View Full Version : Rob—Men’s Rights Activism
iris lilies
4-8-19, 1:27pm
Rob,
On another post you mentioned that you are now doing “men’s rights activism “
My general impression from your past posts is that you were a little sympathetic to men’s rights issues and red pill philosophy But you were a listener, not an action man.
If you are actually engaging in “activism “in the men’s rights arena, why don’t you share that here? Is it because you think it will be not received well?What are you actively doing to further the men’s rights movement?
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-19, 8:31pm
Rob,
On another post you mentioned that you are now doing “men’s rights activism “
My general impression from your past posts is that you were a little sympathetic to men’s rights issues and red pill philosophy But you were a listener, not an action man.
If you are actually engaging in “activism “in the men’s rights arena, why don’t you share that here? Is it because you think it will be not received well?What are you actively doing to further the men’s rights movement?Hi IL......I must say I am impressed that you are familiar with the concept of the red pill and how this applies to the Men's Rights Movement. To answer your question, my activism remains online and in in-person meetings/get-togethers - I have not protested in the same way as during the Dr. Dao/United Airlines incident (friends still don't let friends fly the hostile, threatening and dangerous skies of United Airlines). I do believe certain aspects of this movement are a tad extreme - until I look at cases of extreme feminism. What I am seeking - and what many others are seeking - is the same right for men to walk away from traditional roles that feminism and society have allowed women. And a leveling of alimony/child support payments with no prison required should a man be laid off a job through no fault of his own. I'd go further in a least trying to find men victimized by the Great Recession and who lost their jobs once again through no fault of their own and who were thrown in prison for being unable to pay child support through no fault of their own - I'd like to see permanent residency for a least a sub set of these unfortunate victims - permanent residency in one of the many better countries with a chance to walk away from America permanently and start over. You'd be amazed at how many such men would jump and be grateful for the chance to put America in their rear view mirror.
But I digress. Not all Men's Rights Activists are seeking this last, just to be clear. That's a bit of a Rob spin on these issues, though I'm far from the only male out there that believes such is just and right. Has this overview answered your question? Rob
But I digress. Not all Men's Rights Activists are seeking this last, just to be clear. That's a bit of a Rob spin on these issues, though I'm far from the only male out there that believes such is just and right. Has this overview answered your question? RobReally? I was just thinking that after spending part of the 50's and all of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90, aught's and 10's meeting, talking and interacting with people of all sorts, including men, you're the only one I know who believes such a thing.
Though in all fairness, I may need to get out more.
Rob,
sympathetic to men’s rights issues and red pill philosophy
Men's rights and red pill do occasionally intersect in the manosphere, but really they can be quite distinct, and I would say the majority of red pill philosophers eschew MRM altogether. So following this one to see where it goes....
Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea what is being said referring to 'red pill philosophers'?
iris lilies
4-8-19, 10:10pm
Men's rights and red pill do occasionally intersect in the manosphere, but really they can be quite distinct, and I would say the majority of red pill philosophers eschew MRM altogether. So following this one to see where it goes....
Oh! I just figured one was further on a spectrum. Interesting.
Long time no see,Yo.
iris lilies
4-8-19, 10:14pm
Hi IL......I must say I am impressed that you are familiar with the concept of the red pill and how this applies to the Men's Rights Movement. To answer your question, my activism remains online and in in-person meetings/get-togethers - I have not protested in the same way as during the Dr. Dao/United Airlines incident (friends still don't let friends fly the hostile, threatening and dangerous skies of United Airlines). I do believe certain aspects of this movement are a tad extreme - until I look at cases of extreme feminism. What I am seeking - and what many others are seeking - is the same right for men to walk away from traditional roles that feminism and society have allowed women. And a leveling of alimony/child support payments with no prison required should a man be laid off a job through no fault of his own. I'd go further in a least trying to find men victimized by the Great Recession and who lost their jobs once again through no fault of their own and who were thrown in prison for being unable to pay child support through no fault of their own - I'd like to see permanent residency for a least a sub set of these unfortunate victims - permanent residency in one of the many better countries with a chance to walk away from America permanently and start over. You'd be amazed at how many such men would jump and be grateful for the chance to put America in their rear view mirror.
But I digress. Not all Men's Rights Activists are seeking this last, just to be clear. That's a bit of a Rob spin on these issues, though I'm far from the only male out there that believes such is just and right. Has this overview answered your question? Rob
yes, this is a nice summary of your thoughts and activities.
What about that Homeland Security female person and your comment in another thread about her vis a vis your Men’s
Rights activism?
Oh! I just figured one was further on a spectrum. Interesting.
Long time no see,Yo.
MGTOW and Men's Rights would be opposite ends of a spectrum, but are traceable along a single arc of responses to a perceived societal bias. RP is really just a politically incorrect, amoral system of applied evolutionary psychology aimed at the sexual dynamics between men and women with no societal prescriptions, men's rights or otherwise. But as far as I can tell it is fundamentally applicable in only straight relationships so kicking back with popcorn on this one to see where it goes. And thanks K, good to see you all again
Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea what is being said referring to 'red pill philosophers'?
Red pill/blue pill ties back to the move The Matrix. Neo (played by Keanu Reeves in the movie) is offered the choice of taking the "red pill" or the "blue pill". The red pill was harsh knowledge. The blue pill was happy ignorance of what was really happening in the world.
Red pill philosophy is a counter-intuitive "men's rights" idea that women actually have it better in society than men do. Men's rights adherents think that they have figured out the "harsh knowledge" of how badly they are being treated because women actually have it better.
This article provides a decent explanation. I'm not an expert on the whole "men's rights" thing since I don't think the idea has much merit so I haven't studied it extensively, so I'll let Rob weight in on the validity or lack thereof of the article.
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-red-pill-reddit-2013-8
gimmethesimplelife
4-8-19, 11:25pm
Really? I was just thinking that after spending part of the 50's and all of the 60's, 70's, 80's, 90, aught's and 10's meeting, talking and interacting with people of all sorts, including men, you're the only one I know who believes such a thing.
Though in all fairness, I may need to get out more.In all fairness and with no snark intended, yes, you need to get out more. And socialize with the sub 35 years of age set.....younger guys are waking up to these issues these days and have a different take on male/female relations than our age group does/did - for reference, I am 52 years of age and I'm guessing that we are roughly near each other in age? At least closer than we both are in age to either of us being young...….Rob
let Rob weight in on the validity or lack thereof of the article.
https://www.businessinsider.com/the-red-pill-reddit-2013-8
Obviously not Rob, but I don't think that article does a very good job of explaining. Red pill is about the revelation that women don't act or respond optimally to the behaviors men are taught by society to emulate to get, well, laid. That women are motivated by certain psychological attributes that, once understood, can be leveraged to be more successful in dating and relationships (if your idea of success is more sex for less investment). Theories revolve mostly around how to be more attractive and effective in the sexual marketplace. The advocated behaviors for men can apply inside or out of a committed relationship, but are probably most effective outside of a traditional marriage.
MGTOW and Men's Rights are more focused on how the current societal and legal systems are not good for men, with MGTOW opting out of traditional (or sometimes any) relationships and MR trying to reform the system. But don't conflate the three, while each may have disdain for traditional marriage and therefore intersect in some discussions, each has a different viewpoint and fundamental goal, and at least between MR/MGTOW vs RP, very different philosophical approaches.
ApatheticNoMore
4-8-19, 11:53pm
Maybe some of the legal stuff has some basis, if you can't pay child support you can't pay it I guess, but if child support isn't going to support the kid who is? I guess I'd be ok with the "society" answer but we don't have that kind of social safety net (and actually ever less of it - welfare reform and all that). I'm not saying mothers don't usually also work, but single motherhood is an extremely tough row to hoe.
Most of the other stuff though is just pure 100% misogyny though.
Obviously not Rob, but I don't think that article does a very good job of explaining. Red pill is about the revelation that women don't act or respond optimally to the behaviors men are taught by society to emulate to get, well, laid. That women are motivated by certain psychological attributes that, once understood, can be leveraged to be more successful in dating and relationships (if your idea of success is more sex for less investment). Theories revolve mostly around how to be more attractive and effective in the sexual marketplace. The advocated behaviors for men can apply inside or out of a committed relationship, but are probably most effective outside of a traditional marriage.
MGTOW and Men's Rights are more focused on how the current societal and legal systems are not good for men, with MGTOW opting out of traditional (or sometimes any) relationships and MR trying to reform the system. But don't conflate the three, while each may have disdain for traditional marriage and therefore intersect in some discussions, each has a different viewpoint and fundamental goal, and at least between MR/MGTOW vs RP, very different philosophical approaches.
Fascinating. And thank you for that explanation. As a gay man I've never thought about much of this, at least from the straight male perspective. I would agree that there's a learning curve for anyone wanting to get laid, regardless of their sexuality. It wasn't until I "figured things out" so to say, that I started getting laid on a regular basis. But "figure things out" I did and then got consistently laid. Eventually I decided that I wanted more than just getting laid and during that time (16 years ago) I met SO.
I feel bad that there's apparently a sizable group of fellows who haven't figured out how the game works and continue to try and play the game by the fake rules that they've been taught.
I'm curious what the relationship is between MGTOW's and Incels. Are they one and the same? Or do the MGTOWs acknowledge that it's their decision to become celibate rather than blame the people who don't want to have sex with them due to their lack of sexual attraction?
Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea what is being said referring to 'red pill philosophers'?
I also am ignorant of this idea.
ApatheticNoMore
4-9-19, 12:30am
Just a bunch of men telling women what they want (or what they are supposed to want, or someone said we want, or what they think they want, because all women's are the same!). Women's role is of course to shut up, as it's ever been. until eventually obviously, the last thing we want is much of anything to do with men.
Incels I know about. And the matrix I know about. And men’s rights I know about.
Just never heard of it referred to as the red pill.
I’m for human rights. Men and women and all the other genders. Including as much autonomy as possible for children, who often are ignored in this striving for freedom for all.
iris lilies
4-9-19, 12:53am
Incels I know about. And the matrix I know about. And men’s rights I know about.
Just never heard of it referred to as the red pill.
I’m for human rights. Men and women and all the other genders. Including as much autonomy as possible for children, who often are ignored in this striving for freedom for all.
No no no I am the one who lumped red pill and Men’s Rights movement together but they do not belong together.
No. Apparently they do belong together. You were inadvertently super smart. If only you’d also tied in the incels people would be calling you a genius!
I just read up on all of them so now I’m woke. 😄
flowerseverywhere
4-9-19, 7:26am
Well I knew about red pill, blue pill but had to look up MGTOW.
Interesting. I would think celibacy and avoidance of relationships with women would be a very lonely existence.
Under it all I sensed a victim mentality. Correct me if I’m wrong (like you wouldn’t ha ha).
what differentiates this movement from people who go to great lengths to avoid people of color, or gay people, immigrants or hide behind gated communities to isolate themselves from the poor huddled masses? Is the MGTOW hat speech against women?
I'm curious what the relationship is between MGTOW's and Incels. Are they one and the same? Or do the MGTOWs acknowledge that it's their decision to become celibate rather than blame the people who don't want to have sex with them due to their lack of sexual attraction?
Well, the result is the same, but Incel is "involuntarily celibate" so it's a matter of choice in how you got there.
And red pill is not politically correct, it is purely about effectiveness, which irritates some people. But then there are some things that make you go hmmm. For example, one of the widely accepted tenets is that women are predisposed to hook up with sexually attractive men, what we called "studs" in my day (I am also 52), or what they call "Chads" today. This is even at the expense of other more equal relationships, so this is the golden age of dating for attractive men. There are some studies that show the vast majority of women online chase the top 20% of men (kind of a sexual Pareto Principle), whereas men are more inclined to consider comparable partners. This leaves a lot of men without partners, thus "incels". Tinder is more than a dating site, it's a social engineering catalyst.
And you may want to say BS, but consider the empirical evidence. How do you explain this:
For most of the past three decades, 20-something men and women reported similar rates of sexlessness. But that has changed in recent years. Since 2008, the share of men younger than 30 reporting no sex has nearly tripled, to 28 percent. That's a much steeper increase than the 8 percentage point increase reported among their female peers.
https://www.sciencealert.com/the-percentage-of-americans-not-having-sex-has-reached-a-record-high
For that to be true, a smaller number of men have to be having sex with a larger number of women. So people want to dismiss red pill as misogyny and it does attract some troubled people, but like I said before at its core it's just amoral and empirical.
My perception of what I've read is that incel men are wanting to get sexual partners despite what might be considered their own obvious turn-offs: overweight, minimal hygiene, shaky financial situation, bland/no personality, etc.
In contrast, women's magazines in particular are constantly exhorting single women to improve their odds by keeping in shape, wearing fashionable clothes, getting trendy haircuts and eyeglasses, having a pleasing and accessible personality, hanging out in places where single men congregate, making an effort to learn their potential partner's areas of interest like sports or cars, etc.
I realize that this is a shallow overview, and I don't know any incels personally, but I wonder if this is part of it, i.e., not putting any effort into attracting the partner you want.
I see the men's rights movement--at least as it limits itself to legal issues--as different from the misogynistic incel thing, though I'm sure there's overlap.
Incels' grievance is that women owe them sex somehow and aren't delivering. They celebrate mass murderers who target women, like Elliot Rodger.
Men's rights advocates believe (justifiably, in some cases) they don't get a fair shake in divorce and custody cases. At least that's my take on it.
There are some studies that show the vast majority of women online chase the top 20% of men (kind of a sexual Pareto Principle), whereas men are more inclined to consider comparable partners.
Back in my dating days, which admittedly was several decades ago, I found that what I would consider unattractive men, or ones who had little to contribute to a relationship almost invariably went for the super model/popular girl type instead of someone of similar attractiveness and social interaction skills.
There's nothing involuntary about the incels' celebacy. It would more accurately be called lazy cellibacy because they're too lazy/unwilling to look in the mirror and figure out why women are not attracted to them. But I suppose it's easier to take a whiny, self-pitying attitude and blame others for one's problems. But at least they aren't likely to have children and pass their crappy attitudes on to another generation.
ApatheticNoMore
4-9-19, 12:38pm
Back in my dating days, which admittedly was several decades ago, I found that what I would consider unattractive men, or ones who had little to contribute to a relationship almost invariably went for the super model/popular girl type instead of someone of similar attractiveness and social interaction skills.
I attribute it to most men under 30 being abusive jerks (it seems to be all I ever found), and if most women are like me they can take or leave sex so don't really need to be in relationship the way men do (but emotional abuse even though one keeps taking it and taking it gets old. what I needed was to be treated well). But call me ACE if you like but it's only partly true. It's probably the case I gave up on men even influenced by American culture and it's toxic masculinity. It wasn't conscious but .. I'm dating someone raised by immigrants who never seems to have been entirely part of this culture. They aren't stereotypiclly masculine (you know for cis and all). I men I think I couldn't even deal with the BS anymore.
Are there good men out there? I'm sure there are. I just kept dating red pill and other jerks. But men over 30 are probably much more mature and just better bets all around (don't know what to say to women under 30 ...). I was probably single so much because I just kept encountering red pill jerks, bad luck and all, yea.
A person very close to me had something really horrible happen to him. He works in corporate, and he was colleagues on a couple of teams with a particular woman, I'll call "M."
They were working on a project, and she was doing things unilaterally--and wrong. So she would do things they hadn't agreed on, and then email people, leaving him off the email chain. Things got so bad, he spoke to their supervisor about it. Well, she found out and went berserk, saying he was out to sabatoge her and make her look bad. He assured her that wasn't the case--that he just needed her to be on the same team with him and for them to work together.
Well, a few days later, he was approached by HR. She had accused him of sexual harassment. To make a long story short, a) it was a completely bogus claim, b) they took him off the committees that he was instrumental on--big projects that he enjoyed--while they investigated. He was petrified to even pass her alone in the hall for fear of what she might say.
Thankfully, HR was unable to corroborate her allegations, and the charges were dismissed. But it disrupted a couple of months of valuable work time, put him in stress mode, and soured the entire workplace for him--he'll likely look for another job soon.
While I think the #MeToo movement is valuable in many ways, when you have women doing other women a grave disservice by making these things up, it's a disgrace for those women and a shame for the men they victimize.
I guess the moral of the story is that both males and females can be perpetrators as well as victims. We're just not used to seeing the shoe on the other foot.
When did life get so complicated?
I dated a very limited number of men; I just wasn't that interested beyond friendship. I met a dear man who became a rare friend and then married him. Doesn't that kind of simple relationship happen anymore?
The whole "pickup-artist"/"game" subculture is really bizarre to me.
The whole "pickup-artist"/"game" subculture is really bizarre to me.
I think PUA has been pushed to the corners, authenticity seems to outshine manipulation, even when it requires transformation.
There's nothing involuntary about the incels' celebacy. It would more accurately be called lazy cellibacy because they're too lazy/unwilling to look in the mirror and figure out why women are not attracted to them. But I suppose it's easier to take a whiny, self-pitying attitude and blame others for one's problems. But at least they aren't likely to have children and pass their crappy attitudes on to another generation.
jp1,
I agree with your assessment here. The numbers of single men vs. single women would suggest that men have the numbers advantage. That, plus the ease of internet searching for dates, seems like it should be the women who should be complaining.
The whole "pickup-artist"/"game" subculture is really bizarre to me.
A number of years ago I followed a blog by someone into constant self improvement and 30 day challenges (Ultralight would have liked it). His forum became overrun with a bro field of PUA and PUA-wannabe's. There seemed to be this magical belief that if you did A, B and C that you were guaranteed the woman of your dreams. She of course had nothing to say about it. They were entitled, and they were going to have it. Because women are a monolith, and all respond to the same things. <eye roll>
jp1,
I agree with your assessment here. The numbers of single men vs. single women would suggest that men have the numbers advantage. That, plus the ease of internet searching for dates, seems like it should be the women who should be complaining.
Women do complain that the odds are good but the goods are odd.
My observation has been that the incel sense of thwarted entitlement occurs all along the various spectra of sexual proclivity, especially among the young. I think it's possibly due to a combination of immaturity and everyone gets a trophy child rearing.
at least they aren't likely to have children and pass their crappy attitudes on to another generation.
Genetic propagation may be a subtext, but not based on attitude. What they incels would tell you is that we have moved from a social system of forced pairing back to the natural order. Women flock to the alpha males readily available online and leave the bottom percentile of men without options. The corollary is that women complain the guys they are hooking up with won't commit when of course those men have incentive to when they can so readily find new partners through that same dynamic. It's not universal, but may have some impact:
https://images.app.goo.gl/YP7br65Jveu658iTA
My observation has been that the incel sense of thwarted entitlement occurs all along the various spectra of sexual proclivity, especially among the young. I think it's possibly due to a combination of immaturity and everyone gets a trophy child rearing.
It's so odd.
I'm in my mid-50s. I'm not movie-star attractive. I don't engage in displays of social dominance. I'm introverted and have no "game".
I go to places with other humans present, do the things I enjoy doing, and people seem to be friendly and interested in having "fun" with me.
I suppose if I lived in my Mom's basement and played video games all day, I might have different results.
IMO, looks have nothing--or little--to do with attracting women. Look at Henry Kissinger. There's a lid for every pot--even for unattractive males who hate women and have few redeeming characteristics. Of course, if they think they "deserve" a supermodel, all bets are off.
gimmethesimplelife
4-10-19, 9:37pm
Wow! I wasn't expecting a discussion of this issue to take place but cool that it did.
It's a little funky for me to be in the Men's Rights Movement. It's mostly straight men and the way I learned of these issues was by going to my 30th High School Reunion. Some formerly A Hole Guys were very decent to me, apologetic for the past, and very accepting of me - so I listened to what they had to say and to the stories of their lives. I had no idea of what straight men endured in this society and how vulnerable they are to how current family law, divorce law, and child support laws work. I had no idea how vulnerable men are to prison and to homelessness due to these laws and honestly, not only will I never see society the same way again......I really owe an apology to straight men in general. I honestly did not know, much as those who had have stable lives are not going to be able to relate well to my takes on America.
I know both Men's Rights Activists (who I do feel a kinship with as I myself am an activist) and MGTOWS. (men going their own way). The latter are the ones that society should pay some attention to as these guys have packed their toys and left the building, essentially to some degree, and the degree will vary with individual, withdrawing participation from society. Why society should take note is that typically it is men who make inventions, men tend to do the heavy physical labor and the dangerous jobs, and men are the ones who fight war. Don't expect these mgtows to play those roles going forward, especially the older ones who were burned by the system, especially by Family Law Courts.
Honestly, hearing their stories and knowing of their suffering - I am very embarrassed that it took me so long to clue into this. Essentially, the overall take here is that the laws are now going too damned far to the point of being a danger to law abiding men and to making it such that the smartest move for a man in this society is to just go his own way. No wife, no kids, much less legal and financial vulnerability. From what I understand, watch the marriage rate continue to break records for fewer folks marrying to begin with, and watch birth rates continue to plummet. With Trump at the helm, there will be fewer immigrants to have the children that long term men in the US don't want to have, so immigration is not an answer at the moment, anyway. I'd say young people right now would be best served assuming that they will be going through life single and without kids. Certainly exceptions to this can, will, and do exist - but not enough to keep up birth and marriage rates.
What needs to change if anyone cares? No more just picking up a phone on the part of a woman and telling a lie to get a man arrested and permanently out of a house or apartment. No more prison if a man loses his job through no fault of his own and can't keep up child support payments through no fault of his own. No huge reductions in the standard of living for a man after divorce - woman are equal to men, they can suffer a standard of living drop, too. Good for the goose, good for the gander ,and vice versa. Less auto granting full custody to women and more full custody to men. Women paying alimony much more often - and signing to alimony terms before a marriage starts and this document being 100 percent valid for any future legal proceedings. Instant permanent residency in one of the better countries in the case of a judge overturning such a document so that the man involved can bail the US at will with no consequence.
I can think of many other terms and conditions but the general gist? Men seen as humans throughout the entire divorce, marriage, and child rearing processes with women getting equal but not one bit of preferential treatment, perhaps with a foundation set up at least in the beginning for men to achieve instant settlements for when the system goes back against any of the proposed changes should they ever (and eventually, if enough men withdraw from society, some of this will have to be instituted) be implemented. In short, men going forward in life on an equal footing with women and all of the societal change and chaos that would ensue with men for once putting themselves first and going their own way. Rob
PS Came back to add - at my 30th High School Reunion I ran into Larry Kearsley ,which means nothing to anyone else here, I get that. He with the fully restored '65 Mustang was someone I was always afraid would beat the living blank out of me. He, Larry Kearsley of all people, was just getting out of court enforced poverty via his divorce from his ex wife. The system even got him.....that was a stunner for me. Not only that but he actually asked me how my life was and if I'd found a man or was single - asked in a very civil and decent, accepting kind of way. I'd still be into this if I hadn't run across Larry Kearsley, but his brutal reduction in life via the Family Court System? For me it changed my world view in this area and I no longer auto side with women in these issues - all are equal in my mind and now the man's take gets equal weight. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-10-19, 10:14pm
No no no I am the one who lumped red pill and Men’s Rights movement together but they do not belong together.One way these two concepts inter-relate: Usually, Men's Rights Activists AND Mgtows (this is one way in which they are similar) have "taken the red pill" - accepted some very horrible truths regarding the nature of male/female relationships in Western society. To make this easier to understand, a man taking a red pill regarding women and relationships? In a way it's like me facing some bitter truths about America at a very young age society would rather I never understood - it's all about facing life-altering truths from which there is no unseeing the truth(s) in question. Same basic concept, different application. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-10-19, 10:19pm
jp1,
I agree with your assessment here. The numbers of single men vs. single women would suggest that men have the numbers advantage. That, plus the ease of internet searching for dates, seems like it should be the women who should be complaining.Granted, I don't know this through personal life experience, I'm getting this from The Fab Fifteen (a group of high school acquaintances of mine who have been through the ringer of the American Divorce Industry, but there's only nine of us, not sure why this title was applied)......who tell me that women prefer only the top 20 percent of men, which leaves 80 percent of men for the most part out in the cold with few options. I don't know this to be true, personally, but how would I? I don't bat on that team as it were.......but my point is that numbers here very much work against men.....and due to women's limited acceptance of men in general - the numbers don't seem to be looking good for women, either. My question is - why is this? For what purpose or gain for either gender? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-10-19, 10:30pm
yes, this is a nice summary of your thoughts and activities.
What about that Homeland Security female person and your comment in another thread about her vis a vis your Men’s
Rights activism?The point with mentioning former DHS Secretary Nielsen is that due to my involvement in this area, there are those who might expect me not to have any sympathy for Nielsen. I try to take these things on a case by case basis. Though I found Nielsen cruel and hostile as a DHS Secretary, I do take her side regardless as she has stood up to Trump before and she did draw lines in the sand - likely leading to her resignation. Trump is much worse than she is is my take. So I do feel sorry for her even though I am sympathetic to Men's Rights. Rob
iris lilies
4-10-19, 11:34pm
Ah, well taking things on a “case by case basis” seems much more responsible than automatically assuming she is wrong because WOMAN.
Teacher Terry
4-10-19, 11:35pm
Rob, I don’t feel sorry for her at all. If you agree to work for trump you know what you are getting into.
gimmethesimplelife
4-11-19, 12:11am
Ah, well taking things on a “case by case basis” seems much more responsible than automatically assuming she is wrong because WOMAN.Thank You I guess but I do have something to add here, IL. This street goes two ways and not only is it a street but it's a highly powered Autobahn. Women need to also have this basic respect and treat men to some degree also on a case by case basis. As with women, there are some male specimens out there that are real pieces of work - and I do understand that this Autobahn goes two ways, too. I've even dated a few (gay) such pieces of work - I didn't really have to give that one word explanation at this point, though, did I? Not all men are monsters, not all women are gold-diggers - I hold these two truths to be self evident. Problem being, there are some male monsters and there are some female gold diggers. Caution for all is advised. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-11-19, 12:13am
Rob, I don’t feel sorry for her at all. If you agree to work for trump you know what you are getting into.TT, I don't completely disagree with your take here - the reason I do break from it with a more sympathetic stance is that Nielsen did stand up to Trump and when he asked her to cross clear legal lines, she did refuse. I'm not saying she's a wonderful human being - I'm saying there was a level she would not sink to and she was willing to hold her own against Trump in her refusal to sink to this level. To me, that's worth some respect, though I do understand that YMMV. Rob
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