View Full Version : Is climate change something you care about?
Is climate change something you care about? Why? Why not?
If you do care, have you made any changes (small or large) to your lifestyle?
These changes could be to slow down climate change or to prepare for the eventualities?
Just curious. I watched a Trevor Noah bit on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqgbQVTW0Ho
ApatheticNoMore
9-1-19, 10:46am
Yes greatly, discussions of this in this society (this social climate haha) tend to turn into ridiculous purity tests though: "you don't do this, and you do that", and finger wave, for what are ultimately, and they ARE ultimately *systematic problems*. Am I involved politically in the issue? Yes. To a degree that makes a difference? I really doubt it. Am I an informed citizen on the topic and locally as well, not just about the national (and global with Brazil) horror show? Yes I know what is going on locally in terms of legislation with major climate impact etc.. And I mean I'm sure I make lots of tweaks to my lifestyle, that don't make that much difference really, and I still drive if you want it to be all about that.
Ultralight
9-1-19, 10:54am
It is a difficult issue. And quite frankly I think that only a tiny percentage of people care. And only an infinitesimal number of people live in sustainable way.
I've found that my version of simple living and having a low carbon footprint are very compatible. "Sustainable" can either be relative or absolute. I agree that most people are not willing to make big lifestyle changes to reduce their carbon footprint, but more think it's the responsibility of the government to do everything.
Ultralight
9-1-19, 11:09am
What I would find interesting would be some kind of projections about climate change and its effect on human civilizations that is then instructive about survival strategies.
Like: "If you live on a tiny island in the Pacific you should move to Wyoming," but with details and scenarios for various other geographic regions.
ApatheticNoMore
9-1-19, 11:25am
And quite frankly I think that only a tiny percentage of people care. And only an infinitesimal number of people live in sustainable way.
true about sustainable. I think people don't know how to deal with it, how to process it. Well climate activists have chosen their stance (go down fighting, rage against the dying of the light no matter), so have utterly resigned people (await near term human extinction - believe me I personally know people like this awaiting extinction in a few years - they could be right or wrong), but most people .... In the car with coworkers, NPR was on (not me driving, I don't even like NRP much), news of the world, subject was climate change, and people didn't know what to say to such a degree they were talking "how about that stock market etc." I mean I think most people on some level don't know how to process ...
What I would find interesting would be some kind of projections about climate change and its effect on human civilizations that is then instructive about survival strategies.
I don't think it's that important that any particular individual survive really. I think there is a moral obligation to those most affected (really poor countries usually), and younger generations (really it makes sense to question the wisdom of having kids at this point, but people will anyway) to do what one can to hope that something survives (and maybe even someone), and to push for the best triage strategies one can (ie the best chance of helping as many people as possible, doing whatever mitigation is possible, relieve suffering).
I’m not concerned. But I do probably keep my carbon footprint below the Obamas, Gore, and those Hollywood elites that jet to their fancy conferences.
I care a lot. I recognize that whatever changes I make are a mere drop in the ocean. But I still try. And I fear for my grandchildren’s futures on this planet.
The two us (adults, married) share one car
Our one car is hybrid and 95% of our use is electric not gas
We have two high quality bikes
Our house has solar panels so often we are charging our car on sunshine
We live 5 miles from my job
He is recently retired - but we live 1.5 miles from his prior job and he rode his bike to work
We try to buy things with little packaging
We try to buy less stuff overall
We buy high quality clothing that we use a long time
We reuse lots of things and repurpose things and repair our stuff
We don’t use paper plates except for huge parties that happen about once a year - then it’s paper products instead of plastic for 80% of the disposables
We live in an 810 square foot house
We eat some meat but not daily
We use the light rail
We have mostly desert landscaping but we do water a few fruit trees out back
No lawn
Cloth bags
Wash and reuse ziplock bags
Eat most of our leftovers instead of discarding
Compost in our backyard
But then we fly somewhere once a year and that’s not a good choice environmentally.
It still feels like a losing battle.
It is a difficult issue. And quite frankly I think that only a tiny percentage of people care. And only an infinitesimal number of people live in sustainable way.
It is very difficult in current American society for an American to live sustainably, even with the best of intentions and access to significant capital.
I try with such things are are within my control, but I exist embedded in a matrix where most any simple thing has wide-reaching effects, and alternatives to those things are non-existent or radically impractical.
For instance, I had only one child, I drive < 3000 miles a year usually, I bicycle nearly everywhere now, I buy most of my food from producers within easy cycling distance, I produce about as much solar power as my house consumes, etc. etc.
But I also Amazon Prime things, rather than waiting several weeks and doing a supply run to the mainland. And my one daughter goes to school in the UK, so there's the matter of air travel. And I'm typing this on a laptop that presumably is horrid environmentally. And I'm pretty sure those solar panels in my large array probably left pools of toxic material in some far-off land, but even determining that fact is tricky.
While I do care, there's not much I as an individual can directly do. And I live on an island in the Pacific, so sea level is a thing we all here are concerned about.
The latest season of "The Good Place" had as a plot tidbit that the good/bad scoring system used to determine if souls go to The Good Place or The Bad Place had broken down, because of the unintended bad consequences that occur in today's complex society by even the most noble-looking act. And so everyone was going to The Bad Place.
I care very much about climate change and what destruction is going on with our sweet Mother Earth.
I've made many changes, considering the limitations of where we live. (a car dependent state, with urban sprawl and no sustainable communities.)
*I've used cloth bags for 35 years already. Had to fight back then and some stores refused and stuffed purchases into plastic bags anyway.
*We do have 2 vehicles but drive less than 15k combined. That includes our many drives to the mountain cabin!
*I grow and preserve as much of our food as I can on our city lot. I'll be spending time this winter studying more condensed growing methods now that i'm retired and will have more time to tend the gardens.
* Our homes are both small-we don't rip out and replace stuff unless trashed (our carpet is about 3y overdue but I can't decide what I want). cabinets/counters are solid and forever.
*We had the energy audit offered by the power company many years ago. We completed all of their requests to tighten up.
*Gardens are drip irrigation. Our water bill is still lower than in 1995 when i started ripping out grass and growing food/perennials.
*On the rare occasion we need a new item, I go to the thrift store first.
* Now that I'm retired, I attempt no more than 2d/week getting in my car. If there is a single stop errand, I ask hubby to do it on his way home from work.
*We use up and wear out what we have. Replace only if there is no alternative remaining in our possession.
*We recycle everything possible and we did long before curbside pickup. Better yet, we precycle as much as possible.
I'm sure there is more.....as opportunity has arisen over the decades, changes become normal rather than unusual.
Teacher Terry
9-1-19, 5:55pm
I definitely care. We recycle, replaced all the carpet with pergo as it lasts much longer, have Astro-turf, plants on irrigation, etc.
I do care, not necessarily about "climate change"--but about all the changes occurring because of the many ways in which our planet is increasingly unsustainable, thanks to us. I am sad that so many species are extinct; I'm sad that the Great Coral Reef is dead; I'm sad that plastics and chemicals are making it impossible for anyone to be able to use most of the water on the planet (I believe 2% of all the water on the planet is potable). I decry the lack of reverence for nature in general, and I see where that's going--to a total decimation of our natural resources.
I agree with Daniel Quinn (Ishmael) in that in nature there are Leavers and Takers, and we are all Takers. I agree with Derrick Jensen that civilization has pretty much doomed us. I also believe that "just taking shorter showers" is not the answer.
In terms of my own efforts at sustainability, I have a long way to go, but I have downsized to <700 square feet. I grow backyard food; I drive a hybrid car; I live in a caring community that is open to sharing.
I need to: invest in renewables like solar, fly less, waste less. I need to be more of an activist for change.
I believe that focusing on "climate change" misses the point of the wholesale destruction happening while we acidify the ocean, pollute the air, poison our pollinators. We need to see nature as sacred rather than a commodity or a resource.
As the late Stephen Covey would say, our ladder is leaning against the wrong wall. We think we want something, but that something is enabling the destruction of the life that sustains us.
I do care, not necessarily about "climate change"--but about all the changes occurring because of the many ways in which our planet is increasingly unsustainable, thanks to us. I am sad that so many species are extinct; I'm sad that the Great Coral Reef is dead; I'm sad that plastics and chemicals are making it impossible for anyone to be able to use most of the water on the planet (I believe 2% of all the water on the planet is potable). I decry the lack of reverence for nature in general, and I see where that's going--to a total decimation of our natural resources.
I agree with Daniel Quinn (Ishmael) in that in nature there are Leavers and Takers, and we are all Takers. I agree with Derrick Jensen that civilization has pretty much doomed us. I also believe that "just taking shorter showers" is not the answer.
In terms of my own efforts at sustainability, I have a long way to go, but I have downsized to <700 square feet. I grow backyard food; I drive a hybrid car; I live in a caring community that is open to sharing.
I need to: invest in renewables like solar, fly less, waste less. I need to be more of an activist for change.
I believe that focusing on "climate change" misses the point of the wholesale destruction happening while we acidify the ocean, pollute the air, poison our pollinators. We need to see nature as sacred rather than a commodity or a resource.
As the late Stephen Covey would say, our ladder is leaning against the wrong wall. We think we want something, but that something is enabling the destruction of the life that sustains us.
That pretty much covers my views so thank you for that, Cath.
That pretty much covers my views so thank you for that, Cath.
Yes, nicely said.
Yes, I care immensely. Today I bought a $400 tree (ouch!!) to be planted next week in the place of a giant spruce that fell. I won't be here to see it get big but I like to think that planting trees helps. I happen to believe that if humans disappeared earth would heal itself quite nicely.
Yes, I care immensely. Today I bought a $400 tree (ouch!!) to be planted next week in the place of a giant spruce that fell. I won't be here to see it get big but I like to think that planting trees helps. I happen to believe that if humans disappeared earth would heal itself quite nicely.
I couldn't agree more about the planet; maybe if we just made assault weapons more readily available, we could speed up the process. (But I have to say I'm rather overfond of the consumption infrastructure that got a new keyboard to me within 24 hours...)
ApatheticNoMore
9-2-19, 5:00pm
depends on if one's sees climate and the ability of the atmosphere and ocean etc. to absorb CO2 as the first and most complete hard limit we'll hit. And I don't know. Hard limit for what? Well for species already extinct not them, that's already passed. Maybe for billions of people, maybe for humanity, maybe for mammals, maybe for life on earth, I don't know. Seeing nature as a resource would actually be a step up, as we actually don't now, not comprehensively.
Ultralight
9-2-19, 10:04pm
What I wonder is, if through some creative lifestyle design, personal restraint, and a little luck, could the average American living in any region of the USA live a 90%+ sustainable life?
What I wonder is, if through some creative lifestyle design, personal restraint, and a little luck, could the average American living in any region of the USA live a 90%+ sustainable life?
I think that would require a significant effort, given the current infrastructure and supply chains that exist in the USA, and how thoroughly the sustainable ones have been stomped out.
Last week our Chief Environmental Scientist Prof. Sir Ian Boyd said that the technofix promised by our government would not be enough. The news was not carried in the main press as far as I could see. Maybe they put it on the obituary page.
In spite of the dire warnings that managed to survive the Brexit soap opera, I see people carry on in exactly the same carefree way, but hitting people too often with an unwelcome message may be counter productive. Our Green Party still gets just 1% of the vote.
I used to be an activist, and recently I wrote to those in power with my concerns. That will do for me.
What the world needs least is another angry person demanding action right now. Keeping things modest could be best. Living simply is enough for one person if a few people can see that it is perfectly ok, and even life enhancing.
I think the world is in deep trouble, but perhaps the only way out is through.
I care very much about climate change and what destruction is going on with our sweet Mother Earth.
I've made many changes, considering the limitations of where we live. (a car dependent state, with urban sprawl and no sustainable communities.)
*I've used cloth bags for 35 years already. Had to fight back then and some stores refused and stuffed purchases into plastic bags anyway.l.
I had the same experience with my bags too. Or time's I rode my bike to the store and put groceries in my backpack.
Climate is a huge topic in buddhism right now, has been for awhile. I went on retreat to an eco dharma center. There was a lot of intention around how we did things like waste and water consciousness. One of the teachers, David Loy, writes about eco dharma (dharma is buddhist teachings). I am also in a situation where it is hard to do everything I want.
ToomuchStuff
9-3-19, 12:43pm
I am sort of a meh person.
Does climate change affect us, yes. Are we the root or only cause, I doubt it, (things are theories until proven) but we are a factor. Will one person make a difference, not unless that person can scientifically prove what could be done and that it will work.
The stuff always says, save the planet, but the planet will be fine until something (sun explodes, other body) slams into it. What won't be is several species, or they will be reduced in numbers, to a sustainable level, to start the process over again.
(things are theories until proven)
That's not how it works.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/
ToomuchStuff
9-3-19, 4:06pm
That's not how it works.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2017/11/22/scientific-proof-is-a-myth/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVfhztmK9zI
That was always how I was taught. It is a working theory, until such time as we can get to a point to prove something, may be LONG after we are dead.
That was always how I was taught. It is a working theory, until such time as we can get to a point to prove something, may be LONG after we are dead.
My point was, you don't "prove" scientific theories. That very concept is an inversion of how science works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory
Unfortunately, this confusion between the scientific and vernacular use of the word "theory" and the connotations connected with each approach, cause confusion in discussions over policy.
I blame poor schooling in America.
ToomuchStuff
9-3-19, 4:37pm
Unfortunately, this confusion between the scientific and vernacular use of the word "theory" and the connotations connected with each approach, cause confusion in discussions over policy.
I blame poor schooling in America.
How about language itself. Legalese verses regular language, or other examples of things that while named the same mean different things. (list the primary colors, then you need to know if your talking about paint, or if light is the spectrum)
How about language itself.
Since we were discussing "climate change", I presumed we were discussing things in the realm of science, with proper terminology, and not just hand-waving.
ToomuchStuff
9-3-19, 5:24pm
There is your dilemma, assuming all things are equal (including education). Things like chemistry classes without chemistry, teachers that made Stephen Wright comedy routine seem like dynamic in range, and classes with students that had put you at gun/knifepoint.
I am much better with language, because books were an escape.
Maybe when I retire, I will have time to go back to college. (only got through one semester, working full time, school and a hospice situation at the same time)
I’ve been traveling less and consuming less and even turning lights out earlier. I call my strategy “aging”.
For the country as a whole, I see us eventually moving to a renewable/nuclear mix. No need for legions of commissars enforcing a million new regulations.
I think there are two accepted definitions of theory. One is the common use, where theory and conjecture are similar. But scientific theory is not the same and involves the scientific method to go through hypothesis, testing, and data analysis, which then makes a scientific theory. It doesn't take an especially high level of book learning to understand how climate scientists have developed the scientific theory of climate change and at least at my level of understanding is not much different than the same process that has resulted in the "scientific theory" of gravity. It is well beyond common conjecture. For example, https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2743/the-scientific-method-and-climate-change-how-scientists-know/. There are plenty of other short articles one can google up on the topic fairly easily that are not difficult reading. My take anyway.
The example of the moon test of gravity is simply the testing of hypothesis to gather data. Because it agrees with many other tests of the hypothesis is provides further data to validate the scientific theory. (Can we prove beyond reasonable doubt that man actually went to the moon? Some think not).
(Can we prove beyond reasonable doubt that man actually went to the moon? Some think not).
Well, those folks are just plain silly.
I had dinner just two weeks ago with a man who was there.
I've also shot a laser at a hand-placed target that is sitting on the surface of the moon, to measure the earth-moon distance.
I mean, there are those who say the Holocaust didn't happen too, but they are silly, or evil, folks.
Well, those folks are just plain silly....
I know. If it wasn't plain, I was using the example that no matter how much evidence exists, it will never be enough for some and there will always be deniers.
Heck, the Flat Earthers even have a yearly convention!
I've also shot a laser at a hand-placed target that is sitting on the surface of the moon, to measure the earth-moon distance.
Are you Sheldon or Leonard?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e5CtbbZL-k
Are you Sheldon or Leonard?
Alas not.
The flat earthers are even collecting data.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwku5Alsi04
I have met a couple of people who have absolutely fixed ideas.
It's an identity thing.. If only people would chill out a bit., . I like the Zen instruction : Don't just do something, sit there.
An amazing explanation of rigid thinking can be found on U tube by Googling The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist. Hope you can get this in the U. S. The book was a two reads effort for me, but worth the time. He has some interesting observations about Eastern modes of thought.
BikingLady
2-16-21, 9:56am
Late posting here. I care. I am reaching 60 years soon. I used to be a change the world, you bet I can! I have reached the point of I can only change my little dot I live on. My biking and walking and Hybrid car and recycling can not compete with the waste that goes on with large companies or other people. It can only make me feel like I am doing something.
I have a great interest in nature. Our cattails are disappearing at a fast rate, an invasive grass is replacing them. Oh how pretty those look to many. I see sadness as my beloved red wing blackbirds are disappearing due to nesting space gone in cattails. I have no snakes at my home I moved too, toads are zero, monarchs were gone last year. So I have planted a large patch of milkweed seeds so maybe they will visit. I have ready broken flower pots to set in the gardens for maybe snakes and toads. I have assorted bird boxes ready to hang when the weather breaks for the screech owls, wrens, bluebirds. Small things but I will feel better.
happystuff
2-16-21, 10:13am
Late posting here. I care. I am reaching 60 years soon. I used to be a change the world, you bet I can! I have reached the point of I can only change my little dot I live on. My biking and walking and Hybrid car and recycling can not compete with the waste that goes on with large companies or other people. It can only make me feel like I am doing something.
I have a great interest in nature. Our cattails are disappearing at a fast rate, an invasive grass is replacing them. Oh how pretty those look to many. I see sadness as my beloved red wing blackbirds are disappearing due to nesting space gone in cattails. I have no snakes at my home I moved too, toads are zero, monarchs were gone last year. So I have planted a large patch of milkweed seeds so maybe they will visit. I have ready broken flower pots to set in the gardens for maybe snakes and toads. I have assorted bird boxes ready to hang when the weather breaks for the screech owls, wrens, bluebirds. Small things but I will feel better.
Those are wonderful "small" things to be doing! I like to think that my small things and your small things and the small things from - hopefully - many more people, are really making a difference. Small things add up!
Teacher Terry
2-16-21, 10:41am
I am wondering if my condo building will have recycling. In the old days I kept a bin in my guest bedroom and drove it to a recycling place. Those drop off centers no longer exist because people have their recycling picked up at their homes.
ApatheticNoMore
2-16-21, 11:05am
I hate recycling so much. But it goes back to the small things, you can completely burn yourself out on small things. When even from a personal perspective a few things have the biggest impact: having less kids (I don't have kids), flying less (it's been over a decade since I flew - some people seem to have the impression this is because I can't afford to fly - LOL that's not true), living without a car (ok I regard this as completely impractical but good if it works for someone), what kind of car you drive if you do have one, plant based diet (I'm an omnivore). Recycling (if it does any good at all) is way below all that.
Education and government recommendations miss the most effective individual actions:
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/aa7541
But yea I hate recycling with a burning passion. No options are provided for renters to recycle, there are no recycling places, no recycling bins. Literally the only option is to find a HOMEOWNER that will take your recycling.
But if one actually enjoys the little things that's another matter. And species preservation (by planting native plants etc.) has some value independent of the climate change issue.
iris lilies
2-16-21, 11:19am
In my city house we have giant recycling cans in the alley. At my condo we have one giant can designated for recycling.
In Hermann, we have the option of driving our recyclables to the town’s recycling center, about a 5 minute drive.
Good options all around.
catherine
2-16-21, 11:31am
I have a great interest in nature. Our cattails are disappearing at a fast rate, an invasive grass is replacing them. Oh how pretty those look to many. I see sadness as my beloved red wing blackbirds are disappearing due to nesting space gone in cattails. I have no snakes at my home I moved too, toads are zero, monarchs were gone last year. So I have planted a large patch of milkweed seeds so maybe they will visit. I have ready broken flower pots to set in the gardens for maybe snakes and toads. I have assorted bird boxes ready to hang when the weather breaks for the screech owls, wrens, bluebirds. Small things but I will feel better.
I wonder if climate change activists have their ladder against the wrong wall--or perhaps we need two ladders.
Bill McKibben built his activism on 350ppm in the atmosphere, but how relevant is that to people? It's a number--a theoretical number at which time what will happen?? Will we fall into some dystopia suddenly? Will the earth burn up? Will we be in survival mode? Maybe all those things are true, but how do you get buy-in from people who are facing "armageddon"on a daily basis in terms of just getting their basic needs? How do you get buy-in from people on the other end who would rather have status in the way of Prada bags and big kitchen islands--a desire which is more real to them than some number up in the clouds? And when I say "them" I mean me, too. When I shop at the supermarket, do I buy the $10/lb grassfed beef or the $4.99/lb regular 80/20? I'm trying to downsize my debt and get ready for retirement. So do I "vote with my dollar" or do I put $20 towards my debt? (Just for the record, I try to "vote with my dollar" but DH isn't always on board.)
In market research we always try to uncover the "higher order end benefit" of people. So why do you want Crest toothpaste? Because it's a whitening toothpaste. Why do you want a whitening toothpaste? Because my teeth are getting yellow. Why do you care that your teeth are getting yellow? Because I saw myself in a picture and I was surprised at how yellow they looked. Why does that matter to you? Because I'm embarrassed. Why are you embarrassed? Because all my friends will think I'm old and ugly. Why does that matter to you? Because I want my friends to like and respect me.
So you're not buying toothpaste: You're buying respect and social validation. All marketers know that.
Getting back to how that relates to the environment, the 350.org/climate change movement appeals to fear--people don't want to lose anything--their coastal homes, their food supply. But I think you've hit on another thing, BikingLady: the loss of the natural world, the beauty of it, the diversity of it, the wonder of the balance of nature is something that many cherish and strive to protect, but others are more removed from it.
In answer to your question: I care more about the loss of diversity the way you beautifully described it than this weird number we better not exceed or we're screwed. Both two sides to the same coin.
I'm reading that same book about forest bathing that dado potato recommended, and it's amazing the health benefits that are derived in nature. But those benefits are lost on the people who are in the urban jungles all over the world. People have been flocking to the cities (at least until COVID) and they lose touch with nature. They get entangled in culture and fashion and the latest and greatest gadgets and people to impress, etc.
I couldn't find snowshoe poles in the local sports stores. They were all out of them. I'm thinking that maybe one good thing about COVID is people who are itching to do SOMETHING but can't go to movies, or out to dinner, or to the arcade or slot machines, or shopping till they drop will rediscover the joy of nature. This is a teachable moment--if we can remind them that invasive are dismantling our ecosystem, and plastic has turned the ocean into a killing field, and once the bees are gone, how much food will be available to them, maybe things will change.
What "higher order end benefit" will reconnect us to nature?
Well spoken from both of you. If people who care feel overwhelmed with the size of the problem, they feel paralyzed and helpless so apathy sets in.
I wonder how well this effort will succeed. I am all for recyclables and this effort includes corporations. Until corporations and their shareholders become part of the solution, it will be a slow process. Financial institutions reward their leaders based on shareholder returns as do many other corporations.
I wonder how well this effort will succeed. I am all for recyclables and this effort includes corporations. Until corporations and their shareholders become part of the solution, it will be a slow process. Financial institutions reward their leaders based on shareholder returns as do many other corporations.
I like the approach laid out by Ray Anderson of Interface:
Mid-Course Correction: Toward a Sustainable Enterprise: The Interface Model (1998)
Confessions of a Radical Industrialist: Profits, People, Purpose: Doing Business by Respecting the Earth (2009)
I tried to implement some of these ideas in Silicon Valley, but it was a hard sell with the customers, even with a noticeable savings in cost and bother for them.
I like the approach laid out by Ray Anderson of Interface:
later
Mid-Course Correction: Toward a Sustainable Enterprise: The Interface Model (1998)
Confessions of a Radical Industrialist: Profits, People, Purpose: Doing Business by Respecting the Earth (2009)
I tried to implement some of these ideas in Silicon Valley, but it was a hard sell with the customers, even with a noticeable savings in cost and bother for them.
That sounds like a winner approach all round for our world. Sadly, from one of the reviews in 2014, it appears that Ray C. Anderson passed away a few years after publishing this 2009 book.
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