Suicide Rates Up in Rural America

[dado potato]

Suicide rates in the US among residents aged 25 to 64 increased from 1999 to 2016, with the greatest increases in rural counties, particularly in western states, Appalachia and the Ozarks. Increased suicide rates were associated with deprivation (local economies dependent on agriculture and extractive industries), density of gun shops, inadequate health insurance.

77% of the decedents were male. The suicide rate was higher among veterans.

Source: "Contextual Factors Associated with County-level Suicide Rates in the United States, 1999 to 2016", JAMA

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2749451

[Tybee]

"Increased suicide rates were associated with deprivation (local economies dependent on agriculture and extractive industries), density of gun shops, inadequate health insurance."

Not surprising. We Boomers will see much higher suicide rates in our lifetime among our cohort. It is the backup plan for so many people I have talked to.

[Yppej]

If you include addiction as a means of slow suicide the density of drug dealers is probably more significant than the density of gun shops. But this is JAMA and given doctors' complicity in the opioid epidemic they probably don't want to go there. I heard another report recently that availability of gun shops did NOT increase suicide rates in rural areas where most people already own firearms but did in other areas.

[Ultralight]

My body, my choice.

[ApatheticNoMore]

One has a right to commit suicide, unequivocally, but it doesn't mean it's ok if social conditions are DRIVING people to suicide. It was only one's choice in circumstances that were made impossible to live in in that case, and it doesn't have to be this way.


Not surprising. We Boomers will see much higher suicide rates in our lifetime among our cohort. It is the backup plan for so many people I have talked to.

I think about it as my backup plan re climate change, fatal illness also makes sense. Until then I'm staying around, although the thoughts have surfaced with unemployment that lasted too long.

[ToomuchStuff]

If you include addiction as a means of slow suicide the density of drug dealers is probably more significant than the density of gun shops.

Wondering about their proof that proximity to gun shops has a correlation to suicides by hanging, pills, slashing wrists, etc.


One has a right to commit suicide,

I believe that is still being argued. I seem to remember we had a post where one state, still considered it a crime, where multiple states, consider attempting (not succeeding) a crime. That doesn't cover of course, assisted. If you ever have someone ask you to kill them, or watch as someone close, becomes trapped in their body (can't speak, can't see, deaf, and brain being destroyed), there isn't really a right answer, in my mind.

[catherine]

I do think the difficulties small farmers are having is driving some of the suicide rate in rural America. My DH was talking about all the dairy farms having difficulty these days--people are not buying milk products.


I looked up suicide rates by state to see if it's true that my old state, New Jersey, has the lowest suicide rate in the country, and, yes, it does by a fairly significant margin. I wonder why? I've heard it hypothesized that it's because it has a large Catholic population, and suicide is considered a mortal sin; however, the state is quite diverse and getting more so, so not sure that argument holds, but it's logical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

I think suicide is tragic in most cases, and it's sad to see the rise in it.

[Sad Eyed Lady]

I do think the difficulties small farmers are having is driving some of the suicide rate in rural America. My DH was talking about all the dairy farms having difficulty these days--people are not buying milk products.


I looked up suicide rates by state to see if it's true that my old state, New Jersey, has the lowest suicide rate in the country, and, yes, it does by a fairly significant margin. I wonder why? I've heard it hypothesized that it's because it has a large Catholic population, and suicide is considered a mortal sin; however, the state is quite diverse and getting more so, so not sure that argument holds, but it's logical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_the_United_States

I think suicide is tragic in most cases, and it's sad to see the rise in it.

I took a look at the by state chart and found my state of Kentucky coming in at #20. Montana is ranked as the # 1 state for suicide - is there a reason for this I am overlooking? I think of Montana as being one of those big sky, uncrowded, fresh air kind of places, so just wondering what would be the reason for so many suicides. I assume that states with physician assisted death is not counted in these statistics, but I did find this comment: "Montana does not currently have a statute safeguarding physician-assisted death. In 2009, Montana’s Supreme Court ruled nothing in the state law prohibited a physician from honoring a terminally ill, mentally competent patient’s request by prescribing medication to hasten the patient’s death."

[Rogar]

I have a handful of friends who live in rural America and have done my stint living in a couple of towns less than 1,000 people. Some people have a natural fit for those sorts of places and find a community of like minded people, or enjoy the solitude. For others, especially those who don't quite fit in, there can be a sense of isolation, boredom, and lack of cultural and mental stimulation. Not that those things don't exist in cities, but there is more diversity in many ways and maybe a greater tolerance for different behaviors. Possibly that leads to drug use, but I have my doubts about the density of gun shops having anything to do with it.

[dado potato]

. Some people have a natural fit for those sorts of places and find a community of like minded people, or enjoy the solitude. For others, especially those who don't quite fit in, there can be a sense of isolation, boredom, and lack of cultural and mental stimulation.

As I recall, the JAMA article associated engagement in community with lesser increases in the suicide rates.

[Ultralight]

Could this just be a matter of the survival of the fittest?

A friend from back in my hometown simply cannot fit himself into the world today with its educational, interpersonal, values, and skills requirements.

So he chose to become a drunken, drug addicted, and destitute person barely living on the fringes of our society. He is, truly, killing himself in slow motion. He could hit fast forward at any moment.

He can't adapt to our era.

[Gardnr]

I think suicide is tragic in most cases, and it's sad to see the rise in it.

TRAGIC indeed. My brother killed himself at age 45. Married 24 years. 2 healthy boys age 12/14. Business doing well. No outward reason for it. Depression likely the cause as he had a 20y history of treatment.

TRAGIC indeed. He has 5 grandchildren who will never know him. 2 boys who didn't recover for nearly 15 years. He is missing out on so much joy. I'm so sad he couldn't find the joy in life to live it.

[Gardnr]

Assisted suicide: Dad was actively dying of his lung cancer when my brother killed himself (post above). When Dad realized he would essentially feel like he was drowning (his description), he said "maybe that idea isn't so awful afterall. This is going to be bad." He died 4 weeks later.

[catherine]

TRAGIC indeed. My brother killed himself at age 45. Married 24 years. 2 healthy boys age 12/14. Business doing well. No outward reason for it. Depression likely the cause as he had a 20y history of treatment.

TRAGIC indeed. He has 5 grandchildren who will never know him. 2 boys who didn't recover for nearly 15 years. He is missing out on so much joy. I'm so sad he couldn't find the joy in life to live it.

I am so very sorry for your loss, Gardnr. Yes, the survivors never recover, yet when I once (ignorantly) told a friend of mine that I thought people who commit suicide are selfish, I wasn't aware her brother had committed suicide, and she told me that when you're in that much pain, it's just impossible to think about other people. Her own daughter committed suicde a couple of years later at age 33.

I think of the history professor and campus director of AmeriCorps that inspired two of my sons to community service, as well as countless others. He wound up depressed in his early 50s and was put on an anti-depressant and one day, while his wife and two children were out looking at a prospective college, he drove to the GWB and jumped off.

I think of the 3 high school friends of my children who committed suicide before they even graduated high school. Never had a chance to see that there can be something on the other side of the pain.

I think of my DIL, who told her ex-husband of her plan to marry my DS, and he invited her to lunch the next day and when she arrived at his house, she found him with a plastic bag over his head fastened with duct tape. She was 28 years old at the time and has had to deal with the trauma of that discovery as well as grief and guilt.


So very tragic, and again, Gardnr, so sorry for your loss.

[Float On]

my oldest son attempted while in college in NM. I didn't know about it till 2 years later. He considered it again this summer and self harmed and I got him to the ER and he spent a week on a mental health wing. Every day he is disappointed to wake up and find himself alive. It's exhausting for him and for the rest of us. He has counseling 2x a week. Dr appointments weekly. Balancing the med dose and vit D and sleep aid is a struggle. It's apparently going to be a life-long struggle. I just try to show him daily life is worth living.

[iris lilies]

These stories are so sad. It is tragic that not everyone can appreciate being alive. It is such a heavy burden to carry through life, being sad that you are alive.

[razz]

So sorry to read such tragic accounts understanding just a little of all the impact and sorrow associated with them. Hard to walk in another's shoes such as these.

[Teacher Terry]

Severe depression is hard to understand and extremely difficult to live with. I really feel for people that have that struggle.

[pinkytoe]

It is indeed sad that so many find it hard to be alive in this place and time.

[Teacher Terry]

It has always been a problem. I am doing genealogy research and my grandpa’s brother committed suicide on the last day of school at age 15 because his stepmom had been abusing him since he was 2. This was in the 1800’s.

[Ultralight]

There is an incredible lack of empathy and insight on this thread, in my opinion.

For some people, suicide is not a problem, it is a solution. The problem is their illness --- be it physical or mental.

I have mentioned this before, my friend Frank killed himself a few years back. I miss hanging out with him. We always made each other laugh so much by riffing on each other's darkly humorous and off-color jokes.

But Frank had profound depression. Being alive was mostly agony for him. When he took his own life I felt relieved. He was finally no longer suffering. His pain was over.

I admire his bravery.

[Teacher Terry]

There’s no lack of empathy here. You are a odd duck with a weird outlook on life.

[Tybee]

I think it's the terrible impact on those left behind that makes me very nervous when I hear folks my age say they plan to move to Oregon if they get very ill or very broke. It just shouldn't have to be that way, that people off themselves because they cannot get help. In my opinion, of course.

[JaneV2.0]

I think it's the terrible impact on those left behind that makes me very nervous when I hear folks my age say they plan to move to Oregon if they get very ill or very broke. It just shouldn't have to be that way, that people off themselves because they cannot get help. In my opinion, of course.

You have to be actively dying to get suicide assistance in Oregon--if I remember correctly--with only a few months to live. "Very broke" wouldn't cut it.

[Tybee]

Yes, I think folks don't quite get the Oregon model, at least the ones I have talked to!

[Gardnr]

There’s no lack of empathy here. You are a odd duck with a weird outlook on life.

+1.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It's not a lack of empathy. Some people have untreatable depression and that is why they kill themselves. The thread was about increases maybe due to issues in rural America, lack of opportunities etc.. Although they intersect suicide due to circumstances is not suicide that is inevitable. Chronic untreatable depression (and yes we're talking about the hard cases where nothing works) and you could win 20 million dollars in the lottery tomorrow and might still off yourself, but that's not the same as offing yourself because of circumstances, unable to afford healthcare, therapy, find work, pay bills etc. etc. If you really think external circumstances play no role, please note the fact that suicides go up recessions, as they do. That's excess deaths due to the business cycle. I have heard 1/5th of global suicides are due to unemployment.

So who is it that has a lack of empathy again? With "off yourself, it's courageous". 1) people have a right to end their lives 2) it's troublesome that suicide rates are INCREASING, because they are (and not just of people at the end of their natural lives). This may mean misery is increasing and what is so great about that?

(I got part-way through the emile durkheim book with my bf and we quit ha, so it's a little more complex than that. That book was so slow to cut to the chase, I now know 10,000 things that don't cause suicide according to Durkheim. But maybe we'll get back to it)

[ToomuchStuff]

Could this just be a matter of the survival of the fittest?

A friend from back in my hometown simply cannot fit himself into the world today with its educational, interpersonal, values, and skills requirements.

So he chose to become a drunken, drug addicted, and destitute person barely living on the fringes of our society. He is, truly, killing himself in slow motion. He could hit fast forward at any moment.

He can't adapt to our era.
Chosen to become an addict? I didn't realize addiction never had any physical or mental hooks, but was a choice.

Haven't we had discussions on this board in the past, about introverts, verses extroverts (what is your personality, etc)? I don't think what time frame your in, has much effect on that, as what you have grown up around/background, etc.

Over the years, I have known quite a few who have killed themselves (drunken Russian Roulette/card game, gave two boxes of ammo to a friend, because it was the "wrong caliber", only to find two bullets missing a few days latter when giver shot himself), or attempted (wrists slashed, attempted hanging). Even stopped one (children's song makes suicidal, as it was the last memory before parents abandonment).
Could you be the lack of empathy discussed in this thread?

[Chicken lady]

UL, would it not be better if your friend were ALIVE and no longer in pain?

i don’t think we lack empathy, I think we want a different solution.

Also, it’s lovely if your friend had a nice clean exit that didn’t damage or destroy the people around him, but that is rarely the case. I love three people who are living with the damage from someone else’s suicide (two guns and the high speed lane of the highway - talk about destroying other people’s lives!), and I am watching one slowly destroy a good friend’s family right now (gun). And in the last case, the pain was definitely inflicted by society.

i also came far too close to losing someone I love to suicide because of domestic abuse. And No One had any idea what was going on in that house. If she had had a gun instead of a broken bottle...

[LDAHL]

The problem I see with suicide is the same problem I see with capital punishment: the impossibility of correcting impulsive mistakes.

I don’t say it is never justifiable, but I think the bar should be set extremely high. Especially if it requires outside assistance to happen. I’d rather force a dozen people to live on in misery than take one salvageable life.

It probably does betray a lack of empathy on my part that I have difficulty placing myself in the position of someone who takes no interest in existence. Life is a gift, even when it’s the equivalent of a nasty old fruitcake.

[bae]

Also, it’s lovely if your friend had a nice clean exit that didn’t damage or destroy the people around him, but that is rarely the case.

My technical rescue team helps the coroner move all the bodies on the island, and helps him gather forensic evidence. It's a bit horrid at times. Even when people are tying to arrange "a nice clean exit", they rarely manage it.

Suicide causes mental trauma for first responders and all the other folks who have to clean up the mess.

[Teacher Terry]

I think taking too many pills would be preferable to rotting in a nursing home. But I get it that leaking bodily fluids is not pretty.

[Tybee]

I think taking too many pills would be preferable to rotting in a nursing home. But I get it that leaking bodily fluids is not pretty.


I have really come to change my opinion about nursing homes, now that my parents have been in two of them over the past 21 months.

At home on their farm, Dad was definitely talking about suicide, and hinted that if he got Mom out of the nursing home that that would be their end, although it would have been more a homicide suicide situation. I think he was trying to die there, given the fact that they weren't even eating at the end.

Now, he is quite happy where they are, enjoying going down to meals and making new friends, watching the boats sail by, and talking about getting a library card. He spends time with his children, his grandson, and his great granddaughters come to visit.

And yes, he has cancer in remission, and he is incontinent, and he struggles to walk with a walker--but he is back to life, there in the nursing home.

So I don't think now what I thought of nursing homes, and I don't suicide would have been a preferable end for him.

[razz]

Nursing homes can be wonderful solutions for situations requiring extra care. The greatest need is for a wise independent advocate for the resident whether family or friend who is responsible and attentive monitoring the care.

To the point in the OP, when people feel helpless due to circumstances beyond their control and best efforts like trade wars, politicking decisions without thought of those impacted, despair sets it and suicide seems an option.

I remember a time when New Zealand was in a severe financial stress. Our PM at the time, Brian Mulroney, decided to allow unlimited amounts of cheap NZ lamb to flood the Canadian market for a few years. Canadian sheep farmers who had farmed successfully for years were sent into bankruptcy because their lambs were being produced but the price received would not cover even the cost of transporting them to market never mind all the farming expenses. Farmers cannot simply stop growing crops or animals to instantly convert to other sources of revenue. Some farmers in the US now are in those or very similar circumstances now through no fault of their own.

[catherine]

Farmers cannot simply stop growing crops or animals to instantly convert to other sources of revenue. Some farmers in the US now are in those or very similar circumstances now through no fault of their own.

That's right... I know dairy farmers are having a tough time now. I live in an area where there are quite a few dairy farmers.

I always become sad when people commit suicide because of money issues. People who feel they are unable to support their family; people whose identity is lost because they lost their jobs. I would hope that if my source of revenue disappeared tomorrow I would never become so despondent that I would want to kill myself.

My uncle used to say "Money: it's only a means of exchange." But in this culture, it's not just a means of exchange: it's status, identity, and power. Lack of money is a such a meaningless reason for despair. I've BTDT, and I know that "money comes and money goes" (I actually hate that frequent proclamation of my DH, but it applies here). Human beings should live in a society where we are valued for just being who we are, regardless of how much money we have.

[Ultralight]

Even when people are tying to arrange "a nice clean exit", they rarely manage it.

Suicide causes mental trauma for first responders and all the other folks who have to clean up the mess.

No offense, but if I have cancer of the everything I am checking out -- mess or not.

[Ultralight]

Nursing homes can be wonderful solutions for situations requiring extra care.

Uh... have you ever been to a nursing home?

[bae]

No offense, but if I have cancer of the everything I am checking out -- mess or not.

I have a set of guidelines for how to do so without greatly impacting those left behind.

[Chicken lady]

I’ve been to lots of them. starting every Sunday at age 9. Most of them were mostly awful.

dh’s grandfather though, was in a really nice place. I wouldn’t want to be there because it was full of people living close together and social events, but he really enjoyed it until the last month or so, when he wasn’t able to enjoy much of anything. My step grandmother was in a less “nice” place, but it had a good library and dead-end hall clusters that discouraged random traffic. her private “room” (bed, bath, and semi-separate living area with kitchenette) was nicer than my reasonably comfortable college dorm experiences, and she enjoyed visitors and was allowed to just hang out in her own digs and eat meals alone as much as she liked.

[Teacher Terry]

The people I have known in nursing homes were very miserable. The last one was my good friend with early Alzheimer’s. I was so happy when her cancer came back and as her guardian I didn’t treat it. She lived 18 months there and although I loved her dearly I was relieved when she died. If her husband hadn’t died and she had been at home she would have still been happy. Maybe better if you can afford a private room. No privacy and every part of your life micromanaged. Luckily if I don’t take my HBP and heart medications for a few days it quickly goes into the dangerous range. I would just stop taking them.

[Ultralight]

I have a set of guidelines for how to do so without greatly impacting those left behind.
Please share.

[Teacher Terry]

I would also like to see it.

[Yppej]

My grandmother had a good experience with a nursing home. It was a nonprofit institution run by the Mennonites in Canada but accepted those like her not of that faith. I think the homes trying to squeeze high profits out of residents are the problematic ones. This is another example of why I think the US for profit medical system is bad, though there are some good facilities here too. The best one near my job that all my coworkers rave about is run by the Catholic church.

[razz]

Uh... have you ever been to a nursing home?

Yes, in actual fact, quite few providing oral health services at a time when little of that was provided to residents. I challenged the system fighting for those residents. Have you actually been in one to visit someone on a regular basis seeing them and their day-to-day interaction with others. Have you ever advocated for another needing support at a vulnerable time in life?

[Ultralight]

Have you ever advocated for another needing support at a vulnerable time in life?

Yes, many times. One example is Life After Belief. This was an organization in Columbus, OH where we'd meet as a support group for people who had left cults and fundamentalist religions. These people were so damaged and I wanted to support them in their healing and in their journey to secularism.

[Chicken lady]

Bae, if you are going to share, would you mind pming those to people instead of posting them?

[razz]

Bae, if you are going to share, would you mind pming those to people instead of posting them?

I feel the same way. Thanks for posting, CL.

[Rogar]

Our local news yesterday had a feature on a man who had attempted suicide twice, had gone through various therapies and medications but still had suicidal thoughts. He was middle aged and seemed to lead something of a normal life otherwise. Then, he was administered psilocybin mushrooms in an controlled environment with a medical professional providing a guided meditation. After one session he said he entire mindset had changed and he felt "cured". They then cited a study where patients with a terminal illness went through a similar controlled situation of guided meditation while on magic mushrooms. Eighty percent of the people claimed to experience a significant reduction in death anxieties. I think there are more similar studies out there. I guess magic mushrooms carry a larger social stigma than opioids or antidepressants, or maybe medicine is just slow to adapt and break out of big pharma. This year Denver voted to decriminalize mushroom possession, although you can't just go out and buy it. This is a short article about the decriminalization and some scientific studies. https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericmack/2019/05/07/denver-may-decriminalize-magic-mushrooms-heres-what-science-says-about-the-idea/#3f62a83b2603

It's my understanding that most Christian religions consider suicide a sin, and some claim it's a ticket to eternal damnation. And even some eastern philosophies claim it is escaping some sort of karmic payback from past lives that will need to be reconciled in a future life. Maybe that all came before modern medicine could prolong life for a long time with artificial methods. I would consider it as an alternative to permanent nursing home care. Those places are dismal, although I've visited assisted living facilities that were not all that bad, if a person can afford them.

[catherine]

When I was 16 (in 1968) I wrote a truly horrible short story about a person who loved a man who killed himself during a bad LSD trip. I've come a long way since then. I've never dropped acid, or eaten magic mushrooms, but I my thinking is that psilocybin mushrooms do have potential to help a lot of people. I haven't read Michael Pollan's book on the subject, but friends of mine in the permaculture community have definitely "indulged" and seem the better for it.

I have no plans now of exploring psychoactive solutions, but I would definitely consider it if I felt that life was caving in on me.

[JaneV2.0]

When I was 16 (in 1968) I wrote a truly horrible short story about a person who loved a man who killed himself during a bad LSD trip. I've come a long way since then. I've never dropped acid, or eaten magic mushrooms, but I my thinking is that psilocybin mushrooms do have potential to help a lot of people. I haven't read Michael Pollan's book on the subject, but friends of mine in the permaculture community have definitely "indulged" and seem the better for it.

I have no plans now of exploring psychoactive solutions, but I would definitely consider it if I felt that life was caving in on me.

Oregon is going to have a psilocybin legalization measure on the ballot coming up. My experiences with "magic mushrooms" were not transformative, but very, very pleasant. LSD not so much. Pollan's book changed my opinion of him for the better.

[ApatheticNoMore]

as one of those last try things, after therapy and medication, lifestyle and social life change etc. (ie conventional advice) sure. Or I think it needs a lot more research to show it's safer than antidepressants which is not entirely without side effects but if that doesn't work sure. Even electroshock is one of those last try things I guess, but the mushrooms are probably safer as ETC is not safe, ketamine maybe too. I just say if people are driven to want suicide by socially constructed circumstances (not inborn depression or being end of life) it says nothing good about society and it is a social problem.

Pollan's always been a good writer, some of the books were just meant as quick guides (for the nutritionally confused who were too lazy to read Omnivores Dilema) though and I'm sure quite profitable, and not real books, so one isn't going to enjoy his writing style there. Pollan's lasting and ironic impact there was probably just to get people to eat more meat, although grass fed.

[JaneV2.0]

What soured me on Pollan was a presentation wherein he and some foodie friend of his were making a meal of fresh foods and Pollan pointed out how easy the whole process was. Yes, I suppose it was easy for men with elastic schedules and a long history of food preparation to shop for and prepare food in a leisurely fashion--two of them, keep in mind. Very different from the experience of a person who might have worked all day, on her feet, trying to ride herd on children--while simultaneously cleaning, chopping, and cooking, putting in another half hour minimum on her poor, tired feet. I found it a blatant example of elitist myopia.

[catherine]

Pollan opened my eyes to the horrific situation with CAFOs and other manufacturing processes used to treat animals like Model T's on a production line. He also opened my eyes to the ubiquity of high fructose corn syrup. I read that book at 36,000 feet on my way to doing research on diabetes. It was in February, Lent was around the corner, and so I decided to give up HFCS for Lent.

That was the year I learned how to cook, because there was no other way to eat without touching HFCS, or at least there wasn't then. HFCS was in EVERYTHING on the supermarket shelves.

I still want to read Botany of Desire. I really like him, although, yes, Jane, I agree with you that it's easy to tell people they should grow and cook their own food. That attitudes shines a spotlight on how many people are shut out of "best practices" in nutrition.

[Rogar]

If I were diagnosed with an imminent terminal illness, I would definitely want some sort of additional medical or psychological support. I don't know a lot about antidepressants but all the TV ads say a possible side effect is suicidal thoughts. That puts magic mushrooms therapy in a little better perspective to me. I haven't read Pollen's book, but the other information I've run across stress doing it in a controlled medical environment, which reduces the odds of a bad trip significantly.

[JaneV2.0]

If I were diagnosed with an imminent terminal illness, I would definitely want some sort of additional medical or psychological support. I don't know a lot about antidepressants but all the TV ads say a possible side effect is suicidal thoughts. That puts magic mushrooms therapy in a little better perspective to me. I haven't read Pollen's book, but the other information I've run across stress doing it in a controlled medical environment, which reduces the odds of a bad trip significantly.

I've had only a few months' experience with SSRIs--and none with other Pharma psychoactives, but I suspect their ubiquity has a lot to do with the recent epidemic of suicide and suicide attempts (which seem to make up an inordinate amount of calls to police). I also think they have something to do with mass shootings and other mayhem. They may be necessary for some, but I'm under no delusion they're benign, or even particularly helpful for many people.

[Teacher Terry]

Anti-depressants have been a life saver for many with depression or anxiety. Many people can’t function without them. I doubt that they are responsible for many suicides.

[Ultralight]

What soured me on Pollan was a presentation wherein he and some foodie friend of his were making a meal of fresh foods and Pollan pointed out how easy the whole process was. Yes, I suppose it was easy for men with elastic schedules and a long history of food preparation to shop for and prepare food in a leisurely fashion--two of them, keep in mind. Very different from the experience of a person who might have worked all day, on her feet, trying to ride herd on children--while simultaneously cleaning, chopping, and cooking, putting in another half hour minimum on her poor, tired feet. I found it a blatant example of elitist myopia.

I think it has more to do with priorities than myopic elitism. haha

[Ultralight]

Anti-depressants have been a life saver for many with depression or anxiety. Many people can’t function without them. I doubt that they are responsible for many suicides.

Evidence?

[JaneV2.0]

Evidence?

British Medical Journal: https://www.bmj.com/content/358/bmj.j3697/rr-4

[JaneV2.0]

I think it has more to do with priorities than myopic elitism. haha

Pollan was pretty dismissive and deprecating, too.

I stand by my assertion where people with families and (particularly) manual labor or 8 hours on your feet-type jobs are concerned.
Maybe he's less of a putz now that he's "discovered" hallucinogens.

[pinkytoe]

On the topic of food and mental illness, I have always wondered if the horrific diets of many might be a contributing factor. There are so many people who live on a diet of little else than highly processed food. Another interesting thing re suicide I have read is that the rates are highest in high altitude, western states. I too believe that anti-depressants may be a factor in some cases. After all, suicidal thoughts are a warning on many of these kinds of drugs. I was prescribed SSRIs when I was in my 40s for what turned out to be a drug reaction to steroids. I guess no one knew at that time knew that steroid drugs could cause extreme panic disorder. I have never felt so weird and discombobulated as when I took those meds and trying to wean off of them was a nightmare.

[catherine]

On the subject of SSRIs and suicide, I have to say that many of us who knew the college professor I spoke of in an earlier post suspect that initiation of a few medications including SSRIs shortly before his death could have been responsible for his suicide. I would not rule it out.

[JaneV2.0]

On the topic of food and mental illness, I have always wondered if the horrific diets of many might be a contributing factor. There are so many people who live on a diet of little else than highly processed food. Another interesting thing re suicide I have read is that the rates are highest in high altitude, western states. I too believe that anti-depressants may be a factor in some cases. After all, suicidal thoughts are a warning on many of these kinds of drugs. I was prescribed SSRIs when I was in my 40s for what turned out to be a drug reaction to steroids. I guess no one knew at that time knew that steroid drugs could cause extreme panic disorder. I have never felt so weird and discombobulated as when I took those meds and trying to wean off of them was a nightmare.

Diet most likely plays a part, for a variety of reasons. Vegans are particularly susceptible, probably because of numerous deficiencies. Food sensitivities may play a part.

I didn't have any trouble coming off SSRIs, but they made me feel like a zombie. Now if I could just do without aspirin...:|(

[Rogar]

[QUOTE=JaneV2.0;334032]Diet most likely plays a part, for a variety of reasons. Vegans are particularly susceptible, probably because of numerous deficiencies. Food sensitivities may play a part./QUOTE]

There's no doubt in my mind that emotions and diet are linked, but I'm not sure we know the perfect diet. One thing I'll say for Pollen is that he has been popular enough to probably have nudged the general public away from fast foods and overly processed foods. Being pretty much a vegan I will say that it's not something to go into lightly without some study on nutrition. I think that vegans are commonly at fault nutritionally. In the case of a study though, one might say that people who are more prone to depression become vegans, in which case it's not the diet.

However, I can say that I occasionally get bummed out smelling chicken frying and knowing it's off limits.

[Ultralight]

Pollan was pretty dismissive and deprecating, too.

I stand by my assertion where people with families and (particularly) manual labor or 8 hours on your feet-type jobs are concerned.


They prioritized having kids they could not afford instead of growing, buying, preparing fresh foods.

[catherine]

They prioritized having kids they could not afford instead of growing, buying, preparing fresh foods.

I had kids I couldn't afford and raised them on Kraft Mac and cheese and Little Debbie snack cakes and they seem to have done just fine. Being able to feed your family organic, unprocessed food all the time is the Holy Grail, but it is difficult to achieve in this culture, and prioritizing a loving family over a perfect diet is a reasonable choice.

[Yppej]

If people only had kids when they could "afford" them the human species would have gone extinct a long time ago. There were times when my brothers and I were little the only thing in the house to eat was a jar of peanut butter.

People do all sorts of things they can't afford, such as taking out huge student loans they then shift onto taxpayers.

[Ultralight]

... trying to wean off of them was a nightmare. Probably designed that way.

[Ultralight]

Diet most likely plays a part, for a variety of reasons. Vegans are particularly susceptible, probably because of numerous deficiencies. Food sensitivities may play a part.
Evidence?


Now if I could just do without aspirin...:|(
What do you take aspirin for?

[Ultralight]

I had kids I couldn't afford and raised them on Kraft Mac and cheese and Little Debbie snack cakes and they seem to have done just fine.



Good point, my buddy Brian was raised in poverty by a single mom. He was one of 7 kids his mom had by at least 5 different men. These men often beat up Brian, his mom, and his siblings. These men were also literally all raging alcoholics. But hey, Brian turned out fine. He graduated from high school, college, and is now a professional photographer.

I guess that being raised in poverty by a single parent who cannot afford kids and having a string of violent alcoholic men in-and-out of their lives beating them up did not factor in. Brian is fine!

Now, for the other six kids... they are all FUBARed.

My point here is that people say things like this: "My dad whupped my butt all the time when I was kid. I turned out fine."

But...

1. Could they be the exception to the rule?
2. Imagine how Brian and his siblings would have been if they were raised in a stable, loving, peaceful family where both parents had good jobs.

[Rogar]

I never though Pollan's recommendations in "food rules" were all that difficult or restrictive but it is sort of like, your money or your life. It sort of starts, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. It's pretty basic after that. Don't eat things your grandmother would not recognize as food, things delivered through the window of your car are probably not real food, etc. It seems awfully simple to me. Other than some nit picking, I really don't get someone getting down on the guy.

My inspiration for vegan was and is my dental hygienist. She is Seventh Day Adventist and has been a full time hygienist and lifetime vegan. She raised two healthy children as vegan and some of the time has been a single mother. Now, her children are out of the house and she is older, but she still spends day at a time backpacking in the mountains with her family. I know that as a fact being a vegan with good nutritional values is more difficult than observing Pollen's diet recommendations. I figured if she could do it, I could.

[ApatheticNoMore]

What soured me on Pollan was a presentation wherein he and some foodie friend of his were making a meal of fresh foods and Pollan pointed out how easy the whole process was. Yes, I suppose it was easy for men with elastic schedules and a long history of food preparation to shop for and prepare food in a leisurely fashion--two of them, keep in mind. Very different from the experience of a person who might have worked all day, on her feet, trying to ride herd on children--while simultaneously cleaning, chopping, and cooking, putting in another half hour minimum on her poor, tired feet. I found it a blatant example of elitist myopia.

it's hard with kids as they are picky eaters. I think it might lead people in the wrong direction into fancy meal preparation (which is fine sometimes when one has time of course), when boring real food might be more realistic, like put a piece of meat and a potato/sweet potato in the oven for dinner etc... Have yogurt for breakfast, or fruit, or oatmeal etc.. Veggies need some prep, doesn't have to be huge, but yea, although there are shortcuts like packaged lettuce and spinach and arugula etc.. Just make the simplest foods you will eat, if there are a few healthy hacks (like canned beans) they can be used, at least you will be nourished even if you don't crack a single recipe book. But it does get more difficult with kids.

Food growing up was boring enough afterall and we were ok with it, and I was a skinny kid, so kids might not be overweight if food was as deadly dull as I remember it.


I still want to read Botany of Desire. I really like him

yea

[LDAHL]

I had kids I couldn't afford and raised them on Kraft Mac and cheese and Little Debbie snack cakes and they seem to have done just fine. Being able to feed your family organic, unprocessed food all the time is the Holy Grail, but it is difficult to achieve in this culture, and prioritizing a loving family over a perfect diet is a reasonable choice.

Absolutely. No way would I trade time with my kid for time curating my vegetable crisper. If that means Pop Tarts for breakfast and Tombstone Pizza for dinner every so often, that is a price I will cheerfully pay.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It depends on how often I guess. The logical outcome of it is often: your kid (all grown up) develops type 2 diabetes by their 30s.

[LDAHL]

It depends on how often I guess. The logical outcome of it is often: your kid (all grown up) develops type 2 diabetes by their 30s.

Of all my parental worries, that one ranks pretty low. I think there are many possible outcomes between diabetic and food-obsessed neurotic.

[JaneV2.0]

It wasn't that Pollan's recommendations were wrong--who can argue with "eat whole foods"?--but that it was delivered with such dismissive smugness in the clip I saw.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I've only read Pollan, and found him a fun to read, I've never actually seen any clips of him.

[JaneV2.0]

Of all my parental worries, that one ranks pretty low. I think there are many possible outcomes between diabetic and food-obsessed neurotic.

Also, type 2 diabetes is eminently reversible in a 30 year-old, if you seek out the right resources.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Also, type 2 diabetes is eminently reversible in a 30 year-old, if you seek out the right resources.

They have to want to and hard if one isn't willing to largely give up junk food. There isn't many possible outcomes for everyone, it is true there is such a thing as too obsessive, but not everyone's body can take much junk food, they might be susceptible to obesity, diabetes etc.. I got overweight as a teenager on junk food even, so much for youthful metabolism, what a myth that is. Of course it's better to just model healthy eating for children, then first have them get sick and then try to recover etc..

[Ultralight]

If people only had kids when they could "afford" them the human species would have gone extinct a long time ago.

I doubt that.


There were times when my brothers and I were little the only thing in the house to eat was a jar of peanut butter.

Are you bragging?

I am sure you all had to walk six miles in the snow to school too, and uphill -- bothways! LOL

Things were differnt back in your day! Differnt!


People do all sorts of things they can't afford, such as taking out huge student loans they then shift onto taxpayers.

False equivalency, and you know it.

People also say annoying things just to be annoying. Would you know anything about that?

[Ultralight]

It wasn't that Pollan's recommendations were wrong--who can argue with "eat whole foods"?--but that it was delivered with such dismissive smugness in the clip I saw.

Can a person be smug in condemning what they see as smugness in others? This is a question worth asking yourself.

[Ultralight]

Also, type 2 diabetes is eminently reversible in a 30 year-old, if you seek out the right resources.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.