View Full Version : Guy stalking me at public events
How would you, as a single woman, handle a guy, whom you dated for a short time several years ago, who is stalking you at public church events? You were the one who politely ended it with guy over the phone.
Guy doesn't say much, if anything, but always has to sit at your table or as near as possible, stares constantly at you, gets up and follows you when you go to get food/drink.
Guy does this in the presence of his wife (now married one year), sometimes with new baby in tow, also always with his sister and maybe his mother. He NEVER talks to me. The females (sister or wife, mom doesn't speak English) sometimes attempt to talk to me, but I've developed a look that stops them in their tracks.
Guy and his entourage (they travel as a pack) now belong to my old church, that I left 3.5 years ago as it was a very bad fit. I've talked to several male friends from old church, often at these area-wide events, to run interference, but they just laugh. I've tried to sit the closest one down several times to talk about the situation, but he just brushes it off by saying the guy is at all these events.
The stalking has now been going on for over a year. I'm at my wits end. I am at events because I'm either singing (if there is a service) or if it's a speaker, lecture, etc. I'm president of the local denominational group, so my attendance at these events is pretty much expected. When I've been stuck at table with guy and his entourage, there's been no way I've been able to move as by then we're eating and there is no where else to sit, or it's in the midst of a speaker. If I'm standing around talking to someone, the guy is hovering.
I think my physical safety is OK. Once I broke up with the guy, he never again contacted me via phone or email. He was over once for dinner while I was seeing him, but I live at the back of a very maze-like complex, it was after dark, and no names are on our buzzers. I doubt he could find it again if he wanted to.
However, due to something that happened several weeks ago at a big gathering at a close friend's home, where CG and his entourage also were, I now feel I have to do something the next time I'm at an event with this guy and he forces himself into my presence.
My options:
*I either leave - which I'm loathe to do
*I tell him and his entourage they will not be sitting at my table and to go elsewhere - very firmly and in my "resistance is futile" voice.
*I make something of a scene, telling him - with his wife and other relatives there - to leave me alone, to not come around me.
I'm very tempted to give him a piece of the independent American woman's mind he loathed so much. And I won't be nice about it. I've got quite the mouth on me, and I've run out of patience with this guy. My pretty much ignoring them when at my table and such and flat out refusing to talk to them has not done anything. It might be high time to come out swinging, regardless of the fact that it will make a scene.
Needless to say, I'm now staying away from any group events that involve mostly people from my old church, for various reasons that have little to do with CG. The thing several Sundays ago was a once-in-a-lifetime event for one friend, so I went. Wish I'd not gone now.
I'm very creeped out and uncomfortable. And this guy is doing this in front of his family, too. Ugh. That's just bad karma, in any situation.
Any thoughts?
can you not talk to your minister about this and have he or she talk to the fellow?
I have talked to my pastor about the situation several weeks, but I attend a totally different parish from where this guy goes to church. It's a good idea though, one I'd not even thought about. My pastor's not always at these events, although I'll try the next time they're both at the same one - my pastor is very tall and the stalker guy is shorter than my 5'5'!
Otherwise, I don't have the stalker guy's contact info, so I'd have to wait until they were both at the same place.
I'm curious to know why you don't talk to his wife and sister. Where does that get you? I'm not saying that you should talk to them, I'm just not sure what that action gets you. Do you think that would encourage him?
I'm curious to know why you don't talk to his wife and sister. Where does that get you? I'm saying that you should talk to them, I'm just not sure what that action gets you. Do you think that would encourage him?
Yes, I think that would encourage him. Given the fact that I've so far tried to deal with this withOUT causing a scene, my giving the whole lot of them the cold shoulder has been pretty much the only way I could show them their hanging around me is unwanted. But it's pretty obvious that's not working. Or I could talk and not hold back my very sarcastic side. When I don't rope the sarcasm in, I'm pretty sure to offend someone within five or ten minutes. That would be useful in this situation. I don't want the women to get any idea in their heads I want to be friendly. Far from it.
Could it be you are reading more into the circumstances than exists? Sometimes, when relationships end (less than amicable splits), the one on the receiving end of the relationship who was dumped moves forward (after the dust settles) and tries to regain back (to an extent) some form of casual contact with the other again. Could this be the case in your situation Tradd?
ETA: I somewhat misunderstood your post the first time around and had to re-read. I don't know what to think about this guy. I do know he doesn't open his mouth at all around me. Just lurks and stares and slinks around. If he was trying to be friend, I'd think he would say something. But he doesn't.
That is creepy. I think I remember you talking about him before.
I agree with kally and talk to your minister. Or what about the minister from your previous church where 'the guy' is a member? Or if it still doesn't stop, get the two ministers to talk to him together.
You could try talking to 'his' women, but he has probably told them some sort of story. If they try to talk to you, use the same line over and over - short and sweet - "Leave me alone." They will get the hint soon enough. Unless they too are afraid of this loser.
You might also speak with the police. YOu don't feel physically threatened, and he probably hasn't crossed any legal lines, but they might be able to point you in the best direction to go. Or perhaps an attorney who specialized in such things. Perhaps a letter from a lawyer might help. That wouldn't be binding of course, but it might let him know you are willing to take legal action if necessary.
Another thing to do, if you have a digital camera, is to start casually taking pictures of the event (you can turn off the flash if you like and they will still take good pics), especially 'the entourage' so that you can document how often they are close to you. If asked, you can say you were advised to take pictures 'for proof'.
It's all way too odd.
edit: Follow your instincts. There was a book called 'The Gift of Fear' that your story reminds me of. Gavin DeBecker I think was the author. It illustrates how if we don't recognize appropriate fear that we can get ourselves into trouble, and more.
2 suggestions:
Ask your minister to talk with his minister with a clear Cut It Out message - and be specific: You are not welcome to sit at the same table; there will be NO staring, NO talking, NO following; NO CONTACT OF ANY KIND FOR ANY REASON.
If the ministers aren't willing, say it to him yourself, in public and with a friend at your side. You can follow up with a no contact order if you wish.
PS - any boundary violation is not a misreading of a situation - it's inappropriate contact. Period.
Getting the minister from my previous church anywhere involved with this is not an option. That minister has it out for me. They're extremely old school there, and I totally didn't fit in. That's why I left. I was the only person in my five years there who left for any reason other than moving out of the area. I was very involved and so when I left, it made some people sit up and take notice. I've still got a few friends there, but we're careful to not talk about some things. If you weren't married, you were on the fringe at old parish. That minister made it very clear he was only interested in those who were married, preferably young, with lots of kids, SAHM, HAD to homeschool, women working was frowned upon. Needless to say, that is not me.
I have friends who moved away, but then moved back. They tried that church for a few weeks, but were very uncomfortable. The couple suffered from infertility and had adopted one child from overseas. The constant emphasis on having lots of children was extremely painful for them. They ended up at my parish (because they lived closer anyway), but moved away due to jobs. Another couple with a not-meek and quiet wife who had used to attend that church ended up at mine as well. They had moved away and tried to go back when they moved back into the area, but the wife is rather outspoken and the priest couldn't handle it. They're at my parish now and very happy.
Anyway, pastor from previous church didn't like something I'd posted on a church-related blog last year (that had nothing to do with him). He outed me on that site as being president of local denominational organization (something I'd not mentioned), and attacked me viciously on the site, but others came to my defense. He emailed all officers of denominational clergy assoc. in our area and told them to do something about me, and to remove me as president (They're mother organization of my group). That didn't happen, but previous pastor failed to tell them he was going after me publicly and his little stunt cost him the respect of a good number of his peers locally. I was pretty much forced to apologize for the comments by MY pastor (who is one of clergy assoc officers) on the website, but did it in such a way that I only apologized for people being offended, not that I'd actually made the remarks.
My former pastor is a vindictive sort, not that you'd know it when you first met him. He's shown that he's willing to do anything to take me down. Simply because I left the parish and didn't conform to their very narrow version of how they think a woman should be.
ETA: Gina, good idea about the camera. I'm known for taking lots of pictures at local events, so no one thinks twice about it when I have a camera in hand. I tend to shoot sans flash anyway.
Bummer that the minister isn't an ally... sexism shows up in so many forms. Stalkers, ministers who aren't supportive of women being whole people. I'm sorry you're having to deal with this. It's creepy and wrong.
But Tradd, that is why your minister needs to talk with your previous minister; not you. If there is an issue affecting where you are now it needs to be brought up.
Kally, old minister WILL not do anything about it. I can guarantee it.
Things have gotten to the point between me and old pastor that I have to be very careful around ANYONE from that old parish. A very close friend has been ordained and is now the very new asst pastor there. Old pastor has attempted to meddle in my relationship with this fellow and his wife recently and came pretty close to damaging it. At friends' home CG and Co. were hovering around me again. When they left, I told a few long-time friends what had been going on, as friends noticed I was acting strangely with CG & Co. around. It got back to old pastor and he read my friend, the new asst pastor the riot act for me "spreading malicious gossip" in the asst pastor's home. My former pastor did this via email, copying me in (which I didn't receive since former pastor's email has been blocked for some time). But my friend the new asst pastor forwarded it to me - reading me the riot act as well. I made it clear that I will now only see them alone, which is how things had worked out the past few years anyway. The gathering several weeks ago was something that won't be repeated.
My pastor believes my friend's new position as asst pastor is still so new that he has to toe the party line, at least in public and/or to his boss' face - with regards to the enemy - me. We're still friends, but I've definitely distanced myself.
Why not talk to his wife and sister? If they are sitting by you and want to be friends share a little small talk with them? You are at church why give them the stink eye? If not stop visiting your old church, the pastor there has it out for you anyways.
iris lily
6-12-11, 11:57pm
sorry, meant to say that I'm not saying that you should talk to the wife & sister. I edited my post.
Sounds like he's hoping for a reaction and will look to anything that indicates you are having a reaction. So a public dressing-down is likely to satisfy this urge and cause him to escalate. I think maybe you just need to outlast him, and he sounds pretty patient. Or just avoid going to any events where he is likely to be, though that of course puts a crimp in your desires and causes him to "win" in a way. I don't think there's any reason not to talk to wife/kid though, as though they were just someone you didn't know well and were going to talk to. Maybe he has some need to put them at ease around you so sets it up every time so that you're nearby? In any case, it's a tough situation. When someone doesn't follow social norms yet doesn't do anything serious enough to be removed from the situation then it's tough on everyone else who does follow social norms. You may have to violate social norms if you want to avoid the person: if he sits down next to you, then get up and leave. If there's a speaker, pretend your cell phone just went off on vibrate and that you have to step out to take the call (or whatever). Maybe you can alert another friend to the situation at meals and have that friend save you a seat far away. Sit normally and then when the guy & family come sit down, suddenly take your plate to the other table where your friend has been expecting you all the time anyway. If it's after most people are seated there won't be space for weirdo & co to sit so you'll put him in the position of making a scene and looking foolish and odd.
Why not talk to his wife and sister? If they are sitting by you and want to be friends share a little small talk with them? You are at church why give them the stink eye? If not stop visiting your old church, the pastor there has it out for you anyways.
I don't visit old church. Haven't in two years. These are events held sat various churches in my area. The incidents are always during fellowship time afterward the service. Or events where there is a speaker and no service at all.
I don't want to talk to the wife and sister. Period. I didn't like the sister when I was seeing the guy. The wife just sits there and doesn't say anything when her husband is nasty to her. He berates her for not looking after his mother, not getting her food, waiting on her hand and foot. That sort of thing. Mother is able bodied and is well able to get her own drink. Sister has the attitude that you don't question someone in authority - ever. It was made pretty plain to me while I was dating the guy.
The guy is foisting his female relatives on me. Doesn't mean I have to talk to them. They know other people at these events, because I see other people from my old church there.
I would say in a loud, firm voice, "Stop stalking me". If he does it again, "Stop stalking me or I'm going to get a restraining order" and then get one if he does it a third time. You say you are not concerned for your physical safety but as I read it only because he couldn't find your apartment. That means to me if he could find it, you would be afraid. Fear is a valid reason to obtain a restraining order. This is definitely creepy and I would have no tolerance for this type of behavior.
Miss Cellane
6-13-11, 4:56pm
Tradd, I know you don't want to talk to CG at all, or his wife or kid. However, I think by doing that, you are giving him a bit of power over you. In your shoes, I would speak to him every time I saw him, but very briefly. After all, you do know him and you did date him. I'm thinking along the lines of, "Oh, good evening, George. This looks like an interesting speaker tonight. Oops, got to run, I need to speak to Sam over there. Hope you and the family have a nice time!" I have found this to be a useful technique at times.
Clearly, what you have been doing isn't working, so you need to change *something*. Being a bit more pro-active, i.e. going up to him and speaking a few words and then leaving, instead of being re-active and just looking for him and trying to avoid him, might be enough of a sign that you aren't bothered by him anymore to cause a change in his behavior. At least it's worth a try.
You said that you asked men from your old church to help you out and they refused. What about asking men and women from your new church to help run interference? Don't sit down until you know where he's sitting, or until you have enough friends around that you feel safe.
And I'd go to your pastor again. If you are expected to be at these events in your various roles in the church, then your pastor has an obligation to make sure that you are safe. Use the words "hostile environment," "can't feel safe," and "bordering on harassment." Go to your pastor with the expectation that of course he will want to make sure all of his parishioners feel safe in the church environment. Don't ask for help. Ask him what he's going to do about it. I don't know if you want to go so far as to tell him that you are thinking of quitting the choir, but that's an option to make him realize that you are serious about how you feel.
Also contact the police. Ask them if they have any advice on how to handle such a stalker, what you need to document, things you can do to keep yourself safe, etc.
I'm sorry you're having to deal with this and I'm sorry that the people around you can't seem to realize that there's a problem.
IshbelRobertson
6-13-11, 5:10pm
As someone who has abandoned organised religion, can I just say that your church(es) sound weird... Women who HAVE to homeschool? Women who appear to be subservient to pastors?
Just report him to the local police and let them deal with it.
As someone who has abandoned organised religion, can I just say that your church(es) sound weird... Women who HAVE to homeschool? Women who appear to be subservient to pastors?
It's the FORMER church. They are something of a oddbird in a denomination otherwise fairly balanced. There's a few bad apples in every barrel. The issues don't tend to show up until you've been there a while. If you don't agree to certain guidelines on birth control, the pastor won't even marry you! I'm serious. If you wanted to be accepted in the congregation, you followed the equation of: SAHW/SAHM, homeschooling, wife not working, as many babies as possible.
Outspoken single women who hadn't met Mr. Right -for-Her and weren't willing to settle for anyone who showed an interest were on the outs. Heck, even outspoken married women did all the "right" things were still on the outs as they weren't quiet and hadn't "drunk the Kool Aid."
You said that you asked men from your old church to help you out and they refused. What about asking men and women from your new church to help run interference? Don't sit down until you know where he's sitting, or until you have enough friends around that you feel safe.
And I'd go to your pastor again. If you are expected to be at these events in your various roles in the church, then your pastor has an obligation to make sure that you are safe. Use the words "hostile environment," "can't feel safe," and "bordering on harassment." Go to your pastor with the expectation that of course he will want to make sure all of his parishioners feel safe in the church environment. Don't ask for help. Ask him what he's going to do about it. I don't know if you want to go so far as to tell him that you are thinking of quitting the choir, but that's an option to make him realize that you are serious about how you feel.
I'm sorry you're having to deal with this and I'm sorry that the people around you can't seem to realize that there's a problem.
I'm sorry I wasn't clear in my writing. The problem is that the events where I encounter CG are NOT at my congregation. They're at other ones in the area, so my pastor doesn't have any control over events in other congregations. My pastor is concerned and sympathizes with me, but my threatening to quit choir won't make any difference. I know he would be willing to keep an eye on me and be nearby, if I asked, at an event where we both are, if CG tries something again. Others from my parish would also probably be willing to run interference if they are in attendance.
The people I'm around daily - work and the folks at current church (I've been there about 3.5 years, so it's not really the "new" one any longer) - are concerned. It's the folks whom I only occasionally or rarely see that don't think there's a problem.
IshbelRobertson
6-13-11, 6:28pm
Former church?
From many of your earlier posts, I thought they were all (denomination removed at request of OP)Your posts just give me another reason to keep avoiding organised religions!
They all are. when I say church, I also mean local congregation.
Ishbel, would you please remove mention of my denomination from your post? Thanks! I had reasons for not mentioning it myself.
rodeosweetheart
6-13-11, 8:54pm
I'm not sure if my answer will seem wimpy, but you asked what I would do in your situation (a woman in your situation.) In your situation, I would talk to my pastor and explain why I would not be attending any more inter-church functions with stalker, and ask that the choir stop performing at such until stalker was dissuaded to stay away from me. If he would not keep choir from performing anyway, I would remove myself from the church, since it seems that the first church is extremely sexist and abusive towards women,a nd if the second church does not protect its members from the first church, then I would not feel it had my best interests at heart. I would certainly not engage the "entourage" of stalker in any way as I would think that would feed the flames of the pathology. I would have nothing to do with theguy, and there is no reason to glare at these poor women who are still connected to him, that I can see.
That seems really unfair, that you not go to these church activities, but honestly, if this is all going on and people fear for you but the church will not remove the guy, then I would not want to go to that church--why remain in a situation where you are being abused?
But that is just what I would do, and may not apply to your situation.
Have you had a direct conversation with CG to let him know his behavior is uncomfortable for you and the impact his behavior is having on you? Have you had a direct conversation with sister & mother to let them know you would prefer to not interact with them?
this is a tough one.
on the one hand, you can just "gut it out" -- though if it's been 3 or more years that he's been doing this, gutting it out might not work. on the flip side, while I would be loathe to talk to him, perhaps a confrontational "what IS your problem?" in front of his peers might work.
and most people of your church (depending upon congregation of course) tend to be very modern people. :) I have new friends who attend every service in the area for your church -- and they are nice as pie. I'm so glad to know them. I love nice-as-pie people. :D Also, one of their pastor's lives in our neighborhood. He is super awesome. Hawk wanted to chat with him about his mode of dress, and he answered many questions and was very pleasant. Hawk then offered him a cupcake (which is Hawk's new thing), and he came in and had a cupcake and tea (with his wife, of course). Hawk is so super friendly with everyone. So, it's definitely an odd bunch at that church, and i'm sorry that it's still bringing you some trouble.
Wildflower
6-13-11, 9:48pm
I say this with all kindness, but are you sure you're not misreading the whole situation? And why be rude to this guy's family? That doesn't sound very Christian like at all.... I've been reading your posts for years and there always seems to be some drama going on at your church. Reminds me of why I quit my church years ago....
I'm not sure if my answer will seem wimpy, but you asked what I would do in your situation (a woman in your situation.) In your situation, I would talk to my pastor and explain why I would not be attending any more inter-church functions with stalker, and ask that the choir stop performing at such until stalker was dissuaded to stay away from me. If he would not keep choir from performing anyway, I would remove myself from the church, since it seems that the first church is extremely sexist and abusive towards women,a nd if the second church does not protect its members from the first church, then I would not feel it had my best interests at heart. I would certainly not engage the "entourage" of stalker in any way as I would think that would feed the flames of the pathology. I would have nothing to do with theguy, and there is no reason to glare at these poor women who are still connected to him, that I can see.
That seems really unfair, that you not go to these church activities, but honestly, if this is all going on and people fear for you but the church will not remove the guy, then I would not want to go to that church--why remain in a situation where you are being abused?
But that is just what I would do, and may not apply to your situation.
My congregation's choir doesn't travel. Sometimes choir at a special service is either that of hosting congregation, with others welcome; other times, it's a "pick up" choir with folks from many different congregations. I never sing with MY choir as a whole at other congregations, although other members of my choir might sing, along with me, in other choirs.
My current congregation and my previous congregation have nothing to do with each other, other than some personal connections. Most of the people at my current congregation wouldn't know anyone from my previous congregation if hit in the face with them. The reverse is true as well. So my current congregation can't protect members from people in my previous congregation that they don't know.
I wrote some notes out trying to see any pattern, and I realized that CG and entourage don't go to the events you have to pay for. For example, the all day seminar that my organization sponsors every year, that's $30 a person (includes breakfast and lunch) is not something I've ever seen them at. The free or low cost events they do attend. Going, but leaving right at the end of service or lecture and not hanging around for fellowship time, if I see them there, is an option.
Zoebird, it's been about 18 months, not three years.
Wildflower, no, it's not just me misreading the situation. Several people from my current congregation, including my pastor, have noticed the guy always hovering around me at events. These folks are aware I dated the guy two+ years back and were wondering what was up. It's people from my previous congregation - the same ones who see CG and his family every Sunday - who are the ones who refuse to take me seriously.
And what *am* I supposed to do with these women? I never liked the sister even when I was seeing CG. As my pastor said when we've talked, CG's wife is likely to be jealous about what's been going on. Refusing to engage even the women seemed like a way to let the wife know that I wasn't after her guy at all. After all, I dumped him. She can have him! I *do* feel sorry for the wife, in a way. She's painfully shy, according to a friend from my previous parish, but if she wanted a guy, well, she got one. Although as someone else said, who knows what story CG might have told the women.
I dig some digging online tonight to see if I could find his address in case it came to getting the cops involved. Found out a house was bought a few months ago, in her name only (she has quite a distinctive first name and the last name is uncommon, as well).
Reyes, no direct conversation with either CG, or sister and wife. Can't talk with his mother since she doesn't speak any English.
Fortunately, in the summer there are hardly any events so I'm going to have some breathing room for a few months.
After all, I dumped him.
Ah, I see I was confused about who you were talking about. I thought CG was the guy who was looking into going to seminary (maybe in PA?) and who was the one who told you he just wanted to be friends (something about confusing signals between the two of you).
Reyes, no direct conversation with either CG, or sister and wife. Can't talk with his mother since she doesn't speak any English.
Okay, so scratch the mother:-) Are you willing to try a direct conversation with CG? Did the two of you end with a lot of animosity?
Thanks for all your comments. It's helped me to see that *someone* has to say something to the guy, whether it's me, with backup, or my pastor, or another friend. Will just have to play it by ear.
screamingflea
6-14-11, 12:01am
Tradd, I'm really sorry you're going through this. It isn't right.
I went through a similar situation a few years ago. After getting scared I did some homework and this is what I learned:
Stalking is about ownership, in the stalker's mind. He is entitled to your time, your attention, and anything else about you. The stalker's reasons vary, but that is what it comes down to. Because of this, any attention you give him at all will reinforce his behavior and show him that his tactics are working. That includes any contact through a third party.
If this gets to the point that you're worried about your safety, and it sounds like it has, I strongly recommend that you document everything that happens between you and him, and his harem. ;) Dates, times, locations, other witnesses, and every other detail like who approaches you appearing to intend __. Use cameras and tape recorders if you think it'll help. Unfortunately police aren't helpful in stalking situations, especially if no overt threats are being made. If you can prove an ongoing pattern, it will be very helpful down the road if he crosses the line into criminal activity (that would be more readily recognized by law enforcement. It sounds like he's already deliberately harassing you which is criminal in itself.)
I'm glad you looked up his address - there's nothing wrong with orienting yourself to be better informed. Not to spook you, but do you have a feel for their routines? Any chance they might have a feel for yours? Basic situational awareness (http://www.selfdefenseresource.com/general/articles/awareness-color-codes.php) is an important skill for anybody. This might be a good time to polish those skills whether you're in any physical danger or not.
I'll tell you about my own situation: I was stalked briefly a few years ago by an amorous recovering (?!) crackhead. Jesus, apparently, told him that we should be friends. In his mind he was entitled to my time and my attention. No less than God told him so, and how could I compete with that? If he couldn't get my positive attention, any attention would do. At first I responded as anyone would by engaging with him. I got angry, and I told him repeatedly, very emotionally, to piss off. It's a reasonable thing to do, but counterproductive. Why? Because with any acknowledgement at all, I was reinforcing his behavior.
So I took some simple steps. After a long series of text messages and belligerent phone calls I shut off the text function on my cell phone plan, invested in an answering machine at home, and screened everything. He hadn't escalated beyond that point, so fortunately that took care of it. I thought long and hard about contacting his pastor but finally decided against it. It would still have been me contacting him, however indirectly, and he might have mistaken it for an olive branch.
Every so often I saw him around my block (I knew he lived over a mile away and didn't have a car,) so I shook up my routines and documented every sighting just to be safe. Success! Several months later he sent me one text that he was praying for me >8) so I sank $100 into a Cease and Desist letter on attorney letterhead. I knew I was taking the risk of egging him on, but it worked nicely. Every so often I'll keep tabs on him by reading his blog (anonymously, of course!) It seems he was kicked out of his church for being "too real." No mention of me though. I've gone back to answering my phone again.
I got a lot of wisdom from this website: http://www.stalkingvictims.com/home.htm There's a lot of research available on stalking. Some of it will scare your pants off. But it's better to be frightened and informed, than frightened and ignorant. But even if all it does is convince you that your situation isn't as bad as you thought, it's worth the effort.
Ultimately, you're the best authority on your situation. You know this guy and have some feel for what makes him tick. I know you don't want to, but it might help to quietly boycott these events for a while until he loses interest. It may be worth the return in your peace of mind. You can always go back later, and I'm sure your pastor will understand.
Ah, I see I was confused about who you were talking about. I thought CG was the guy who was looking into going to seminary (maybe in PA?) and who was the one who told you he just wanted to be friends (something about confusing signals between the two of you).
The guy looking at going to seminary was only a few months ago. CG was a little more than two years ago.
Okay, so scratch the mother:-) Are you willing to try a direct conversation with CG? Did the two of you end with a lot of animosity?
I'd not seen CG for probably two weeks when I ended it. He'd been out of town for 10 days without saying anything , and so I moved on. When he did get back into town, he was leaving lots of messages, which I never returned. Finally, I got sick of him calling so I picked up. He wanted to go out again, but I told him no, that there were lots of cultural differences. I also found out through a good friend who lives across the country that he had gotten in touch with my friend via social networking (a group for their ethnicity) and he was putting the moves on my friend, even though she told him she knew I was seeing him. That kind of sealed my decision. He was pretty angry on the phone, but left it alone. I never heard from him again. Didn't see him for some months, until a big funeral I was singing at and he was staring at me in choir. I caught him once or twice and a friend told me he was staring at me constantly (I was on the edge).
I was just glad to be rid of him. Don't know what he thought. After all, he kept making nasty comments about independent American women, so he had to figure I wasn't the type to fit quietly into his cultural expectations for a wife. You try to "break me" like you'd break a green horse in, and boy, you'll have a fight on your hands.
Flea, thanks for your comments and suggestions. I will check out that website. Fortunately, the guy doesn't have my current cell number as I changed it maybe six months after I stopped seeing him. I was just going through an old email address that's now my secondary account. I thought I didn't have any emails from him. Not in my inbox! But when I searched his name, I found all sorts in my sent folder. So, I've got his email address. Not sure if he still uses it, but it's something if I need it. No phone number though I have his address from my search earlier.
The guy looking at going to seminary was only a few months ago. CG was a little more than two years ago.
Yes, as I said, I was confused. My apologies.
I also found out through a good friend who lives across the country that he had gotten in touch with my friend via social networking (a group for their ethnicity) and he was putting the moves on my friend, even though she told him she knew I was seeing him.
Ah yes, now I remember who CG is.
Yes, as I said, I was confused. My apologies.
No sweat! :D
i may be misunderstanding this ... but i guess i don't see where sitting near you and looking at you are threatening behaviors? has he actually done or even insinuated any intention to do you harm?
if he was waiting for you outside of work ... if he called you all the time ... if he threatened you or got in your face or made demands of any kind on you, i can see why you'd be so concerned. but ... sitting near you at a church function? how is that anything beyond uncomfortable/awkward.
forgive me if i'm missing something obvious.
Hi Tradd,
I remember your posts when you were first seeing this guy. Screamingflea's advice is spot on. Unfortunately this guy is really not doing enough to warrant any kind of legal action or calling the police but it pays to be aware and to document things just in case. I had a similar situation with a coworker that continued after he left the company; unfortunately he lived a couple of miles away from me so he was still around. It was almost he knew exactly what to do to avoid crossing the line but was dancing right up to it.
Also, I agree that any sort of contact, in any way, will reinforce his behavior. It's hard to do that because your first inclination is to tell him off. Been there. In my case, I did not respond to any attempts at contact and just waited him out. Eventually, he moved out of the area because he had to...being unemployed for several months forced him to leave.
I hate to advise this, but maybe you can take a break from some of the gatherings?
iris lily
6-14-11, 10:22am
i may be misunderstanding this ... but i guess i don't see where sitting near you and looking at you are threatening behaviors? has he actually done or even insinuated any intention to do you harm?
if he was waiting for you outside of work ... if he called you all the time ... if he threatened you or got in your face or made demands of any kind on you, i can see why you'd be so concerned. but ... sitting near you at a church function? how is that anything beyond uncomfortable/awkward.
forgive me if i'm missing something obvious.
It all depends. Now, for me--because I am oblivious to much human action around me being the Iris centric person that I am-- I probably wouldn't notice, at least, not at first.
It may well be stalking lite and as such it's uncomfortable. The guy probably violates several social norms and sticks his foot into it in other ways with other people as well by failing to recognize boundaries and the conventions of this American society. He possibly isn't even consciously doing it to bug Tradd, he's just bored at these events and finds her annoying or fascinating or just Something To Watch. Predatory behavior has the stalker zeroing in on the prey with, often, little intellectual thought behind it, it's emotional.
iris lily
6-14-11, 10:32am
Tradd, I still think that enlisting church men on your side to stand around and make it obvious that you are physically protected is a good idea.
This stalker guy may respond to elemental messages which convey "this woman is OURS and not YOURS and not for YOUR TAKING, she is in OUR pack." The cultural difference with him is hard to analyze.
Iris, I have two guys who would be perfect for that -my well over 6' pastor and a deacon friend who is 6'7". :) CG is my height or shorter (I'm 5'5").
I think we should all converge at Tradd's next church function and get the message out! :~] Wish we could!
I think we should all converge at Tradd's next church function and get the message out! :~] Wish we could!
I have a male friend who is 6'10".....would it help if he came too? :) A bunch of us plus a few really tall guys (friend, pastor, deacon) looming large just might do the job!
I had a stalker. I probably still do. Mine was similar in that I dated him for quite awhile after a very difficult and painful divorce and ultimately left. I actually took a job 130 miles away and moved away. Suddenly this person who wouldn't commit and kept me off balance for several years decided he couldn't and wouldn't live without me. He moved to where I moved, just a few blocks away. No amount of telling him I wanted no contact with him would work. Twice I woke up during the night to find him in my room. I'd come home to find flowers on my counter. He'd clean my shed in my backyard. Prior to this I hadn't gotten so much as a birthday card in 5 years. I got two restraining orders. When he couldn't contact me directly he started sending poems written about me to the local newspaper in Letters to the Editor. It's been 11 years and I only stopped getting Christmas cards and birthday cards this year. He did call me once this year and I only answered because I misread the number on caller ID. Call me paranoid but I immediately went to a friends house for two hours. The fact that I answered his call for the first time in 10 years created the possibility that he'd see this as a good sign and show up. He didn't thank God.
The thing I absolutely learned through this is that any interaction, no matter how insignificant, made the whole process of him trying to contact me begin anew. If I so much as looked at his car while he was driving past my house, the calls and letters would start again. Did he threaten me? No. But I have a right like anyone else to end a relationship. The fact that I spent 10 years being pursued by him was unnerving. It finally got to the point where he took me to court to try and get my order of protection rescinded. I live in a small town in a county where orders of protection are granted in about 5% of cases that come before the judge. Violations of those orders are dismissed 85% of the time. But our county State's Attorney was so disturbed by the persistence and longevity of my case, he actually represented me personally for free when my stalker took me to court. The most difficult part of that whole thing was that my talker represented himself, so I had to be cross examined by him. That's a day I'll not soon forget. But the judge sided with me.
If you feel uncomfortable, listen to your gut. Don't interact with him. It's what he wants. Zero contact is the only thing that works. And if that means avoiding events he's likely to be at, unfortunately it's something you might need to do, even if it sucks and feels like you're giving in. Remember one thing. These people don't think like us, so you can't apply the same set of rules.
It all depends. Now, for me--because I am oblivious to much human action around me being the Iris centric person that I am-- I probably wouldn't notice, at least, not at first.
It may well be stalking lite and as such it's uncomfortable. The guy probably violates several social norms and sticks his foot into it in other ways with other people as well by failing to recognize boundaries and the conventions of this American society. He possibly isn't even consciously doing it to bug Tradd, he's just bored at these events and finds her annoying or fascinating or just Something To Watch. Predatory behavior has the stalker zeroing in on the prey with, often, little intellectual thought behind it, it's emotional.
I'm a very observant sort. I pay attention. Plus, I have a habit of people watching. So very little escapes me. After two events, with the having to sit at the same table or as near me as possible when other places were open (and it was to the point where the guy was trying to find space at my table when there wasn't any), the staring, the getting up and following me - well, I took notice. There was a pattern, and the happenings weren't coincidental. CG even kinda slinks around and is "oily," if you get what I mean. Yucks. Gives me the creeps.
Mathematically, does he follow/stare/sit near you any more often than he DOESN'T follow/stare/sit near you? Perhaps you're just hyperaware of the times he does?
And if you're absolutely sure he does, have you ever confronted him loudly in front of a group? I'm not an extrovert, but I once solved a similar situation by going off on the person while (purposely) surrounded by others friendly to me, ticking off on my fingers everything he was doing and asking him to stop.
I detest drama and want it stopped as soon as it starts. If I'm 100% sure I'm in the right, and if it takes calling someone out, I don't hesitate. Consider it. He does not sound like a dangerous stalker (I have experience with one of those) just someone who may be socially clueless and needs a wake-up call.
rodeosweetheart
6-14-11, 3:25pm
I agree with the idea of staying away for a while, in order to halt reinforcing stimuli. Negative stimuli, like glaring at the women, would prob ably reinforce his idea that he is "getting" to you, right? Also, why get emotionally involved in their drama. If they choose to be his victims, then that is none of your concern.
I was stalked by my ex-husband and the best advice I have heard here is to remember that these people do not think like you do. It helps to imagine them as kind of reptilian, with reptilian brains. Something is missing. the minute you try to treat them like a normal person, they take that for weakness--these are damaged people and dangerous people, and it's best to stay far away. I moved away from the area where he lived as soon as I could (which was not soon at all, as I had to wait til my kids turned 18, about six years.)
But please don't get hooked into trying to find out a whole lot about him and caring whose name his house is in. He sounds like a criminal,and the farther away you stay, the happier you will be. I would consider boycotting any church event where he might be--heck, I would definitely boycott any place he might be. I stayed as far away from my ex-husband as I could, even though the social pressure was immense to appear in the same places or to "rise above it" for the kids sake. I figured when I was found murdered by someone he hired to do it, that my friends would realize that maybe I wasn't so "crazy" after all.
I'm sorry this is happening. I'd forget about standing around with tall men, etc. (although I see why Iris suggests it) as you are reasoning with a lunatic, and you never, ever want to do that.
One more thing--I get a protective order against my ex husband but he did not seem to recognize that it applied to him. The kindest people of all to me were the police, when I went to register the protective order at the police department. They had great advice and they took me seriously, and they told me they were a phone call away and not to hesitate.
So the reason, I think, the protective orders don;'t work is not the police or the courts, it is because these people are lunatics and you can't reason with a lunatic.
Take good care. I wish you were nearer us and you could sing in my current husband's choir! I know what it is like to sing in a church choir and to never want to give that up.
wow, there are some sad, disturbed people on the forum of the stalking list mentioned by flea. Inncubus & succubus rapes, and that damn ACLU won't do anything about it?!!!
whoah.
screamingflea
6-15-11, 12:49pm
Iris, stalking is a very serious matter. Having to deal with a constant barrage of hostility, and wondering whether it will turn physically dangerous, kills the spirit. In more extreme cases stalking can drain the quality of a victim's life down to nothing as they're forced to spend all their money and energy on security, lawyers, moving, and changing their names. Some victims fell prey to identity theft, assault, or are otherwise "disappeared." Please do not make light of it, especially in the company of people who've gone through this ordeal.
I've been through it, and am not offended by Iris' remarks.
It's a dreadful thing, but a handful of the people she mentions really seem to take the victim mentality far beyond healthy limits, and in fact seem to need professional help and not a discussion board. They actually do mention contacting the ACLU to help protect them against being raped by ghosts/succubus/spirits, sleeping in shifts inside a padlocked room, etc. Very sad.
Personally I'd talk to the pastor of your old church, explain the situation and ask him to step in.
Personally I'd talk to the pastor of your old church, explain the situation and ask him to step in.
Artist, in short: pastor from my old church has repeatedly tried to take me down publicly because I do not live as he thinks a woman should - married early, lots of kids, homeschool, don't work, yada yada yada. I truly believe he would like to see me just this side of physically injured. He's an extremely vindictive sort.
So, will not work.
I seriously do not want to offend you, and certainly do not want to make light of stalking. It's frightening and dangerous. BUT, if the only time you are seeing this guy is at low cost inter parrish church events, just maybe it's not what you think.
Possibly he is chosing to sit near you so you can see that even though you broke up with him he went on to happily marry and have a child. He sounds as if he might be more socially inept than dangerous. Some people are really thick that way. And as for his mother and sister smiling at you, it sounds to me like they are just trying to keep things friendly.
screamingflea
6-19-11, 3:27am
Artist, in short: pastor from my old church has repeatedly tried to take me down publicly because I do not live as he thinks a woman should - married early, lots of kids, homeschool, don't work, yada yada yada. I truly believe he would like to see me just this side of physically injured. He's an extremely vindictive sort.
People like that have no place in the pulpit. It's an embarrassment to the denomination. Any denomination.
I seriously do not want to offend you, and certainly do not want to make light of stalking. It's frightening and dangerous. BUT, if the only time you are seeing this guy is at low cost inter parrish church events, just maybe it's not what you think.
Possibly he is chosing to sit near you so you can see that even though you broke up with him he went on to happily marry and have a child. He sounds as if he might be more socially inept than dangerous. Some people are really thick that way. And as for his mother and sister smiling at you, it sounds to me like they are just trying to keep things friendly.
Bagelgirl, if Tradd feels this uncomfortable, it's a problem.
screamingflea
6-19-11, 2:16pm
Iris, I misread your last post above. I thought you were referring to stalking victims in general. Apologies.
People like that have no place in the pulpit. It's an embarrassment to the denomination. Any denomination.
Yeah, well, the pastor can be extremely charming and glib with the tongue when he wants to be. The issues don't show up right away.
But I'm now amongst people who not only love and respect me, but they value my gifts and skills highly. I'm thriving very well! I'm in leadership positions I was asked to be in. That floors some people.
ultimately, what do you think he wants from you? He now has a wife and family, right? I am not downplaying your reaction to him, just wondering what his motivation is? Years ago I had someone who I had dated for a couple of years who continued to contact me. Not often, but a couple of times a year. Once he taked about 10 or 15 minutes and found out what was going on with my life, he was fine. Oddly enough, it seemed he just wanted to touch base and see how I was doing. It finally dwindled away and he stopped calling.
ultimately, what do you think he wants from you? He now has a wife and family, right? I am not downplaying your reaction to him, just wondering what his motivation is? Years ago I had someone who I had dated for a couple of years who continued to contact me. Not often, but a couple of times a year. Once he taked about 10 or 15 minutes and found out what was going on with my life, he was fine. Oddly enough, it seemed he just wanted to touch base and see how I was doing. It finally dwindled away and he stopped calling.
I don't know. Frankly, if he wanted to hear how I was doing, all he had to do was ask friends of mine at old church who are still in contact with me.
The guy really creeps me out. He just doesn't come around me for a bit, but he's tried to force his way into making room at a table where I am, even when it's obvious all seats are taken. He follows me. Stares. But there was an incident at a gathering for a friend's once-in-a-lifetime event at a mutual friend's home several weeks ago. I'm not going to get into details for privacy reasons, but that convinced me something very odd is going on.
maybe the mutual friend can bring it up?
Unless you clearly tell him to stop, in front of witnesses or on tape, he can claim he didn't know it bothered you. I would lay the legal groundwork now in case things worsen later by stating loud and clear to him that this is not acceptable. You only have to say it once, you don't have to have a whole conversation. If he tries to argue, walk away.
iris lily
6-20-11, 10:43am
I think that the analysis of this situation as reptilian brain make sense. Oh I know, we can never really know what's going on given the limited information on a web site, but that makes the most sense to me. IT would be interesting to talk to the guy to really ferret out what's going on in his view. I'll bet he would deny it.
screamingflea
6-20-11, 11:28am
The guy really creeps me out. [ ... ] that convinced me something very odd is going on.
Tradd my dear, that's all you need to know. Listen to your instincts. If something feels wrong intuitively, it probably is. Even if his intentions are super-dee-dooper a la Barney the Dinosaur, if he's making you uncomfortable he needs to stop. That's all there is to it.
If you choose to tell him to piss off, Yppej has some good advice with the witnesses. I'd suggest a certified letter - it's in writing, you'd have the receipt that he got it, and certified mail is nice and official. It's a very common way to give formal notice, so it would be a good recognizable foundation for any further legal action you may need to take later on.
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