Dave Ramsey

[rosarugosa]

If you had ever asked my opinion on DR, I would have said he wasn't my cup of tea due to the religious angle, but his advice has helped a lot of people get out of debt, and that certainly is a good thing. I was just reading a thread on the MMM Forum about him, and someone linked to this article. It is long but quite interesting, and my updated opinion is that the man is a complete and total ass, and also somewhat dangerous. I'm sharing a link to the article in case anyone else is interested.

https://religionnews.com/2021/01/15/dave-ramsey-is-tired-of-being-called-a-jerk-for-his-stands-on-sex-and-covid/

[catherine]

Wow. I am a Dave Ramsey fan, and I have listened to hundreds of his podcasts, and I've read a couple of his books, I followed his plan for a while, which my helped financial situation a lot, and I firmly believe that for certain people his plan is foolproof. If you follow his Baby Steps, you ARE going to be financially solvent. Also, yes, he has a very no-nonsense approach, which I like. He tells people who are "doing stupid" with their money that they are doing stupid in no uncertain terms. Being an over-analyzer, I appreciate the tight boundaries around his "rules" and his unambiguous stance.

His personality does come through in his radio shows, so I'm disappointed, but not surprised at the level of control and sanctimony he exerts in the workplace. These stories, if true, are a horrible testimony.

He will occasionally wax political on his shows with his ultra-conservative views, but I generally just ignore those rants, because I do find his talks with callers to be highly entertaining.

Thanks for posting. He and Trump appear to have a few personality traits in common.

[Tradd]

All I can said is...evangelicals. They get some really weird ideas about stuff. Big cults of personality.

[beckyliz]

yeah - I read that too. What a jerk.

[bae]

I've always been of the opinion that he was a huckster.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If one is going to fire all employees that have premartial sex they will have .... like maybe one celibate employee left afterward. He's into self-delusion clearly.

[GeorgeParker]

If one is going to fire all employees that have premartial sex they will have .... like maybe one celibate employee left afterward. He's into self-delusion clearly.
Or maybe he's just added an Eleventh Comandment:
Whatsoever thou doest, thou shalt not get caught or thou shalt surely be fired.

[eleighj]

Ramsey's Baby Steps are probably as good as you will find for getting out of debt and getting your financial house in order. Especially if you don't have much knowledge of personal finance. As for the rest of it I would tell then to ignore the rhetoric. As for Evangelicals, I am sure we can find folks who practice Catholicism, Judaism, Islam etc who are just as fanatical in the structure of their business.

[Tybee]

I think the Ramsey Baby Steps are terrific, and he gives a lot of very good advice. Apparently he gives some not so good advice, too, and runs his business in a way that offends many. I think he has contributed a lot to many people and helped them get out of debt and out of despair.

So I think you could like his advice and appreciate his contributions, and disapprove of how he runs his business or how he advises people on who they should sleep with and then. I don't think those two things are inconsistent.

[ToomuchStuff]

Religion is dangerous, LOL.
Having heard him talk on Hobby Lobby and the cake, case, it doesn't surprise me that he wants only zealots around him. I doubt he would want an agnostic, or atheist coming in a taking the baby steps, the way he said he got them from another author and the bible (so that would just make him a better marketer), and then forming something like a Richard Dawkin's get out of debt, program.
Also, as a business owner, doesn't surprise me he is a control freak.
That said, he does do good, consistent with most of his belief's, not so sure about the forgiveness aspect, and based on my prejudice with religious people having extremist views on children/descendants of rape, I am not sure how he would have reacted to non consensual sex or a single person being a surrogate.
Dave and I had a mutual friend. When he passed, Dave once mentioned wanting to have the current replacement one on the air, but it never happened. I expect him being not as religious had something to do with it.

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with Tybee and TMS. Take what’s good and throw out the rest.

[Yppej]

I grew up in a religious community and you absolutely would lose your job at any church owned entity for sex outside of marriage. You could also get in trouble for married sex. For instance, any secondary student who got married was kicked out of the church run school. I think the assumption was if you got married that young it was due to pregnancy from pre-marital sex. But if you made it to college and a pregnancy resulted whichever partner would not get married got kicked out and the one who did want to marry to give the baby a conventional home was allowed to stay. In the cases I knew of the fathers were expelled whereas the mothers stayed and later married someone else.

If you were accused of adultery but there was no proof you were transferred to another out of state position.

[befree]

I really like Dave Ramsey's advice about getting and staying out of debt. This fanaticism in his company is disturbing. And possibly illegal?

[San Onofre Guy]

I'm with the group. Great ideas but some twisted aspects.

I listen to his daily show via podcast, I walk about 5-7 miles a day so this is easy to do. I find most of the stories and efforts that people make to become debt free to be enlightening and uplifting. The organization is also moving towards career advice, how to go to college debt free, and how to deal with anxiety and personal relationships.

I am financially independent now so his show isn't necessarily advice for me, however he does enforce on me something to strive for that you can do three things with money, Spend It, Save It, or Give It Away. I have always been a saver and it takes work for me to both spend and give money. The encouragement for me to spend more and give more is a good thing. Yes, I have given more this past year during the plague.

His Evangelical beliefs are a problem to me as it is a cancer on society. Today's Evangelicals come across as "I've got mine, don't tell me what to do or require me to pay taxes, but because I have my slice of the pie, it is my God given right to tell others how to live. Humbleness is not a trait that many have including Dave who I have heard say "It isn't bragging if you did it".

He is very closed minded about how other people think. His hatred of California and insistence that the State is all messed up and hoards are leaving, "why would anyone move there and buy overpriced real estate". He also says the same of New York City.

Anything associated with the government is bad such as the KGB which is how he refers to the IRS and they power it has on people.

He claims that since government pensions only have a 7% return that when you leave government employment that one should cash in a pension and roll it into an IRA to earn 10-12%. Yes, historically the market has returned that amount. i retired from government employment in 2019. I had a cash out/roll over option. If I had taken that option and earned 12% in an IRA my annual earnings would have been less than half of what I actually receive and my pension goes to my spouse on my death.

The manner in which he handled the Chris Hogan marriage which was mentioned in the article was disturbing. I see why he bent over backwards to help and save the marriage and how hypocritical the entire situation is, Chris Hogan is a cash cow for the company and likely one of the highest paid people as are all of the entertainers in the firm. He mentions often about his great company and how his employees love working there, very Trumpian. I do believe they love working there as many evangelicals working at like minded firms, you just have to drink the kool aid.

I can actually over look much of his Christian bent as I am intellectually honest enough to agree that many of the daily verses read such as "The borrower is slave to the lender" are good verses to be remembered. We have to remember that all faiths have many common beliefs which are good to hear regularly. The closing of the show with glowing praise for his lord and savior I just tune out or because i know the flow of the show i just delete at that point.

I just hope that he recognizes that tax dollars do pay for the nice highways and snowplows that get him to where he is going. One of my favorite memes is the one about Socialist Snowplows

I will close by screaming "I'm Debt Free!!!!!!!"

[rosarugosa]

I will admit that I'm pretty strongly anti-religion, so I rather dislike him on principle, even though I've never actually listened to him directly (although I've read/heard quite a bit about his general themes). So that's a point well-taken to not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[LDAHL]

I always thought that “socialist snowplows” meme was a bit misinformed. In a bygone age, I was the business manager of a county highway department. Those plows weren’t built in state run factories and allocated to us based on a five year plan. We acquired them from private enterprises using a competitive bid process. We had to compete in the labor market to hire people who always had the option of leaving if they could get a better deal elsewhere. Our drivers even dumped their Teamsters local when the law changed to make membership voluntary. We had to compete in the various markets for salt, diesel and other supplies. I think market forces had more to do with clearing the roads than command economy diktats.

When people on the left or right try to praise or damn any given publicly supported activity by simply labeling it as “socialism”, I think it may betray some confusion over what that word means. I don’t think triumphantly proclaiming that roads or libraries are socialist is really very useful in a discussion on the role of government. Nor do I think calling any government program you have a problem with is socialism on par with the ongoing Venezuelan disaster.

[San Onofre Guy]

My understanding that the phrase “socialist snowplow” came from a response to government haters wanting the government to get off our backs and the response was something to the effect of “how do you like those socialist snowplows?” What is interesting is how in many northern New England towns there are private roads which are not plowed by the government. The private snowplows paid for by the owners don’t meet nearly the same standards as the government plows.

My point is that there are many activities that government performs well and the taxpayers clearly get their money’s worth for the service performed.

[catherine]

My understanding that the phrase “socialist snowplow” came from a response to government haters wanting the government to get off our backs and the response was something to the effect of “how do you like those socialist snowplows?” What is interesting is how in many northern New England towns there are private roads which are not plowed by the government. The private snowplows paid for by the owners don’t meet nearly the same standards as the government plows.

My point is that there are many activities that government performs well and the taxpayers clearly get their money’s worth for the service performed.

On this topic, but not on the OP topic, there was a great op-ed by Thomas Friedman in the NYT: "Socialism for the Rich. Capitalism for the Rest." (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/26/opinion/us-capitalism-socialism.html) It speaks about how the fact that the stock market has soared while small businesses and individuals are on the balls of their a$$es is an elephant flying.


"“Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest” — a variation on a theme popularized in the 1960s — happens, Sharma explained in a phone interview, when government intervention does more to stimulate the financial markets than the real economy. So, America’s richest 10 percent, who own more than 80 percent of U.S. stocks, have seen their wealth more than triple in 30 years, while the bottom 50 percent, relying on their day jobs in real markets to survive, had zero gains. Meanwhile, mediocre productivity in the real economy has limited opportunity, choice and income gains for the poor and middle class alike.

The best evidence is the last year: We’re in the middle of a pandemic that has crushed jobs and small businesses — but the stock market is soaring. That’s not right. That’s elephants flying. I always get worried watching elephants fly. It usually doesn’t end well.

[Yppej]

Absolutely we have corporate welfare. Agribusinesses and extractive industries are some of the beneficiaries.

[SteveinMN]

Absolutely we have corporate welfare. Agribusinesses and extractive industries are some of the beneficiaries.
Every industry is a beneficiary. Cities here were tripping over themselves to offer Amazon perks for locating a distribution warehouse within their limits. The giveaways that my city has offered developers show anything but the invisible hand of the market. "Let the free market handle it" has become a euphemism for "not my problem; I've got mine".

[eleighj]

Interesting thread.

I took a look at Ramsey Solutions, formerly the Lampo Group, with the TN Secretary of State’s website and it is a one person show. I am making the presumption that that person is Dave. His marketing plan is very simple, he markets to the Christian Sector, all races and probably all denominations. His home base of operations is Williamson County, TN, it is a conservative Christian area. Is what it is!

As for Ramsey Solutions personnel practices, TN is an “at will state”. In other words, they can pretty much hire or terminate you for any reason, absence things like sexual harassment or threats to harm you. Most labor attorneys I have known will tell you there is very little you can do.

As for Chris Hogan interesting comments in the article. It does not take long to see that he brings a lot of $$$ to the company. He brings a bestselling book that rehashes the baby steps, and his Facebook page “Hogan’s Millionaires” has over 139,000 members all trying to follow the seven baby steps and become millionaires(?). I imagine his ex-wife is getting her piece of the action on that deal and the book royalties. FYI, I took a look at her website and she is very guarded about her divorce. She is an attorney; she knows how to play the game.

For full disclosure, 20 years ago the Methodist Church that we attended at the time asked me to proctor his Financial Peace University course. I had the class focus on the seven baby steps and left the few religious aspects that were in the materials to each individual to study on their own if they wished.

[ApatheticNoMore]

As for Ramsey Solutions personnel practices, TN is an “at will state”. In other words, they can pretty much hire or terminate you for any reason, absence things like sexual harassment or threats to harm you. Most labor attorneys I have known will tell you there is very little you can do.

All states are mostly at will, however regardless you can not fire based on race, religion, sex etc.. And that's Federal law. This is skirting very close to that it seems to me, but I'm not a lawyer.

[Accrual World]

I think Ramsey's advice is great for his target audience - people who are just starting out, made mistakes with debt, and need rules and boundaries set for them.

His advice beyond that is pretty terrible. He's religiously against credit cards and really any forms of debt. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explained that you should almost never use a debit card to those that preach his gospel. So long as you don't carry a balance, credit cards are generally the optimal way to pay for things, with cashback rewards, sign up bonuses, and the fact that credit card companies will work harder to resolve any fraud or theft issues because it's their money taken, not yours.

[eleighj]

I think Ramsey's advice is great for his target audience - people who are just starting out, made mistakes with debt, and need rules and boundaries set for them.

His advice beyond that is pretty terrible. He's religiously against credit cards and really any forms of debt. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explained that you should almost never use a debit card to those that preach his gospel. So long as you don't carry a balance, credit cards are generally the optimal way to pay for things, with cashback rewards, sign up bonuses, and the fact that credit card companies will work harder to resolve any fraud or theft issues because it's their money taken, not yours.

Well said. Debit cards are covered by the Electronic Funds Transfer Act and credit cards are covered by the Fair Credit Reporting Act. Two very different animals.

[ToomuchStuff]

The ONE thing I wish Dave would actually say, is, who does he use for processing?
I know of no electronic payments company, that handles just debit cards, which are all he accepts.

[Tybee]

I think Ramsey's advice is great for his target audience - people who are just starting out, made mistakes with debt, and need rules and boundaries set for them.

His advice beyond that is pretty terrible. He's religiously against credit cards and really any forms of debt. I can't tell you how many times I've had to explained that you should almost never use a debit card to those that preach his gospel. So long as you don't carry a balance, credit cards are generally the optimal way to pay for things, with cashback rewards, sign up bonuses, and the fact that credit card companies will work harder to resolve any fraud or theft issues because it's their money taken, not yours.

But he is talking to people who have problems with credit cards, running up debt they cannot afford to pay back. So I think that on the whole, the danger of using the credit card is for those people far greater than the benefits of using the card. So I agree with him there.

[rosarugosa]

But he is talking to people who have problems with credit cards, running up debt they cannot afford to pay back. So I think that on the whole, the danger of using the credit card is for those people far greater than the benefits of using the card. So I agree with him there.

JD Roth from Get Rich Slowly (who I think is terrific BTW) makes an analogy that credit cards are like the chainsaws of personal finance. They are useful tools in capable hands, with significant potential for disaster in less capable hands.

[catherine]

So long as you don't carry a balance, credit cards are generally the optimal way to pay for things, with cashback rewards, sign up bonuses, and the fact that credit card companies will work harder to resolve any fraud or theft issues because it's their money taken, not yours.


But he is talking to people who have problems with credit cards, running up debt they cannot afford to pay back. So I think that on the whole, the danger of using the credit card is for those people far greater than the benefits of using the card. So I agree with him there.

I agree with Tybee... saying certain people they SHOULD use a credit card is like telling an alcohol they SHOULD drink because it's good for your heart. I also think cash-back rewards are a minor fringe benefit, but not enough to go into debt, especially if you are not the type to pay it back every month, because you'll be spending a whole lot more in interest than getting back in rewards. IMHO, the best benefit of doing credit card transactions is that it puts control in your hands if you wind up with a purchase dispute.