View Full Version : Grieving for our Country
HappyHiker
12-21-18, 3:47pm
A confession:
I've had a hard time, in the last several years, to retain my usual optimism. It seems everything I believe in vis a vis, our nation, such as environmental protection, world affairs, safety nets and care for our not-wealthy in healthcare, education, housing and so on and so on, ad nauseum, is being enviserated.
Anyone else experiencing this blue feeling of a downward spiral? How do you deal with it? I'm trying to act locally and caring globally, but it seems a daunting task these days.
Are we witnessing the End of Western Civilization? Will it end with a whimper?
Or a bang?
Am I being overly-concerned? How about you?
I am a new grandma and it really makes me think about their future so yes, I am a bit blue about things as they are now. I remain hopeful that perhaps some new leaders/voices will come out of the dark and turn things around.
iris lilies
12-21-18, 4:30pm
Do you all have young adults in your life? It’s their world and while they have lots of concerns and worries about it, I think you’ll find that they have more optimism then we oldsters do.
That is true. DD and her little family are full of joy over their life as new parents and good fortune otherwise. Well-paid interesting jobs, good health, home ownership etc.
In 1940, ten years into the depression, I doubt there was much optimism. After Pearl Harbor I imagine there was even less. And after the end of WWII people expected a return of the depression. Instead our country entered a long period of widespread prosperity, growth and relative peace. Just five years earlier I seriously doubt anyone would have predicted it.
I'm very optimistic for the future. Sure, we have to get through the.current super nova end of 40+ years of growing conservative power but now that Trump has laid bare the fact that conservatism is no longer about any of its principles and is just about naked power grabs and grifting it's days are numbered. The dems ran some great candidates at all levels last month. If they can keep up the enthusiasm and remain focused on crafting policies and ideas that actually will benefit regular people instead of focusing on being angry the future will work out fine.
.
Teacher Terry
12-21-18, 5:31pm
Yes my kids are more optimistic than me at this point. I sure hope things turn around in 2 years.
The economy is cyclical and when it goes down, which is already starting to happen, Trump and his cronies will be out.
Williamsmith
12-21-18, 8:32pm
Trump is withdrawing all troops from Syria. He plans to end the 17 year old war in Afghanistan. The military industrial complex is having a hissy fit. We are considering peace talks with the Taliban. We are no longer claiming to spread democracy by dropping bombs. This is what people expected Obama to do but he turned out to be as much of a warmonger as Hillary. You should be grieving for Democrats.....
The military industrial complex is alive, well, and selling weapons to thugs in Saudi Arabia because Trump can't say no to them.
Trump is withdrawing all troops from Syria. He plans to end the 17 year old war in Afghanistan. The military industrial complex is having a hissy fit. We are considering peace talks with the Taliban. We are no longer claiming to spread democracy by dropping bombs. This is what people expected Obama to do but he turned out to be as much of a warmonger as Hillary. You should be grieving for Democrats.....
I'm sorry. What war began with Obama? I recall him carrying out the decisions of the Bush war. Please do inform..........
jp1 is right. This isn’t our worst era. It doesn’t even make the top ten.
iris lilies
12-21-18, 9:22pm
Trump is withdrawing all troops from Syria. He plans to end the 17 year old war in Afghanistan. The military industrial complex is having a hissy fit. We are considering peace talks with the Taliban. We are no longer claiming to spread democracy by dropping bombs. This is what people expected Obama to do but he turned out to be as much of a warmonger as Hillary. You should be grieving for Democrats.....
You forgot to mention who met with the little man from North Korea. That was huge, or rather should I say —yuuge!
It was not the man who won the Nobel prize for peace before he had done one damn thing that met with North Korea.
Williamsmith
12-21-18, 9:27pm
I'm sorry. What war began with Obama? I recall him carrying out the decisions of the Bush war. Please do inform..........
Obama received the Pentagons Dinstinguished Public Service Award, was conducting a war every single day of his eight years in office, dropped bombs on seven different countries and dropped 24,287 bombs on Syria and Iraq alone.
iris lilies
12-21-18, 9:29pm
Obama received the Pentagons Dinstinguished Public Service Award, was conducting a war every single day of his eight years in office, dropped bombs on seven different countries and dropped 24,287 bombs on Syria and Iraq alone.
He so earned his Nobel peace prize.
Obama received the Pentagons Dinstinguished Public Service Award, was conducting a war every single day of his eight years in office, dropped bombs on seven different countries and dropped 24,287 bombs on Syria and Iraq alone.
"Countries bombed: Obama 7, Bush 4."
That’s True (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/25/ryan-lizza/lizza-says-obama-has-bombed-more-nations-bush/).
We asked Lizza for his list and he sent us this:
Bush: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan and Somalia.
Obama: Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Libya and Syria.
As we fact-checked Lizza’s statement, we found little reason to challenge the nations he named. If anything, he shortchanged both presidents.
There is no dispute whatsoever about airstrikes in Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan. Bush launched wars in the first two countries and drone strikes in Pakistan have been in the news for a long time, with or without official acknowledgment. Airstrikes in those places continued under Obama.
Somalia falls largely in the same category as Pakistan. The New York Times, BBC News and other news organizations reported airstrikes as early as 2007 against people linked to the al-Qaida network.
The Bureau of Investigative Journalism, a nonprofit news service based at City University London, maintains a running list of U.S. military actions in a number of countries, including Somalia and Yemen. The bureau annotates each incident with links to press reports. By its tally, American drone strikes against suspected terrorists in Somalia occurred under both Bush and Obama.
The same pattern holds in Yemen. BBC News and Timemagazine reported a CIA-directed drone attack in Yemen in 2002. This would increase Bush’s total to five countries, rather than the four Lizza cited. Lizza said he left Yemen off of Bush’s list because it was a "one-off strike, rather than a more sustained bombing campaign. Probably deserves an asterisk."
The air attacks on Libya that helped topple Moammar Gadhafi in 2011 under Obama are well documented. In March 2011, the United States and British warships fired over 100 cruise missiles to destroy Libyan air defenses. And, of course, there’s now Syria.
Lizza said that Obama has bombed seven countries to Bush’s four. Depending on your view of Bush’s reported drone strike into Yemen, he may have slightly undercounted Bush’s tally.
catherine
12-21-18, 11:09pm
Just read this in a book about Chris Hedges which speaks to the need to have faith, act according to your values, and then detach yourself from the results
And as Father Berrigan says, we’re called to do the good, or at least the good insofar as we can determine it, and then we have to let it go, that the Buddhists call it karma, that for us it’s the belief that the good draws to it the good, that rebellion and resistance itself is a moral imperative. And even though empirically everything around us may appear to deteriorate, it doesn’t invalidate that act of resistance.
Williamsmith
12-22-18, 7:41am
As long as you are committed to thinking for yourself rather than following charismatic figureheads or dogmas, there’s the ability to auto correct against going off in the wrong direction. Our information sources are infected with propaganda. This results in some alien alliances like that of the current progressives and neoconservatives who would seem to have different convictions regarding our military involvement worldwide but join forces to attack politicians they hate even when they make policy decisions that they agree with.
There is nothing you can believe in or no one you can trust....so a feeling of despair develops. That’s very conducive to controlling people. What Catherine is eluding to perhaps....is believe in yourself and the rest will follow. I believe in humanity. I believe that God is uniquely present in all humans. Some put this to work to do good. Otherwise chaos and evil would be the norm and good would be the subject of the evening news.
As long as you are committed to thinking for yourself rather than following charismatic figureheads or dogmas, there’s the ability to auto correct against going off in the wrong direction. Our information sources are infected with propaganda. This results in some alien alliances like that of the current progressives and neoconservatives who would seem to have different convictions regarding our military involvement worldwide but join forces to attack politicians they hate even when they make policy decisions that they agree with.
There is nothing you can believe in or no one you can trust....so a feeling of despair develops. That’s very conducive to controlling people. What Catherine is eluding to perhaps....is believe in yourself and the rest will follow. I believe in humanity. I believe that God is uniquely present in all humans. Some put this to work to do good. Otherwise chaos and evil would be the norm and good would be the subject of the evening news.
If only those with the will to do good would run for office. I sometimes feel those who would do so well won't run because our system is broken?
This isn’t our worst era. It doesn’t even make the top ten.
Just out of curiosity, which ten eras would you rank as worse?
Worst eras - not in any order:
Great Depression
World War II
Civil War era
Financial crash of early 1890s, I believe
I guess it depends how you define an era, but the worst times in our nation have to include genocidal wars against Native Americans, slavery, the collapse of Reconstruction into Jim Crow with numerous lynchings, the imprisonment and harassment of women seeking suffrage, and police raids of gay bars and violence against their patrons.
catherine
12-22-18, 11:11am
I guess it depends how you define an era, but the worst times in our nation have to include genocidal wars against Native Americans, slavery, the collapse of Reconstruction into Jim Crow with numerous lynchings, the imprisonment and harassment of women seeking suffrage, and police raids of gay bars and violence against their patrons.
+1
There it is. Well said.
jp1 is right. This isn’t our worst era. It doesn’t even make the top ten.
I wholeheartedly agree. It is however the current reality and impacting today's US residents on a horrific personal scale with each devastating event and decision with some being large-scale impact.
JaneV2.0
12-22-18, 11:24am
When Trump was elected, I despaired. But his cruelty, ineptitude, hubris, and greed have awakened a large number of Americans to the fact that he's a symbol of what is wrong with this country, and that it's time to mobilize for change. And if a large enough majority can overcome attempts to gerrymander and otherwise thwart voters, we stand a good chance of prevailing. The midterms, with their new, young legislators gave me reason to believe there's a bright light at the end of this dark tunnel.
I think the one thing that is huge and depressing right now (that may not have been in other eras) is widespread environmental degradation. All of our endeavors positive and negative mean nothing if we don't have an earth to live on.
Ocasio-Cortez and other progressives are touting a Green New Deal.
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/419564-ocasio-cortez-fighting-climate-change-will-be-the-civil-rights
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-18, 4:40pm
I think the one thing that is huge and depressing right now (that may not have been in other eras) is widespread environmental degradation. All of our endeavors positive and negative mean nothing if we don't have an earth to live on.
agree 100% but I think we can maybe take peace in the fact that there is a chance we will all be dead then, and that we will die of natural causes before then. Future generations I don't know, not my problem in many senses as hey I don't have kids. I mean I do care from a moral standpoint, but the world is NOT run by people like me, it's run by people like Trump and worse, simply people who do not care about others and the world. And so we get what we get: extinction.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-18, 4:42pm
Just read this in a book about Chris Hedges which speaks to the need to have faith, act according to your values, and then detach yourself from the results
bf and me did two in our private book club: "days of destruction, days of revolt" (very interesting) and "death of the liberal class" (more ranty but we got through it).
Williamsmith
12-22-18, 5:22pm
I think the one thing that is huge and depressing right now (that may not have been in other eras) is widespread environmental degradation. All of our endeavors positive and negative mean nothing if we don't have an earth to live on.
A common sight when I was a child.
2633
Yes, many industrial sites have been cleaned up since the 40s-50s but population has vastly increased and other countries are way behind the curve. We did not have plastic in our oceans and mega-farms with pollution runoff. Vast swaths of new development destroying habitat. Bees dying. I guess we can all hope and believe that technology will save our butts, ex. drones pollinating our plants instead of bees.
catherine
12-22-18, 5:33pm
bf and me did two in our private book club: "days of destruction, days of revolt" (very interesting) and "death of the liberal class" (more ranty but we got through it).
He is ranty, which I'm not crazy about. But I think he's right about many things. I respect that he has seen the world and reported on it at large--he has volunteered to be in places that his journalist colleagues would have no part of, and now those for whom he worked won't give him press (purportedly because he is attempting to slay the dragon that is feeding not only the few news outlets that control most of the media in the US, but the culture at large.)
I am reading him not because I'm as pessimistic as he is but because I like the kind of guy who tries like hell to lead us out of Plato's cave.
I was attracted to him recently because he calls himself a Christian anarchist akin to Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. But he is not a "Christian" in the sense that he's dogmatic about his beliefs--only insofar as he believes in the age-old spiritual directives (Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc.) that we should feed the hungry and clothe the naked and above all beware of of our own hubris.
bf and me did two in our private book club: "days of destruction, days of revolt" (very interesting) and "death of the liberal class" (more ranty but we got through it).
I've followed this most moral journalist for years, reading his books and his essays for "Truthdig."
https://www.truthdig.com/author/chris_hedges/
I've followed this most moral journalist for years, reading his books and his essays for "Truthdig."
https://www.truthdig.com/author/chris_hedges/
Hedges is an interesting guy, and a good deal of his social and political analysis is accurate. Unfortunately, when it comes to solutions, he's too inflexible. Witness his support of Jill Stein over Bernie in 2016.
I don't like incrementalism, but it's the most realistic approach. As Bismark observed, politics is the art of the possible.
This may not be our worst era of the last century or so, but we've always bounced back to some semblance of prosperity. There is not a guarantee that assures that outcome. The climate may have already crossed an irreparable tipping point that could affect health and the economy in the next couple or few decades that at this time seems irreversible. Not to mention the accumulation of persistent pollutants like plastics in our environment and waterways and the loss of natural habitat that is causing the extinction of species. The global balance of power is beyond my understanding, but even the two great wars did not have decisive outcomes at one time and there have been incidents like the Cuban missile crisis where global disaster was narrowly avoided.
I would say that we are living in a dangerous time. There is a reason why science is beginning to define this as a new major division of earth time, the Anthropocene Era, where maybe the old rules of global expansion no longer apply.
Just out of curiosity, which ten eras would you rank as worse?
There are so many to choose from.
I would include a US President leading troops in the field to put down a tax rebellion during a period of economic chaos.
Or the New England secession crisis during the embargo of the Napoleonic Wars belligerents.
Or the time of the Alien and Sedition Acts.
Or the burning of the capital by enemy raiders.
Or Bleeding Kansas.
Or the financial panics of 1819, 1837, 1857, 1873 or 1893.
Or the War Between the States.
Or the period of the Haymarket Riot, Pullman Strike or Homestead Strike.
Or the 1919-20 flu epidemic, punctuated by anarchist bombings.
Or the Great Depression and subsequent power grabs by FDR and bloody labor unrest.
The war against the Axis.
Or the long, perilous Cold War period.
Or the burning city centers of the sixties.
Or Disco.
gimmethesimplelife
12-23-18, 3:02pm
I for my part am very worried as we perch on the edge of 2019. I've never seen America quite like this but older people tell me that 1968 was just as bad but minus the widespread economic oppression and offshoring of opportunity, plus health care wasn't today's nightmare then, either.
But what a mess America truly is in.....in a bitter trade war with China, on the cusp of said trade war escalating with the potential extradition of Ms. Meng from Canada, the ACA being ruled unconstitutional thereby destabilizing health care, one of the few US growth industries......moving along to a stock market in free fall and a leader who seems to delight in alienating former allies. DH and I have spoken of possibly Puerto Rico if not Mexico.....no hassles for me to get in as a US citizen and much less expensive health care that is up to US standards. Also life moves slower there and it is blessedly difficult to get things done (meaning more middle class jobs with benefits for all the gatekeepers/progress blockers).
Puerto Rico comes with numerous issues, too....I am aware of this. But as America continues it's increasingly rapid downward spiral, for some few of us it may be an option. Rob
I remember 1968 as very exhilarating--so much change!--and one of the best years of my life so far.
I have perhaps an optimists belief that this is another of those pivotal times in our history--for the better.
gimmethesimplelife
12-23-18, 3:13pm
I remember 1968 as very exhilarating--so much change!--and one of the best years of my life so far.
I have perhaps an optimists belief that this is another of those pivotal times in our history--for the better.Jane.....I love your optimism, something I seem to be in short supply of. For what it's worth, I hope you are right......The Trump years will take some time to heal and recover from once The Orange Thug is out of office.....question is, will Americans learn anything from the wreckage authored by The Orange Thug? I'm cautiously 50/50 on this one. Rob
Teacher Terry
12-23-18, 3:19pm
I was only 14 back then. My older sister was living in Milwaukee and I remember her talking about all the riots and curfews.
catherine
12-23-18, 3:23pm
1968 was awesome. Yes, there was chaos, confusion, and rebellion, but it was built on optimism (probably accounts for Jane's optimism even now). If you look at the songs from back then, you can't help but feeling good about the future, and good about the things that people cared about back then.
"Where have all the flowers gone.....When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn?"
There are so many to choose from.
I would include a US President leading troops in the field to put down a tax rebellion during a period of economic chaos....
Or Disco.
(Chuckling to myself)
Or rap.
I don't think the dawning of the age of Aquarius ever quite materialized like it was supposed to.
HappyHiker
12-23-18, 5:25pm
This may not be our worst era of the last century or so, but we've always bounced back to some semblance of prosperity. There is not a guarantee that assures that outcome. The climate may have already crossed an irreparable tipping point that could affect health and the economy in the next couple or few decades that at this time seems irreversible. Not to mention the accumulation of persistent pollutants like plastics in our environment and waterways and the loss of natural habitat that is causing the extinction of species. The global balance of power is beyond my understanding, but even the two great wars did not have decisive outcomes at one time and there have been incidents like the Cuban missile crisis where global disaster was narrowly avoided.
I would say that we are living in a dangerous time. There is a reason why science is beginning to define this as a new major division of earth time, the Anthropocene Era, where maybe the old rules of global expansion no longer apply.
I appreciated your posting, Rogar. This is where my head's at, too. When other species, so many of them, start to become extinct, we will soon follow. It's like a snowball rolling down hill. We're all connected. We've failed as a species, imho. We've fouled our nest. Other species try to avoid that.
DH and I have spoken of possibly Puerto Rico if not Mexico.....no hassles for me to get in as a US citizen and much less expensive health care that is up to US standards. Also life moves slower there and it is blessedly difficult to get things done
Puerto Rico comes with numerous issues, too....I am aware of this.
One of the things Puerto Rico was slow to do was restore power to health care facilities, one of the major causes of the thousands of hurricane related deaths. That's not blessed and it's not up to mainland standards.
One of the things Puerto Rico was slow to do was restore power to health care facilities, one of the major causes of the thousands of hurricane related deaths. That's not blessed and it's not up to mainland standards.
I'm not sure they had the workers/expertise to respond in a timely fashion. I remember reading about a non-electrician named Carrion, who was basically risking his life, learning on the fly, to restore power to neighborhoods pole by pole--and he was just one of many brave souls. Now PR is talking privatized electricity, which is exactly the wrong way to go, IMO. There should be a strong push for a public utility centered around solar and other green methods.
Teacher Terry
12-23-18, 6:59pm
PR lost many people that depended on electricity for medical equipment, etc. We didn’t help them and many died as a result.
dado potato
12-23-18, 7:43pm
The news makes me wonder if a shoe is about to drop in the world of Systemically Important Financial Institutions. The market caps of SIFIs have been dropping recently, especially Deutsche Bank, Unicredit, Banco Bilbao, etc.
Then, on Sunday Treasury Secretary Mnuchin interrupted his vacation at Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, to have a phone conversation with the CEOs of the 6 largest US banks. Then he tweeted his version of the gist of the calls. One can read the Tweet among the press releases of the US Treasury. The tweet says that the CEOs confirm that the banks have ample liquidity … they are having no clearance or margin issues... markets are functioning properly.
Treasury Secretary Mnuchin stated his intention to convene a conference call on Monday with the President's Working Group on Financial Markets.
It may just be a coincidence, but Friday Dec 21 was the expiration date for a lot of market index futures, market index options, stock options, and stock futures... a so-called "quadruple witching date".
… Liquidity is about group behavior and group belief in the solvency of counterparties and the reliability of prices. When no one is sure who is broke, and there is high uncertainty about whether prices are meaningful, we will discover that liquidity has vanished, however plentiful it may have been shortly before.
--Alex J. Pollock
The news makes me wonder if a shoe is about to drop in the world of Systemically Important Financial Institutions. The market caps of SIFIs have been dropping recently, especially Deutsche Bank, Unicredit, Banco Bilbao, etc.
Then, on Sunday Treasury Secretary Mnuchin interrupted his vacation at Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, to have a phone conversation with the CEOs of the 6 largest US banks. Then he tweeted his version of the gist of the calls. One can read the Tweet among the press releases of the US Treasury. The tweet says that the CEOs confirm that the banks have ample liquidity … they are having no clearance or margin issues... markets are functioning properly.
Treasury Secretary Mnuchin stated his intention to convene a conference call on Monday with the President's Working Group on Financial Markets.
It may just be a coincidence, but Friday Dec 21 was the expiration date for a lot of market index futures, market index options, stock options, and stock futures... a so-called "quadruple witching date".
… Liquidity is about group behavior and group belief in the solvency of counterparties and the reliability of prices. When no one is sure who is broke, and there is high uncertainty about whether prices are meaningful, we will discover that liquidity has vanished, however plentiful it may have been shortly before.
--Alex J. Pollock
Sort of reminds me of that old Monty Python bit where they kept insisting that there’s no cannibalism in the Royal Navy.
gimmethesimplelife
12-24-18, 11:59am
The stock market this Christmas Eve has dropped over 400 points thus far and has breached the sub 22,000 level. I'm old enough to know what happens next in turbo charged capitalism, as are the rest of us, no? Hang on tight and I wish you and yours what stability you can possibly find/achieve in 2019. Rob
I think some of the market volatility is due to the unpredictable nature of the Trump administration, although the mainstream media has not hit on that one, yet. I'm personally starting to browse interest rates. It could be the first time in years when money market or shorter term CD rates might actually beat inflation, although it might take a little while for interest rate increases to trickle down to us common consumers. I'm seeing it as a boon to us conservative investors.
The stock market this Christmas Eve has dropped over 400 points thus far and has breached the sub 22,000 level. I'm old enough to know what happens next in turbo charged capitalism, as are the rest of us, no? Hang on tight and I wish you and yours what stability you can possibly find/achieve in 2019. Rob
With unemployment levels at record lows and interest rates still very low, what do those in the 85006 worry about? What do they know? I’ve been invested since the early 80’s and this is not the first time we’ve had a bear market.
What do you Suggest? I wish I would have rebalanced a little earlier, but I’m really not to concerned. I’m at a disadvantage as I’m no longer working and adding new money. But those that are will be able to buy at a cheaper price. I can only shift what I have around.
I'm old enough to know what happens next in turbo charged capitalism, as are the rest of us, no?
No.
I don’t know what happens next. Maybe in general terms. Panic sellers will enrich the bolder and better capitalized. Beyond that, I have no macroeconomic crystal ball. That may confer certain advantages over people who think they do.
catherine
12-26-18, 1:26pm
But those that are will be able to buy at a cheaper price. I can only shift what I have around.
I'm throwing in a few bucks at year-end.
iris lilies
12-26-18, 4:25pm
I'm throwing in a few bucks at year-end.
A lot of people went stock shopping today with their christmas money.
catherine
12-26-18, 4:40pm
A lot of people went stock shopping today with their christmas money.
Well, looks like as usual, I missed the boat.
https://www.cnn.com/BUSINESS
organictex
12-26-18, 11:33pm
He is ranty, which I'm not crazy about. But I think he's right about many things. I respect that he has seen the world and reported on it at large--he has volunteered to be in places that his journalist colleagues would have no part of, and now those for whom he worked won't give him press (purportedly because he is attempting to slay the dragon that is feeding not only the few news outlets that control most of the media in the US, but the culture at large.)
I am reading him not because I'm as pessimistic as he is but because I like the kind of guy who tries like hell to lead us out of Plato's cave.
I was attracted to him recently because he calls himself a Christian anarchist akin to Dorothy Day and Peter Maurin. But he is not a "Christian" in the sense that he's dogmatic about his beliefs--only insofar as he believes in the age-old spiritual directives (Christian/Jewish/Muslim/etc.) that we should feed the hungry and clothe the naked and above all beware of of our own hubris.
i'm reading "America: The Farewell Tour" and its good but scary as hell. i have always known
corporations were taking over our democracy, but never realized it was this bad! as the OP it is
difficult to feel optimistic (unless you have your head buried in the sand of some ideology) but we
have no choice but to Fight Back!!
I’m investing in some oil related stocks today. If nothing else If oil continues to drop at least fuel will be cheaper. If it goes up my stocks will be worth more. Just small amounts at this time, Next I’ll add to some of my dividend paying stocks. I’m pretty conservative in my investing these days, I’m even happy with my money market getting close to 3%.
i stay around 50/50 these days.
Williamsmith
12-28-18, 8:19am
I try not to pay much attention to the market specifically as it tends to drive me nuts but I am craving a more behaved market....not one that appears to have anger management problems prone to throwing fits and tantrums. What I do have have invested is in growth but I’m fast getting tempted to readjust toward preservation. A local bank has CD’s that are paying 2.75% and I’m looking at that thinking that after all my management fees and assumption of risk....I might sleep better at night if I bought some pain old certificates of deposit.
To oversimplify, I think things have always been a combination of growth and decay, hope and despair. Many things ARE getting worse (environmental pollution, climate change, class/wealth/gender divisions and inequity, overpopulation, falling birth rate, lowered life expectancy, people living so they run out of money, etc.). On the other hand, we have more people around to solve problems--not just contribute to them. Billions have access to the internet, which offers a cornucopia of information, creativity, and inspiration (as well as its darker purposes).
People tend to look at what areas of life are near and dear to their hearts, so if there are "struggles" in those areas (e.g., I live in Las Vegas, where the local school system is, quite frankly, abysmal--so I have confirmation bias when I look at other problematic school districts across the country), we think the same is going on worldwide. It probably isn't--there are always the brightest of sparks, candles cursing the darkness, if you look hard enough.
iris lilies
12-28-18, 10:54am
I try not to pay much attention to the market specifically as it tends to drive me nuts but I am craving a more behaved market....not one that appears to have anger management problems prone to throwing fits and tantrums. What I do have have invested is in growth but I’m fast getting tempted to readjust toward preservation. A local bank has CD’s that are paying 2.75% and I’m looking at that thinking that after all my management fees and assumption of risk....I might sleep better at night if I bought some pain old certificates of deposit.
”anger management issues” defining the market makes me laugh!
We are in preservation mode, not growth mode. I was absolutely amazed to look up my 457 account a little more than a week ago and find that it was essentially the same as this time last year. Much of it is in an index fund the rest of it’s in a CD. I’m sure it is down by now though, a few days later.
HappyHiker
12-28-18, 3:59pm
Original poster, here...
Does anyone else find it interesting that this thread has turned into commentary about stocks and investments?? Not a criticism at all, just an observation.
I do understand. I'm rather grieving for the new slenderness of our stock portfolio -- while my physical slenderness grows ever plumper during this holiday season of good and ample eating.
ApatheticNoMore
12-29-18, 12:43am
I think it started with worry about a recession, which I understand, but shrug. There's nothing anyone can do about that, it won't be primarily caused by Trump but by the business cycle which existed long before him (blame capitalism if one wants to blame), although he adds some volatility to things.
And meanwhile in this mythical, as a unicorn, "good economy" the people that I got to know in the unemployment support group (and it was an action focused group) that were unemployed almost 3 months ago when I got this position are STILL unemployed. Noone in that group is so marginal they should be unable to work, but some are really top tier (but perhaps over 50 which is probably fatal). It's bad out there, but who can worry that much about it getting worse, it's just one foot in front of the other forever amen.
catherine
12-29-18, 9:05am
Original poster, here...
Does anyone else find it interesting that this thread has turned into commentary about stocks and investments?? Not a criticism at all, just an observation.
I do understand. I'm rather grieving for the new slenderness of our stock portfolio -- while my physical slenderness grows ever plumper during this holiday season of good and ample eating.
Yes, it is interesting. But not surprising. We equate wellness with wealth, unlike other countries that equate wellness with wellbeing of all of its citizens. That's why GDP is our marker of how well we are doing, but ignores other factors, such as access to healthcare and good education, community vitality, and ecological health. Our minds go straight to the bucks--even if those bucks are merely a symbol for the degree to which the environment has been raped for them, how few people have benefited from them, and the societal ills that they are supporting.
JaneV2.0
12-29-18, 10:50am
Yes, it is interesting. But not surprising. We equate wellness with wealth, unlike other countries that equate wellness with wellbeing of all of its citizens. That's why GDP is our marker of how well we are doing, but ignores other factors, such as access to healthcare and good education, community vitality, and ecological health. Our minds go straight to the bucks--even if those bucks are merely a symbol for the degree to which the environment has been raped for them, how few people have benefited from them, and the societal ills that they are supporting.
Well said, Catherine.
Greed is now a religion--no better than the old model in terms of cruelty and subjugation of the masses.
ToomuchStuff
12-29-18, 4:54pm
Well said, Catherine.
Greed is now a religion--no better than the old model in terms of cruelty and subjugation of the masses.
LOL, Prosperity gospel and the history of Churches and money, not withstanding, eh?
catherine
12-29-18, 5:38pm
LOL, Prosperity gospel and the history of Churches and money, not withstanding, eh?
Yes. Religion comes in different forms. My religious heroes are St. Francis, Dorothy Day, Thich Nhat Hanh, Buddha, Peace Pilgrim and many others of their ilk. Certainly not a greedy bone in any of their bodies. As soon as a religion becomes an institution, serving "mammon" is harder to avoid.
Personally, I think a bit of greed can be a good thing in that it spurs achievement. It's easy to accuse people of greed when you're after some of what they've got.
catherine
12-31-18, 7:54am
Personally, I think a bit of greed can be a good thing in that it spurs achievement. It's easy to accuse people of greed when you're after some of what they've got.
When I see an inordinately angry person I don't want to be like them. When I see a glutton, I don't want their food. Why is it that of all the 7 deadly sins, greed is the one that has become a virtue? In terms of motivation for achievement, a little healthy ambition is not greed. Ordinary, well-directed human desire is not greed.
That "greed is good" mentality is so 80s.
gimmethesimplelife
12-31-18, 8:04am
Well said, Catherine.
Greed is now a religion--no better than the old model in terms of cruelty and subjugation of the masses.Jane, I agree with you that greed is a religion in America. J personally trace this back to the Reagan years and it's of course gotten much worse since then. But one cool thing? I have been running across people from time to time who completely reject this greed as religion concept and live their lives in such a way as to rebel to some degree against this national belief. There are some people out there awoken against living this way, something that gives me hope for the future. Rob
JaneV2.0
12-31-18, 10:38am
Jane, I agree with you that greed is a religion in America. J personally trace this back to the Reagan years and it's of course gotten much worse since then. But one cool thing? I have been running across people from time to time who completely reject this greed as religion concept and live their lives in such a way as to rebel to some degree against this national belief. There are some people out there awoken against living this way, something that gives me hope for the future. Rob
I hope so, and I tend to agree it started--or at least increased and was encouraged--by Reagan, who was in charge when "greed is good" emerged as a rallying cry for his base. I have hope the Millennials will reject such a dead-end philosophy, and reverse the laissez-faire capitalism that has gutted the commons and threatens to pauperize the rest of us.
My 3 millennial children give me hope - they reject materialism.
When I see an inordinately angry person I don't want to be like them. When I see a glutton, I don't want their food. Why is it that of all the 7 deadly sins, greed is the one that has become a virtue? In terms of motivation for achievement, a little healthy ambition is not greed. Ordinary, well-directed human desire is not greed.
That "greed is good" mentality is so 80s.
It’s such a wonderfully flexible term, isn’t it? You can rail about the 1%’s greed. A Zambian peasant could rail about yours. Any level of sanctimony, envy or spite can be ennobled by preaching about someone else’s lack of virtue. It’s the perfect have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too form of virtue signaling. It allows us to pretend all our problems could be solved if only we could tear down a few wealthy malefactors. We can indulge our baser instincts while congratulating ourselves on our high thinking.
I thoroughly enjoyed the eighties.
catherine
12-31-18, 9:58pm
It’s such a wonderfully flexible term, isn’t it? You can rail about the 1%’s greed. A Zambian peasant could rail about yours. Any level of sanctimony, envy or spite can be ennobled by preaching about someone else’s lack of virtue. It’s the perfect have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too form of virtue signaling. It allows us to pretend all our problems could be solved if only we could tear down a few wealthy malefactors. We can indulge our baser instincts while congratulating ourselves on our high thinking.
That's really not what I'm saying at all. I'm not saying that everyone in the 1% is greedy. I'm not saying everyone that has more than I do is greedy. I'm not a judge of greed, but like porno, I know it when I see it--just as anyone can identify any virtue or vice when they see it.
In my mind greed is what comes to mind when I read this...whole article here (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/31/health/memorial-sloan-kettering-conflicts.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage). About Sloan Kettering staff dismayed at the direction their leadership is taking.
The meeting ended after several doctors advocated an immediate no-confidence vote in the hospital’s senior leadership. The turmoil followed reports by The New York Times and ProPublica that the hospital’s chief medical officer, Dr. José Baselga, had been paid millions by drug and health care companies and failed to disclose those ties more than 100 times in medical journals, and that hospital insiders had made lucrative side deals that stood to earn them handsome profits, sometimes for work they had done on the job.
With that, I am going to take my baser instincts and high thinking out of this discussion.
Happy New Year, LDAHL. BTW, my son and DDIL bought the book Reagan by Bob Spitz for my husband for Christmas.
Williamsmith
12-31-18, 10:07pm
It’s such a wonderfully flexible term, isn’t it? You can rail about the 1%’s greed. A Zambian peasant could rail about yours. Any level of sanctimony, envy or spite can be ennobled by preaching about someone else’s lack of virtue. It’s the perfect have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too form of virtue signaling. It allows us to pretend all our problems could be solved if only we could tear down a few wealthy malefactors. We can indulge our baser instincts while congratulating ourselves on our high thinking.
I thoroughly enjoyed the eighties.
I think what Catherine is referring to is more accurately termed, “exploitation”. I doubt she begrudges a hard working person the fruits of their labors. But it’s disingenuous to pretend that amongst the wealthiest of this country there isn’t a remnant that did not honestly obtain their wealth through the aforementioned sweat of their brow. History is saturated with accounts of such people. And the term is properly...” eat your cake and have it too.”
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