View Full Version : Grad School Debate
There is no way I'd go into debt for a counseling degree. But we've had this discussion before. Here, everyone and his brother is getting that degree.
I beg you, get some realistic job predictions before you sign up for this program and no, not from the professors who teach--you are their product, they need you in the seats to earn their pay.
I don't know what field "gerontology" is in--health administration? ? social sciences? Social work?
Could you possibly look for work and move to the town where the gerontology program is based?
I agree with IL about not going into debt for a master's in counselling. These statistics are for those graduating with BAs, but I believe the trends in salary carry over pretty consistently for those with graduate degrees as well. Note that Psychology and Social Work are at the ABSOLUTE BOTTOM of the scale, while Health is pretty far up.
http://chronicle.com/article/Median-Earnings-by-Major-and/127604/
My advice would be don't set yourself up for years of paying off student loans on a low salary.
lhamo
the long term outcome of 1. you like it better and 2. you have a better chance at a job would take me to plan B every time. and 2 years instead of 3 is nothing to scoff at either.
If it were me and I wanted to get into a totally new career, assuming that you don't work in either field, I would volunteer at one of your prospective career decisions. That way you might be better able to make a decision on your career goals.
IMHO, a career is more about exposure to different things and sometimes things and jobs are not what they seem. I would deal with your money issues before I did something as dramatic as a career change. I have often wondered about debt for education.
Peace
ApatheticNoMore
5-28-11, 8:55pm
I have pretty much decided to go to grad school in the fall as I think it is the only way for me to earn enough to support myself. I'm divorced, work full time in a clerical position earning only $10.50 / hour. My alimony ends in 3013 and I need to be able to support myself.
I find that hard to believe. That grad school is the only way that you could possibly earn more than $10.50 an hour. Now if your heart is calling for you to pursue a grad school degree, far be it for me to argue. I just think it is better to make a serious financial decision knowing it is what you want out of life rather than thinking it's forced by economics. Because there are LOTS of economic choices out there, many of which pay more than that, and many of which don't require grad school.
Plan A: Master's in counseling. Takes 3 years, 2 evenings a week taking 2 classes at a time. The classes are semester long. I'll be going to school a year longer than my alimony lasts. The program is in the town I live in.
Plan B: Master's in gerontology. Takes [B]2[B] years, 1 evening a week. The classes run one at a time for 6 weeks each. The program is about 1 hour 45 minute drive from me. I'd most likely have to cut down to 4 days a week because I wouldn't get home until 11:30ish and I start work at 6am. I'm tired now and I think that drive would just wear on me that I'd need the next day to recover.
The way I see it: pluses of plan B are done sooner and only going 1 evening a week. Plus it is what you would prefer to do and that is a HUGE plus in my opinion. In fact it's the trump card that wins the game in my opinion (as long as it is marketable of course!).
Now what I see as a disadvantage of plan B is that classes are only 6 weeks at a time ("is this a reputable school?" I have to wonder .....). And I personally don't prefer accelerated classes. I don't think people really learn as well that way, but that could just be me that doesn't learn as well that way :).
I think I might have a better chance of getting a job.
You really should do some research on job prospects and job prospects locally (IF you plan to stay where you are) for both options. I know, I know, who the heck wants to do research, to pit our dreams against the cold hard facts of economic reality. But of course, it is better to do research than end up thousands of dollars in debt for a degree one can't pay back that debt with.
fidgiegirl
5-28-11, 8:56pm
B all the way. Grad school can be exhausting on top of working, but if you concentrate on the one course at a time, even with the drive, it seems manageable especially with the 2 year timeframe. Plus you said it is what interests you more and as others have pointed out, will likely be what would offer you more jobs later on.
Good luck!
ApatheticNoMore
5-28-11, 9:13pm
If it were me and I wanted to get into a totally new career, assuming that you don't work in either field, I would volunteer at one of your prospective career decisions. That way you might be better able to make a decision on your career goals.
IMHO, a career is more about exposure to different things and sometimes things and jobs are not what they seem.
+ 100 - volunteer in related things if you can
I would deal with your money issues before I did something as dramatic as a career change. I have often wondered about debt for education.
Peace
Sometimes education debt is worth it, but people do need to go into it with their eyes wide open. Know the job prospects, the probability of the debt being paid off, how paying off that debt for years and years with your new job will affect your lifestyle, your ability to achieve other goals (maybe saving for retirement is a goal?) etc.
ApatheticNoMore
5-28-11, 9:31pm
There is no way I'd go into debt for a counseling degree. But we've had this discussion before. Here, everyone and his brother is getting that degree.
There seem from what I see and hear to be a LOT of overcrowded fields though. It's the NEW NORMAL: ALL fields are overcrowded ALL the time :laff:. Ok maybe not quite that bad but certainly lots of people competing in fields without a lot of jobs.
I agree with IL about not going into debt for a master's in counselling. These statistics are for those graduating with BAs, but I believe the trends in salary carry over pretty consistently for those with graduate degrees as well. Note that Psychology and Social Work are at the ABSOLUTE BOTTOM of the scale, while Health is pretty far up.
http://chronicle.com/article/Median-...or-and/127604/
Actually in many of those fields those salaries are HIGHER than most people I actually KNOW with graduate degrees make. :\ Yea, I'm saying some of that stuff seems overly optimistic. (ETA: I see why, this is people up to 65 or so, who may have gotten into fields when just a bachelors degree in something was actually worth something)
In our neck of the woods, grads with a Masters in counselling and social work are filling starting positions earning little above minimum wage. Very poor future as well.
Look around at other options before making the leap into grad school programs with no future.
Choose what you like; you'll enjoy the work more. I loved grad school, despite the debt. It was more than job training, it was a time to dive back into learning and ideas, experience a community of inquirers, and appreciate being mid career and choosing exactly what I wanted.
DD received her masters in social work a few years ago and has no regrets, but only because she combined it with business management courses. She is still at the first job out of the chute working at a local nonprofit dealing with child abuse issues and has already climbed the ladder to a management position. Because she was eager to learn, they are cross-training her in every aspect - operations, financial and fundraising so she gets lots of different experience. She decided early on that the admin side of a nonprofit would be the better career decision especially considering the high burnout rate for those dealing directly with clients. The pay has been much better too...in fact, she just bought her first house at 28.
If you enjoy working with the elderly, what about a two year RN degree? Nurses are usually in high demand and the pay is not bad.
If you are considering grad school you must have some sort of degree now. What is your current degree in? Why do you only make $10.50 an hour?
You also mention you are interested in being a church secretary as a second job. If you are interested in that sort of thing, do you even NEED grad school?
http://www.selloutyoursoul.com/2010/12/03/how-to-find-careers-with-an-english-degree-change-your-thinking/
interesting perspective on the marketing of degrees to people who love to learn .... and how those who do the marketing are not all that concerned about whether said degree will actually be useful for the student later on.
ApatheticNoMore
5-30-11, 5:48pm
My position on this for myself is: only go to state schools where you can afford to go without debt. They may be far less than the best schools out there, they may not be the quickest path to graduation, they ARE affordable. If I got some super high paying job and was able to pay private school tuition this way (no debt) though, I'd consider it.
These same thoughts have been on my mind, as my dad has wanted me to go for a PhD for a long time. I stayed home with my kids for ten years, then got my 4 year nursing degree, worked for another 10 years in various nursing fields, and then got my MBA in the evenings over a 4 year period of time. I'm almost 50. The research I did showed me that I would pay tens of thousands to get the PhD (actually my dad would pay, as he has offered ...), I would halt my career just as it's getting to a place of great income, cutting off my possibilities for future advancement with my current degree, and give up about 4 years of income to get the PhD. The most surprising part of my research was that I would then take a 30-50% pay cut as a new PhD in the areas that interest me.
It just isn't worth it. lots of work, giving up income and retirement and benefits, and then only having about 10 years left to work in the new area. I'm best off just enjoying my last 15-20 years in my current field.
Anyway, that's the story behind finding the link I put up in the prior post. I will say that a lot of this is dependent upon which area a person studies in a PhD, but starting salaries for professors are about 60,000, and often lower at 40,000 if you don't get the full professorship or whatever. And most PhDs go into education - not so many work in the private sector. I'm already more educated that some of my bosses, so there you go ....
ApatheticNoMore
6-14-11, 4:14pm
I've been in a bad mood lately thinking about all this and trying to run the numbers.
The advance degree seems dubious if done purely for economic reasons. However if you really want into a certain field and can manage to pay off the loans you take, it may be worth it.
I'm really into minimalism and have been thinking how great it would be to pay off almost all my cc's, save some cash and live as a sort of nomad for a while. I'd love to just get in my car, drive until I find a town get a regular job, work and live until I get sick of it and move on!
I see no reason this can't work. Sure it might be a bit easier with some job skills than others, but given any reasonably marketable job skills AT ALL, I can see it working. Just avoid towns with really high unemployment :). And keep a cushion for those time between jobs perhaps. And sure you'll incur some moving expenses occasionally I suppose (less with minimalism perhaps). But *every* lifestyle has some minor expenses that come with it.
In your place I would go for a technical certification in something for which there is genuine demand. There are many medically related fields that are in genuine demand. In this economy I wouldn't take on debt for a masters without concrete proof that there are real jobs available and that a masters would make me eligible for them, without experience.
ApatheticNoMore
6-15-11, 3:56am
I'm just soooo sick of the normal life where everyone seems so miserable all the time. They spin their wheels at "good" jobs, accumulate more stuff and spend their weekends either taking care of it all or at some other socially acceptable, obligatory event. I realize I'm in a bad mood, so perhaps that sounds worse than I mean it......sorry.:-)
Yea, the level of fear that holds people to good jobs (all the while continually telling themselves "I have a good job" no matter how bad conditions get at work) is ridiculous. But then I've really thought about it and decided poverty in America is a horrible thing and I don't want that either. Ok, there may be places you can live in the U.S. where poverty isn't horrible, but I mostly think about what goes along with it:
no health insurance of course
dangerous neighborhoods
even if you can escape that bad living conditions (ok I've lived in one horrible crumbling termite eating, ****roach infested, roof leaking, mold smelling apartment in my life, I know I want better)
a diet of carbs, processed corn, and chemicals (nothing resembling REAL FOOD). I'm also rather spoiled about food but I LOVE buying things like raspberries when they are season (those things are NEVER cheap)
often horrible treatment (mostly at work but sometimes elsewhere) just because you are considered the very bottom
etc..
Ok, darn I realize I'm working on my mentality here, on certain middle class expectations. But it's hard not to be bourgeoisie, I like money :). But I hate what I do for it. Hmm ...... a problem.
But yea if the state of your finances is your main concern, and it kind of seems like it is, a grad degree seems like the wrong way to go about fixing it. But yea, like I said, grad degrees have other uses, they are required to get into certain fields for one. As for finances: maybe you're just underpaid and just need to look for a new job? (it never hurts)
jennipurrr
6-15-11, 10:25am
I have a Masters in Counseling. I started it mainly because I was burnt out on IT at the time and needed something completely different. I finished last year. I loooved the coursework, but my employer was picking up the tab, so the financial aspects of it really never weighed heavy on me. What do you want to do with your Counseling degree? If you want to do private practice, in my state that is another 2 more years of hoops to jump through after the degree, depending on where you work, paying for supervision. If you are still thinking about the counseling thing, I would definitely consider a degree in Social Work instead...the field is much more organized and accepted by entities like the federal govt and insurance. Most people I know in counseling started out at about $25,000/yr and work 60-80 hours a week slogging away at some horrendously run community mental health agency. The burnout rate is ridiculous. I seriously went into the whole field fairly naive about what the prospects were.
I totally get the restlessness though, whoever was talking about that. I have applied to a PhD program for the fall. Its just sort of this nebulous feeling of wanting to do something different, something more, etc. I don't know...I tried to get into clipping coupons and it just seemed like such a waste of brain power, so that is actually how I ended up where I am at right now. Not exactly what I wrote on the statement of purpose, haha.
rodeosweetheart
6-16-11, 4:54pm
If I had your interests, I would find a job working for the state in some capacity working with older folks-- advocacy, something like that. Then get state to pay for an MSW, a much more useful degree than an MA in Counseling. I know this because I have an MA in counseling! My supervisor at my internship had an MA in counseling and was going back, with 5 kids and at the age of 53, for an MSW so he would have better job prospects.
Personally, I think getting an MSW with gerontology focus could be extemely lucrative in the next 20 years, as so many people my age (55) are struggling to figure out how to cope with their aging parents. If I had such, I would set up a practice doing this. (It's not my major interest, though, but it migt work for you.)
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!:)
Gardenarian
7-28-11, 5:04pm
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. -- Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear.
(From Dune by Frank Herbert)
Could you possibly look for work and move to the town where the gerontology program is based?
I agree with IL about not going into debt for a master's in counselling. These statistics are for those graduating with BAs, but I believe the trends in salary carry over pretty consistently for those with graduate degrees as well. Note that Psychology and Social Work are at the ABSOLUTE BOTTOM of the scale, while Health is pretty far up.
http://chronicle.com/article/Median-Earnings-by-Major-and/127604/
My advice would be don't set yourself up for years of paying off student loans on a low salary.
lhamo
I also agree with IL and Ihamo on this - don't go into debt for a counseling degree - or anything in Social Science. I personally wouldn't go into debt for any type of degree - especially if I was older (what is your age anyways - makes a difference IMHO?). Maybe you should consider getting a certification in some professional field from a community college - lots in the healthcare field as well as other fields. Less expensive, less time consuming, and more job opportunities IMHO. Also most universities have certificate programs in a large variety of fields.
example:
"Academic Certificate in Gerontology (PDF)
The academic certificate in gerontology may be earned in conjunction with any academic major or by individuals not seeking a degree but whose professional responsibilities relate to older adults. The program offers a wide variety of courses from more than 10 different academic departments ranging from biology to theater. With an emphasis on both classroom study and practical field experience, the program provides students with the knowledge and skills needed to better understand and work with a variety of older adult populations."
I am still mulling all this over! I'm writing this as much for myself as for anyone to read, but always appreciate comments / suggestions / ideas, etc....
I've been in a bad mood lately thinking about all this and trying to run the numbers. I'm really into minimalism and have been thinking how great it would be to pay off almost all my cc's, save some cash and live as a sort of nomad for a while. I'd love to just get in my car, drive until I find a town get a regular job, work and live until I get sick of it and move on!:D
www.coolworks.com Why limit yourself to just where your car can take you! I'm all about taking the road less traveled myself even if it means leaving behind the safe and narrow way (probably especially if it means leaving behind the safe and narrow way :-)!!).So I would encourage you to do what you want rather than do what you think you should - what society tells you you should do. You only live once!
I think someone here recommended taking on a second job, maybe 2 evenings a week to help pay down debt sooner and then maybe take on grad school after that(in 2 years). I'm getting so much older (lol!) and just hate to keep putting it off.
And depending on your living situation you may want to consider getting a roommate (or 2) or renting a room yourself. That is one of the fastest ways to get out of debt and it doesn't have to be forever. Also consider moving to a less expensive area if that's possible. You said you couldn't move out of your area until 2013 (why?) but if you are unencumbered (i.e. no kids or spouse or elderly parents to care for) then you can go anywhere.
Not going to grad school......at least not right now.
If I can get a student loan, I'm going to take a one year certificate program in health unit coordinator online offered by a community college about an hour away. The program is all online except the practical / internship part. There are jobs literally all over the country. The pay isn't necessarily good, but not too bad either. I think my BA degree will help me get a position, too. If I can find a place where there is tuition assistance then *maybe* I'll pursue something later.
If I can't get a loan, I'll just buff up on my computer skills through out community education program and attempt to find a step up job in another year.
Oops! Guess I should have read all the posts before I responded above. I think this is a great idea. Much better than grad school IMHO - especially since you said you are age 50 plus. You would be deep in debt for a big part of you rolder years and with few jobs out there for anyone, let alone people over 50, I think you'd regret it - at least from a financial point.
iris lily
7-28-11, 11:11pm
harmony, I think that's an interesting choice, and a reasonable one.I had to look up what a health care unit coordinator is, but I see that takes advantage of your current skills and that's great. Maybe you can get a job in a gerontology health care place and work your way up into something. Good luck!
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