hoping for their pensions and contractors worry about how they can even keep affording ever increasing ACA premiums entirely out of pocket.

I got close to a government job, it would have been a 3 year contract but good chance of going full time. But I didn't get it. I interviewed for another government 1 year contract, probably wouldn't turn full time at that one as it was the more typical short term government contract work that exists now.

[ApatheticNoMore]

In our state we also provide no cost retraining for unemployed people.

they provide that, I had no idea what to retrain in, plus they were cagey, they suggested you could ONLY get approved for retraining closely related to work you had previously done, not to get into a new field. And I wondered if that would do me any good. I can't say that I know. I had no idea what retraining in a new or my existing field would actually lead to work. They leave all that on you, although they talk about what doesn't work (aka they say "don't get into medical, everything but nursing requires 2 years experience and you can't just get in. we won't approve that" etc., and hint "don't try to train for something entirely new". Ok so I know what doesn't work according to them but ...

Sure, I encountered a lot of people that just take the free benefit, and go "hey free education! free stuff!!! stuff that's usually not free, FREE!!! woohoo!". I don't knock the program at all, I don't knock training or help to the unemployed (although the #1 help to the unemployed is money period), but my goal wasn't actually "get all the free stuff you can" but trying to make a life for myself, using free stuff or not, that was less important to me than that it lead somewhere, which honestly was a conversation I tried to have with them several times. But they aren't really in the career guidance business just the handing out benefits business. And I was lost. And well all the guidance in the world maybe only does so much good if there just aren't decent jobs in almost anything, which might be so, that all the work that pays enough to live off of is fiercely competitive.

[Gardenarian]

I hope the new job goes okay. Because it's a contract position, does that mean you'll still have to be on the lookout for permanent jobs? Or do you have to be on best behavior hoping the contract will be extended?

I've nearly always worked for the government (public or university libraries) and have little knowledge of what careers are like on the outside. Being fired for a mistake would not happen in the places I worked.

It sounds like you and your boyfriend aren't able to see much of each other due to your job situations. I'm so sorry about that.

Any plans for that long commute? I don't like driving and that would be really hard for me. Some people like the time to transition - difficult to imagine.

[Miss Cellaneous]

ApatheticNoMore--I was laid off in 2010. Spent the next two and a half years as my father's primary caregiver, as he broke his hip two weeks after I was laid off. Then tried to get a job. Ha!

I temped, I was a contractor. I took a part-time retail job and freelanced. I finally got hired at a company where I temped for three years (long-term, 6-12 month temp assignments) before they hired me full-time, permanently.

In my case, I think it was partly my age (I'm over 50) and partly the nearly three-year gap in my employment.

As you say, there are help wanted signs all over the place around here--Macy's, McDonalds, Walmart. Walmart is offering guaranteed 40 hours a week at $10/hour with benefits, which . . . isn't bad? But it isn't great. $400 a week after taxes--you would spend more than half of that on the rent of a one-bedroom apartment in a not-so-great area, at least around here. "Full-time" at Macy's is 28 hours a week, starting at $11/hour, with benefits after you've worked a year. With a constantly changing schedule that includes evenings and weekends, so that it is next to impossible to have another job to earn something close to a living wage. Oh, you have the opportunity to pick up extra hours, but the reality is that scheduling has been cut so much that unless someone gets sick and calls out, there are no extra hours to pick up.

There are lots of minimum or close to minimum wage jobs going begging. But getting a professional job? There is a ton of temp and contract work, with very few permanent hires. A friend of mine took a "temp to perm" job and after 6 months he was let go. He learned from others at that company that he was the 6th person to "temp to perm" there and "not work out." Clearly, that company is luring good people in with the hope of a permanent job, and letting them go when it is convenient, so they don't have the expense of another permanent employee. If the manager is telling the permanent employees not to tell the new "temp to perm" how many others have had that job, you know something is up.

I'm kinda, sorta, looking for a better job. Indeed and Glassdoor keep sending me lovely jobs, halfway across the country. Very few companies seem to be hiring permanent, upper-level professional employees right now, at least not around here. My company still has a ton of temps working for months, even years, without the offer of a permanent job.

[lmerullo]

I was laid off from my 25+ year humble when the boss closed the business. He offered me two-part time jobs at two other businesses he iwned, but I only took one. After three years of semiretirement, I began seeking full time emoloyment. It just wasn't out there - in there months I had one phone call, and one real interview.

Then, I applied for a part time temp position, and got it right away. It has been over a year, and my two full time days have become three, and it's permanent...I still work two five hour days for boss #1.

I have no benefits and don't need a full time salary, so it's worked out for me.

Maybe something to consider? Piecing together part time work into a full week can often pay more upfront since they don't have to pay all the benefits of full timers. Also, someone else covers my work on my off days during a regular week, so I don't feel the guilt or obligation to perform even when on vacation.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I hope the new job goes okay. Because it's a contract position, does that mean you'll still have to be on the lookout for permanent jobs? Or do you have to be on best behavior hoping the contract will be extended?

look out for permanent jobs really, because the contract being extended is entirely out of my control. I mean sure it's better to do well than badly in terms of getting kept on were an extension to happen etc., I mean obviously. But the extension itself is ENTIRELY about funding etc.it seems. Not in my control and not that likely.


I've nearly always worked for the government (public or university libraries) and have little knowledge of what careers are like on the outside. Being fired for a mistake would not happen in the places I worked.

I'm sure that perception also exists out there, that people don't get fired lightly, and it just adds more bias in the job market against people who have when you have to be asked the question why you left your last job. But you can of course, it's at will employment. Bureaucratic organizations won't do it that way of course, but some of the small flaky places ... they'll be flaky.


It sounds like you and your boyfriend aren't able to see much of each other due to your job situations. I'm so sorry about that.

he's now interviewing for a 1 year contract position on the even more other side of town, different hours etc. (my hours are kind of flexible, but what I'm doing now is the closest to standard hours without even worse commuting). He has a full time job now. Yea I wouldn't lightly leave a full time job for contract, but he has his reasons to interview and since they are pretty complex, I can't evaluate, ok I might not do it, but they are actually good reasons.


Any plans for that long commute? I don't like driving and that would be really hard for me. Some people like the time to transition - difficult to imagine.

I take it mostly in silence, except when I'm stuck in traffic, then I check traffic reports on the radio :) I don't like it but it's not as bad as I thought. I admit it leaves me tired. At least they gave me flexible hours (8 hour day but times are flexible).

[ApatheticNoMore]

The job market I don't know it's hard to say entirely what is oneself and skillset (although frankly my work record reads quite decent IMO, however skills might not be that much demanded shrug, of they may be oversupplied), what is location (I don't even know if other locations are better), what is the job market in general these days, what is just random bad luck (fooled by randomness style). But I suspect the economy is not really what we are being told it is for sure!


But getting a professional job? There is a ton of temp and contract work, with very few permanent hires.

I was in a group for unemployed people seeking professional jobs. There was struggle for sure. And frankly struggle for people with what I would think were great credentials (I would think for sure I'd get hired if I had those credentials - but ...).

So one thing I actually can say FOR SURE is having a real struggle finding professional jobs was NOT JUST ME. Some landed, but I'm not the only one contracting, some took temp work, some are still looking. The person working at the local unemployment office said it's taking people 6 months to a year to get a job these days (and unemployment only lasts 6 months, yea a lot of people in a world of hurt - anyone who tells you you only need 3-6 months saved for unemployment is blowing smoke up your @#$). The job market for professional skills may be broken, really and truly. Meanwhile low paid jobs don't pay enough to live off of.

What it was like for me was employers were almost expecting something magical, they weren't even looking for skillsets and decent experience, they were almost looking for life paths, someone who had done a lot of things that were exactly what they were looking for that are seldom even found together. I got interviews when I hit magic buttons like this. It was completely an employers market where the standard seemed to be perfection and employers were almost like people going on dates rejecting everything (no second dates) until love at first sight was found.

I lack the words to describe the crazy, at a certain level of crazy I think all one can do is walk away, try another career, something. Not that there were many options there (there didn't seem to be any I could access almost), but trying to make sense of the crazy just became crazy itself.

[herbgeek]

Just before the last recession, I was laid off when an exec from a famous company came in, purged, and brought her own team in. I decided to try self employment for a while in a totally different field but found I'm not good at marketing myself, so went back to look for a job in software development. I had been in software testing most of my career, but wanted to do project management. I looked hard for 2 1/2 years. This is with having an engineering BS and an MBA and several certifications. I worked for an entrepreneur for free for a few months just to have something recent on the resume. I finally landed a position, at a significant $ reduction ( though to be fair my last jobs were management, and this one was not). The job is ok, not great, but better than being unemployed. Something has fundamentally changed in the workplace.

[SteveinMN]

What it was like for me was employers were almost expecting something magical, they weren't even looking for skillsets and decent experience, they were almost looking for life paths, someone who had done a lot of things that were exactly what they were looking for that are seldom even found together. I got interviews when I hit magic buttons like this. It was completely an employers market where the standard seemed to be perfection and employers were almost like people going on dates rejecting everything (no second dates) until love at first sight was found.
I think it is that way all over now. Even six years ago in my Corporate Day Job, job openings were aimed at unicorns, ideal candidates who almost could not possibly have all the quailfications desired. I've seen ads from clueless recruiters looking for ten years' experience in development languages that haven't even been around ten years. Some of the specification comes about when the hiring manager really wants someone internal but the rules force him/her to advertise openly for candidates. Voila -- no one on the outside is qualified, so (s)he can hire who (s)he really wanted in the first place. But some of it is that there doesn't seem to be room for people to grow into jobs anymore. You hit the ground running -- or you get run over.


I lack the words to describe the crazy, at a certain level of crazy I think all one can do is walk away, try another career, something. Not that there were many options there (there didn't seem to be any I could access almost), but trying to make sense of the crazy just became crazy itself.
I hold no illusions, that, six years out of what I was last doing in IT (and now pushing 60) I'd get a job in IT again, unless I was willing to go way down the ladder and, even then, I'd likely be considered either overqualified or too old. Not sure my ego needs that much of a bruising.

I recently received a LinkedIn invitation (from someone I didn't know) so to stop the "nag" I logged into LinkedIn for the first time in several months. I see very little movement among my connections. I'm not sure if they're finding LI as "useful" as I am and just not noting their own new jobs or if there simply aren't moves to be made. Based on conversations I have had with former coworkers (a much smaller sample), no one seems to be moving around much at all (many of them are just hanging on until they can retire and hoping not to get bought out). So, yeah, landing career-type full-time employment seems problematic. Less than that? Maybe not doing so well, either. :(

[catherine]

ANM, I hope the contract job works out OK. Sounds like a rough commute, but often a "foot in the door" works out more long-term in one way or the other. My career in market research started out as a temp job in word processing in a market research company, which I very reluctantly took.

I hope it works out for you.

[Miss Cellaneous]

And let's not forget that all this temp and contract and part-time work has no benefits attached. No paid sick days, no paid vacation, no paid holidays, no health insurance, no pension or 401(k).

[ApatheticNoMore]

And let's not forget that all this temp and contract and part-time work has no benefits attached. No paid sick days, no paid vacation, no paid holidays, no health insurance, no pension or 401(k)

this is largely true, however California passed a law recently requiring all employees even contractors get sick days in this state, only about 3 a year though is required. I think some other states like NY have been passing sick time too.

[Yppej]

If we had national health insurance provided by the government businesses would have one less excuse to not hire permanently older workers, who they stereotype as sicker.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If we had national health insurance provided by the government businesses would have one less excuse to not hire permanently older workers, who they stereotype as sicker.

It is likely a factor but it is not the only thing that is going on that adds to the perception among older job hunters that age discrimination is getting worse, actually in some cases getting into an wall that can't be scaled, and "things didn't used to be like this". They probably didn't for older workers in the economy, maybe the economy has changed (for all workers), sure seems so, but also the laws have been changing. People don't know that, but this is part of why the 50+ job seeker can't find work:

https://www.propublica.org/article/americans-age-discrimination-eroding-protection-under-the-law

I don't know to what extent I really hit discrimination, early 40s, maybe, not as clear cut as if I was over 50. So I talk to a contractor coworker who has been contracting since 2009 (interesting year, yea), he blames immigration (H1Bs, plus bad immigrant recruiters) and outsourcing. He's not white if you want to think "typical Trump voter" or something (but I do sometimes say: this is why Trump is president, though I have no idea how the guy votes). And my coworker could be right, I mean you would think it would have to have an effect, so I don't dismiss it but at the same time I don't know the scale of it. He mentions he wishes he could change careers but is too old, I ask sincerely "what is too old?" because I wonder, I wonder what the job market thinks.

But as for the very real age discrimination that people are hitting, which makes the "am I too old to change careers" and "am I too old to work period" relevant, yea, it's part health care expenses but also it's become de facto not illegal so companies got the green light to discriminate on age and do.

[SteveinMN]

I don't know to what extent I really hit discrimination, early 40s, maybe, not as clear cut as if I was over 50. So I talk to a contractor coworker who has been contracting since 2009 (interesting year, yea), he blames immigration (H1Bs, plus bad immigrant recruiters) and outsourcing. He's not white if you want to think "typical Trump voter" or something (but I do sometimes say: this is why Trump is president, though I have no idea how the guy votes). And my coworker could be right, I mean you would think it would have to have an effect, so I don't dismiss it but at the same time I don't know the scale of it.
The scale is big. Even at my last IT job, pretty much every domestic IT group except IT Security was reviewed against outsourcers. The competition is tough when they're paying U.S. workers $40-50/hour (gross pay plus benefits) but they have to pay only $35/hour to our "cosourcing partners". >8) Unfortunately for us, the (our) effort to clean up their messes* came out of a different budget, so senior management (the same folks who obviously understand getting what you pay for, based on the Audis and Lexi in the parking ramp) remained largely clueless and just saw dollar signs.

The trouble for the Trumpistas, though, is that most of the job loss he rails against isn't ever coming back to the U.S., for lots of reasons which are OT here. I will just note that when I left The Day Job, TIINC were examining if it paid to move development to China or Vietnam because they thought Indian developers were getting too expensive and the Chinese and Vietnamese worked for so much less money. Returning the work to U.S. employees never made the short list.


He mentions he wishes he could change careers but is too old, I ask sincerely "what is too old?" because I wonder, I wonder what the job market thinks.
One reason I left The Day Job rather than lateral into another part of IT was that, at a high enough level, you become a specialist (which I was) and no one wants to pay a specialist's salary for entry-level or journeyperson work. I could not move to, say, database analyst without pretty much starting over again. Well, maybe I could have but I would have said goodbye to any compensation increase probably for the rest of my career.

Now, transition out of IT; that’s more do-able but still leaves the 50-60-year old worker battling the assumptions that (s)he no longer has the stamina to handle long work weeks or really flexible schedules or that (s)he knows how to associate with or influence Millennials. It's kind of the same brush that tarred younger working women because the assumption was they all wanted to work until they married and could leave work to have babies. It's not true for all and the notion really needed to be challenged. I am not hopeful, though it did work for young working women pretty well after 30-40 years of spotlighting the behavior.


* To be completely fair about it, some of the mess came with what we handed our partners. Garbage in, garbage out, as the old computer saying goes. If we could not spec a project properly or hold the line on endless feature requests, that was our failure. What we got back from our partners was not of the highest quality, but our frequent inability to at least define what the monster looked like cost us, too.

[Rachel]

Ap, there are so many people in your situation. Somehow this country has gotten into a terrible situation. People who are willing to work and smart should not have to struggle like this to get jobs. I've been thinking that if I retire or get canned this year and and I run into financial difficulties, one of my "fallbacks" is to apply to a retailer with a good track record for treating employees well. There are a few out there. Maybe that could work for you if your current contract runs out. Just a thought. You sound like a super smart resourceful person, you deserve better than this. Sending you good vibes.

[Teacher Terry]

Just saw on another forum that Texas and Florida are adding jobs at record pace. Having to move for work is not fun and of course some people can’t move.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Ap, there are so many people in your situation. Somehow this country has gotten into a terrible situation. People who are willing to work and smart should not have to struggle like this to get jobs. I've been thinking that if I retire or get canned this year and and I run into financial difficulties, one of my "fallbacks" is to apply to a retailer with a good track record for treating employees well. There are a few out there. Maybe that could work for you if your current contract runs out. Just a thought. You sound like a super smart resourceful person, you deserve better than this. Sending you good vibes.

Thanks.

Yea I've even thought I should work retail weekends or something now so I had that experience. But really I'd have to think long and hard, as there's a limit to how much I really should over-schedule myself, but desperate fear drives such thoughts.

But ETA: contract work goes okay. Bf probably did Not get the contract position HE interviewed for I mentioned earlier in this thread (like I said he has a full time job now though - bad in many ways though). I tried very hard to be supportive of him there as he wanted to get that contract position, I did try despite myself, but I failed to be so fully, as all I could think was: good heavens we're both going to be unemployed at the same time when contracts run out! Also he said he was thinking of taking the contract work because he thought it would advance his career. I inwardly screamed, because I think I got into this morass switching full time jobs initially trying to make decisions that I thought would advance my career and well clearly it didn't work out, mostly due to bad luck of getting a bully, but ALSO I now think it's very hard (impossible perhaps) to predict the job market that way and what job really will advance a career or not.

If we both were unemployed and unable to find work I could see me living with my elderly mom in her falling apart shack really as plan Z. But that's not for now anyway. :)

[SteveinMN]

all I could think was: good heavens we're both going to be unemployed at the same time when contracts run out! Also he said he was thinking of taking the contract work because he thought it would advance his career. I inwardly screamed, because I think I got into this morass switching full time jobs initially trying to make decisions that I thought would advance my career and well clearly it didn't work out, mostly due to bad luck of getting a bully, but ALSO I now think it's very hard (impossible perhaps) to predict the job market that way and what job really will advance a career or not.
I did contract work for several years in my career. It was a different job market back then (outsourcing was relatively rare, etc.). In contract work, you're very aware of when the contract ends and you're keeping your eyes open for the next job; it's shifting sand all the time until it happens. There were two times when I got to the end of a contract without another job. Once I got a new contract (at a different company) the very last day I finished my existing contract. Another time I was "on the bench" for about a month. It worked out; my wife and I knew this could happen so we socked away a little of my income for the dry spells (that might be another difference from contracting today).

While many of the skills I learned were transferable and I got lots of great experience, the different jobs rarely fit together in a way one would call "advancing a career". 's okay; my career was a series of improbably lateral and upward leaps. Perhaps if I had my eyes on a corner office somewhere I would have considered it deficient. But I enjoyed getting to know some companies from the inside out (some enough to know I never wanted to work there "permanently") and met some great people along the way (some of them still friends). Contract work is in many ways a different animal than being a full-time employee. But it has some pluses if you're of the mind to pursue it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I did contract work for several years in my career. It was a different job market back then (outsourcing was relatively rare, etc.).

I remember it, it was even a world in which people worked for themselves sometimes (in software etc.). You really don't see that very much now (in that industry, sure in entirely different things you do).

They also don't do long term contracts now as the government highly discouraged them and that I learned from my present employer (the government thought they were a way to avoid hiring full time employees - of course they were). So contracts seldom go over a year now and don't tend to be extended, once in a while you see a rare 2 year contract or something.


In contract work, you're very aware of when the contract ends and you're keeping your eyes open for the next job; it's shifting sand all the time until it happens.

I'm honestly not sure how that works, especially with a contract that doesn't last long to begin with. And they aren't always entirely sure of how long a contract will even last. No paid time off, so how to interview? Take unpaid time? Ok sure but you can't miss your ACTUAL job ALL THE TIME even if it is contract, to interview right and left and yes it looks even worse given you don't even have vacation or sick time (well very little sick time anyway). But that problem exists in a full time job if seeking a new one? To a degree. But you can take your time and space it out (depending on how desperate you are to get out) - there may not be some rush - must get a new job now! Also if you work somewhere that has paid time off and people are allowed to use it, it doesn't look bad to take it.


It worked out; my wife and I knew this could happen so we socked away a little of my income for the dry spells (that might be another difference from contracting today).

I will but being realistic, you can't sock away vast amounts of savings working a few months. If my life consists of working a few months a year from now on, I am in trouble :~)


Contract work is in many ways a different animal than being a full-time employee. But it has some pluses if you're of the mind to pursue it.

It has some pluses, if I didn't feel so economically vulnerable, it would be highly appealing just for variety. But I come to it out of long term unemployment, and I don't see any reason that can't happen again, and it leaves me scared.

As for advancement:
1) old old rules: stay with a company for life - get the gold watch and the pension
2) newer but now also maybe obsolete rules (what my generation was told) - companies have no loyalty to you, have no loyalty to them, just think about improving yourself as a product, jump companies to advance yourself etc.
3) new rules: if you can actually manage to get a decent paying full time job, thank your lucky stars and hold on to it for dear life. companies still have no loyalty to you, and some day a pink slip or even training your replacement, but everything else is gigs and low paid work as far as the eye can see, ride the gravy train as far as it goes.

[SteveinMN]

In contract work, you're very aware of when the contract ends and you're keeping your eyes open for the next job; it's shifting sand all the time until it happens.
I'm honestly not sure how that works, especially with a contract that doesn't last long to begin with. And they aren't always entirely sure of how long a contract will even last. No paid time off, so how to interview?
The organization offering the contract has to know when you'll no longer be there (more so if you're one of a team). Payroll and Security certainly want a defined end date. Most contracts can handle a somewhat-negotiable start date (just as "permanent" job start dates are negotiable).

Besides, you're not taking time to interview willy-nilly. You (most likely) are represented by a company that's handling stuff for you like Social Security deductions and the like. If they want to continue making money off you as a contractor it is in their best interests to find another position for you by the time this contract ends (or they'll know it has a pretty good chance of continuing). So they'll shop you around. They'll be talking to their customers trying to get an idea of what's coming down the pike; they'll be looking for new openings at other companies for which your skills can fill the bill.

As for the interviews themselves, you get some time off for lunch, yes? Or you could meet after hours. Or before. Your long commute makes that problematic. But phones and teleconferencing (Skype, FaceTime) can work (did for me). I'm saying there are ways of interviewing with a hiring manager that don't involve taking tons of time off work (paid or unpaid). n.b., my contracts were set so that if I did not work I did not get paid. Sick time, vacation, leave early for a doctor's appointment or an interview, etc.: sorry, the paycheck's a little short this time. It's part of contract work and something you, as the contractor, need to negotiate into your rate.



It worked out; my wife and I knew this could happen so we socked away a little of my income for the dry spells (that might be another difference from contracting today).
I will but being realistic, you can't sock away vast amounts of savings working a few months. If my life consists of working a few months a year from now on, I am in trouble :~)
Well, yeah. This is, however, another area where the company representing you can help. For what jobs are they seeing high demand? What skills do their better-paid contractors bring to the organizations that bring them on? Is there a way you can fill a niche? If there is demand but very few people who can do what you do, it's payday. If not, it's time to consider additional skills. At least, as a contractor, overtime is rare (since you have to be paid for it).


As for advancement:
1) old old rules: stay with a company for life - get the gold watch and the pension
2) newer but now also maybe obsolete rules (what my generation was told) - companies have no loyalty to you, have no loyalty to them, just think about improving yourself as a product, jump companies to advance yourself etc.
3) new rules: if you can actually manage to get a decent paying full time job, thank your lucky stars and hold on to it for dear life. companies still have no loyalty to you, and some day a pink slip or even training your replacement, but everything else is gigs and low paid work as far as the eye can see, ride the gravy train as far as it goes.
Trying not to get all Tony Robbins and Millennial-mushy on you :~) , at least some of that is a matter of choice. Many years ago I read a book about careers that used a housepainter as an illustration, the point being that the painter would never be able to tell you exactly whose house (s)he would be painting 2-3 years from now but that it was extremely likely (s)he'd still be painting houses. That does not preclude learning new painting techniques or how to work with new materials or learning more about current styles to suggest to customers but that (s)he would continue to gain experience and favorable word-of-mouth (on-line ratings, nowadays) and would continue to build up his/her network.

It's not that different now. Organizations still rely on word-of-mouth and visible reputation when identifying candidates for new work. The people you work with (contractors and not) enlarge your network and can become a source of introductions or recommendations -- or even other contracting companies if yours isn't coming through for you. I can't tell you the number of opportunities I've had that resulted in interviews and hiring based on people I worked with some time ago who remembered the quality of what I did and how I managed myself in the workplace. Keep up your network -- it's one of the things you have to sell to others.

And you can use that network to start moving up if you want. If you're looking for a gig at a particular company or line of business or programming language/database/work environment, ply your contacts (and offer to do the same for them). Join a Special Interest Group (SIG) either IRL or on-line. It's a foot in the door or a leg up to the next level -- if you want it to be.

I know the world is different than it was back then, but I know many people in their 20s and 30s who are using this method (as I did) to build careers that go beyond on-line classifieds and what contracting companies can throw them. That, too, for better or worse, is part of the "your own brand" thing and selling yourself. You're right, the old rules are dead dead dead. But you can learn new ones, right?

[ApatheticNoMore]

The organization offering the contract has to know when you'll no longer be there (more so if you're one of a team). Payroll and Security certainly want a defined end date. Most contracts can handle a somewhat-negotiable start date (just as "permanent" job start dates are negotiable).

yea probably someone. The contracting agency presented it as a 4 month contract, my boss on a phone screen said "this contract is not the length it is saying in the ads contracting agencies are sending". Me: "what length is it for?" Boss: "around 6 months, the ads are saying it's for a year". Me to contracting agency later: "how long is this for?" contracting agency: "Through Jan-Feb, how long did the boss say it was for?" Me: "6 months" Them: "then that is probably right, they would know best".

I was hired to work on specific projects but I haven't even started those yet as they are behind schedule. I am doing smaller tasks.


Besides, you're not taking time to interview willy-nilly. You (most likely) are represented by a company that's handling stuff for you like Social Security deductions and the like. If they want to continue making money off you as a contractor it is in their best interests to find another position for you by the time this contract ends (or they'll know it has a pretty good chance of continuing). So they'll shop you around. They'll be talking to their customers trying to get an idea of what's coming down the pike; they'll be looking for new openings at other companies for which your skills can fill the bill.

How do I get them to shop me around? Just contact them and say "hi, remember me, keep a lookout for a job for me when this one is over ...". I was tag team recruited by a bunch of people at that staffing agency for this position. As a job hunter I got tons and tons of recruiters mostly very dubious (not outright fake jobs or anything but just very incompetent recruiters) and some legit (I even pursued many of the dubious one's as far as it went which was nowhere just because I had nothing better to do), but this was a legit staffing agency at least, so I took them more seriously when contacted for this.

[Yppej]

The agency is your employer and depending on state law you might be able to say something along the lines of, "When this assignment ends do you have another one for me or should I file for unemployment compensation?"

A variation of that worked for me. I was doing temp work and sent the agency a letter that I was taking FMLA leave to have a baby. When I was ready to return to work they weren't coming up with anything until I mentioned filing for UI. Then they found something real quick.

[SteveinMN]

How do I get them to shop me around? Just contact them and say "hi, remember me, keep a lookout for a job for me when this one is over ...". I was tag team recruited by a bunch of people at that staffing agency for this position.
When I was contracting, the company that hired my contracting firm had one (sales) rep who essentially was my contact for whatever. She brought our paychecks weekly and touched base with us -- how things were going, if we had heard about future expansions or additional job openings, if we were taking significant time off any time soon, etc.

You may not have someone coming to your workplace on a regular basis but I'd bet money that the company at which you're working is not dealing with the "tag team" -- they're working with one primary person. You should find that person and just touch base with them every now and then. Email or text is fine. Chat about what you're working on at the moment or how work is going, ask what they're hearing about an actual end date, ask what they're looking at for your next contract (or maybe, since you're new to contracting, what you might be doing "on the bench" if they don't have another placement when this one ends).

And (I don't think I have to say this but I will) don't take your own foot off the employment-search pedal. It is in your contracting firm's best interest to place you again (and again) and keep making money off you. But if it doesn't look like they will come through with something worthwhile (or if having a wedge of going elsewhere might help you land a better placement or a better rate), then looking outside is worth the effort.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I wondered if I was just uniquely confused about length of the contract etc.. Even though I was told 6 months in the interview but promised nothing of course.

I am not part of a team per se but there is another contractor there in our group who started about when I did (but is with a different contracting firm), I asked him the length of his contract, he didn't know exactly either, several months is all he knew.

Then in a meeting I found out, although I had heard bits of it before, they are still pushing for funding to keep us on for 2019, this seems decently likely to happen, and the boss most definitely wants it to (but the ultimate say is at a higher level), so yea no wonder stuff is so indeterminate!!! I can try to find out assuming they got the 2019 funding, how long they plan to keep me on in 2019.

[SteveinMN]

they are still pushing for funding to keep us on for 2019, this seems decently likely to happen, and the boss most definitely wants it to (but the ultimate say is at a higher level), so yea no wonder stuff is so indeterminate!!!
I know the commute to this job is heinous but, for your sake, I hope they can keep the contract going.

[Miss Cellaneous]

I wondered if I was just uniquely confused about length of the contract etc.. Even though I was told 6 months in the interview but promised nothing of course.

I am not part of a team per se but there is another contractor there in our group who started about when I did (but is with a different contracting firm), I asked him the length of his contract, he didn't know exactly either, several months is all he knew.

Then in a meeting I found out, although I had heard bits of it before, they are still pushing for funding to keep us on for 2019, this seems decently likely to happen, and the boss most definitely wants it to (but the ultimate say is at a higher level), so yea no wonder stuff is so indeterminate!!! I can try to find out assuming they got the 2019 funding, how long they plan to keep me on in 2019.

Your agency can also help in these situations. As Steve has said, you can contact them near the end of your assignment. If you don't know what that is supposed to be, someone at the agency probably does. I would contact my rep at the temp agency and ask them to start looking for a new job for me. The rep would contact HR at the company I was working at, HR would contact my supervisor, and the rep would learn if they wanted to extend my position or end it.

I found that frequently direct supervisors did not want to tell people they were being let go (it's not the easiest conversation to have, even with a temp), but had no problem telling HR the truth. It's a round-about way of getting the info, but it is info that you really need in order to plan your life.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't know why there is any expectation these contracting agencies "look for a job for you". I don't think that's how it works. Never hurts to try, sure that's always true, but that is different than thinking they look for jobs for anyone. Now is it possible they could place you in another job? Sure it's *possible*. And since you at least got in somewhere might there be more willingness perhaps than with a total stranger? Sure. But frankly there was willingness with total strangers too, with them there seemed to be willingness to spam anyone whose resumes they had for jobs (I am decently suited for this, so perhaps it was just luck or perhaps they did a little more diligence than some do who throw everything but the kitchen sink at you).

But I can't even imagine them "looking for a job for me". I've never actually met whoever works at the contracting agency (just the tag team I talked to over the phone), they don't keep in touch with me, I doubt they are local, I sometimes doubt they are even in the country, but maybe that shouldn't matter and there's actually no way to know anyway. I can push them to look for me as part of being more aggressive in pushing stuff to happen, but it doesn't mean I have any real influence there, it is kinda just saying "remember me, keep an eye out for me, thanks". Now I understand looking for a job for myself of course, I did that for 10+ months already.

[SteveinMN]

I don't know why there is any expectation these contracting agencies "look for a job for you". I don't think that's how it works.
It's pretty simple: They get paid when you work. They do not get paid when you don't.

I contracted for ten years at four different companies and worked with all kinds of contractors from other companies and this is all I saw.

As I wrote earlier, it is in your contract company's best interest to find you another placement when this one is finished. The contracting company has spent money to hire you, do background checks or Mantoux tests (or whatever may have been necessary or maybe none of them were necessary), get you paid, send the right forms to the gubmint and the company at which you work, etc. They will stand paying you for "bench time", if your contract is set up for that and you do not have another assignment at the end of this one. If they don't find another assignment for you, they'll likely have to advertise for someone else who will need the testing and payroll setup and all; at least you are now a known quantity for whom they can vouch (at least a little).

To get paid back for these expenses and to make a profit, they are taking a cut of the rate they charge your hiring manager for you. Or (much less likely) they charged a finder's fee to that company. This is how they make their money. If they want to keep the gravy train running, they'll help you find another assignment. n.b., they're making an introduction and stating your (hopefully positive) history with them; you still have to convince the hiring manager that you can do the job. But that's no different than any other interview.

Think of it like working with a real estate agent to buy a house: the agent incurs expenses while you look but does not get paid back for any of them until you close the sale on the house you bought. House doesn't close? They don't get paid. It is in their interest to find a house you like enough to buy.

Certainly there are edge cases around this: the company at which you are placed may be ending its association with the contracting company (for various reasons; at my last "permanent" job they streamlined dozens of contracting companies down to the half-dozen they used most); the contracting company may be getting out of that line of business (though it's still worth it to them to get you hired on elsewhere); etc. But your contracting company is invisible only if you let them be. They are making money from your labor. It is not unreasonable to push them to represent you so they can make even more.

[Miss Cellaneous]

Have to agree with Steve. Once you have proven yourself with an agency, they do tend to at least try to find you more work. Some of that depends on how well the company you work for likes your work. Sometimes it even depends on little things like showing up on time every day, getting along well with others, etc.

My agency placed me mostly in jobs that matched my skill set, but if there were no other jobs, they'd offer me "make-work" jobs to fill in the gaps. I think I did a two week stint as a receptionist once, because I needed the money. Then a better job opened up for me and the agency switched me to that. I didn't have to take the receptionist job; I chose to because I didn't want the hassle of filing for unemployment. Once I talked the agency into letting me work on a project they thought I wouldn't like--that project ended up keeping me working for several months and I was tasked with training new hires on the project and got a raise for doing so!

The more money you earn for the agency, the more likely they are to try and keep you employed.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I will pursue stuff with the contracting agency further (that is placing me in another gig when this one ends). I will look for full time work but barely have the space to breath to do that (but hey would if unemployed hmpf ugh!). It's not like I never interviewed for any, it just didn't happen.

On moving across the country for work. My contractor coworker was thinking of going to northern CA not even for a job, for a job well not everyone can or wants to move but, but for a contract I believe, another short term gig. I think this is happening now to a degree, people up and moving all over the place chasing short term gigs, one after another, and I suspect some people have even more desperate reasons for wanting to like fear of losing their stay in this country if they can't work (but I'm not an expert on how that all works). Oh well I may not be believed, but I'm just trying to say what seems to be going on here to a degree.

How to survive? I'm not sure.

[Tybee]

I will pursue stuff with the contracting agency further (that is placing me in another gig when this one ends). I will look for full time work but barely have the space to breath to do that (but hey would if unemployed hmpf ugh!). It's not like I never interviewed for any, it just didn't happen.

On moving across the country for work. My contractor coworker was thinking of going to northern CA not even for a job, for a job well not everyone can or wants to move but, but for a contract I believe, another short term gig. I think this is happening now to a degree, people up and moving all over the place chasing short term gigs, one after another, and I suspect some people have even more desperate reasons for wanting to like fear of losing their stay in this country if they can't work (but I'm not an expert on how that all works). Oh well I may not be believed, but I'm just trying to say what seems to be going on here to a degree.

How to survive? I'm not sure.

I don't know if this is economically feasible with these jobs, but could you go up there and rent a place, like traveling nurses do, or just a room for the duration?

[SteveinMN]

could you go up there and rent a place, like traveling nurses do
The "traveling nurse" model was the one that came to my mind, too. I know of a couple and they are around the country for anywhere between six weeks and several months. It suits them. It's not for everyone.

[sweetana3]

I met a couple of nurses who had a great place to live in NC. They commuted to Atlanta and worked weekends only for a very nice chunk of money. They stayed in Atlanta and even might have slept at the hospital during the weekend.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I guess I'll be unemployed soon, but hard to get any real answer, I met someone from the contracting agency for the first time today, they were in a hurry but they had no idea of the job duration and thought it was for a year (uh no almost certainly not, but that was the bad data they had I guess). They'll talk to my boss and let me know.

My coworker is looking for gigs all over the state etc., can be as little as one month gigs and he'll take it for money now (no this doesn't actually *work* as a long term plan, I'm pretty sure), as he believes it will only last through December but doesn't know either (he is with a different contracting agency). I asked if he would rent something but he says no, maybe air bnb but it has to be no more than $50 a day, hmph, uh good luck with that (as in not likely to happen to get a place by the night for that little).

[Yppej]

Unfortunately we may be at peak employment now and heading downwards as Trump's trade war tweets catch up with him.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Unfortunately we may be at peak employment now and heading downwards as Trump's trade war tweets catch up with him.

Peak employment and still no jobs to be had except a little gig work, or fast food maybe. Although it's not good news, we are over due for a recession anyway so I think whatever happens will happen regardless of Trump since it's just about the timing (he could make it worse I guess). It would be like being surprised an earthquake hit the west coast - a matter of when not if.

[Teacher Terry]

ANM, are you close to retirement? If not you might have to move where there are jobs or retrain. Too constantly be out of work is really stressful. I know you don’t want to do either of these suggestions.

[ApatheticNoMore]

2 decades-ish to retirement, so not really close. I don't know what retraining makes sense. I applied to college but around here you have to apply to public college OVER a year ahead of time to get in (i tried before, turns out they only accept applications in the fall and then only for the following fall) with turning away qualified students sometimes anyway because of overcrowding, so I applied and there's really nothing to do there at this point but twiddle my thumbs, go broke (in reality look for work), and see where that application or my job search goes.

Community college is easy to get admitted to without a wait (perhaps not to get classes - they might be hard to get), out of state (online) or non-public college might be easier to get in to (and likely costlier - I am very mindful about the cost). I'm not sure real formal schooling like that really makes sense, since I'm beyond capable but really too old to be given a chance in a new field I fear, but I don't know what does make any sense. They say there are lots of jobs that don't require degrees but darned if I know what they are. Yes there are jobs you don't earn enough to live off of (and my standards for living aren't even high), then they say people should do something like welding but they have no idea how spectacularly bad I'd be at that, and I'm actually good at working in an office etc.. I'm not sure we're actually all cut out for blue collar work (not that that is wide open either, only some parts of it are, other parts are largely immigrant).

Moving might help, hard to know unless I looked for jobs elsewhere, yea I don't want to move.

[JaneV2.0]

2 decades-ish to retirement, so not really close. I don't know what retraining makes sense. I applied to college but around here you have to apply to public college OVER a year ahead of time to get in (i tried before, turns out they only accept applications in the fall and then only for the following fall) with turning away qualified students sometimes anyway because of overcrowding, so I applied and there's really nothing to do there at this point but twiddle my thumbs, go broke (in reality look for work), and see where that application or my job search goes.

Community college is easy to get admitted to without a wait (perhaps not to get classes - they might be hard to get), out of state (online) or non-public college might be easier to get in to (and likely costlier - I am very mindful about the cost). I'm not sure real formal schooling like that really makes sense, since I'm beyond capable but really too old to be given a chance in a new field I fear, but I don't know what does make any sense. They say there are lots of jobs that don't require degrees but darned if I know what they are. Yes there are jobs you don't earn enough to live off of (and my standards for living aren't even high), then they say people should do something like welding but they have no idea how spectacularly bad I'd be at that, and I'm actually good at working in an office etc.. I'm not sure we're actually all cut out for blue collar work (not that that is wide open either, only some parts of it are, other parts are largely immigrant).

Moving might help, hard to know unless I looked for jobs elsewhere, yea I don't want to move.

I changed fields at fifty-one--from technical work to technical writing/editing. Got certified in both, got an internship, was getting nibbles and phone interviews (Microsoft!), and then the tech recession hit. I believe with a little luck and some perseverance, I would have prevailed. I had a co-worker who was hired (with extensive experience) at 65. And this, for the moment, is a better employment climate. I know it can be done.

ETA: I'd hire a job counselor, if that's possible. I didn't find the state employment office helpful at all, though they used to be. Now they just show videos and tell you to spam your CV to everyone with a computer. Look into medical jobs--one that interested me was medical equipment repair--or jobs in criminal justice. Those two fields aren't going anywhere.

[Teacher Terry]

I went back to graduate school at 39 and changed careers. Once I graduated I job hunted nationwide even though I didn’t want to move I knew I had to be open to it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

why bother wasting money and time to go back to school then, might as well just move to a town of a few thousand people or a few more and look for a minimum wage job, you could maybe support yourself on it in such a place because costs would be low enough. School would be a bid to stay here. Because I actually don't care what I do for money all that much, work is work, I just don't want to do things I would be really bad at, so that sets some limits.

[SteveinMN]

work is work, I just don't want to do things I would be really bad at, so that sets some limits.
How do you know what you would be really bad at doing?

[Teacher Terry]

Because I then obtained work in a professional position with great benefits. That’s what made the move worth it.

[mschrisgo2]

May not be of interest to very many here, but food for thought anyway. California is really hurting for trainable people for the building trades. We have had a housing shortage, and now with all of the fires and floods destroying so many homes, housing really has reached a crisis point.

My 19 yr old grandson went to work as a carpenter apprentice 4 months ago. His starting wage was $31.53/hr, and he got a raise after 90 days. He is doing finish carpentry work, so he works inside all day.

Similarly, the modular home building industry is looking for hundreds of workers, and all those people work inside climate controlled buildings all year. Central Oregon has several factories, as does California. All of those pay very very well. And they are located in the less populated areas, where one can reasonably run a huge home factory. Also, the cost of living is lower for their workers. I'm sure they also employ many people in their offices, as well as on the production lines.


Edited to add: In 'n Out Burgers pays $15/hr starting wage in California.
I know it is relatively expensive to live here, but there are lots of opportunities.

[JaneV2.0]

Excellent advice about trades--a laid-off co-worker of mine enrolled in carpentry school to learn to do finish work on boats. Last I heard, she was doing well. I would have thought that was too niche-y, but apparently not around here. Another example of thing outside the cube farm.

[ApatheticNoMore]

looks like I may be there awhile. Good because I found this "good job market" to actually be insane, looking for work as a database developer or anything else I'd done prior to that (application support, business analysis, something has to have some use to someone ... yea done more than one thing in my job life, probably not a great idea).

And I haven't been able to save much working yet. I guess how hard missing a days pay for xmas and new years, if you have to take time to go to the dentist, etc. would hit I didn't realize until I became contract (and I did not set my rate any higher than I would for a full time job - I was desperate period). After being unemployed for so long not able to save but bills get paid is hey BILLS GET PAID!!! And there was ahem pent up demand. I mean I didn't buy anything for a year so did some stocking up :~). So maybe I'll be able to save something eventually.

What saving I have done is mostly throwing about $600 so far in a Roth IRA, and feeling pretty foolish thinking: a lot of good that will do you when unemployed! Yea well it was symbolic, about keeping hope of being middle class again ... someday .... I think much about being middle class is foolishness, I am so done with most of it, the parts I ever even cared about. But the basics aren't = some minor degree of job security (more than contract work), healthcare, paid time off, not stressing about every penny (it's too hard to live that way), ability to make the rent. Ha.

About construction, my boyfriend works in construction, but is not a blue collar man, does administrative stuff, for which demand is not so great, so maybe he'd know some ins and outs of it. Some construction is all immigrant, but I don't know about all (some of it is government and unionized also, and that's not).