View Full Version : The ethics of the death penalty
I found the first argument in this article interesting. We don’t punish rape with rape, or assault with assault. But we do sometimes punish murder with murder.
I’m generally against the death penalty. At times I’m swayed a bit to the other side.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/ethics-everyone/202012/whats-wrong-the-death-penalty
happystuff
12-12-20, 10:40pm
So far, thank goodness, I have never been in a position where I have lost a living loved one to murder by another. Right now, I do not believe in the death penalty of a living being. If someone killing a living person is murder, then the death penalty is also murder. I can only hope and pray that my beliefs and faith are never personally tested in this area.
Edited to add: I can already see where this conversation may end up going... sigh.
Teacher Terry
12-13-20, 12:04am
It costs more for all the appeals, etc than to house them for their life. Killing someone is irreversible if a mistake occurs. People of color are convicted and executed much more often than whites.
I get a bit iffy thinking about handing over to the State the power to kill people in cold blood.
rosarugosa
12-13-20, 6:46am
I was very pro death penalty when I was younger, but my position has shifted based largely on the toll it must take on those who have to impose it. TT also raises some good points and concerns.
iris lilies
12-13-20, 8:50am
I was very pro death penalty when I was younger, but my position has shifted based largely on the toll it must take on those who have to impose it. TT also raises some good points and concerns.
But SHOULDNT it “cost more” to the state if the state is doing the solemn act of killing someone?
My current thinking on the death penalty is this, after years not being in favor of it: I’m fine if the death penalty theoretically exists because, there are some monsters too monstrous to live amongst us.I am also fine if no one is found to be that monstrous to deserve it.
catherine
12-13-20, 9:13am
I have been anti-death penalty my whole life. As happystuff said, it might get more complicated if I were to be personally affected by a capital crime, but I do not believe in an eye for an eye. Also, I don't believe the death penalty is a deterrent against crime, and then there are the innocent people that are executed wrongly.
I can see, and agree with the argument that the state has a duty to protect its citizens from those who physically harm others without compunction. However, I don't approve of allowing the state to kill it's citizens whether it's done under the guise of being the ultimate protection from monsters or relieving citizens of the inconvenience of unwanted life.
catherine
12-13-20, 9:56am
I can see, and agree with the argument that the state has a duty to protect its citizens from those who physically harm others without compunction. However, I don't approve of allowing the state to kill it's citizens whether it's done under the guise of being the ultimate protection from monsters or relieving citizens of the inconvenience of unwanted life.
I knew this was coming. ;)
Teacher Terry
12-13-20, 9:57am
I was for it when younger. Now I am totally against it. Especially in light of the fact that we have killed people that later have been proven to be innocent by DNA.
happystuff
12-13-20, 9:58am
Yes, many view those living in prisons as inconveniences and unwanted. My thinking has always been to put more resources and responsibilities to prevent the problem(s) in the first place, thereby minimizing (and, optimistically, eliminating) the problem at the root - things like education, jobs and jobs with living wages, etc.
I can see, and agree with the argument that the state has a duty to protect its citizens from those who physically harm others without compunction. However, I don't approve of allowing the state to kill it's citizens whether it's done under the guise of being the ultimate protection from monsters or relieving citizens of the inconvenience of unwanted life.
The state is making people get abortions?
The state is making people get abortions?Not that I'm aware of, but there is a push on to have the state provide or at least pay for them.
early morning
12-13-20, 10:57am
Like IL, I do believe that there are monsters, who, by their actions, have forfeited the right to live. Still, I would prefer they remain in very secure institutions for life. I'm not for the death penalty, but I am not entirely comfortable with abolishing it, either. I also believe we need to put many more resources into preventing problems, and rehabilitating and helping those who leave prisons, jails, and juvenile facilities with reentry and reintegration into society. I believe a focus on full employment should be a large part of our economic policy. We don't need more rich people, we need more middle-class people, IMHO.
Not that I'm aware of, but there is a push on to have the state provide or at least pay for them.
We allow the state to kill citizens routinely. Why are future citizens more important than current ones? I’m asking on Breona Taylor’s behalf since she couldn’t be here to ask herself.
happystuff
12-13-20, 11:05am
Not that I'm aware of, but there is a push on to have the state provide or at least pay for them.
I can see the cost being placed on both the male and female involved; they created the situation together and should be held responsible to resolve it the same way - together.
We allow the state to kill citizens routinely. Why are future citizens more important than current ones? I’m asking on Breona Taylor’s behalf since she couldn’t be here to ask herself.
We do not allow anyone to kill citizens routinely, we allow everyone to use lethal force when necessary to protect themselves or others from death or serious bodily harm. There is a difference between that and the inference that agents of the state are allowed to routinely execute people.
JaneV2.0
12-13-20, 11:27am
I'm against the death penalty because it's more often than not used against the poor and marginalized among us, and used capriciously. And what if the state gets it wrong? I can't lose sleep over someone who is incontrovertibly proven guilty of a heinous crime, but a lot of gray area exists when it comes to capital punishment. As far as the "sanctity of life" argument--as long as we're still sending soldiers to far away places to kill or be killed--real, living, breathing, existing humans, not clumps of human cells--that doesn't work for me.
rosarugosa
12-13-20, 12:20pm
But SHOULDNT it “cost more” to the state if the state is doing the solemn act of killing someone?
My current thinking on the death penalty is this, after years not being in favor of it: I’m fine if the death penalty theoretically exists because, there are some monsters too monstrous to live amongst us.I am also fine if no one is found to be that monstrous to deserve it.
But is it "the state" paying the cost, or just some modestly compensated corrections officers?
iris lilies
12-13-20, 1:12pm
But is it "the state" paying the cost, or just some modestly compensated corrections officers?
Responding to the idea that Terry put out that it cost more to kill them than it does to house them “the state” pays either way of course. But the state is paying prosecution costs for all the appeals to take place As well as housing the prisoner during the appeal process. It’s all very costly. The state may be paying defense fees sometimes too.
Related, I often wonder why monsters and killers are seen as being OK to live in a prison population where they may prey on those weaker in the prison and also officers. It seems pretty neat and tidy to put them away locked up And let them live just as long as they are living away from us. And I agree they need to be away from us. Sometimes they need to be away from all humans, tho, not just citizens out in society.
We do not allow anyone to kill citizens routinely, we allow everyone to use lethal force when necessary to protect themselves or others from death or serious bodily harm. There is a difference between that and the inference that agents of the state are allowed to routinely execute people.
If the cops felt at risk of death or serious injury from Eric Garner than they probably either need significantly better training or a new line of work. I could go on with plenty of other examples but I realize that you're a "the status quo is awesome except for the number of abortions" kind of guy so there's probably not much point.
happystuff
12-13-20, 1:33pm
I was very pro death penalty when I was younger, but my position has shifted based largely on the toll it must take on those who have to impose it. TT also raises some good points and concerns.
The resulting posts re: "cost more", I was reading as including not just the monetary side, but also "the toll it must take on those who have to impose it". I realize they can be viewed as two different things, but I believe each to be "costs".
Teacher Terry
12-13-20, 1:48pm
There’s definitely the human cost to the people caring out the execution.
.... I realize that you're a "the status quo is awesome except for the number of abortions" kind of guy so there's probably not much point.I think it's more that you prefer to consider me in that manner so that you're not forced to re-consider your hyperbolic position, but that's cool.
I worked for 2 years as the only mental health nurse in a regional jail in Ohio with 600 inmates. They were either pretrial or servings sentences of a year or less. Over 90% we’re just like me, except they made a few stupid choices. Mostly drug charges and nonpayment of child support, etc. The other 10% were kept in more isolated housing, sometimes alone in their cell for 23/24 hours each day. Many of these were in for murder or rape.
I went to all cell blocks as needed, often sitting alone with the inmate in the day room area, and guards were watching through the window. But not at my side. For the most violent, I sometimes talked with them through their door.
I also ran groups for 12 at a time, males and female separately, alone in a classroom. These were for the ones who did not require a private cell 23 hours a day. Topics had to do with substance abuse and mental illness.
I also spent 3 mornings a week doing all the lab draws for the 600. And I decided who saw the psychiatrist for the 8 hours a week that we had one. Most waited 8 weeks to see him. And I sat with the psychiatrist during visits and went him to the private cell area when it was too dangerous to see the inmate in a classroom setting. We decided together who was in need of inpatient psychiatric treatment at the state hospital. We only sent 2-3 inmates there over the 2 years. They had to be naked and starving to go. Otherwise they stayed in jail.
I really needed 2-3 of me to do the job right, but it was just me.
This was known as a good jail. Lots of programs for the inmates, lots of community involvement from churches and shelters. Safe. Focus on recovery. It was in the first group of jails/prisons to be part of the federal PREA program (prison rape elimination act).
There were a few inmates along the way that scared me. But 99% of them I could have run into later at the mall and had a conversation without fear. In small rural areas that often happened with my patients.
So I speak from experience when I say that I see no benefit from capital punishment. I also know that there’s some people who should never live in free society again. I still felt empathy for them. Even when they called me a f**king c**t. And threatened to do disturbing things to me. All through a cell door so no immediate threat, but still. Yet these were the 1%. 99% were fine. But should we kill these 1%? Usually I say no.
But sometimes when I heard exactly what they had done to be there, then I thought maybe yes. Purely from the emotional impact of the evil. But then I realize there’s an argument that we become evil when do that. Because it doesn’t serve a purpose other than revenge. I guess one could argue that they could escape and hurt someone again ...
Interesting facts - fully half of those 600 had a psychiatric diagnosis. 25% of the 600 were on psych meds.
iris lilies
12-13-20, 2:24pm
But is it "the state" paying the cost, or just some modestly compensated corrections officers?
Well, if you mean by cost the emotional toll on individuals and society, yes there is that cost.
And that circles back to my thought there needs to be a cost. A discernible cost. When the state takes someone’s life that’s a big giant ass deal.
happystuff
12-13-20, 2:26pm
When the state takes someone’s life that’s a big giant ass deal.
I agree.
catherine
12-13-20, 3:04pm
Thanks for sharing that, Tammy. It is interesting that half had psychiatric diagnoses.
iris lilies
12-13-20, 3:05pm
I agree.
This then ties into the idea that respect for life, any form and including but not exclusive to human life, needs to be carried out thoughtfully and with intention. That doesn’t mean “ don’t kill ever” .
In Society we don’t do that, but there certainly are pockets of people doing it. Good for them. Here, I’m thinking of the intentional animal killers who hunt judiciously and make sure they use all of the animal that they kill.
People who buy sanitized hamburger in the store is as opposite from that as you can get. No respect for the animal that is dead.
happystuff
12-13-20, 3:15pm
This then ties into the idea that respect for life, any form and including but not exclusive to human life, needs to be carried out thoughtfully and with intention. That doesn’t mean “ don’t kill ever” .
In Society we don’t do that, but there certainly are pockets of people doing it. Good for them. Here, I’m thinking of the intentional animal killers who hunt judiciously and make sure they use all of the animal that they kill.
People who buy sanitized hamburger in the store is as opposite from that as you can get. No respect for the animal that is dead.
Yes. As a practicing Buddhist (and you may not believe what it takes to even be able to call oneself a "practicing Buddhist"!), I do believe ALL life is precious and the taking of any life is nothing to be done lightly or without thought and examining one's motivation to such an act. I'm still learning...
Edited to add: Little tip... the little plastic dosage cups that come on top of the cold medicines and the unrequested credit cards "ready for activation", make great little bug catchers! Just place the cup over the bug and gently slide the credit card underneath to capture bug and release outside. :)
iris lilies
12-13-20, 4:14pm
Yes. As a practicing Buddhist (and you may not believe what it takes to even be able to call oneself a "practicing Buddhist"!), I do believe ALL life is precious and the taking of any life is nothing to be done lightly or without thought and examining one's motivation to such an act. I'm still learning...
Edited to add: Little tip... the little plastic dosage cups that come on top of the cold medicines and the unrequested credit cards "ready for activation", make great little bug catchers! Just place the cup over the bug and gently slide the credit card underneath to capture bug and release outside. :)
I kill mosquitoes and ticks. All others are subject to consideration. Well if I run across a cockroach and I can bring myself to come into contact with it I would kill it. I love spiders and they can live in my house. I don’t mind beatles and other large bugs but I move them outside if they happen to be in the house.Ants are a real problem because the infest our kitchen during the summer yet I love them. Ants are a real dilemma.
But I live in the Midwest where we have winters and that cuts down on the unappreciated insect population.
God knows I grow candy for the mtfkg deer in lilies. God forbid that we shoot them.
I farm. This causes massive quantities of death.
rosarugosa
12-14-20, 7:31am
Iris: I definitely agree with you that execution, if done at all, should not be undertaken lightly.
Tammy: Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experiences and those statistics are a real eye-opener.
My former BIL is a Muslim chaplain at a prison. I asked him once if he found it disturbing/depressing to be working in the midst of what I assume to be some much human despair/anguish. He was a bit surprised at my perspective, and he said he found it more difficult to interact in a compassionate manner with those who have done terrible crimes. I consider myself lucky that I have no direct experience with prisons, on either side of the bars. On the rare occasion that we drive by MCI Concord and see the barbed wire walls, it kind of makes my skin crawl.
All this conversation adds to what I have thought at different times. If people feel strongly that he or she does not want children, birth control should be readily available including 'morning after'.
Having children, prioritizing and meeting their needs for 18 years at least, requires mature and responsible thinking. How often does sex, simply for the sake of personal gratification, lack that type of responsible thinking? Troubled homes and struggling communities need support in the form of birth control. That is so much cheaper than the cost of later incarceration.
That said, what percentage currently in prisons are waiting for years without a trial or even a formal charge leading to despair of any positive future? How does that despair contribute to gang membership and activities especially when the rules are different for different economic levels?
One recent execution was the result of being a teenage gang member many years ago. What benefit did society gain from that execution?
That said, what percentage currently in prisons are waiting for years without a trial or even a formal charge leading to despair of any positive future?
Do you know those percentages? I wasn’t aware that there are people in Western countries being held for years without being charged.
ToomuchStuff
12-14-20, 10:52am
Do you know those percentages? I wasn’t aware that there are people in Western countries being held for years without being charged.
I believe the term is Enemy Combatants.
iris lilies
12-14-20, 10:52am
Do you know those percentages? I wasn’t aware that there are people in Western countries being held for years without being charged.
Yeah, I question that assumption as well. That’s pretty much a scheme of the totalitarian guys.
I believe the term is Enemy Combatants.
I believe in proactive population control for enemy combatants.
catherine
12-14-20, 11:33am
Do you know those percentages? I wasn’t aware that there are people in Western countries being held for years without being charged.
People are held in jail for considerable periods of time--months-- awaiting even arraignment in some cases. My son is a lawyer and he has represented such clients.
People are held in jail for considerable periods of time--months-- awaiting even arraignment in some cases. My son is a lawyer and he has represented such clients.
Months maybe. But years?
I believe in proactive population control for enemy combatants.
If the whistleblower's claims are truthful, apparently some people at ICE do as well.
https://whistleblower.org/in-the-news/northeast-valley-news-former-ice-nurse-alleges-forced-sterilizations-on-detained-female-immigrants-recalling-americas-own-dark-history-of-eugenics-u-s-to-investigate/
Do you know those percentages? I wasn’t aware that there are people in Western countries being held for years without being charged.
@ idahl, TMS and IL A lot has been written about trying to get as many people out of facilities due to covid in 2020. I had a quick look for the article about the length of time individuals are held without success as yet. What I remember was that people with no money for lawyers, no money for bail were in a stuck in no-man's land in prison for extended periods.
https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2020/0324/Justice-during-pandemic-Police-seek-to-protect-public-and-prisoners
LA County Public Defender Ricardo García is continuing to talk with the sheriff’s office about more ways to safely reduce the inmate population and the risk of contagion. And on March 24 the Superior Court of Los Angeles ordered the release of an undisclosed number pre-trial inmates from the county jail.
A significant number of people are being held pretrial, not yet convicted of a crime – approximately 40% of the inmate population in 2016.
catherine
12-14-20, 3:29pm
Months maybe. But years?
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be held in jail wrongly for months.
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to be held in jail wrongly for months.
What Would Edmond Dantès Do?
The pretrial stage could go on for months where I worked. But everyone got a lawyer, free if needed, so lack of representation was not keeping people locked up without a charge or a trial.
I worked for 2 years as the only mental health nurse in a regional jail in Ohio with 600 inmates. They were either pretrial or servings sentences of a year or less. Over 90% we’re just like me, except they made a few stupid choices. Mostly drug charges and nonpayment of child support, etc. The other 10% were kept in more isolated housing, sometimes alone in their cell for 23/24 hours each day. Many of these were in for murder or rape.
I really needed 2-3 of me to do the job right, but it was just me.
So I speak from experience when I say that I see no benefit from capital punishment. I also know that there’s some people who should never live in free society again. I still felt empathy for them. Even when they called me a f**king c**t. And threatened to do disturbing things to me. All through a cell door so no immediate threat, but still. Yet these were the 1%. 99% were fine. But should we kill these 1%? Usually I say no.
.
Tammy, I didn't want to reprint your entire entry, but every line you wrote was important. I am absolutely in awe of the work you did and how thoughtful you are.
I briefly taught in a maximum security prison for men. It was a profound experience for me, one that still leaves me thinking about how we punish, whom we punish/forgive, etc. The last thing a lifer said to me was "don't forget us." I haven't, decades later.
catherine
12-19-20, 9:10am
I just read about a man for whom the Freedom Project secured his release after 12 years in prison... convicted for selling $20 worth of marijuana to a narc. I read into it and he had a couple of prior offenses, but nothing really bad, a burglary and possession of a small amount of cocaine. That was it.
Maybe he was part of the "three strikes, you're out" policy?
I can't believe the injustice. And yes, he's black and poor.
Teacher Terry
12-19-20, 9:35am
When I worked for the state I could have went up 3 pay grades if I was willing to work in a prison. I just couldn’t do it. Being locked in was too anxiety producing. Many people of color have gotten a raw deal. So sad.
JaneV2.0
12-19-20, 11:09am
You have only to learn we have more people locked away than any other nation (We're number one! :laff:) to see that we're doing something wrong, and you only have to see the kind of justice rich people regularly receive to know that our system is heavily weighted in favor of the wealthy and powerful.
"Since 2002, the United States has had the highest incarceration rate in the world. Although prison populations are increasing in some parts of the world, the natural rate of incarceration for countries comparable to the United States tends to stay around 100 prisoners per 100,000 population. The U.S. rate is 500 prisoners per 100,000 residents, or about 1.6 million prisoners in 2010, according to the latest available data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics "(BJS).1 PRB.org
iris lilies
12-19-20, 11:42am
How I love all the pontifications from those of you who live in low crime/no crime areas only with the occasional assault.Not.
As you opine about prison for minor crimes, you might want to consider those of us out here in high crime land consider it a relief when one of the bad actors gets put away for any length of time. Just when they’re off the street for two weeks it is a relief for us.
Here’s what’s going on in my urban neighborhood in the past month: a shoplifter has been arrested for the 85th time at a nearby grocery store. That is not an exaggeration that is an actual number. Last night my car was rifled through because I forgot to lock it. No problem because all they did was toss things around looking for something to steal but there’s never anything to steal. This happens every time I forget to lock it. Every time, so I know somebody’s going down our street checking door handles nightly. Two nights ago someone went downThe street smashing car windows and also building windows. 15 properties were damaged in that assault. In the next-door neighborhood someone is targeting and stealing high end Christmas decorations outdoors. Package thieves are rife and daily there is a video on Nextdoor of someone stealing from their porch. I lost a $100 item around Thanksgiving because we were in Hermann and I wasn’t there to pick up the package.
These actors know that there are no consequences to their activity even if they do get picked up. Police are instructed in Covid times to have minimal interaction. Our city attorney seldom prosecutes anyone and even when she does take a case to court she loses because she’s incompetent.
Tax paying citizens move from the urban core because of these daily assaults on a peaceful life. We don’t move because we’re going to get murdered because frankly that happens mostly to young black men. We are tired of our insurance rates going sky high, and our concerns being ignored because everyone likes to coddle the criminal. Oh my gosh we can’t lock anyone up for a minor crime! Well bullshit. If you could lock that asshole up for two weeks that gives us two weeks of relief from his stupid shenanigans.
frugal-one
12-19-20, 1:09pm
IL... I think I would build a garage or drive a junk car.
I don't live in the same type of neighborhood BUT always put my car in the garage. There have been auto thefts even in low crime areas of late. It definitely is a sign of the times.
happystuff
12-19-20, 1:31pm
As you opine about prison for minor crimes, you might want to consider those of us out here in high crime land consider it a relief when one of the bad actors gets put away for any length of time. Just when they’re off the street for two weeks it is a relief for us.
Well, there is a difference between minor crimes and high crimes. I will have to go back and read the posts again, but I don't believe anyone was "opining" about high crimes; I certainly don't disagree (gotta love double-negatives!) that it would be a relief to have those who commit high crimes serve their sentences.
Well, there is a difference between minor crimes and high crimes. I will have to go back and read the posts again, but I don't believe anyone was "opining" about high crimes; I certainly don't disagree (gotta love double-negatives!) that it would be a relief to have those who commit high crimes serve their sentences.
I may be wrong, but I thought by high-crime IL meant high incidence of crime, and frugal-on meant by low-crime, low incidence, not the severity of the crime itself.
I thought she was talking about a lot of property crime and that she lives in a high crime area, meaning lots of crimes committed.
happystuff
12-19-20, 1:38pm
I may be wrong, but I thought by high-crime IL meant high incidence of crime, and frugal-on meant by low-crime, low incidence, not the severity of the crime itself.
I thought she was talking about a lot of property crime and that she lives in a high crime area, meaning lots of crimes committed.
Ahhh... Okay, I can see that. I was actually taking it to be the severity. Thanks.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 1:41pm
Well, there is a difference between minor crimes and high crimes. I will have to go back and read the posts again, but I don't believe anyone was "opining" about high crimes; I certainly don't disagree (gotta love double-negatives!) that it would be a relief to have those who commit high crimes serve their sentences.
So that you understand, our high crime area is “ high crime” because of the sheer number of crimes that take place.
While my zip code is also high in violent crimes, the crime “rate” that insurance companies look at and realtors steer against is measured largely in police reports, property damage, and sure, the big ones which are crimes against people.
It is a high crime area even tho no one has been murdered in my neighborhood this year. The murders tend to take place two blocks away in public housing.
I live near downtown Phoenix, where homeless people roam and crimes happen. Helicopters circle overhead after dark at least weekly. And yet I disagree with my friend IrisLilies in this one.
It’s because so many incarcerated people are not violent. The vast majority.
Just this week we released a man in one of our eastern states after 20 years. Discovered he did not rape the woman. He was trying to help her when he heard someone else rape her. Police lied about what they saw. Yes of course he is black. Racism continues.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 1:45pm
I live near downtown Phoenix, where homeless people roam and crimes happen. Helicopters circle overhead after dark at least weekly. And yet I disagree with my friend IrisLilies in this one.
It’s because so many incarcerated people are not violent. The vast majority.
Just this week we released a man in one of our eastern states after 20 years. Discovered he did not rape the woman. He was trying to help her when he heard someone else rape her. Police lied about what they saw. Yes of course he is black. Racism continues.
And if you are satisfied with having the car clouters, package thieves, yard theft operators and garage break in artists operate with abandon in your neighborhood, that is fine with me because you don’t live in my neighborhood.
iris lilies
12-19-20, 3:01pm
IL... I think I would build a garage or drive a junk car.
I don't live in the same type of neighborhood BUT always put my car in the garage. There have been auto thefts even in low crime areas of late. It definitely is a sign of the times.
Three of our vehicles are garaged. Mine that’s out on the street is 10+ years old.
Funny stories:
We keep everything behind our 6 foot fence. Once when we put little solar powered lights in the front by the plants they kept disappearing. We realized the homeless were picking them up and using them like little flashlights. We moved the remaining ones to the back.
A year later I answered the door and a confused skinny older lady asked “do you have a flashlight for me?” I said “no”. She looked around and asked again and then wandered off.
I think she was the flashlight thief and her supply had run out.
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