View Full Version : This is dark and possibly upsetting
Chicken lady
2-17-20, 7:48am
But I am really struggling.
dh looked at me yesterday and said “you are broken, and I don’t know how to fix you.”
and I said “I know. I don’t know either.”
And he asked “what is breaking you?”
to which I replied “top of the list today? I’m living in a world where children want to die.”
He tried to say he thought nothing had changed, that it is just “media awareness” and I listed by name the six young people in my life who have attempted to take their lives in the last 8 months. Two succeeded. One is in the hospital. Two are in residential facilities.
he said “it has been a bad year.”
I wake up every day and I feel like the world is burning and I don’t know what to do. Every action I can take seems so small and meaningless. And yet, I do not have the strength, connections, power, for big, dramatic actions. I can’t find anything I could do that I feel like would make a difference. I try to focus on the tasks in front of me. But it is overwhelming.
my grandfather was a surgeon. When I asked him what he did in the war he said “patch up broken boys so they could go back and die.” He drank himself to death.
i cry a lot.
i don’t know how people who care just keep going. I see the light in the world, but somehow it just makes the blackness more dark.
my daughter is going to have a baby and I am happy and excited and I haven’t even told one if my best friends because we raised our kids together and her son is awaiting trial for murder and holding those two things in my heart at the same time is agonizing and I can’t imagine how it would feel to her.
what do you do? How do you make it enough? How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?
i am great in the classroom. I am good at the pottery studio. And at home, I have nothing left.
I wish I could give you a big hug.
You can't save the world, CL. You were put on earth to attend to your small corner of it, which you are doing in spades. There are so many things we can't control, and it's an acceptance of those things that gives us some measure of peace. My father died a homeless drunk. My stepfather did the same. How did I cope with that loss? I put on an emotional coat of armor. My best friend in high school told me that I was like a flower with a thick coat of wax that only the strongest sun could penetrate and melt.
But that's not so great either. It caused me to sleepwalk through many things in my life that I should have had a healthier response to. It has led to many regrets.
So somewhere, we have to find the line between being overwhelmed by the world's pain and immunizing ourselves against it.
I still have active addiction in my family that keeps me up at night. But years of Al-anon have taught me that I can't control everything. Some things I have to hand over to God. And I also have to find a way to accept life as it is, while throwing at least one or two starfish back in the sea. What helps me now is trying not to impose my sense of what "should" be on things in my life. It also helps to see and recognize the bright points of light in life and practicing gratitude on a regular basis.
Sometimes that's not enough, though. Have you ever considered professional help just to work through those feelings of sadness?
If I remember in the past you have rejected counseling and medication. I hope you will reconsider.
Where your main concern is mental health a NAMI friends and family support group may help. The one in my area was small and not helpful but where you live it may be better.
Your Employee Assistance Plan may also be able to help.
As you teach there are many young people whose lives you touch who are not suicidal. You are doing good work.
My son was hospitalized last month for suicidal plans but is home and better now. Things do get better. Not all years are bad years.
Chicken lady
2-17-20, 8:50am
When my daughter was born, they gave me a narcotic. It did absolutely nothing for the pain, but it relaxed me completely. Everything still hurt, but I did not care. All the Secondary responses to pain were gone. I also became disassociated and completely uncooperative. It was an amazing feeling and I could very easily become an addict. In fact, an argument could be made that I am an addict that has simply chosen never to take a second hit. I am never going to Voluntarily try psychoactive medication. The idea of being chemically separated from caring makes me ill.
Is therapy going to teach me not to be sad about sad things? THAT sounds crazy.
My “Employee Assistance Plan” is Becky who tries to organize your coworkers to bring meals if your kid is in the hospital.
i know I can’t fix everything. It is the knowing that makes me angry and sad.
and I do not mean to be offensive, but handing things off to god is not particularly satisfying. I am not adequately impressed with their track record. Mostly they just hands things back. “God has no hands on Earth but ours.” Remembering that is the only thing that lets me entertain the possibility of a benevolent force.
There is always the possibility that I could have done more. And I understand that the race is a marathon and not a sprint. But it is the never knowing when to sprint part that breaks me.
There is a rote conversation, where the first person says what they would have done if they had known, and the second person says you couldn’t know and then the first person is supposed to accept that and feel better. But I accept that and feel angry. I want to scream “well that is the part we need to fix then, isn’t it?”
Oh , Chicken Lady, I, too, would like to give you a big hug. Part of depression is feeling hopeless and angry and that nothing will help. I also encourage you to try therapy. I had a licensed clinical social worker who was an amazing help to me. I went for 3 or 4 years, then back after something else happened, then just last Dec. and I hadn't been for 15 years...I was so glad she was still in practice. But, it may help you cope with the "knowing that makes you angry and sad." Broken can be helped. Hugs to you.
dado potato
2-17-20, 9:29am
Sending hugs and healing vibes.
Art Grabowski, of Grand Forks, North Dakota, died at the age of 105. He was a lifelong learner, interested in art, music, history, science, current events, and nature. In retirement he worked as a picture-framer and wood-worker. Some of his turned wooden bowls are in the collection of the ND Museum of Art. After his wife died, Art Grabowski sang in a Barbershop quartet; he credited Barbershop with keeping him alive.
His obituary stated, "He had a lot of people die in his life, but he taught us that you have to go on. You can be sad, but you have to go on."
There are non-narcotic medication options.
iris lilies
2-17-20, 9:43am
CL, you do have an answer for whatever anyone is talking to you about and why that wont work for you. .
so I wonder, what it is you expect to get from your post?
Who appointed you the caretaker of the world? Seriously, who did?
When I try to be Mrs Fixit for all the challenges that are happening around me, I struggle as you are doing right now. I was no help to those I love, even dragged them down with me like a drowning person.
,
You are a light of life, joy and creativity. Your job is to be the best, brightest light you can be. That is all that you own. Each of us has full ownership of our lives.
My bleakest moment came when it was the Myanmar police and priests who were slaughtering and assaulting the Rohingya population - women, children and men. I had such a trust that some principles would govern the priests and police and their actions. I walked around in a frustrated rage. Did it help those poor people being assaulted or correct those committing the crimes? I accomplished absolutely nothing!!!!!! When I finally admitted that truth to myself, I swore that my life was worth more than feeling helpless and useless.
As Catherine posted above, you decide what you will do with your life. Feeling heartbroken, frustrated and discouraged simply sucks the life out of you and hurts those around you. It is absolutely useless and a waste of a precious gift of life.
I have become comfortable with feeling vulnerable. I invite people to join me for coffee, a walk, taste testing, dinners, some events with spontaneity. I share my joy and gratitude in simple things, remind people of their important contributions to the moment and/or over their lives. The world needs to be loved and supported in so many ways.
The response has been wonderful. People spend so much time watching TV which sensationalizes and sell ads to make more money. People have been so hypnotized by the dark reports and images. I find and share the wonderful things that are happening all around us; I create a truthful antidote to all that cr*p. My life has purpose and value in doing so.
I use the analogy of being a lifeguard. i don't jump in the water with the drowning victim who can pull me down with both of us drowning. I lovingly and tenderly provide options of support and rescue. Whether they choose to accept any option or not is up to them as they are sovereign beings. I am not a Mrs. Fixit for the world. I am only one ray of sunshine among many but 'dam-it' I am shining with my whole heart. That is my reason for living. I love being alive as there is so much good going on.
Chicken lady
2-17-20, 9:49am
Generally when fighting depression, one gives the person tools that do help.
what exactly would it look like if a therapist “fixed” me.
when I was anemic and low on energy, I took iron and I felt better because it solved the underlying problem of iron deficiency. I did not take strong stimulants that made me feel energetic while leaving the anemia in place.
what I would like are some better tools to address the underlying causes of the pain, not tools to make the pain go away.
what I want to know is how to better fix what is broken that is breaking me. What I want uis a course of action that I can believe will create results. I would like to feel like I tipped the balance, a stretch of time where the good things I helped with feel bigger than the bad things I didn’t, or couldn’t help, or worse - contributed to. where the preventable bad stuff happens to people I don’t know or at least I don’t feel like it should have been preventable by me.
i have a friend at work who smokes. She knows that I wish she wouldn’t smoke and that I would be happy to support her in any way I can if she decides to quit. If she dies of lungs cancer, I will be sad, and true or not, I will feel like it was preventable, but I won’t feel like I should have been able to do something about it.
iris lilies
2-17-20, 10:25am
Generally when fighting depression, one gives the person tools that do help.
what exactly would it look like if a therapist “fixed” me.
when I was anemic and low on energy, I took iron and I felt better because it solved the underlying problem of iron deficiency. I did not take strong stimulants that made me feel energetic while leaving the anemia in place.
what I would like are some better tools to address the underlying causes of the pain, not tools to make the pain go away.
what I want to know is how to better fix what is broken that is breaking me. What I want uis a course of action that I can believe will create results. I would like to feel like I tipped the balance, a stretch of time where the good things I helped with feel bigger than the bad things I didn’t, or couldn’t help, or worse - contributed to. where the preventable bad stuff happens to people I don’t know or at least I don’t feel like it should have been preventable by me.
i have a friend at work who smokes. She knows that I wish she wouldn’t smoke and that I would be happy to support her in any way I can if she decides to quit. If she dies of lungs cancer, I will be sad, and true or not, I will feel like it was preventable, but I won’t feel like I should have been able to do something about it.
There ARE tools. You reject them. And that is ok because you may very well be right that none of them help you. If only you can relieve your own pain, (the conventional tools are not for you) I wonder what you think of razz’s post which is right on.
You cannot fix the underlying causes of the pain in the world. You can only change your reaction to it. You could try Buddhism which focuses a lot on coming to terms with suffering.
catherine
2-17-20, 11:30am
You cannot fix the underlying causes of the pain in the world. You can only change your reaction to it. You could try Buddhism which focuses a lot on coming to terms with suffering.
I agree that Buddhism could be a good tool for Yppej's reason. I was going to say that one of my favorite tools when I get hung up and anxious is the phrase "Detach yourself from the results." Our impact that we make on our life journey can't always be measured but us or anyone. There's no "balancing the scales"--CL, you probably will never know how much your life has positively impacted the lives of thousands of people. That's OK. But as others have said, it's only you who can the thinking that is holding you down.
Chicken lady
2-17-20, 11:33am
I believe that I can fix some of the underlying causes of some pain in the world.
i do not hurt because I am bad at it. I hurt because I believe I can be better at it. The tools I want are how to learn to be better at it, not how to stop caring if I am making progress.
I also do not want to be made to believe that I cannot be better at it, which would be either unbelievably arrogant (I am already the best) or a further blow to my self image (sorry, this really is all you will ever be capable of) although the extinction of hope would probably reduce the pain. I’m just not sure about the side effects - so I would probably make a poor Buddhist.
i want “here is the Trevor project to put on your classroom wall.” “These are interventions that are working, here is a really effective place to apply energy....”
when I talk about my weight, which is causing pain in my knee and hip, most of you offer a bunch of suggestions about diet and exercise and even though we all agree that there is variation in what works for individual people, there is a huge variety of ideas. Very few people say “take painkillers or get used to the pain.”
the primary problem I am trying to solve is not the pain, it is the weight. If I can solve the weight, I believe the pain will go away.
if I can achieve a sense of progress, I feel like the pain will get better.
Teacher Terry
2-17-20, 11:46am
Therapy doesn’t fix you. There can be 10 people with the same problem and they will each have a different solution. The therapist gives you the tools and helps you find your own solution. Twice in my life a great therapist has helped me. People don’t change until the pain of staying the same is more than the pain of changing.
Buddhism is not just about detaching from your pain, but learning to extend compassion to others in effective ways. Sometimes it is just being there. In the West we are focused on doing not being. It seems you are trapped in this mindset that you must have a big list of things you can do to solve problems. But sometimes you have to learn the humility to admit you are not the heroine who can fix everything and that's okay.
ApatheticNoMore
2-17-20, 11:48am
Well you can not single handedly prevent every young person from committing suicide. How do you want to prevent them from doing so? How do you see it as possible? Because even if you were their parent, even parents sometimes can't and they are with them more than you are. Even therapists sometimes can't. So I don't think you can as a teacher.
Have you taken courses on how therapists/social workers deal with the pain of losing clients to suicide etc.? Because that's where the direct guidance might be, in people who deal with suicidal patients every day for a living (really though it affects them too, they experience burn out, social worker burnout is a real thing). But I imagine they have some training, and there is probably even information on the type of burnout they experience in helping others. See ha, I'm not saying go to a therapist, but maybe you could learn from what therapists and social workers KNOW in dealing with their clients and living to help another day, if you haven't already - take classes, learn about the subject maybe etc..
Why do you think so many young people are killing themselves? If you think the causes are social/political you could try political activism, honestly that sounds closer to what you might be seeking then therapy. It will make you feel less alone in confronting social problems as it is people coming together to change society, it's not trying to change it all alone. And it is quite possible the problems are much bigger than can be solved in the classroom, they are social and political problems.
I have a very low opinion of therapy (having had plenty), but hey if you wanted to try therapy I would not discourage it since I think it's as personal a matter as there can be, but clearly you don't much want to either, and that's ok.
Chicken Lady first hugs.
I can tell you from personnel experience that the things IL, Razz and all the others are telling
you would help. Not help that makes you ignore the world but help that helps you deal
with your feelings about it.
Eight years ago at 64 I lost my husband (been with him since I was 15), my best women friend ever,
(a friend like a sister of 42 years). Since then a sister, a life long friend, and many more.
I had always thought I was the person who could put on the smile and go on....Ms Strong.
The sadness was overwhelming but, being old school I thought I Should Just Get Over It.
Four years ago I realized with some help for my Dd that I was coping but, not thriving, I
was pushing people away from me. I realized I couldn't stand being sad anymore and had
gone to angry and becoming bitter about life and the world.
At 68 I ask my doctor and she sent me to the therapist, NO drugs were suggested just talk.
It was the best thing I ever did. I learnt how some of my thinking was flawed and how to
react differently. I went for a year and would go back in a minute if I start feeling that anger again.
I did not learn to not care, I did not learn to stop trying to be of use to people or
bury my feelings. I think it has been just the opposite.
The biggest thing I took away was to not always say I Should be/do a certain thing, or
the world Should be/do a certain thing.
Sorry this is so long I am not always good at writing things,.
And, I think it is like the weight you need to learn about all the tools that are available
and then find which works for you. It too will be trial and error, but worth the effort.
Of course you might be able to do more for the world but, it is a big relief to accept
you can't do it all!
The world has always been a cruel place, only the circumstances change. You can find your own windmills to tilt at, but even Mother Teresa became disheartened. I understand a lot of people are feeling hopeless these days.
The problem seems to be depression, rather than the state of the world--and depression can be intractable. There probably are various actions that would help, if you had the psychic energy to hunt them down. I'm sorry you're struggling.
iris lilies
2-17-20, 12:15pm
Buddhism is not just about detaching from your pain, but learning to extend compassion to others in effective ways. Sometimes it is just being there. In the West we are focused on doing not being. It seems you are trapped in this mindset that you must have a big list of things you can do to solve problems. But sometimes you have to learn the humility to admit you are not the heroine who can fix everything and that's okay.
I wrote a long dull post but deleted it, and you said it. This is about humility. The boring old
Desiderata is the real thing, Simple but hard.
Anything else I say is just yakking pointlessly.
As an empath, I hear you. I use to cry driving home from emergency surgery caused by beatings...abuse beyond my understanding.
I always have to take myself back to the starfish story: I can't save them all, but what I do for this one makes a difference. Focus on your contribution to your community both in your work and your personal time. None of us can ever do it all no matter how much we want to.
Example: rather than feed 1 person on the street corner when I see them, I donate $100/month to our local foodbank. They have a contract to turn that $ 5X into food for 1000s across our state, weekend backpack programs for kids, lunch in the park all summer while school is out......
Have I cured world hunger? NO! emphatically NO! However, I make a difference every day with this small gift. I simply cannot spend my emotions worrying about the hunger everywhere else or I would crumble.
I do think counseling for a while could be helpful. Or a ton of reading and homework to work it through for yourself. I've done both. You deserve to enjoy your life even when there is pain all around you-direct view or world view.
And above all, be kind to yourself. This is a very difficult road and you CAN do it!
Generally when fighting depression, one gives the person tools that do help.
what exactly would it look like if a therapist “fixed” me.
when I was anemic and low on energy, I took iron and I felt better because it solved the underlying problem of iron deficiency. I did not take strong stimulants that made me feel energetic while leaving the anemia in place.
what I would like are some better tools to address the underlying causes of the pain, not tools to make the pain go away.
what I want to know is how to better fix what is broken that is breaking me. What I want uis a course of action that I can believe will create results. I would like to feel like I tipped the balance, a stretch of time where the good things I helped with feel bigger than the bad things I didn’t, or couldn’t help, or worse - contributed to. where the preventable bad stuff happens to people I don’t know or at least I don’t feel like it should have been preventable by me.
what I want to know is how to better fix what is broken that is breaking me. Response: You focus on what you DIDN'T do. You need to focus on what you DO! Those are your successes and making a difference in the world.
what exactly would it look like if a therapist “fixed” me. RESPONSE: A therapist does not FIX. A therapist gives you tools and walks you through the work by listening and giving feedback and refining the tools.
Generally when fighting depression, one gives the person tools that do help. RESPONSE:
What Are the Main Causes of Depression?
Abuse. Past physical, sexual, or emotional abuse can increase the vulnerability to clinical depression later in life.
Certain medications. ...
Conflict. ...
Death or a loss. ...
Genetics. ...
Major events. ...
Other personal problems. ...
Serious illnesses.
You have to do the work to get to the bottom of what causes your depression. If it's chemical, it's not going to get better without an Anti-depressant just as Diabetics must take Insulin. If it's other life events, then do the work to get through to acceptance of the past and move on.
I suggest you start with the book: Dance of Anger. There is a workbook to go with it.
Read "The Art of Happiness" as well. No more simplistic life of service than the Buddhists.
The Healing comes from within. The work is yours. You can use guides (therapy), or you can find resources and guide yourself. The journey is challenging and constant.
I am a big fan of bibliotherapy. I am currently working myself out of a depression, and I highly recommend these three books:
F*ck Feelings, by Michael and Sarah Bennett
Get it Done when you're Depressed, by Julie Fast and Jon Preston, and
The Happiness Trap, by Russ Harris.
I am most intrigued by this last one, as he practices ACT therapy, which I think has a great deal to offer those of us who are depressed.
Basically, my take on this whole depression thing (which I have had since I was 12, as has my dad, my grandmother, and my great uncle) is that it biochemical and we need to approach it holistically, but super important to fix our thinking, and to begin to take life on life's terms, rather than being constantly disappointed because of our expectations of how things should be.
Al Anon helps a lot with that, too, and since you mention your granddad and drinking, I'd try that if I were you-- it has helped me to cope with the damage caused by my dad's alcoholism. And yes, they all had reasons to drink, but that is beside the point, really. Al Anon is the first place where I have learned to separate myself from their pain.
Basically, I grew up with people who did not teach me how to handle life's pain; they just avoided it by drinking, and there was an educational lack there in coping. So I work to remedy it myself, to improve my life and to improve the lives of those associated with me--hoping to be an example to my own children, if I live that long.
Buddhism is not just about detaching from your pain, but learning to extend compassion to others in effective ways. Sometimes it is just being there. In the West we are focused on doing not being. It seems you are trapped in this mindset that you must have a big list of things you can do to solve problems. But sometimes you have to learn the humility to admit you are not the heroine who can fix everything and that's okay.
This bears repeating. Having a daily, unremitting to-do list--like being driven by hell hounds--seems to be common these days.
I think you can be assured that we are all here for each other - even though we are just virtual beings. It is apparently very hard to be a human for many of us earthlings. I find that reminding myself that "this too shall pass" helps when I am in the midst of a funk because it always changes eventually. Gratitude for the good things and limiting media exposure. There is also some interesting research (to me at least) on how diet and biomes affect our mental state.
Buddhism is not just about detaching from your pain, but learning to extend compassion to others in effective ways. Sometimes it is just being there. In the West we are focused on doing not being. It seems you are trapped in this mindset that you must have a big list of things you can do to solve problems. But sometimes you have to learn the humility to admit you are not the heroine who can fix everything and that's okay.
Yes.
I think you can be assured that we are all here for each other - even though we are just virtual beings. It is apparently very hard to be a human for many of us earthlings. I find that reminding myself that "this too shall pass" helps when I am in the midst of a funk because it always changes eventually. Gratitude for the good things and limiting media exposure. There is also some interesting research (to me at least) on how diet and biomes affect our mental state.
Yes--depression and the gut biome are hot topics these days!
Therapy and medication is my suggestion. I know you don’t like to hear that. Narcotics are nothing like antidepressants.
I also will stick my neck out to mention that those who reject help while still asking for help sometimes just are not able to see truth until they decide to accept the help. They are choosing to remain in their suffering sometimes as an heroic act - which can sound a little self-serving actually to the rest of us who are trying to help.
I don't mean to offend - but you asked. I won’t say again unless you ask again. I have 22 years of full time psychiatric nurse experience that I am happy to use to help you,
Simplemind
2-17-20, 3:16pm
"Just being there." It is one of the most healing and powerful things you can do. It is also one of the most difficult.
I am often asked how I do what I do. I have been to as many as three suicide calls in one day and so many of them are children. It is shocking how young they are. We used to respond to schools on occasion and now it is several times a week to assist kids in talking about a school related grief situation. What is coming out is not only the situation that we are there for but so much more about their home lives, bullying etc. Kids today are feeling so much pressure that they are not emotionally equipped to deal with. The parents rarely have a clue.
All of these situations are traumatic but they are not mine. I go in and I see unimaginable things but I'm there to assist the survivors. I can have an emotional response in the moment but it can never eclipse the emotions of the people I have been called to assist. It is tragic BUT it is not my tragedy. I also can not fix it - NOBODY CAN. There are no words and the most powerful thing you can do is to be there. Just be there. See what they see, allow them to feel what they feel. You can't try to normalize an abnormal situation. You can't minimize it with platitudes. The most loving thing you can do is be there in the muck. You have to learn to stop the impulse to shovel the muck yourself or steer somebody else to do it before they are ready. You can control nothing. It all comes down to learning to be comfortable with lack of control.
I am there for survivors to emotionally unload. Within 24 hours there is a call coming to me so that I can unload what I witnessed and experienced. I also debrief others from their calls and within 24 hours I get a call to unload all I have absorbed from those calls. Talking with a good listener is key. A good listener knows they can't fix but they can be there to support the emotional load. We are insistent on self-care and following through on it. Self-care looks different to each of us. For me it is working with people in the same community but in a positive feel-good way that balances what I see on the other. I may not be able to battle (control) the evil and despair in the world but I can inject positivity into it. I can stand silent witness and support to somebody on the worst day of their lives and the next day I can bring flowers, food and a smile to somebody who really needs it. Those are my politics, that is my church.
We can't control a lot. We often can't control what we wish but we can do something. It isn't required that you sacrifice your soul to lighten the load of another. On that note you also have to realize that you have to put your own oxygen mask on before you can assist anybody else.
A major component of depression is rumination. You sound terribly depressed. Mentally grinding on your sorrows compounding it with the sorrows of others is a toxic pied piper that keeps leading you down in a spiral. It is work to change that ingrained thought process. I don't know too many people who have been able to pull out without therapy. Please, please, please...… reach out for help. Give yourself even a fraction of the effort you give others. You matter.
"Just being there." It is one of the most healing and powerful things you can do. It is also one of the most difficult.
I am often asked how I do what I do. I have been to as many as three suicide calls in one day and so many of them are children. It is shocking how young they are. We used to respond to schools on occasion and now it is several times a week to assist kids in talking about a school related grief situation. What is coming out is not only the situation that we are there for but so much more about their home lives, bullying etc. Kids today are feeling so much pressure that they are not emotionally equipped to deal with. The parents rarely have a clue.
All of these situations are traumatic but they are not mine. I go in and I see unimaginable things but I'm there to assist the survivors. I can have an emotional response in the moment but it can never eclipse the emotions of the people I have been called to assist. It is tragic BUT it is not my tragedy. I also can not fix it - NOBODY CAN. There are no words and the most powerful thing you can do is to be there. Just be there. See what they see, allow them to feel what they feel. You can't try to normalize an abnormal situation. You can't minimize it with platitudes. The most loving thing you can do is be there in the muck. You have to learn to stop the impulse to shovel the muck yourself or steer somebody else to do it before they are ready. You can control nothing. It all comes down to learning to be comfortable with lack of control.
I am there for survivors to emotionally unload. Within 24 hours there is a call coming to me so that I can unload what I witnessed and experienced. I also debrief others from their calls and within 24 hours I get a call to unload all I have absorbed from those calls. Talking with a good listener is key. A good listener knows they can't fix but they can be there to support the emotional load. We are insistent on self-care and following through on it. Self-care looks different to each of us. For me it is working with people in the same community but in a positive feel-good way that balances what I see on the other. I may not be able to battle (control) the evil and despair in the world but I can inject positivity into it. I can stand silent witness and support to somebody on the worst day of their lives and the next day I can bring flowers, food and a smile to somebody who really needs it. Those are my politics, that is my church.
We can't control a lot. We often can't control what we wish but we can do something. It isn't required that you sacrifice your soul to lighten the load of another. On that note you also have to realize that you have to put your own oxygen mask on before you can assist anybody else.
A major component of depression is rumination. You sound terribly depressed. Mentally grinding on your sorrows compounding it with the sorrows of others is a toxic pied piper that keeps leading you down in a spiral. It is work to change that ingrained thought process. I don't know too many people who have been able to pull out without therapy. Please, please, please...… reach out for help. Give yourself even a fraction of the effort you give others. You matter.
I am so grateful for the collective wisdom on this forum, as well as the deep empathy, sacrifice and compassion.
rosarugosa
2-17-20, 4:12pm
I'm sorry you are in such a dark place, CL.
When I retired, I was gifted with "The Book of Joy" by the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu. I am an atheist, and I didn't think this book was going to be my cup of tea. I actually got a lot of value from it, especially when I was dealing with some health issues of my own and then my mother's Alzheimer's diagnosis. It was the chapter on acceptance that I found really helpful. "Acceptance - whether we believe in God or not - allows us to move into the fullness of joy. It allows us to engage with life on its own terms rather than rail against the fact that life is not the way we would wish." The book also said "Acceptance, it must be pointed out, is the opposite of resignation and defeat.... We are meant to live in joy...This does not mean that life will be easy or painless. It means that we can turn our faces to the wind and accept that this is the storm we must pass through. We cannot succeed by denying what exists. The acceptance of reality is the only place from which change can begin." I personally found this to be a useful and compelling message.
mschrisgo2
2-17-20, 4:25pm
Chicken Lady, Big Hug. It IS hard.
*******since my post was not helpful, and I continually get a message that this website is “not secure” - I have removed my personal story.
Teacher Terry
2-17-20, 4:30pm
It’s easy to get lost in other people’s problems and want to fix things. I only lasted 4 years as a social worker because the only jobs available in our town which wasn’t big were in child protection. It broke my soul. The other time I got lost in trying to help was when I got involved with dog rescue. I finally realized I couldn’t rescue them all.
I'm sorry you've hit such a rough patch, Chicken Lady.
You've been given some solid options here, even if not all of them are to your taste. I would echo mschrisgo2's suggestion to get a medical workup. There may be a health problem or there may be medications working at cross purposes. If nothing else, you've ruled out a physical ailment.
After that, well,... I really would recommend speaking with someone outside of your family/friends circle who can at least listen attentively and occasionally point out a different way to look at what's going on in your life. As others have mentioned, a counselor does not "fix" -- only you can do that -- they simply ask questions about you, your values, your feelings, and how they apply to situations in your life. As observers, they have the ability to identify things like commonalities in behavior or how situations X, Y, and Z seem to be manifestations of the same conflict. That kind of insight can make a real difference in you figuring out what you can do to best approach the situation(s) at hand.
I am just coming off a year of counseling over a family situation (and some external issues) that, at a couple of points, had me thinking seriously of checking out permanently because it seemed easier than continuing to fight (wasn't sure I was going to write that.) I was Mr. Fixit -- and things weren't getting fixed. My counselor helped validate me and how I felt about these situations, and helped me understand for myself that I had done all it was possible to do. There even were some approaches I engaged during the time I was in counseling (to no avail). There was an element of me accepting the situation and, honestly, I'm still wrestling with that a little. But the counseling helped me tremendously in seeing the situation for what it was/is.
Without trying to play junior psychologist, I will ask these questions:
- Rather than recount all that you have not done or cannot do, can you view life in terms of the things you do, accepting that you may never see the positive difference you have made (and are making) in scores of students and others in your life? How many souls have you lifted up, validated, given an outlet, modeled kindness, simply been there for?
- Can you believe yourself to be a positive influence on the world and vow to continue to be a positive influence? This may mean practicing greater self-care or establishing more or firmer boundaries. That, in turn, may mean pulling back from other commitments or modifying some personal values to make it all fit into your day. In this respect, it's like being a potter: you can learn the basic skills for the activity and make functional pieces, but there always are additional skills to master and experience to be gained. Improvement does not end. Yet no matter how much you might improve (and, at some level, I'm guessing, it's very difficult to improve), you still are a potter. Does it matter that your work doesn't sell for thousands of dollars or get featured in the news? No. It does not take away from your being a potter that you are not the pinnacle of the craft and that there still are things you could improve upon.
- What are you living for? Is it your role to be the constant empath? Are you the person responsible for making everyone become as self-actualized as possible? If those are not your roles, is it possible to accept the role of helper, of someone who assists others, of someone who takes on a portion of the job of assisting others in life and does it to the best of her ability (which, as stated above, is constantly improving through education and experience)?
One of the reasons I so much enjoyed computers as a career is that they're so much more predictable than people. :) Sometimes I find people absolutely baffling -- how they think, what they do, ... Yet computers will never create anything that will take your breath away, the way people can. Because people do what people do, which includes flashes of insight and brilliance along with the behavior that really makes you wonder. You can never really know why another person does what they do; so much is hidden inside them. And, sometimes, even if you know why they're doing what they're doing, there is no intervention you can stage to make them change. I laud the effort and heart you've put into what you do. But you're dealing with some things you can never know and never change. Please don't take on the responsibility for that.
Peace.
rosarugosa
2-17-20, 7:34pm
Steve: I'm sorry to hear that you have been in such a dark place too. You are such a reasonable and helpful voice on the Forum, and I can only imagine how much value you bring to the people who know and love you in real life. So glad that you sound to be through the worst of it. Wishing you well.
I am just coming off a year of counseling over a family situation (and some external issues) that, at a couple of points, had me thinking seriously of checking out permanently because it seemed easier than continuing to fight (wasn't sure I was going to write that.) I was Mr. Fixit -- and things weren't getting fixed.
As a surviving family member of a brother who elected to die by suicide, may I congratulate you on overcoming that demon and choosing life. I hope the pain has been worth surviving.
Teacher Terry
2-17-20, 9:16pm
So glad Steve that you got help and are doing better. Life can be hard. I know 3 people that have lost children and still were able to go on but it was tough.
Chicken lady
2-17-20, 9:26pm
Steve, I’m glad you are alive. I am also glad you are doing better.
Thank you to the people who chose not to diagnose me with a mental disorder (and even better, prescribe medication) based on their unqualified assessment of posts that explore only one part of my life. I’m pretty sure I’m not depressed - I mean, I’m seasonal, so I’m a little depressed, but it’s mid February, so that is starting to ease up. I’m sad, and angry, for perfectly good reasons. If you don’t think kids in pain should make a person sad and angry, I don’t think we have enough common ground for you to bother weighing in. I am not sad and angry 24/7. Just too much.
mschrisgo2, thank you for your thoughts. My thyroid has actually been checked several times (most recently in connection with the anemia) because my dad has hypothyroidism. Having watched his struggle - I know what a difference it can make and how simple it is to both overlook and fix.
steve, I do try to give myself credit.
i ruminate and obsess on the failures because I want to learn from them. In pottery, I would go to friends or teachers at the professional studio.
so my biggest take away from this thread is the message many of you keep trying to tell me that if I keep doing what I’m doing, I’ll keep getting what I’m getting. But what I’m doing is going to a group of people who don’t know how to help me and don’t seem to understand what I am saying, and with whom I don’t seem to be able to communicate clearly - for help with problems outside of their skill set - because I like them and I feel like I can talk to them and I don’t know or feel comfortable with very many irl adults.
so I am going to keep getting suggestions for therapy and medication and books to change my spiritual outlook and assessments of my mental state.
apparently nobody has books on communicating with and supporting teenagers, or creating positive environments, or activities or ideas to help make their lives better... or thinks that I need them. See, this is where I want to do something different, so that maybe I get something different. Or at least feel like i might. Because if I feel like I am doing something, other than more of what isn’t enough, I probably won’t be sad and angry so much, because I will have removed the sense of complete helplessness.
i can’t throw pots like Ben. I never expect to throw pots like Ben. But when I go to the studio for help, people don’t say “well, you’re unhappy with your work because you think you should be able to throw pots like Ben. You just need to accept that you are never going to throw pots like Ben. I’m sure you throw perfectly good pots. We just need to work on your attitude.” Even if I say “I hate my pots. My shoulder is sore and the wheel is making me miserable and I just want to throw everything I made in the scrap bucket! I wish I could throw pots like Ben.” They laugh and say “me too. Let me see your pot. Have you tried this...”
so, I will stop asking this group to help me change things like my time management (which has gotten better mostly because I quit doing all the things I don’t want to do which I couldn’t even see and which no one asked about since they were busy pointing out that the things actually on my list were too many) and my skill set for repairing the world. Or anything else that relies on self reported data since I am clearly a bad filter, and stick to philosophical topics like salad spinners. Or not, as I don’t have time for that.
ApatheticNoMore
2-17-20, 9:48pm
Is this the type of thing social work training would involve? I don't know if teachers are cross trained and to what degree. It seems though that the school should provide more resources than just leaving it every teacher for themselves. Any therapist has had suicidal clients I'm sure, some maybe minors, ask them how they deal with it, professional to professional.
Teacher Terry
2-17-20, 10:34pm
Everyone that commented on this thread cares and was trying to be helpful and basically you peed in their Cheerios. If you don’t have a depression problem I don’t know who does. But carry on repeating the same behavior and expecting different results.
Steve, I’m glad you are alive. I am also glad you are doing better.
Thank you to the people who chose not to diagnose me with a mental disorder (and even better, prescribe medication) based on their unqualified assessment of posts that explore only one part of my life. I’m pretty sure I’m not depressed -
I want to be clear. I did NOT diagnose you. You used the word.
mschrisgo2
2-18-20, 12:03am
CL, the people who are working most/best/innovating, with troubled teens are in residential treatment field, and counselors. There are a couple of books out written for parents on “how to help your troubled teen without losing your mind.” But you may not want to read any books.
Many suicidal individuals could have been saved through effective treatment - medication and/or talk therapy. One way to help them is to model accepting this type of treatment.
On Intervention some young people are only willing to receive behavioral health help when their parents go for help also.
Admitting psychological problems and seeking help for them is a big step in destigmatizing mental illness and saving lives.
Steve, I am so glad you found a good counselor and are feeling better.
hicken Lady, sorry my post gave offense. I think many people on this board are kind and reach out to those who state they are in pain. It's one of the things I appreciate about this board and about people in general.
I want to comment on those who posted here and tried to help.
I think your kindness is apparent, and I think you make the world better by your kindness.
Chicken Lady, I hope you find what you are looking for.
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 5:56am
Gardnr, I used the word “depression” responding to to nswef. I was not trying to say I am depressed, I was trying to say, a therapist gives people tools to handle depression. What tools would they give me to handle the actual problem? If your neighbor cuts all your bushes down and piles them in your driveway and you get angry, you do not have an anger problem, you have a neighbor problem.
again, my communication style does not work here.
and mschrisgo2, I like books.
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 6:00am
I do understand that people are trying to help, but many of them are trying to help solve a problem I feel they have assigned to me in error and I am not able to make them hear the problem I actually need help with. This is as frustrating online as it is irl, when say - you ask your mom for help with the kids and she comes over and decides to rearrange your house because she thinks that is what you need, and meanwhile, you are still trying to feed a baby and potty train a toddler and now you are bumping into furniture that wasn’t there before.
Sorry CL
Have you considered that most of us and the people in your life you are asking
these questions of: Do not have any more answers then you do?
Therefore we all are just trying to help you find ways to cope with how you feel?
You did say that both you and your Dh thought you were broken that does imply
to most people that a fix is needed and being asked for?
So, I see now that you did not mean a fix for you but, the world
Again, sorry there is no one fix for that.
Steve to you I am glad to hear you were able get past the dark spot!
Admitting to needing help is what got me past it too.
Take care
happystuff
2-18-20, 8:21am
I had been sent a link to the article a long time ago and it took me a while to find it. Hopefully it works:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-perils-of-empathy-1480689513
The part that has stuck with me ever since I read it was this quote by neuroscientists Tania Singer and Olga Klimecki:
"In contrast to empathy, compassion does not mean sharing the suffering of the other: rather, it is characterized by feelings of warmth, concern and care for the other, as well as a strong motivation to improve the other’s well-being. Compassion is feeling for and not feeling with the other.”
Another part of the article stated:
"These studies also revealed practical differences between empathy and compassion. Empathy was difficult and unpleasant—it wore people out. This is consistent with other findings suggesting that vicarious suffering not only leads to bad decision-making but also causes burnout and withdrawal.Compassion training, by contrast, led to better feelings on the part of the meditator and kinder behavior toward others. It has all the benefits of empathy and few of the costs."
Anyway, thought this might help or at least provide some food for thought. Hugs out to you, CL.
I'm sorry, CL, for misinterpreting the problem. The way I see it, you didn't frame your need in terms of suggested books and tools to learn how to deal with suffering teenagers. You framed it as a real emotional emptiness and despair around that part of your life. I think many of us read it that way, whether you intended that to be the message or not. If you are asking for advice on tools on how to help kids with their pain, I retract my advice, because I certainly am not qualified in that area. I'll say again, that I think you are an amazing human being doing the most she can with her heart and her talents. I hope you find tools you need to help you.
CL, what about studying to become an art therapist? I always thought that would be such a cool way to work with families.
rosarugosa
2-18-20, 9:05am
CL: In your initial post, you quoted your DH as saying that you are "broken." You also asked, "what do you do? How do you make it enough? How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?"
As Catherine referenced, if you had asked for resources in dealing with depressed/suicidal teenagers, the conversation would have evolved quite differently.
Anecdote on depression and medication: My sister takes medication for depression. She is an RN in a bone-marrow transplant unit in a major hospital. I don't think I could ever do her job, and I wonder sometimes if she would have the same struggles with depression in a different line of work, i.e. to what extent in the problem within her and to what extent is it a "normal" response to the nature of her job? However, her medication most definitely does not stop her from caring, she is incredibly caring and compassionate. It does make it possible for her to function and provide very real and necessary help for these people, as opposed to curling up in a ball on her couch and crying for them, which really does them no good whatsoever.
deleting for when I have more time to write...
CL: In your initial post, you quoted your DH as saying that you are "broken." You also asked, "what do you do? How do you make it enough? How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?"
As Catherine referenced, if you had asked for resources in dealing with depressed/suicidal teenagers, the conversation would have evolved quite differently.
CL, this is a really good thread to start so thank you for doing so. As I have read the posts that followed, I offer this response.
Most people are caring and most deal with similar pain; at times, it is a huge storm of emotions and deeply troubled thoughts. Fundamentally, it is a normal part of human experience. Some people withdraw and freeze into remoteness as their response.
As the posters have offered their approach to dealing with the pain as they have encountered it as a part of their normal life, they have found a way to cope and shared their caring and support for you.
Triggers of this pain are unique to each as is the approach to find some form of coping. What is common to all is that they have encountered this kind of pain at some point or seen others doing so.
The loss of a child or a spouse or a business or 9/11 or a crime or a car accident etc., etc., are happening every day to millions of people around our wonderful world in some form or other. Some stay in the pain, some struggle with it for a long time until finding some resolution and some take charge. We are each unique and need to find our own pathway through it.
I happen to value my different experiences with emotional and mental anguish as I have grown so much resulting in becoming a wiser, more caring human being. I always try to walk in another's shoes now before judging and watch my speech so much more that I did earlier. I have gained such enormous gratitude for all the incredible amount of good going on around me every day that never gets mentioned in the news.
Please come back when you have found your peace and share with us.
Thank you to the people who chose not to diagnose me with a mental disorder (and even better, prescribe medication) based on their unqualified assessment of posts that explore only one part of my life.
Years ago, when I still worked, the winter weather in Portland took a bad turn. As I waited at my bus stop, an ice storm began in earnest. I waited for an hour with wind-driven ice pellets stinging my face, and when the bus finally arrived, it took the driver two long hours in crazy weather and traffic to make the trip. I arrived at work hours late only to be greeted by an announcement thanking "those who got to work on time." I vowed that I'd never make an extraordinary effort to get to work ever again, and I didn't.
As far as I can tell no one's input was helpful to you, and probably not a few of us will throw up our hands and just choose not to try in the future. For which you will undoubtedly be thankful.
Gardnr, I used the word “depression” responding to to nswef. I was not trying to say I am depressed, I was trying to say, a therapist gives people tools to handle depression. What tools would they give me to handle the actual problem?
Your husband knows you best and you've said how much you love him. His comment should be important enough to you to go seek some guidance. Obviously the tools we all have received from our counselors is useless to you. You have been offered soooo many exploration options and suggestions from the cumulative experiences of our members. And you have determined that NOTHING here is useful to you. Go to a counselor for professional discussion rather than the cumulative wisdom you've been given here. There is no shame in seeking professional help however you sound highly resistant to the idea that it might be exactly what will help you down this path to a healthier self.
I wish you peace.
Good advice so far. Have you considered all the media and being overwhelmed with it?
Sometimes watching the news makes me crazy. Just too frustrating. Makes me think there is no hope for the world.
Unplug for a while. Best wishes.
iris lilies
2-18-20, 11:53am
As far as I can tell no one's input was helpful to you, and probably not a few of us will throw up our hands and just choose not to try in the future. For which you will undoubtedly be thankful.
This made me snort as in it is a funny truth of life.
I am a moderator on another forum and I have to be nice on that forum because it’s Nextdoor, the neighborhood forum where people know me in real life. So yeah, I have to be nice. That is hard for me. :)
Anyway, someone made a post about two homeless people she sees regularly who beg for money, and what can we do about that sad situation, how can we help them, She is sad about them, etc.
Some smart assed person responded with “ well aren't YOU a caring and concerned monkey?!!?” which immediately makes reference in my mind to our greater family, the apes, who pet each other and touch hands to heads and etc to give comfort when they are all upset. It also makes reference to the current game of virtue signaling which I find tiresome.
But I immediately deleted that rude post, tho it made me laugh and I agreed with it,
because I am responsible for maintaining an atmosphere of respectful dialog and etc.
I dont have a specific point here other than the pain of the world is felt and handled differently by us humans, and if we dont all have the same reaction to a specific set of circumstances, that is normal and ok. CL is perfectly within her rights to be annoyed at all of the unhelpful monkey hands that reached out to her. The helpers may be annoyed as well. It is all ok.
Teacher Terry
2-18-20, 12:14pm
IL, if she had asked the specific questions that she has now asked neither her or the other posters who tried to help and got chastised for it would have wasted their valuable time.
ApatheticNoMore
2-18-20, 12:36pm
I can understand how being told to go to therapy or take meds (although I think people were mostly suggesting the former) could be offensive. I don't default to therapy because it's not a solution I've personally found helpful. Other people have. I might truly believe as good a resources (such as books and support groups) are available for free or cheap as spending a fortune on therapy. I don't think there are necessarily better answers in therapy than in a free support group. Others have other experiences.
My criticism of therapy is also that it never addressed the problems I wanted addressed. But those problems have to be in some theoretical possibility addressable as well, one can't demand the impossible.
Going back to original problem, adolescent suicide is indeed very depressing. That the next generation has so little hope should be as important an issue as dealing with other huge crises. I have an acquaintance here who is similarly troubled by it and her "contribution" was to become a CASA volunteer. It has given her an inside view to the troubled lives so many of these young people are dealing with. I don't know what the answer is but to me it is truly a sign of societal/cultural dysfunction.
Here is what is happening in 1 Northwest University: https://broncosports.com/news/2019/9/9/general-boise-state-launches-broncobold.aspx I think it is a fantastic beginning with the 18-23yo population.
High school tool available:
https://www.sprc.org/resources-programs/sos-signs-suicide
https://save.org/for-students/
https://depts.washington.edu/nwbfch/alaska-highschool-suicide-prevention
Google is full of tools and ideas!
I can understand how being told to go to therapy or take meds (although I think people were mostly suggesting the former) could be offensive. I don't default to therapy because it's not a solution I've personally found helpful. Other people have. I might truly believe as good a resources (such as books and support groups) are available for free or cheap as spending a fortune on therapy. I don't think there are necessarily better answers in therapy than in a free support group. Others have other experiences.
My criticism of therapy is also that it never addressed the problems I wanted addressed. But those problems have to be in some theoretical possibility addressable as well, one can't demand the impossible.
I think a good therapist can guide you out of your "reality,' which may be distorted because you are bound to one set of thoughts and feelings that are causing you pain. We tend to put a lot of weight on what we perceive to be the reality of our situation, and until someone gives us a different window, our "reality" will be our framework. I've had therapists who were able to allow me to see that what I perceived to be true were not.
ApatheticNoMore
2-18-20, 2:14pm
I think a good therapist can guide you out of your "reality,' which may be distorted because you are bound to one set of thoughts and feelings that are causing you pain. We tend to put a lot of weight on what we perceive to be the reality of our situation, and until someone gives us a different window, our "reality" will be our framework. I've had therapists who were able to allow me to see that what I perceived to be true were not.
yea I never actually came to share their values and worldview though, heaven knows they tried to make me and at times I tried to make myself. And eventually it was freeing just not to have to police my thoughts anymore, so they are bad thoughts, sinful thoughts, oh sorry that's old school, new school: "irrational thoughts". Well devil may care, I don't!
There may be very specific reasons why it didn't work, most of the therapists I worked with were male, maybe the gender gap was unbridgeable. They were usually older, maybe the generation gap was unbridgeable (ok boomers :laff: ). Yea yea we perceive reality from our vantage right. Noone has a lock on reality on many things, yea sure if we are talking a scientific question there is having more and less evidence of course, but on values and stuff oh boy ...
I think a good therapist can guide you out of your "reality,' which may be distorted because you are bound to one set of thoughts and feelings that are causing you pain. We tend to put a lot of weight on what we perceive to be the reality of our situation, and until someone gives us a different window, our "reality" will be our framework. I've had therapists who were able to allow me to see that what I perceived to be true were not.
This was one place where I was getting stuck. I like to look at the world in an analytical, logical fashion. Always worked for me before. But the world just laughs at that, especially lately. My counselor identified that several situations in my life, unrelated by people or time, actually had similar roots. It was an "aha" moment for me and made it possible for me to realize several truths about the particular family situation I was in, as well as others. It didn't hurt that my counselor also went on and on about self-worth, which I have for a long time discounted. But that fit into this main situation as well. Counseling made a huge difference for me.
I understand others have not had good results with counseling. There are cr2ppy counselors out there. There are impediments to doing the work. My ex-wife had such prior bad experience with counseling that she did not want to go to marriage counseling until I announced that, if we didn't go together, I was going by myself -- and leaving the marriage anyway. She went -- but refused to participate. I guess counseling didn't work for her then, either.
Despite Chicken Lady's protests, those of us who did recommend counseling did it out of caring and positive personal experience. It saddens me that CL seems to have interpreted the (maybe sometimes strong) suggestions as either a mandate or as evidence of not listening to her. But I think many of us have walked down roads similar to the one she's walking down now and having a neutral party to speak with made a big difference. We each make our choices and have to make them in our own time. No offense meant, CL, and I hope you find what you're looking for somewhere.
To the many who commented positively on my pulling back from the brink, thank you! When I started writing to-do lists and figuring out better dates and times for it, I realized I needed more help than I could muster within myself. I went to counseling grudgingly. I do not regret it; nor do my wife or my grandkids or my friends. I never want to see anyone else think that checking out is their only way out. That may not be pertinent to CL's situation, but that grind can get to ya and it creates a reality of its own. Thankfully, those days are behind me.
Don't discount drugs. I understand your experience with the narcotics. I'm not a pharmacist or a medical person at all, but I would think there are drugs out there that can help you without you becoming addicted to them. I understand you want to heal the underlying cause. Sometimes we have to remove some of the pain so we can rest and heal, not just physically, but also mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Please reach out for help. If that doesn't work, reach out again.
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 7:49pm
I lost my post switching pages, so I am sorry, but I will serial post. I have been away from the internet all day.
happystuff, I cannot read the article, and I would like to, because it looks like one of the tools I am looking for. An answer to How do you make it stop hurting and if you don’t, how do you live like a normal person anyway?"
How to still love them, still be open to them, and treat them with compassion without being overloaded by the waves of empathy until I am no good to anyone.
and I led with the pain because the pain is what us driving me to seek answers. The feeling that I am not doing all that I can for these kids because I need more tools. But the solution to that is tools, or new ways to find tools, or perhaps re happystuff, different ways to USE the tools.
Catherine, i said I clearly can not communicate with most of you. That is on me. It is also not the first time. The only way I see to make it the last us to stop talking - speaking of which, Jane and IL, amen.
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 7:52pm
Tybee,
the art therapy idea is interesting. I have a feeling I end up doing some of that informally in my studio class. But while full scale returning to school is not in the cards, seeking out more information on how to incorporate some of that appropriately in proven ways would not be a bad idea.
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 8:09pm
Gardnr,
i skimmed over some of your stuff and will go back. It is good. My problem is that I am prohibited from implementing programs like that or sharing a lot of that information because I am officially unqualified and I spend time with my kids in a professional setting. If anyone is going to make a decision to make information like a suicide hotline available, it would have to be the not-very-good at her job, but slowly (so d@mn slowly) getting better guidance counselor. I am not helpful if I get fired. And no I can’t share the resources with her and suggest she implement them because she is still too insecure and protective of her domain. She will get defensive and offended and then verbally pat me in the head and suggest I stick to art. Been there. Recently.
i May be too analytical and logical, but the idea of someone guiding me out of my reality.... two of my kids studied education. My son was in a class in which his professor said “if your students are not paying attention and connecting with the lesson that is your fault and you need to change the way you are presenting the material.” And my son raised his hand and said “or maybe they can’t engage because their gunshot wound reopened and they are bleeding through their shirt. That happened to my sister (who was student teaching) last week.”
my reality is the gunshot wound. I’m not sure how guiding me to the other frame of reference is going to help the kid who is bleeding.
on a final note, today I asked a woman I love and who loves me and has known me for 22 years and who incidentally recently started medication for depression that has improved her life if she thinks I could possibly be depressed and might benefit from therapy or medication. And she laughed out loud. She said “you are sad because of sad things. And you are angry because you have an overdeveloped sense of righteousness. But you are definitely not depressed.
Gardnr,
i skimmed over some of your stuff and will go back. It is good. My problem is that I am prohibited from implementing programs like that or sharing a lot of that information because I am officially unqualified and I spend time with my kids in a professional setting. If anyone is going to make a decision to make information like a suicide hotline available, it would have to be the not-very-good at her job, but slowly (so d@mn slowly) getting better guidance counselor. I am not helpful if I get fired. And no I can’t share the resources with her and suggest she implement them because she is still too insecure and protective of her domain. She will get defensive and offended and then verbally pat me in the head and suggest I stick to art. Been there. Recently.
I would most definitely be making up those poster type pages announcing the resources available, with the tear off tags with phone numbers. Discreetly post in bathrooms and everywhere else a thumbtack works. It doesn't take a counseling education to post a piece of paper. That way you are in no way providing verbal information/guidance to anyone. An interested party has to get it for themselves.
Let it be known that I have pulled my head back and am no longer sticking my neck out. 😄
ApatheticNoMore
2-18-20, 9:31pm
But I feel terribly guilty if I want to discuss salad spinners, or instant pots or anchovies or something, even if I have time off and am not doing a darn thing (and all I really gotta do is live and die (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfDeNhEPWuw)).
I rather like talking philosophy (whether or not it involves salad spinners). Other than that much information is online, as they said back in the day google (bing, duckduckgo) is your friend! (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Google%20is%20your%20friend)
Chicken lady
2-18-20, 9:39pm
ANM, you go ahead and rock out with the salad spinners. I won’t harsh your bliss.
rosarugosa
2-19-20, 5:55am
CL: I am always amazed at how difficult effective communication can be. When DH & I communicate poorly, I wonder what hope there can be for the rest of the world since we have been a happily bonded pair since we were children. In any event, just because it's difficult doesn't mean it isn't worth doing.
Steve - Add me to the list of people who are very happy that you made it out of the dark place. I'm grateful that you are alive on this planet. You make it a better place. And I'm sorry that you were ever in that place to begin with. The book that I have found most helpful in coming to a place of acceptance is When Things Fall Apart: Heart Advice for Difficult Times by Pema Chödrön. Of course, I also believe that when we're ready, the teacher shows up in one form or another. You were ready and allowed the teacher in. I wish you continued peace and happiness.
Your post made me think of the saying about comparing our insides to other people's outsides. I never would have thought that you were in that place and in that amount of pain. You've always struck me as a very happy and contented person. More and more I find that getting to know others challenges my perceptions and allows a connectedness that is not possible when we are closed off. Thank you for sharing your struggle. I hope that we can lessen your burden, even if just a little bit, and provide you a sense of connection, even if it's from afar.
Thank you, Geila. I thought long and hard about writing what I did. Not the kind of thing one broadcasts from rooftops. But it seemed appropriate. At least my post seems to have served a broader purpose here.
I have long believed pain is not a stopping place. I have difficulty understanding why anyone would want to remain there. Of course, there's recognizing that one is stuck -- and that can be subject to interpretation. I denied being stuck for a long time. Some might have caught on to that faster than I did; others might have needed even longer. People; they're just hard to figure out.
iris lilies
2-19-20, 4:04pm
Steve, Imdont especially like computers any more, they annoy me too often.
But the humans, they are impossible.
Dogs—that’s the ticket. And cats.
Also so glad you are here Steve. Your absence would be a big loss.
happystuff
2-20-20, 7:46am
Thanks so much for sharing, Steve. So glad you are here as well.
When I think I am not doing enough or doing things "right" or helping as much as I can, etc. etc. etc. I try to remember to just go back to basics - smile as much as possible, be nice, and be kind. These three things are chosen behaviors and are ALWAYS possible, and if I can get through a whole day doing those three things, it gives me hope.
Sad Eyed Lady
2-20-20, 10:27am
Steve, I was a fan of the old T.V. show M.A.S.H. and still watch it in reruns on an oldies channel. When I finally heard the words to the opening theme song I was, shocked is not the right word, but startled maybe to hear "suicide is painless, it brings on many changes. And, I can take or leave it if I please.". Suicide is NOT painless for the families and friends who are left with the pain forever. My husband came from a family where suicide was way too commonplace. I am talking his father, 2 uncles and 2 brothers. At the minimum. There may have been a niece also. So I have seen the devastation, questions, and overwhelming pain that is left in the aftermath. When my husband passed away suddenly of an apparent massive heart attack, one of my first thoughts was "at least I won't have to see him go through what his brothers went through". And, they were good, functioning members of society. Not some hopeless derelict who gives up on life. But they did, they had too in their minds. I am so happy Steve that you got help and didn't give up.
CL I have no answers. I know the world is a very depressing and ugly place at times and I guess my way of dealing with it is hiding my head in the sand too much. I seldom watch the news. On facebook, I scroll by things that "hurt my heart" and if I do see/read something terribly bad, it haunts me for a long time. I have a friend who also is a potter and we were discussing an issue one day where I was wanting to do something, do more, and she very gently said "you do what you can". I recall those words in different situations. I do what I can.
CL, I have delayed my response to you, because I don't want to come off like I know all the answers--I don't, and can't presume to know your heart. But I have been and am currently being treated for depression, and have been close to ending my life, too. Thanks to my husband and sister, I got immediate help, and discovered I can withstand and move past the pain I didn't want to deal with anymore. I've had some therapy, but mostly read pertinent books to help my healing along with medication.
I would only like to encourage you...to delay any urge. Stay with your thoughts and feelings for one more day, then the next day, commit to one more day. You don't have to solve every problem. Just focus on getting through the day. Every day.
Write on your good days; list the good things you have done and how you helped someone else. You can't solve the world's problems, but even to help one is a great victory. Having victories to look at might help you on dark days. Perhaps start a gratitude list.
You have no idea how you impact people. None of us do. We can help someone by simply smiling, or doing some random thing like saying hello....like you actually "see" them.
I see you...I can imagine you see so much pain every day and you're taking it on. It's okay ....but find a way to carry on. There are still good things to live for.
Chicken lady
2-20-20, 12:47pm
Oh KayLR,
I am not, and have never been and cannot imagine being suicidal! Death in general pisses me off. My version of “checking out” is streaming videos with no non-entertainment value and a little too much alcohol - not a lot too much, I’m not a fan of hangovers either.
i just get exhausted and overwhelmed and angry at my lack of effectiveness.
I'm glad to hear that, CL. Still...you seem depressed. I still want to encourage you! Don't discount your effectiveness. You can't know how effective you are for any one person.
A philosophy handed down in my family is Scarlett O'Hara's "I'll think about it tomorrow." Saves me a lot of pointless hand-wringing and rumination.
Just going to throw this out there for anyone who could use it. It comes from the Talmud, a central text in Judaism (though what it states is not tied to any particular religion):
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world's grief. Do justly now. Love mercy now. Walk humbly now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Just going to throw this out there for anyone who could use it. It comes from the Talmud, a central text in Judaism (though what it states is not tied to any particular religion):
Excellent!
Very beautiful, Steve, thank you.
Chicken lady
2-20-20, 7:17pm
Steve, I like that too.
i am sorry people think I am depressed. I have no idea what to do about that. It appears to be like answering the question “yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?”
catherine
2-20-20, 10:38pm
Steve, I like that too.
i am sorry people think I am depressed. I have no idea what to do about that. It appears to be like answering the question “yes or no, have you stopped beating your wife?”
OK, CL... I take you at your word. I'm starting to think you may be more like Cervantes/Don Quixote... at least the words in the soliloquy below are similar to the words you've expressed about life... Even if you hate Broadway musicals (this is from Man of LaMancha) bear with it for just 2 minutes. I get chills every time I see it. "Maddest of all... to see life as it is, and not as it should be."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaTFsz0h9UA
Teacher Terry
2-20-20, 11:57pm
I am perplexed. You are not a drama queen at all but the initial post was very dark. If you aren’t depressed I definitely don’t want to be your kind of happy.
Does anybody here watch “new Amsterdam“ on Hulu? The episode called Sabbath (season two episode 14) is really good. One of the storylines is a young boy who is gifted and Latino. He doesn’t want to think of anything or anyone he knows as racist because he wants to think well of them, but the stress and shame of the unrecognized micro-aggressions he feels causes high cortisol levels, which In turn caused stomach tumors which had to be removed. There’s a line at the end where the psychologist tells him that we can’t fix the darkness in the world, but that if we can name our feelings then we can find treatment for them.
Chicken lady
2-21-20, 5:44am
I watched it, but the sound didn’t work, so I turned the subtitles on. *I* find that very dark. But I suppose I accept life as it is in the sense that I affirm that it is so, but I do not accept life as it is in the sense that I am willing to settle for what is. I’m more of an ant-rubber tree plant type. Except I’m an ant who says “well, this probably isn’t going to work.” And then does it anyway.
TT, there is a difference between depression and sadness. Even deep and lasting sadness. You can be happy and sad at the same time too. I would not want to be any kind of happy that was based in denial.
yesterday I had a student who I know is struggling with some home stuff and who normally has excellent personal hygiene arrive very unshowered. They said they had to leave early, and when the other kids, who like them very much, asked why, they said “for reasons. To do stuff.” Which was very out of character for them. I picked up with an airy “people to see, places to go, things to do...” and transitioned to the lesson. I have already let this student know that I understand that their situation will affect their work and I am happy to work with them and to please let me know if they need anything. So, all could think to do was send them a quick note last night about what they missed with a small bit of humor in it. I got back “LOL. Good to know.” So for that moment, I was happy.
I am still sad about their struggle, but it doesn’t mean we can’t laugh together. That I don’t enjoy their company and our interactions. I cry at home a lot because the momentary positives are over and I know the suckiness remains. And then I am drained and I sleep. When I have another thing to do - like the note - I do that instead of crying. Crying is not useful, so I “save” it for when I don’t feel I can be useful.
pushing on the rubber tree “gets me out of bed in the morning”. *Because* I find it’s location unbearable. If I believed it was ok to just settle for the world as it is, *Then* I would probably become depressed. Then I would be living in the man of lamancha’s world of despair.
my initial post is dark because it is a postcard from a visit there. - this is bad and right now I see nowhere to push, send lawyers guns and money.....
I watched it, but the sound didn’t work, so I turned the subtitles on. *I* find that very dark. But I suppose I accept life as it is in the sense that I affirm that it is so, but I do not accept life as it is in the sense that I am willing to settle for what is. I’m more of an ant-rubber tree plant type. Except I’m an ant who says “well, this probably isn’t going to work.” And then does it anyway.
TT, there is a difference between depression and sadness. Even deep and lasting sadness. You can be happy and sad at the same time too. I would not want to be any kind of happy that was based in denial.
yesterday I had a student who I know is struggling with some home stuff and who normally has excellent personal hygiene arrive very unshowered. They said they had to leave early, and when the other kids, who like them very much, asked why, they said “for reasons. To do stuff.” Which was very out of character for them. I picked up with an airy “people to see, places to go, things to do...” and transitioned to the lesson. I have already let this student know that I understand that their situation will affect their work and I am happy to work with them and to please let me know if they need anything. So, all could think to do was send them a quick note last night about what they missed with a small bit of humor in it. I got back “LOL. Good to know.” So for that moment, I was happy.
I am still sad about their struggle, but it doesn’t mean we can’t laugh together. That I don’t enjoy their company and our interactions. I cry at home a lot because the momentary positives are over and I know the suckiness remains. And then I am drained and I sleep. When I have another thing to do - like the note - I do that instead of crying. Crying is not useful, so I “save” it for when I don’t feel I can be useful.
pushing on the rubber tree “gets me out of bed in the morning”. *Because* I find it’s location unbearable. If I believed it was ok to just settle for the world as it is, *Then* I would probably become depressed. Then I would be living in the man of lamancha’s world of despair.
my initial post is dark because it is a postcard from a visit there. - this is bad and right now I see nowhere to push, send lawyers guns and money.....
CL, when I read your initial post I thought hard about whether to respond. I felt a responsibility to you as a member of our shared community, as though you were calling for our help. It was like driving by someone who had driven off the side of the road into a snowbank-- very common where I live this time of year, thus the best metaphor I can think of. It is a shared community responsibility--someone needs to stop for that person. So I stopped, tried to share what I had felt and what I had done to feel better, the way you would offer a tow back onto the road if you could.
So it is odd to have you using the old "have you stopped beating your wife yet" metaphor. Really odd, and it feels pretty aggressive, really. So that is why I am giving your the snowbank metaphor, so that you can see what I perceived and what I tried to do by posting. It was not to trap you into a snowbank, or to comment on your driving, or anything like that.
I wish you all the peace in the world and all the happiness you can find, doing what you think best. But I won't comment anymore on your situation, because I don't understand where you are coming from, and I think the misunderstanding is mutual, and the last thing I want to do is make someone feel worse, or attacked.
Chicken lady
2-21-20, 8:03am
Tybee, I don’t feel attacked, I feel frustrated. You can’t give a meaningful answer to the question because it doesn’t allow for the possibility that you never beat your wife to begin with. I feel like there are people who can’t (I choose can’t instead if won’t deliberately) allow for the possibility that I am simply not depressed.
I’m off the road, you see ice, but I stopped to shut my door properly and it’s so cold that my engine won’t restart. I don’t need a tow. I need jumper cables.
iris lilies
2-21-20, 9:12am
Tybee, I don’t feel attacked, I feel frustrated. You can’t give a meaningful answer to the question because it doesn’t allow for the possibility that you never beat your wife to begin with. I feel like there are people who can’t (I choose can’t instead if won’t deliberately) allow for the possibility that I am simply not depressed.
I’m off the road, you see ice, but I stopped to shut my door properly and it’s so cold that my engine won’t restart. I don’t need a tow. I need jumper cables.
CL, you are in a place where your emotional state impacts the contentment in your life. You don’t have to call that depression if you don’t want to, and it may not be clinical depression, I have no idea.
But if you truly just want tools to deal with a depressed teens in your life, why come to this place for those tools? That doesn’t make logical sense to me and as many have suggested, there are professional sources all over the Internet, books etc. that give guidance on this topic.
You do come here to talk about your life, as we all do. But so many of your posts lead with your mental health where you tell us you are low energy, you are broken, your deep sadness is ongoing. This is an ongoing pattern in your posts.
It’s only reasonable and logical, since you are into logic, that people here respond to the main idea you’re putting forth—Your mental state is of concern to you.
I think that your mental health would benefit with the right therapeutic guidance in helping you change some of your thinking patterns as well as hands-on tools for you to use in your daily life with teens. Both of those are probably important but because you reject number one and because this website doesn’t give you authoritative tools for number two, not much can be done here.I don’t have jumper cables in my car, so I’ll just have to drive on by and wave at you as I go.
Does anybody here watch “new Amsterdam“ on Hulu? The episode called Sabbath (season two episode 14) is really good. One of the storylines is a young boy who is gifted and Latino. He doesn’t want to think of anything or anyone he knows as racist because he wants to think well of them, but the stress and shame of the unrecognized micro-aggressions he feels causes high cortisol levels, which In turn caused stomach tumors which had to be removed. There’s a line at the end where the psychologist tells him that we can’t fix the darkness in the world, but that if we can name our feelings then we can find treatment for them.
I watch it! It was a wonderful episode and this is a very REAL physical problem. I love the psychologist character.
I was at the doctor's office the other day and saw a plaque on the checkout desk which has stuck with me as I wrestle with internal struggles.
You have three choices to deal with a situation that bothers you: accept it, change it or leave it.
CL, I don't recall your line of work specifically but it sounds like it is not good for your "soul". Much like a social worker who can no longer take the daily misery of trying to help abused children as my daughter once did.
She is so much more at peace since leaving that profession.
Chicken lady
2-21-20, 12:37pm
I choose B.
actually, most days my job feeds my soul more than anything else in my life. Not because my life is barren, because my job is rich.
IL. You have a good point about my posts here. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my reasons for making those posts are poor, it has taken me this long to come to that realization, and I will not do it any more.
When I graduated, a counselor dangled a social worker position in front of me. After I stopped gasping from laughter (OK, some hyperbole there), I realized what torture that job would be. Not only because I'm the farthest thing from a "people person," but because I'd be alternately wanting to slap the crap out of people who repeatedly messed up their own (and others') lives and resisting the impulse to sob uncontrollably with those who were victims of circumstance. I did much better with gadgets...
Teacher Terry
2-21-20, 12:59pm
I changed my career from a social worker with abused children to testing adults with disabilities to help them get back to work. The first job was literally killing my soul.
iris lilies
2-21-20, 1:27pm
I choose B.
actually, most days my job feeds my soul more than anything else in my life. Not because my life is barren, because my job is rich.
IL. You have a good point about my posts here. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, my reasons for making those posts are poor, it has taken me this long to come to that realization, and I will not do it any more.
And, please consider what I see as a bigger point: perhaps you NEED an outlet to talk about your pain. The group here is no use yet your pain gives some of them pain. That is fine, we are strong, but what about your immediate circle of family and friends? Do they also suffer your pain while having none of the tools you say you need?
You say you don’t want to artificially lessen your pain at the state of the world. Ok, fine, it is your life and your choice, but what about them?
see, to me, this is another reason to develop an effective therapeutic relationship with a professional. It relieves those around you from ineffectively “helping” you and being frustrated and hurt in the process. Those therapists are PAID to take that abuse, haha.
Teacher Terry
2-21-20, 3:51pm
IL, all excellent points. I also think it’s hard on her husband.
Chicken lady
2-21-20, 4:07pm
today was joy.
and the joy is well worth it. I can find pain anywhere. It’s plentiful.
happystuff
2-21-20, 5:19pm
today was joy.
and the joy is well worth it. I can find pain anywhere. It’s plentiful.
You can find joy anywhere as well. It, too, is plentiful. I guess it is the old question "Do you see the glass as half full or half empty?".
Chicken lady
2-21-20, 5:45pm
In my household we have an engineer “50% too much glass.” And a mom “who left this glass here?”
happystuff
2-21-20, 8:25pm
In my household we have an engineer “50% too much glass.” And a mom “who left this glass here?”
LOL. Cute.
You can find joy anywhere as well. It, too, is plentiful. I guess it is the old question "Do you see the glass as half full or half empty?".
I had a bit of a "spiritual awakening" in high school, because my childhood was so rough and joyless. But when I was 12 and my alcoholic father left, my mother remarried and we started having a normal family life, for me it was like waking up feeling well after a long, painful illness--it was that kind of joy. I remember writing in my diary about all the things I loved about life "I even love hating homework because hate is a part of life and I love life!" So in order to embrace life, we have to embrace all sides if it. It's not an either/or.
I had a bit of a "spiritual awakening" in high school, because my childhood was so rough and joyless. But when I was 12 and my alcoholic father left, my mother remarried and we started having a normal family life. For me it was like waking up feeling well after a long, painful illness--it was that kind of joy. I remember writing in my diary about all the things I loved about life "I even love hating homework because hate is a part of life and I love life!" So in order to embrace life, we have to embrace all sides if it. It's not an either/or.
Oh so true. Thursday a friend of mine and her husband learned that his abdomen is full of cancer. No surgery for the primary colon cancer. No treatment to cure it. They have opted to take each moment life gives them together for the remainder of his days. To embrace their love, the joy they can make together. They've invited all their children to come when and as often as they can fit it into their own lives without expectations. She has already expressed to him, that she wouldn't trade the life they've had together, including the cancer, for any other life in the world.
I so support them in this outlook. I had shared with her that even just 5d before Mom died, we had laughter. The memories we made while I cared for Mom as she was moving closer to death, are what I hold with me. Death was a moment-a painful moment, but the life we made together? Priceless. Her attitude was everything.
The same was true when Dad was dying. Although I was just 33yo and far too young to bury him, we had many wonderful family meals and I have a favorite photo of Mom's birthday dinner where everyone is laughing, including Dad. Really? This man is dying? No stranger would know that.
Life IS what we make it. We can be joyous. It is a choice. We can make a difference for this one and rejoice. Yes, it really is that simple.
I am only 58yo. I will ever be grateful to have learned this from my Dad when I was just 33yo. That carried into my career as a RN. I know I made a difference.
"Life IS what we make it. We can be joyous. It is a choice. We can make a difference for this one and rejoice. Yes, it really is that simple."
That sounds like Viktor Frankl's philosophy--that you can take any circumstance, no matter how daunting, and turn it to your advantage, as he did in the German concentration camps.
"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." --Viktor E. Frankl
"Life IS what we make it. We can be joyous. It is a choice. We can make a difference for this one and rejoice. Yes, it really is that simple."
That sounds like Viktor Frankl's philosophy--that you can take any circumstance, no matter how daunting, and turn it to your advantage, as he did in the German concentration camps.
"Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of human freedoms - to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." --Viktor E. Frankl
I did read him when I was in my 20s. Perhaps that era is when Dad and Mom got their attitude. They survived WW2 near Rotterdam-they were adults already but didn't marry until '48. It was horrid.
Teacher Terry
2-22-20, 1:42pm
That was a great book. The other two great books about attitudes and the holocaust were “Night” and “All But My Life.” I have always been optimistic.
iris lilies
2-22-20, 1:58pm
...
Life IS what we make it. We can be joyous. It is a choice. We can make a difference for this one and rejoice. Yes, it really is that simple.
....
Well, it is simple, but it is also difficult to achieve.
Like reducing diets, you know? It’s a simple “calories in calories out” equation yet why we are fat?
My own approach to life is that I am almost always content, often happy, once in a while joyous. I don’t take any particular credit for that mindset, it is a likely marriage of nature and nurture. My genes predispose me to brain chemistry for being on an even keel. My parents were thus, my brother is, we don’t have mental illness or substance abuse in our near relatives. My upbringing was without drama. These are the building blocks of a contented mindset. Not everyone has those.
iris lilies
2-22-20, 2:03pm
That was a great book. The other two great books about attitudes and the holocaust were “Night” and “All But My Life.” I have always been optimistic.
My copy of Man’s Search for Meaning by Frankl was one of a small number of books I moved to New Mexico with me for my first professional job. The library I worked in did not have a copy. I rolled my eyes and sighed at that, and I immediately put in a request to order which was never approved. Double sigh,
So when the nth patron asked about this book, I just brought mine from home and gave it to her. Months later I moved back to the Midwest. Months after that I got an apologetic note from her with my copy returned, forwarded by my prior employer, where she apologized for keeping my copy so long.
But she didn’t know it simply didn’t matter to me, there’s a zillion used copies of Man’s Search for Meaning you can get for cents on the dollar, no problem. It’s an important book. I should go see if that library in New Mexico has a copy to this day, haha.
Geez, what kind of library was that?
KCLS has versions of Man's Search for Meaning in English and Spanish, ebooks, audiobooks. large print, several different versions, etc.
Despite a tendency toward mild depression (hypothyroidism), and an extended family history of crippling mental disorders and substance abuse, I dodged a bullet. My parents weren't joyful, but neither were they substance abusers. I'm happy/content enough most of the time, but I understand depression--it can suck you under.
iris lilies
2-22-20, 4:21pm
Geez, what kind of library was that?
KCLS has versions of Man's Search for Meaning in English and Spanish, ebooks, audiobooks. large print, several different versions, etc.
Despite a tendency toward mild depression (hypothyroidism), and an extended family history of crippling mental disorders and substance abuse, I dodged a bullet. My parents weren't joyful, but neither were they substance abusers. I'm happy/content enough most of the time, but I understand depression--it can suck you under.
It is the kind of library that STILL doesn’t have it. Unbelievable.
I just checked their catalog of holdings.
It does show Man’s Search for Ultimate Meaning by Frankle as a ebook, but I do think that is an entirely different work, not an updated and revised version of Man’s Search.
But that said, there’s no way you can compare King county to Branigan ibrary because there’s millions of dollars in difference of acquisitions budget.
It is the kind of library that STILL doesn’t have it. Unbelievable.
...
But that said, there’s no way you can compare King county to break in library because there’s about millions of dollars in difference of acquisitions budget.
I'm very proud to live in an area with a world-class library system whose every bond is overwhelmingly approved. And to have worked for said system.
iris lilies
2-22-20, 4:53pm
I'm very proud to live in an area with a world-class library system whose every bond is overwhelmingly approved. And to have worked for said system.
Median income Seattle $93,000
Median income Las Cruces $40,000
Plus a much smaller population base, much much smaller in Las Cruces. If you’re attempting to make a comparison, it’s apples and oranges.
Better comparisons to Las Cruces are university towns across the country that are similar population. When I left there I interviewed in midwestern towns, some university towns, with better library funding. New Mexico is Poor, one of the poorest states in our United States. I’m not sure I would burden that populace with very high taxes for public services. I remember having a couple conversations with library users who moved from the East Coast to Las Cruces because it was cheap and warmer. Then they were surprised because public services were not up to their snuff. Hello disconnect much?
King County Library System doesn't cover Seattle, oddly enough. They have their own library system. King County's median income is probably higher though.
Even though Las Cruces is smaller and poorer, Man's Search for Meaning was a classic in its time.
happystuff
2-24-20, 7:00am
I had a bit of a "spiritual awakening" in high school, because my childhood was so rough and joyless. But when I was 12 and my alcoholic father left, my mother remarried and we started having a normal family life, for me it was like waking up feeling well after a long, painful illness--it was that kind of joy. I remember writing in my diary about all the things I loved about life "I even love hating homework because hate is a part of life and I love life!" So in order to embrace life, we have to embrace all sides if it. It's not an either/or.
I agree that it is not an either/or. But how we look at it is still a choice. You had an "awakening" and you made the choice to star looking at life differently. Yes there is joy and yes there is sadness, and everyone gets to choose if/how/when/etc. they look at it all. :)
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