Money and values

[iris lilies]

For a while now I’ve been thinking about how values create conflict in people. That person on the other side of an issue isn’t “wrong” so much as is making a decision from a different set of values than mine.

A self actualized person will act in accordance to his values. Two self actualized people could hold very different opinions on issues of the day, depending on what they place as top values in life.

And then, after a few months of listening to Ramit Sethi’s podcasts “I Will Teach you to be Rich” where he focuses people to identify their values around money, I even more see values as shaping that part of our life. Money sense is not money sense. We treat money according to our own value system and that is not the same system for everyone. And that is fine!

So that is why I always push back a bit when I hear “why don’t they teach kids about money in school!!???” Because I wonder what exactly will be taught, according to whose value system?

I would bet that no school will teach “pay off your mortgage as soon as humanely possible and eat rice and beans until you do.” Because

* your house is ALWAYS an appreciating asset, right?
*it is perfectly acceptable as a middle class value to have a mortgage
* what about that great tax deduction?
* and etc.
to me, these are myths outside of my value system. I value peace, security, freedom. To me, freedom is embodied in a paid off house. I can save enough money outside of that to build up cash assets, it isnt an “either/or” situation for me.

I would bet also that school would teach “budgeting.” Budgeting is not a financial system I value
and I do vaguely remember building a household budget in Home Ec class, something that went in one ear and out the other.

Let us discuss money and values.

[iris lilies]

Oh, I thought of another one they would never teach in school unless *I* was running the school, along with Dave Ramsey:

Interest is THE ENEMY. Never ever feed THE ENEMY.

[iris lilies]

Here’s another value I have that many (most?) do not have: money is super dooper extraordinarily important in my life. Money is Freedom. Freedom is super dooper extraordinarily important to me.

Many people don’t make this strong connection between freedom and money. See, they are not wrong they just do not value money in that way.

[catherine]

Wow. I love the topic, but it's a lot to think about. I'm reading Derek Sivers these days--and he's great. I love that he says that he's a "slow thinker," so I think I'll take the opportunity to be a slow thinker and get back to you this...

But I also think of Sivers in another context related to your post. He is writing a book called "Useful, Not True" meaning we tend to call things true, because that truth is useful for us. I haven't read the book yet, but he says: "This book helps you see that since almost nothing is absolutely indisputably true, you should choose beliefs and ideas that are useful to you now — that help you take the right actions. That’s why it’s called “USEFUL NOT TRUE”.

I do think those "truths" that you have listed are simply values that have proven useful for the person who believes them.

So, I'll be back, after some slow thinking...

[iris lilies]

This week I was listening to a couple of podcasts including Dave Ramsey who summarized one study of married people in this way: if both spouses are college educated and came from two sets of parents still married, their chance of remaining married is 90%.

Let us assume he is accurately summarizing a legitimate study for discussion purposes. How does this tie in with money? I believe the stability in all relationships has required all parties to learn communication and negotiaion skills, but also there is a really good chance they share values around money.

It occured fo me that I am in the equivilent of an arranged marriage. My spouse is a similar education level, age, cultural background (but not religion.) We absolutely see money in the same way although I would guess it is not quite as important to him as it is to me, yet he has an even a harder time letting it go than I have.

[Tybee]

I think many people do make a strong connection between freedom and money. For us we have seen it played out in the houses where we had no mortgage--our plans changed, we were free to go somewhere else, not worry about paying off mortgage, it was very freeing.

My husband made a great observation the other day--he realized that you are always on one side or the other of the equation, and he would rather be the one collecting interest than the one paying interest. For him, that was a revolutionary realization, since he liked debt before we went through Dave Ramsey and he tried it the other way.

Another value I hold is to pay my own way, to not be financially dependent on anyone else. That was learned in a very bad marriage, but it also applies to situations like not looking at an inheritance as your retirement plan. If you are in debt to someone, you are kind of dependent on them, so another reason not to debt.

One more value--pay attention to your own money--no one cares about it as much as you do.

[Tybee]

Another value I realize I hold--money is most important to take care of one's family. So you are a steward of what comes your way, and it is there to take care of all of you, not there for you to accumulate for yourself. It is there to be used, although one needs to be prudent and save so that one can take care of oneself when one can no longer work.

[pinkytoe]

I don't have any issue with teaching financial literacy as I think a lot of people don't seem to understand basic and intermediate concepts. My 40 yo DD is highly educated and yet is asking me how to invest since she doesn't fully grok all the ins and outs of investing options. She has her own thoughts about money (spends it freely) but the basics of investing kind of elude her so she feels conflicted on how to proceed. I actually elected to give the 5 yo grand-twins cash money this year for Christmas so they could begin to form their own ideas about using it. They both quickly divided the different denominations of bills and learned some math in the process. Will be interesting to see if one is a spender and the other a saver.

[catherine]

I like the idea of freedom, IL, and I like the idea of stewardship, Tybee.

I have recently been exploring the emotional side of my relationship with money through a woman-owned online business and I've discovered the degree to which my relationship has been a rocky, rocky road. I feel like money is the partner that keeps betraying you and walking out on you, so you determine it is wise to just detach. You see other people with money and you wish you had the same relationship, but you don't trust it. At some point, you decide you would like money back in your life, because it would be comforting and it would put you in the right circles, and it would provide for you, but you still want to keep it at arm's length. You fear putting your hand out and having Money pull back yet again and laugh at you.

My father came from a family of entrepreneurs and smart, frugal, self-made people. But my father was not one of them... as a result my childhood was vey rocky financially. Here today, gone tomorrow--ironically DH's frequent saying, which I HATE is "money comes and money goes." With a fresh insight, I told him the other day that this implies you have no control over your money, when you absolutely do. This was a recent insight for me--because my whole life it felt like I was at the mercy of some capricious servant.

So, when it comes down to it, I think I value money for stability. If I can pay my bills, I thank God (literally). If I can count on making ends meet, I'm more than satisfied. If I don't have to bounce between lack and temptation to indulge beyond my basic needs, I'm at peace.

As far as the financial literacy question, I think there are basics children could be taught. If I were teaching, I be very rational. Money should be a neutral topic.How does compound interest work? How much will you pay in interest if you buy a brand new car? How do you sift through marketing messages to stay on course with your own goals? Stuff like that.

[Rogar]

Interest is THE ENEMY. Never ever feed THE ENEMY.

Interest giveth and interest taketh away. I recall in my Precambrian youth that I was encouraged to save. Put money in a saving account and watch it grow. Those were the days when you took a real passbook to the bank teller with deposits or withdrawals and maybe in the disillusioned days of youth that your money was actually in a safe place somewhere in the back of the bank. Recent days of low interest are an anomaly in our financial history, so maybe the concept of saving is not what it once was. I came across the rule of 72 early in my working life. Secondary schools should have programs in personal finance.

I could see where money has became something of a digital illusion these days of endless easy credit.

[HappyHiker]

So, when it comes down to it, I think I value money for stability. If I can pay my bills, I thank God (literally). If I can count on making ends meet, I'm more than satisfied. If I don't have to bounce between lack and temptation to indulge beyond my basic needs, I'm at peace.

This resonated deeply with me. I feel exactly the same. We live a pretty simple life; now retired. I feel I want for nothing--but there's little I want as I grow older. This feels so peaceful. I call it keeping down with Joneses...

[happystuff]

Very interesting topic and I can see how different/changing perspectives may generate different and changing answers. I've seen - both personally and in some others - that the "value" of money changes dependent on how much money one has. When I had little-to-no money, my relationship with it was very different than when I had a decent amount. For those who are financially secure, it is easy to put money in the backseat (so to speak) and move on to other things, but for those who are not financially secure, money takes on a more pressing, in-your-face type of priority.

As for financial education, I agree that basics should be taught, but - again - ymmv on defining what "basics" are.

[iris lilies]

I will admit to a bit of an exaggeration saying that K-12 school have trouble teaching my values about money. I don’t hold any ideas about money that are outlandish, I’m a middle-class person with middle-class ideas.

so what would schools teach? They would probably teach what they’re already teaching and I don’t know, I admit it.

I do remember in about eighth or ninth grade, maybe Econ class, we had to fill out a 1040 income tax form and were given the income and deductions “facts” to be included. Each one of us were given a different set of facts. The exercise was about a practical financial skill. I struggled with it, and I don’t know why, and my best friend did fine with it. She breezed through it.

so I think that was a good practical skill to teach it just that it didn’t “take “with me.

Today I heard Dave Ramsey explain exactly how amortization works with a mortgage. I can’t say I had conceptualized it that way. So that was useful. That might be an exercise to include in our middle school or high school “personal finance “class.

Thinking about pinkytoe‘s daughter, would learning about various investment vehicles be useful? I will bet they are included in some curriculums somewhere, it’s not a new idea. CDs, index, funds, individual stocks, etc. – but this is where it gets into “values “because there’s a whole group of people who view stock market investment as a form of gambling.

[catherine]

Today I heard Dave Ramsey explain exactly how amortization works with a mortgage. I can’t say I had conceptualized it that way. So that was useful. That might be an exercise to include in our middle school or high school “personal finance “class.


Dave Ramsey was my primary influence for getting a 15-year mortgage on my place in VT. I am aware of of how limiting an amortization schedule can be. I am thrilled that we took out a mortgage of $133,000, and only 6 years later I already am down to only owing $89,000. If I had a 30-year mortgage, I'd only be paying a couple of hundred in principle.

If I had it to do over again, I'd always get a 15-year mortgage or less. I know you can pay it down early and it has the same effect, but that's the difference between intention and commitment.

[Tybee]

Catherine, that is awesome on the mortgage--I wish we had done the same when we bought!

[catherine]

Catherine, that is awesome on the mortgage--I wish we had done the same when we bought!

Yeah, this just popped up on my CreditKarma... it shows pretty dramatically the impact of an amortization schedule at 15- and 30-years rates.

The top one is the NJ house, which was refinanced in 2019. The bottom one is the VT house which was purchased in January of 2018. Crazy!! We would have refinanced the 45 Oakey house at a 15-year rate, but we thought we would have unloaded it by now. (BTW, the closing with my son is next week!!! :)

5726

[Tybee]

That is an amazing graphic and very revealing!!!

I hope we do not get another mortgage but if we do, I think that we should go for a 10 or 15 year mortgage. Hallelujah on the closing--that is the way I will feel when we have this mortgage gone, one way or another.

And what you said about stability--that is exactly how I feel--it's been sticking in my head for 3 days now--stability-- just peace knowing that I will be able to pay the bills.

[rosarugosa]

DH and I had a conversation around this yesterday. We both grew up in reasonably comfortable middle-class homes. Both of our families moved out of apartments in triple-deckers in the city, to single-family houses in the suburbs (actually very close together in the same suburb, thus setting the stage for DH and I to find each other, fall in love, and live happily ever after). In hindsight, we can see that there were probably some tight times in our households, but as kids, we were blissfully unaware. I know now that this in itself is a sign of privilege; if you are really poor, you can't help but be aware of it even if you are a little kid. We always had everything we needed, and much of what we wanted, and life was good. Our families were responsible with money, bills got paid on time, there was room for some indulgences, but nothing over-the-top.

As adults, we aspired to and attained, a similar lifestyle. Without kids, we were undoubtedly able to be a lot more self-indulgent, and I shudder now to think of the many thousands of dollars frittered away on clothes and restaurants and other foolish extravagances. We had the mindset that money was there to be spent, and we were never savers, until I had my aha moment at about age 50.

My aha moment came when we had a series of small financial crises, nothing catastrophic, and we handled them all with HELOC checks. Even as I was writing the checks, I knew this wasn't the best strategy, and that we should have savings for this type of thing. At the same time, DH was really hating his job, but was kind of stuck. That's when I started looking at frugality and simple living, and we made some radical changes for the better. We got the house paid off, built up savings, DH was able to downshift to more pleasant, part-time work, and I was eventually able to retire early myself. Imagine if we had been following this type of program all along!

I do think schools should teach more about personal finance and I think it could be pretty values-neutral. Interest, compounding, retirement accounts, basic investment literacy should be covered. I think illustrations like they have on credit card statements showing how long and how much you will pay if you only make minimum payments would be valuable. Then you make your own choices, but at least with some understanding of the implications.

[rosarugosa]

Yeah, this just popped up on my CreditKarma... it shows pretty dramatically the impact of an amortization schedule at 15- and 30-years rates.

The top one is the NJ house, which was refinanced in 2019. The bottom one is the VT house which was purchased in January of 2018. Crazy!! We would have refinanced the 45 Oakey house at a 15-year rate, but we thought we would have unloaded it by now. (BTW, the closing with my son is next week!!! :)

5726

That is exciting about the closing on the NJ house!

[iris lilies]

DH and I had a conversation around this yesterday. We both grew up in reasonably comfortable middle-class homes. Both of our families moved out of apartments in triple-deckers in the city, to single-family houses in the suburbs (actually very close together in the same suburb, thus setting the stage for DH and I to find each other, fall in love, and live happily ever after). In hindsight, we can see that there were probably some tight times in our households, but as kids, we were blissfully unaware. I know now that this in itself is a sign of privilege; if you are really poor, you can't help but be aware of it even if you are a little kid. We always had everything we needed, and much of what we wanted, and life was good. Our families were responsible with money, bills got paid on time, there was room for some indulgences, but nothing over-the-top.

As adults, we aspired to and attained, a similar lifestyle. Without kids, we were undoubtedly able to be a lot more self-indulgent, and I shudder now to think of the many thousands of dollars frittered away on clothes and restaurants and other foolish extravagances. We had the mindset that money was there to be spent, and we were never savers, until I had my aha moment at about age 50.

My aha moment came when we had a series of small financial crises, nothing catastrophic, and we handled them all with HELOC checks. Even as I was writing the checks, I knew this wasn't the best strategy, and that we should have savings for this type of thing. At the same time, DH was really hating his job, but was kind of stuck. That's when I started looking at frugality and simple living, and we made some radical changes for the better. We got the house paid off, built up savings, DH was able to downshift to more pleasant, part-time work, and I was eventually able to retire early myself. Imagine if we had been following this type of program all along!

I do think schools should teach more about personal finance and I think it could be pretty values-neutral. Interest, compounding, retirement accounts, basic investment literacy should be covered. I think illustrations like they have on credit card statements showing how long and how much you will pay if you only make minimum payments would be valuable. Then you make your own choices, but at least with some understanding of the implications.

The bolded above is what many people have as their money values, even those who would be considered responsible with money. Who is to say that once you “meet all of your bills” as people like to say, there should be any concern about money? Or, let’s say the theoretical you meet all your bills and save $200 a month. Isn’t that great?

I have a couple friends who seem to approach everything from a monthly point of view. I think they pretty much see that money stream as “something to be spent “as long as all their obligations are met. My personal belief is that THIS what the concept of “budgeting “puts in our heads, which is why I don’t like the concept of “budgeting. “

[Tybee]

I respectfully disagree, thinking that budgeting provides guardrails- as Dickens wrote,

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

[iris lilies]

I respectfully disagree, thinking that budgeting provides guardrails- as Dickens wrote,

"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."
Well, I will admit that mine is a fringe opinion and I don’t necessarily hold it strongly. there are a fair number of people over on the Mr. Money Mustache site, though, who do not “budget. “

Sure people need the initial guidance of a “budget “I guess. But after a short period of comparing financial obligations to incoming money, I think people should move quickly beyond that, thinking about the leftover money from bills, and what should they do with it, to reach financial freedom. In my high school, of course I would teach people not to look at that as a “windfall of sorts “every month if the budget category was in the black.

I would also teach my high school kids to think about squeezing some of those obligations down to create more in the financial freedom column.
When it comes to have tedious, financial record-keeping, I prefer the concept of tracking. There’s no reason someone can’t do both of course.
Dave Ramsey calls budgeting “assigning every incoming dollar to a job.” That just isn’t for me.

[Tradd]

I don’t like to budget. My finances are simple. I pay everything via online banking or with a card. So it’s easily trackable. I rarely use cash.

I’m on a big frugality group on FB. I’ve been seeing a ton of elitist behavior. People being shamed for shopping at Walmart because WM has a long history of not treating employees right. When you have to feed yourself or a family, that comes first, especially if you don’t have a lot of money. The elites don’t seem to realize or care that people in rural areas/small towns probably don’t have a lot of shopping choices. WM may be their only choice.

[catherine]

I prefer the concept of tracking. There’s no reason someone can’t do both of course.
Dave Ramsey calls budgeting “assigning every incoming dollar to a job.” That just isn’t for me.

Yes, DR does start with telling people to "give every dollar a name" but that is just a tool to get to all the other wealth-building practices. As I'm sure you're aware, it goes from squeezing every penny out of your "budget" to save $1000, then pay off debt (eating beans and rice, rice and beans until you have no debt), then fund a 3-6 month emergency fund, then start stashing in a tax-deferred instrument, then pay off your house...

Dave Ramsey's target audience isn't the iris lilies of the world--his audience are the people who haven't a clue and found themselves overwhelmed with tough financial predicaments. I have told my kids that no matter what you think of Dave Ramsey, the plan is pretty foolproof to get you to a place of financial independence. And I think when you are deep in a hole making every expenditure accountable to your goals is enlightening.

That being said, I like the concept of tracking better than budgeting, too. I think they are related. I track what I'm spending so I can see in black and white where the spending is not worth my life energy, as YMOL would say.

[Tybee]

I guess I start with a spending plan--lately I have using Everydollar which does "give every dollar a name" which I like, then track when I spend in that category. I have been surprised that I tend to spend more than I remember spending, and that things come up, like the car insurance bill this week that somehow I forgot about--so having accounts where we save money for various categories saves us from not having the money. I don't know how we could do that without a spending plan, which makes us aware of where we are actually spending, and plans so that each month we can pay the bills?

[rosarugosa]

I am a fan of budgeting, at least for most people. If you are achieving your goals without it, then fine, whatever works, but since so many people are not achieving their goals, it can be a useful tool.
For us, here was the key difference. In our free-spending days, an extra $100 at then end of the month meant "let's go out to eat!" When we changed our ways, it meant "we have an extra $100 to put into savings!" (or put on the mortgage, or whatever the primary financial goal might be at the time).

[iris lilies]

I’ve been Listening to Dave Ramsey lately after never really hearing an entire show. I do enjoy his no nonsense approach to telling people what they need to do with their financial lives, and it’s interesting how often relationship decisions affect finances so he offers plenty of “dad” advice on family and friend relationships.

Anyway, good old Dave has coursework for high school students. He shows content on his website. He makes some pretty big claims on his podcast that this curriculum is being used in hundreds of schools across the country. Maybe homeschooling? I don’t know that I buy that.

anyway, I looked over the curriculum contents, and it seems OK to me, but of course it does have whole section on budgeting. You can’t get away from the
concept of “budgeting “ in mainstream financial thought.

https://www.ramseysolutions.com/education/homeschool?campaign_id=7015x000000uxIzAAI&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADCDZ7RIh4Uurgms_gkpcB9r4mZu3&gclid=Cj0KCQiAwP6sBhDAARIsAPfK_wbsSv4KmMl9q6dqbGc3 DXPK1vAyzCmgyNnEr6xrVnbgSAjR8uy-avIaAlewEALw_wcB

[ToomuchStuff]

I’ve been Listening to Dave Ramsey lately after never really hearing an entire show. I do enjoy his no nonsense approach to telling people what they need to do with their financial lives, and it’s interesting how often relationship decisions affect finances so he offers plenty of “dad” advice on family and friend relationships.

Anyway, good old Dave has coursework for high school students. He shows content on his website. He makes some pretty big claims on his podcast that this curriculum is being used in hundreds of schools across the country. Maybe homeschooling? I don’t know that I buy that.

anyway, I looked over the curriculum contents, and it seems OK to me, but of course it does have whole section on budgeting. You can’t get away from the
concept of “budgeting “ in mainstream financial thought.

https://www.ramseysolutions.com/education/homeschool?campaign_id=7015x000000uxIzAAI&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAADCDZ7RIh4Uurgms_gkpcB9r4mZu3&gclid=Cj0KCQiAwP6sBhDAARIsAPfK_wbsSv4KmMl9q6dqbGc3 DXPK1vAyzCmgyNnEr6xrVnbgSAjR8uy-avIaAlewEALw_wcB


Private, religious schools.

D.R. was a friend of a late friend of mine. I remember when a gal that worked for us, was offered a chance to see a D.R. event by her now deceased uncle, that owned a bank and his daily driver was a Maybach.
I like him, but am hopeful that eventually, his message gets separated from religion that it is based on, or people realize they can get the info for free, from the same book he did.

[iris lilies]

Private, religious schools.

D.R. was a friend of a late friend of mine. I remember when a gal that worked for us, was offered a chance to see a D.R. event by her now deceased uncle, that owned a bank and his daily driver was a Maybach.
I like him, but am hopeful that eventually, his message gets separated from religion that it is based on, or people realize they can get the info for free, from the same book he did.

You are right and I didn’t think of that, yes, it’s probably used in private schools that are religion based.

I’ve been listening to several Dave podcast and I don’t really mind the religious stuff. He had something interesting to say in yesterday‘s podcast about tithing. Later I’ll come back to the thread and post about it.

[Tybee]

You are right and I didn’t think of that, yes, it’s probably used in private schools that are religion based.

I’ve been listening to several Dave podcast and I don’t really mind the religious stuff. He had something interesting to say in yesterday‘s podcast about tithing. Later I’ll come back to the thread and post about it.

Oh, please do--that is my latest question, and I am really interested in the idea of tithing on the increase, like many Mormons do--tithing at the end of the year on the increase that year. I did it this year for first time.

[nswef]

I think I've tried to tithe ever since I got my first job as an adult. Save 10% and charity 10% all in the bank first thing. It's a good habit. I am not a church goer, but that stuck with me.

[iris lilies]

here’s a summary of Dave Ramsey‘s call about tithing. Keep in mind this is theology according to Dave Ramsey.

A man called the Ramsey show to say, he regularly tithed to his local church.

In his commute drives to and from work he had been listening to a particular religious podcast preacher whose name escapes me, and the caller said he had been enlightened so much by these podcasts that he felt he should give some of his tithe money to the podcaster.

Dave disagreed with him immediately. Dave said, according to the Bible, tithing is for your own church to take care of the sick, the widows, the children, and the needy. It’s not to reward someone for enlightening you or to make you feel better, it is gesture of support for your church.

Then Dave mentioned that this particular religious Podcaster is a friend of his and that person is doing well financially.

Dave did offer the idea that the caller could give goodwill donations to the Podcaster, that’s fine. But he shouldn’t consider it part of tithing, nor should it take away from his tithing.

I thought that was an interesting intersection of religion and money, one I had not heard.

[rosarugosa]

So do some folks consider secular charitable donations to be tithing?

[Tradd]

So do some folks consider secular charitable donations to be tithing?

I know some folks, who are no longer practicing Christians, but still really like the idea of giving 10% (or whatever amount they decide on) regularly to charity.

[Tybee]

So do some folks consider secular charitable donations to be tithing?

It's totally up to the person. I do. I think the Mormons and apparently Dave feel it is to go to your church. I use it in my life as a principle of giving, so right now, since I am not going to church, I give mine to educational organizations and sometimes to the Quaker AFS.

But tithing is from a religious context so different branches of religion have different ideas of what it means and what it does. Tithe is from the word the tenth, and so it is from the Old Testament idea of giving a tenth of one's increase, like if you have 100 new lambs, you tithe 10 to the church.

The increase thing is interesting to me because there is a lot of Mormon commentary on whether that means on one's salary or increase in net worth. So in retirement, increase in net worth becomes more relevant than when one is getting a salary.

This year I started a charitable donor fund with Schwab and gave a tenth of my increase into that. But it's sitting there. I also gave during the year on some of what came in, like paychecks, but not on social security.

[catherine]

I also like the idea of tithing... although I do not do it regularly. I think the idea of it--giving God/The Universe a portion of what you have been blessed with is a sound principle.

Regarding the church vs charity thing, when I was considering a return to the Catholic church, the pastor there said that 5% should be allocated to the church and 5% to charities of our choice. I thought that was a great idea.

[happystuff]

I give what I can give when I can give it - with joy and gratitude for what I have to share.

[rosarugosa]

I donate to secular charities that are important to me, but I don't give a set percentage and I've never considered it to be tithing.

[Tradd]

I know some people gripe about Dave Ramsey’s religious component, but I find it’s easy enough to ignore. Get his book from the library and go from there. Even though I’m active in my church, I find that as I get older, I have less tolerance for people who mix religion into everything. For example, Frugal Queen in France is my favorite frugal YT channel, partly because she’s very practical, but also because she doesn’t mix any religion into it.

[nswef]

I just figured tithing was 10% no matter where you donate it. There are plenty or churches or religious groups that would not be happy with my tithing. or 10% ing.

[ToomuchStuff]

I know some people gripe about Dave Ramsey’s religious component, but I find it’s easy enough to ignore. Get his book from the library and go from there. Even though I’m active in my church, I find that as I get older, I have less tolerance for people who mix religion into everything. For example, Frugal Queen in France is my favorite frugal YT channel, partly because she’s very practical, but also because she doesn’t mix any religion into it.

For me, I asked about his group meetings, after my coworkers uncle offered her to go. (doesn't hurt to learn), and at least locally, they were only at churches.
I had better odds of meeting him via our mutual friend then finding a non church get together.