View Full Version : ? For Those Of You Of A Conservative Nature.....
gimmethesimplelife
4-11-20, 5:21pm
Do you view the $1,200 stimulus money most of us will receive ($2,400 of course for married couples!!!) as welfare, given that it is a handout from the government? What I'm really curious about....
For conservatives that DON'T consider this money a form of welfare, what makes this different? Where is your line on what is considered welfare?
And if Razz reads this, ? For you as a Canadian: Do you consider the CDN $2,000 a month government stimulus as welfare? I know such transfers are viewed differently by many in Canada - what qualifies as being defined as welfare in Canada?
Rob
First of all, I think there should have been means testing for everyone and those of us with no day-to-day financial loss should not receive the stimulus. Granted, that would probably slow down the process so much it would not achieve the desired result for those who truly need the money so maybe this is the right way to go, still...
I expect we will receive the full stimulus amount and prefer to think of it as a partial tax rebate rather than welfare. If it were to morph into a monthly payment with no end in sight, I'd probably change my mind about that.
Welfare: "statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need"
So yes, it's welfare, but that's not the real point. Unless your intent is to use the word "welfare" as a thought-terminating cliche?
Do you view the $1,200 stimulus money most of us will receive ($2,400 of course for married couples!!!) as welfare, given that it is a handout from the government? What I'm really curious about....
For conservatives that DON'T consider this money a form of welfare, what makes this different? Where is your line on what is considered welfare?
And if Razz reads this, ? For you as a Canadian: Do you consider the CDN $2,000 a month government stimulus as welfare? I know such transfers are viewed differently by many in Canada - what qualifies as being defined as welfare in Canada?
Rob
I am a centrist. This is Democratic Socialism and I am simply amazed that the conservative Rs don't see it that way. They want it and they want it NOW! Just makes me laugh quite frankly.
if for some stupid reason we receive a check, we will be giving it directly to a Foodbank so that those in need get it!
Rob, if suddenly a lot of people who have lost their jobs have no money to spend the economy sinks and society breaks down. Desperate and hungry people don't follow society's normal rules.
The funding is a stabilizer for society's overall benefit to manage the impact caused by the Covid19 on citizens, not welfare which is normally obtained by a means test. I understand that some is helping the companies keep going despite limited sales but retaining their employees, some is for those employees laid off and some is loans or grant money. Quite involved.
Rob, if suddenly a lot of people who have lost their jobs have no money to spend the economy sinks and society breaks down. Desperate and hungry people don't follow society's normal rules.
The funding is a stabilizer for society's overall benefit to manage the impact caused by the Covid19 on citizens, not welfare which is normally obtained by a means test. I understand that some is helping the companies keep going despite limited sales but retaining their employees, some is for those employees laid off and some is loans or grant money. Quite involved.
Bingo. I lost my job of 13.5 years due to the plague and all the airline shutdowns, which affected the old company's ability to move air freight, which impacted profits, so people were let go.
iris lilies
4-11-20, 8:35pm
Welfare: "statutory procedure or social effort designed to promote the basic physical and material well-being of people in need"
So yes, it's welfare, but that's not the real point. Unless your intent is to use the word "welfare" as a thought-terminating cliche?
agreed, why does the label of this stim money matter to you or in any thoughtful discussion,Rob?
iris lilies
4-11-20, 8:44pm
Sigh. At our neighborhood Board meeting I learned that our Neighborhood leaders will be applying for some of the stim money that goes to nonprofit organizations. Our major fundraiser of the year is canceled, and our second major fundraiser may be canceled.
So we will not have money to carry out the capital improvements we’ve been planning, that make our neighborhood look chi chi. Things like faaaaaancy street signs and stop signs,. Entry markers of stone and iron. That kind of thing.
personally, I think yuppies should pay for their own public works that are above and beyond the normal street signs, stop signs and etc. Personally I don’t think yuppies really need the stuff although I will admit that the street signs are pretty handsome. But if there is money to be gotten by bellying up to the bar and grabbing the pork, well OK why shouldn’t we.
Our country is going to hell in a handbasket.
gimmethesimplelife
4-11-20, 8:48pm
agreed, why does the label of this stim money matter to you, Rob?It doesn't matter, IL. I'm just curious how conservatives see this, hence this question. It's not like in the zip code you'all have heard enough of by now that I'm going to run across a conservative to ask - but I could and think I will ask my men's rights friends.....they are all conservatives. But there are conservatives here, too, so I thought I would respectfully ask. Rob
iris lilies
4-11-20, 9:59pm
It doesn't matter, IL. I'm just curious how conservatives see this, hence this question. It's not like in the zip code you'all have heard enough of by now that I'm going to run across a conservative to ask - but I could and think I will ask my men's rights friends.....they are all conservatives. But there are conservatives here, too, so I thought I would respectfully ask. Rob
To be clear, to a conservative like me you ask a nonsensical loaded question. If I say it is “welfare” what takeaways from that do you have? What conclusion do you draw?
Asking How conservatives view the stim money is a better question and one you should use if you want to open up discussion with others.
To be clear, to a conservative like me you ask a nonsensical loaded question. If I say it is “welfare” what takeaways from that do you have? What conclusion do you draw?
I have a theory: Liberals, here/there/everywhere, ask questions in this manner in hopes of uncovering hypocrisy which makes them giggle and feel superior. I usually try to disappoint them and possibly think twice before trying again, however it seldom seems to work.
I had a conservative trying to catch me in hypocrisy. He said, "Oh, not my president but I bet you're not going to turn down the stimulus check". Actually I've never said not my president. And Congress gets some credit for the stimulus also.
In general, I see the hypocrisy game as tedious, unproductive and ultimately impossible to win. There being so much of it on all sides (thinking there are only two being one of the more destructive delusions of our time), and the scoring system so subjective.
Preferring limited government is not the same thing as wanting no government at all. Support for a given program is not the same thing as wishing to make us all children of the state. These are not the sorts of arguments that can ever be won with loaded terms, straw men or some magical gotcha moment. At best, they simply serve to confirm biases about what you imagine the other side to think.
KnownRogue
4-12-20, 11:07am
Life is nuanced.
In general, I see the hypocrisy game as tedious, unproductive and ultimately impossible to win. There being so much of it on all sides (thinking there are only two being one of the more destructive delusions of our time), and the scoring system so subjective.
Preferring limited government is not the same thing as wanting no government at all. Support for a given program is not the same thing as wishing to make us all children of the state. These are not the sorts of arguments that can ever be won with loaded terms, straw men or some magical gotcha moment. At best, they simply serve to confirm biases about what you imagine the other side to think.
Idahl, it strikes me that this is the wisest post that I have seen for a long, long, long time on this site. Thank you!
Teacher Terry
4-12-20, 11:21am
IL, I totally agree that fancy street signs, etc are a big waste of money. When I worked for the state and they were short of money everyone had to take one furlough day a month and not get paid. We didn’t get raises for years. Our office furniture was solid oak made by the prisons. It would have lasted forever. They replaced it with built in modular furniture. When people complained they said it was a different funding source and had to be spent. During this time they bought enormous TVs for the conference rooms saying instead of traveling they would be used. That didn’t happen. Ugh!
iris lilies
4-12-20, 11:35am
Fancy streets signs here are stupid if we expect taxpayers to fund them, especially using money from a taxpayer in Billings, Montana to fund. But I do think they are nice, and the entry markers are nicest and consistent with our historic Park architecture.
ugh, I remember giving up my WWII era solid oak desk at my last library job in order to get cheap ugly modern modular furniture. I could have said “no “ to the modular furniture, but I knew I would be making a decision for the person coming after me in that job and so I gave in. But there was zero functionality improvement from the new pieces of furniture.And of course it looks like shit after a decade plus.
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