View Full Version : Pets and kids out of control
This will be controversial but needs to be said.
We went cherry picking today at a local orchard. DH is using a cane, I am up a ladder as the remaining cherries are high up. A woman comes by with her dog on a retractable leash and says that she will wait for our ladder.
Her dog roams around the ladder, comes over and sniffs at the basket of picked cherries at DH's feet until DH yells, "Hey!". She finally calls the dog back to her having to disentangle the extended leash.
What is it with people who must take their bloody >:(>:(>:(>:(dogs everywhere? What is it with the lack of control with the retractable leash totally extended in public settings?
I have a dog and use the retractable when there is no one else around. Otherwise, he is on the 6 ft leash and close to me at all times. I certainly don't take him everywhere and especially not to U-pick food farms where he can poo and pee and interfere with paying customers.
My neighbour told me about the restaurant which has banned children due to the large number of children who are again like the dogs allowed to roam at will. It is receiving a lot of discussion in the local media as people are writing in about their bad experiences with badly behaved children spoiling a special outing.
What is going on?
when I go out to a place to eat, I do not want to be seated too close to a table with kids. I am there to have an adult conversation with my companion or friends without being constantly distracted by children. When I was a young parent and took my children out, it was understood how they would behave. If not, I took them outside and had a serious talk with them, if needed, busted their butt. This did not take place inside and it did not happen very often because they knew how they were expected to act in public. That being said, it does take some common sense to know when and if your babies or toddlers are just too tired to be out in public and should be kept at home. Today's parents are in for a rough ride when thier "precious little ones" become teenagers. Discipline and respect are learned and earned over the years.
AmeliaJane
7-14-11, 11:20pm
In terms of rules, I actually work in non-profit institutions, and I follow the conversation about this related to places like museums, libraries, etc. What people seem to find more successful (and I find a lot more palatable) is to establish zones or times related to behavior rather than trying to segregate people by age (or other criteria). For instance--Thursday night is "Quiet Meditation" evening in the galleries. The third floor is the area in the library for phone conversations and socializing; the second floor is for silent reading or computer work. I would admire a restaurant that said, "After 8 PM is our Quiet Conversation and Jazz Evenings. Would your party be comfortable with that, or would you like us to suggest a couple more lively restaurants?" rather than telling a certain group of customers they aren't welcome.
Can't explain the dog thing, though...although I wonder if maybe for some people a dog is a bit of a social crutch. If you are shy, it's an easy way to start chatting...
I am always amazed when people don't control their dogs. The owners seem to think that everyone wants to be jumped on and licked. Big dogs make me uncomfortable and I worry about them jumping on me, so the dog will come up to me and when I don't start petting it the owner just says that he doesn't bite. They never make their pet leave me alone. Ugh.
iris lily
7-15-11, 12:34am
Retractable leashes are bad news.
I know that you, razz, take you dog out regularly so you are aware of good dog ownership behavior. My dogs are tiny and cute and are easy to control, but I hate those big uncontrolled dogs who come galloping up to them. We recently had a small dog mauled and killed by a big dog in our park where dogs regularly run wild. Stupid owners.
As for kids, the issue of bad behavior by children in a restaurant is always good for a row on our local restaurant chat board, although I will say that the current discussion (probably based on the same restaurant) has been tame.
I just do not see badly behaved children in the restaurants we frequent. I truly don't. We don't go to chains which comprise all of the "family friendly" restaurants I know and so I very seldom even SEE children in restaurants, let alone badly behaved children.
I think it's much ado about nothing. Those who have small children are used to a certain amount of disruption and noise and probably go to the family friendly places where I would expect there to be some mild chaos at times. Now, that doesn't mean that their dining experience should be ruined by screaming, running, children, that is never acceptable. Not every family friendly restaurant is McDonalds' Playland and some boorish parents may not realize that.
How do kids learn how to behave in a restaurant if they are never taken there?
IshbelRobertson
7-15-11, 6:41am
My children spent much of their childhood abroad - and like most foreign children, were brought up to be part of a family group in restaurants - AND TO BEHAVE ACCORDINGLY! I cannot understand parents who allow their children to run riot in a restaurant. Like IrisL, though, I avoid chain restaurants and 'children-friendly' places, too.
We were on a Greek island recently - and it was wonderful to sit outside late in the evening, with large Greek families and for the children to be well-behaved and adults who listened/played with their own children.
I have to confess, when I go to a Michelin starred restaurant - I do not want to share my dining experience with noisy, badly-behaved children. Luckily, the prices almost preclude children dining at said places, although I have seen parents, with their children and the children's Norland Nanny, in full uniform!
our biggest issue is not cleaning up the waste. it's very messy. i don't know if it's law here, but I would assume so, and yet, not everyone does it and it is nasty.
my kid went to the beach and was playing in the sand. I didn't look too closely, since there is lots of debris (seaweed), but when i got home, i noted that he was covered in poop. This would be the beach that is "dogless" (he's having dog issues right now. not major, he's just cautious around them, and I think that's right behavior -- so having an excitable puppy or dog come up to him off leash is not great for him emotionally, though). So, technically, there shouldn't be dog poop there anyway. And why would you leave it on the beach?
Then, the two of us went out to another beach, and we were playing around these rocks. this woman and her dog come over, and so we went up on the rocks. Her dog did his business RIGHT WHERE WE WERE PLAYING and then she did NOTHING.
I asked her to clean it up, and she looked at me like I was from mars. And i said, I'm sorry, I know that i'm new here, but doesn't Wellington have a law that you clean up after your dog in public places? And in particular, since your dog pooped where my son was just building a castle, and we'd only climbed the rocks because he's nervous around big dogs (this was a big rottie), could you please clean it up so that we could return to playing?
And she said "no. it's YOUR problem."
it is, really?
and this dog was not on a leash, so when I saw him take off toward us, i encouraged DS to climb up, not knowing the dog anyway. And yes, there are also leash laws, and some beaches that are leash-free, but nearly *every* beach here has a leash law, including the one we were on.
so, yeah, i don't get why rules don't apply to some people. particularly when it's super yucky for everyone else.
I agree with IL and AmeliaJane on the kid thing. I can see banning kids after a certain hour. I go to a restuarant sometimes that is 21+ after 9PM. That makes sense to me. Banning them all together does not. Honestly, can't think of the last time I saw kids misbehaving at a restaurant and parents not responding. Most of the time if the kids start fussing the parents take them outside. That's what I do. Most of the kids I know are pretty well behaved, and I know a lot of kids.
I see some dogs off-leash, which bothers me.
oh, and on the restaurant thing, DS has always been great in restaurants. We usually take him during slower times, of course, and he likes to "campaign for mayor" (or did as an infant) -- meeting and greeting people. he was rarely rebuffed, but he could usually tell who didn't want to talk to him. and this was a small prt of the time -- usually chatting with people who obviously flirted with him, too.
but, i wouldn't see myself going to a fancy, fancy restaurant. I did, accidently, take DS to one here (i just needed a bite, and so did he, and I ducked into the first restaurant I saw -- it was in our first few days), luckily, it was well off time (they'd just opened at 3:30), and we were the only ones there. DS and I sat in the corner, he behaved beautifully, and the wait staff and chef came and had a chat with us. It was actually really nice. DS was 1.5 or so at the time.
He's a bit more to manage now; so we go to places that have a toy basket. when we go out at all. which is rarely.
I often see children behaving horrendously in public. Not just the occassional naughtiness, either. Running around, screaming tantrums, throwing food, climbing up shelves or under tables. I find it really annoying, but I don't fault the kids. They haven't been taught any better. I do want to slap the parents, though.
We had otherwise very nice friends who were very poor dog owners. They rescued a stray off the streets. They did not train or learn to control the dog because "they felt sorry for her". She was a very large fearful and protective dog which is a horrible combination.
As a result, the dog seriously bit a neighbor, while on a leash. They had the dog euthanized. If properly trained, it would never have happened.
Some people just should not own dogs and some just should not have kids.
As far as animals (dogs) go in public, it boils down to good dog-ownership, and as far as young children go (being the mom of six), it's all about knowing when and where to take ones children, how far to push the envelope as far as schedules go i.e. bedtimes, etc, and when to put your foot down and make a stand in regards to either, one, removing the problem child from the restaurant and promptly taking them home, two, taking the unruly child outside for a good straightening, or three, not taking the children out in the first place. (I swear there are parents out there who have little to no common sense). Dog owners alike.
We were out for supper a number of years ago and there was a family sitting at a table (directly next to us). One of the children (a young girl) was physically upset, pouting, not eating, and generally being miserable. I don't know what exactly transpired beforehand that let up to the events that unfolded, but the girl did not want to be there (plain and simple) and let her family know it. Reaching her breaking point, the mother grabbed the child by the arm and marched her outside. A few minutes later they reemerged with the girl crying. (I presume the child got a spanking).
Then, no sooner after the child was sat down at the table, the child's upset slowly began bubbling and boiling again until it reached another crescendo, this time the father took her outside. A long time passed before they reemerged but when they did it was obvious that he had given her a good old-fashioned what-for because the child couldn't control her cries or her gasps for air. Pathetic!
Incompetent parenting irritates me more than an unruly child. At least with a child, you expect it, because that's what children do, they act like children, but parents bent and determined to see their children act like saints while out in public, wake up parents! And parents batting a blind eye to their children scurrying about, being disruptive, and generally being a nuisance, it's the parents I'd like to spank, not the kids. (Common sense, it costs nothing).
Mrs. Hermit
7-15-11, 9:26am
Some of my nieces and nephews were raised without knowledge of social norms or expectations. Their parents said that "They will figure it out themselves." They were terrors in restaurants or public places: throwing fits, throwing food, getting their parents thrown out of restaurants. I felt sorry for the kids. They really didn't know any better.
The dogs thing gets me too. It is like people take their dogs places they would have taken their kids, and expect the dogs to be as accepted as children are. Even in motels, there are rooms for people bringing pets. Any street fair I attend now has become an obstacle course of long leashes and circling dogs, not to mention the inevitable piles to avoid.
I asked her to clean it up, and she looked at me like I was from mars. And i said, I'm sorry, I know that i'm new here, but doesn't Wellington have a law that you clean up after your dog in public places? And in particular, since your dog pooped where my son was just building a castle, and we'd only climbed the rocks because he's nervous around big dogs (this was a big rottie), could you please clean it up so that we could return to playing?
And she said "no. it's YOUR problem."
I think I would have responded, "Perhaps it is. But, unlike you, at least my problem isn't that I'm a selfish asshole."
I'm with Kat, want to slap the parents AND dog owners. I see plenty of misbehaving kids and dogs. There's a common denominator - the parents/owners don't control them.
My big bugaboo is the way some kids behave in church - probably because I spend a lot of time there. Where the choir is (up front, on the right) and where I stand (facing congregation) I have a good view of virtually the entire congregation. There are some inconsiderate parents. I'm not talking regular kid noise or a toddler walking around a bit in the back with a parent right there. I'm talking kids screaming bloody murder for a long time with parents not taking them out. Kids - even 4-5 year olds! - allowed to run loose in the middle aisle, running up and down, rolling on the floor, etc. My priest is pretty laid back, but not too long ago a kid allowed to run loose interfered with the altar boys during the offertory, and as the kids running around has really decreased, I'm inclined to believe he may have said something to the parents.
I was in a kind of different situation. I was visiting family and my sister arranged for the whole lot of us to go to a favorite restaurant where we would meet up with a nephew and his daughter, who is around 1. (mom was at work) Well, the nephew shows up and the kid is obviously tired, and she started screaming. I don't mean just fussing or squirming, but screaming blood curdling screams! In the restaurant. He just sat there. I tried to gently suggest that maybe she needed fresh air, or something like that, but was poo pooed by both my sisters. I was mortified and felt horrendous for the other diners in the restaurant, but couldn't, for family peace reasons, demand he take her outside. Everyone kept saying she'll quiet down after a bit, but I kept thinking, so in the meantime all these other people who are also trying to have family dinners, etc.. have to just suck it up? I was so embarrassed. My kids would never have done that and if they did they would be out of there in a heartbeat. I didn't expect him to spank her or anything, she is after all 1, but just remove her. That's all. It makes me angry just thinking about it. Even more so when I know if her mom had been there, she would have been removed for the restaurant immediately.
Oh well, live and learn...and avoid family dinners in restaurants in the future. My family dinners!
I'm with Kat, want to slap the parents AND dog owners. I see plenty of misbehaving kids and dogs. There's a common denominator - the parents/owners don't control them.
My big bugaboo is the way some kids behave in church - probably because I spend a lot of time there. Where the choir is (up front, on the right) and where I stand (facing congregation) I have a good view of virtually the entire congregation. There are some inconsiderate parents. I'm not talking regular kid noise or a toddler walking around a bit in the back with a parent right there. I'm talking kids screaming bloody murder for a long time with parents not taking them out. Kids - even 4-5 year olds! - allowed to run loose in the middle aisle, running up and down, rolling on the floor, etc. My priest is pretty laid back, but not too long ago a kid allowed to run loose interfered with the altar boys during the offertory, and as the kids running around has really decreased, I'm inclined to believe he may have said something to the parents.
Oh Tradd, the very best handling of just such a situation I saw was at a school meeting. The Jr High had just been built and the community was invited to meet the principal and teachers and take a tour. Sitting up front was one inconsiderate mother who let her 4/5 year old run around and wrestle on the floor right in front of the stage. I guess she thought it was cute. Well, the principal was talking and this kid was just sucking the air out of the whole room with his antics and the guy just stopped talking and stared at the kid. And he just stood there, center stage, staring until the mother realized what he was doing and grabbed her kid and left. We didn't applaud, but certainly wanted to. Needless to say this principal got glowing reviews.
I'm personally all for the business owner who decided to ban children under 6. Apparently others agree because I read this morning that his business has increased by 20% since he did it. His is a very small restaurant and it would be virtually impossible to ignore a disruptive child no matter where they were seated. I don't think it would be fair if it was all restaurants, but the owner should be the one to decide what atmosphere he wants in his establishment. They know the limitations of their space.
I know of one higher end restaurant that had a bar in another room that you could wait for your table in. This was a very expensive seafood restaurant. They ultimately closed the door to the bar with a sign on it that said no one under 18 could enter. It had gotten to the point where you couldn't hear yourself think or move around in there because of all the strollers.
I live in a tourism destination town that is largely visited by couples seeking a romantic getaway. We have a lot of very nice restaurants and shops. When my best friend is in town we often go out to dinner so we can catch up with each other's lives. If she has her very out of control 3 year old grandson with her, I flatly refuse to go if she's bringing him along. I've learned the hard way that not only do we not get to talk, but everyone around us has to deal with him as well. On more than one occasion I've been horribly embarrassed about how disruptive our table was and what a mess was made. Not wanting to bring him to these nicer restaurants is a matter of courtesy to the visitors that drive our economy.
This thread brings back memories. One standard I've always had in my home is "we behave while out", no exceptions to the rule. Infractions and those determined to test my ways were dealt with sternly and strictly when we arrived back home again. (Spanking was commom place back then in the Mizerly household).
As my ways progressed and after the baby boys were settled in with us, I dropped spanking from my child-rearing tool list and adopted a more subtle approach as to how we act while out. My rule was simple, "if you can't behave while out, then you have to stay at home with a babysitter". No exceptions. And, all of my kids knew what going to town with mom equated to. (Town trips always meant treats and surprises).
Anyhow, it wasn't until the youngest had entered the terrible two's stage (and yes, he entered it with panache) where he decided to test the waters as to moms new rule. Well, he found out the hard way. Car was promptly turned around, him along with the diaper bag were dropped off in the company and care of my SIL, then back to town the rest of us went.
Then, the following week when town time came due again, I informed the youngest that he would be staying at home this time with a sitter, because he couldn't behave himself the last time. I never had to leave any of my kids at home with a sitter again (account misbehaving) after that. No spanking, no getting all upset and mad and angry, just "no, you aren't ready to join the family until you learn how to behave". Unbelievably effective in our home.
I wonder if some of the increase others are noticing in misbehaviour in restaurants is due in part to a decrease in family dinners. My kids and most of the well behaved kids I know, are used to sitting around a table, talking in indoor voices, waiting patiently, etc. If a kid complains or is disruptive at our family dinner table they are dismissed or removed from the table. It's kind of a natural thing, then, when we are out to eat that the house dinner rules apply there too.
Like I said, most of the kids I know do have family dinners, but I know that nation-wide family dinners are on the decline.
As someone who has two extremely well-behaved dogs, I appreciate that I can take them with me these days, even to a coffee shop patio or a nice hotel. They do not approach other people unless invited, and they are quiet, gentle guys...good in public. We were given a stay at a hotel in Santa Fe where they were brought treats by the housekeeping staff and where they had the doors opened for them by a doorman (the little pug thought, I'm sure, "Finally, now THIS is the way I'm supposed to be treated..." :) ) and when we checked out some front desk folks were surprised that we had dogs with us -- they are so low-impact that people rarely know they're there.
But I detest people who are too ignorant, inconsiderate, self-centered, or just plain lazy to teach their pets how to behave in public. They really do ruin it for those of us who are willing to do the work of making our pets good citizens. I swear, sometimes I think there ought to be an exam before people are allowed to take on the responsibility of pets.
It's funny how different things can be in different cultures. Here in China, restaurant meals are generally quite boisterous affairs -- even (and sometimes especially) in very upscale places. There is also generally a very family-centered, pro-child attitude. So lots of people bring their kids to meals out and if they run around and make noise it isn't a huge deal because often the adults are making even more noise! And table manners? ANother very different concept. Making a mess is kind of expected. After a big Chinese banquet the floor and table will be littered with bones, cigarette ash, etc. Oh, and one of the best things about China is that the waitstaff in just about any place you go to will become like temporary nannies for your 1-3 year old kid -- sometimes I didn't even manage to sit down before they were whisking my kids off to see the fish tank, etc.
So, if you want a relaxing family vacation where you get regular free child care and can actually eat your meals in peace, come to China! Or maybe try your local Chinese restaurant, where attitudes may be similar.
lhamo
Lhamo that is really interesting! I love hearing about cultural differences.
Mrs. Hermit
7-15-11, 9:03pm
Stella, you may be on to something there. Some teens my kids have over are afraid to eat dinner with us--they have NEVER sat down to dinner at the same table as their parents. They really have no idea how to behave. And it goes beyond which fork to use (at our house, the rule is to use THE fork. And it is enforced). These teens have no clue about conversing with adults, or how to ask for things to be passed, or when to start eating (after grace). I've thought about having a full-dress sit down fancy dinner to help these wonderful kids learn social skills.
i think that it might be off topic, but I want to point out that there are ways of disciplining that do not involve threats or violence toward children and encourage boundaries, self esteem, and an entirely calm process.
there are two elements -- Mrs. M has already stated one, which is understanding your child's specific needs/mood/etc, and the second is really being clear in the appropriate boundaries.
i think that you really have to be willing to allow the child to be tired and take care of the situation. I know that there are times when I want to sit and have a nice cup of tea at the cafe (where there is a box of toys) but if DS is just not doing well, it's better that I leave and take him home. Thankfully, the cafe is quite nice in wrapping things up for me (the owner is a dad of a little guy about 6 months younger than our son) quickly, and just being nice overall. As a parent, i think understanding and accommodating for your child's needs is important.
And that means, also, in regards to the timing of things. So often, parents are rushing through everything. To get DS out the door to the bus without any tension, it takes me about 30 minutes. Sometimes, we are ready for the bus 25 minutes early. Other days, we barely make it. It depends upon his mood and his needs that day. I give the extra time to accommodate those needs. They are an important consideration. he is joining me in the process, rather than feeling like he's being pulled away from his activities by force because of something that he didn't intend to do (eg, he didn't make the dental appointment!).
But, the harder aspect is this second one. It is harder, no doubt. And the way we do it is very gentle and because of this, takes *a lot* of extra time up front.
This is honestly the story of my parenting. Put in the effort up front, and it pays of great.
Foremost, how we treat each other (DH and I) is great mirroring. We do a lot of please and thank you (and it's not 'put on' -- we are like this anyway). I thank DH for very simple things, and I did for DS too. For example, when we would potty him, I would always say "thanks for letting me potty you!" or "thanks for letting me put your pants back on so quickly!" and so on. And, when we ask him to do something, it's usually with a "please." And to encourage positivity around that, i usually ask him to do something he is already doing. Eg, he seems interested in helping with the laundry, and I say "will you please help me with the laundry?" and he says "yes!" and I say "thank you!" and then afterwards, I say "thank you for your help. it gets the job done much faster!" THen he feels proud. When his dad comes home and asks aobut our time together, Hawk will say what he remembers, and then I will say "and he helped with the laundry today! it was a big help!" and then DH reflects how nice it was for him to help.
So, we use this a lot. It's "positive reinforcement" but it's not about value such as "good boy!" good boy is saying you are good for your actions. DS is inherently good. Our responses to his actions are positive or neutral. Yes, sometimes I misbehave and act out towards him (usually when i'm hungry! LOL), but otherwise, it's really about keeping the perspective. By using please and thank you -- which, as i said, i do naturally with everyone -- we are acknowledging the behavior that helps.
We also acknowledge when he does something "right" socially. I even use terms such as "that is an example of good manners." and "thanks for using good manners." This indicates that it is a social behavior, and not about whether or not he is "good" or "right" -- but that he is behaving in a way that is socially acceptable.
it takes patience, it takes care, it takes vigilance, and it takes giving up when you want to do something. If i want to have a cup of tea at the cafe, but DS's behavior is disruptive to the other guests, then I need to get up from the table, quietly pack up, and start heading home. That's what it is. I don't always get to do what I want.
But it is better that DS feels that he is a part of the community, that he is good and right, and that his behavior impacts others -- and that he wants to do impact people positively.
We can, quite literally, pretty much take DS *anywhere*. He's amazingly well behaved so long as his needs are met and accommodated along the way (forethought and observation in planning the trip, etc). And, he very much does what we ask as soon as we ask. But we had to put in the effort up front.
An example is holding hands while walking down the street. Between home and park/bus/etc, we have to hold hands. This is obviously a safety issue, but explain that to a 2 yr old. They dont' know or care at that point. LOL
So, the process was about acting. When we would leave the house, if he didn't hold hands, we would simply pick him up and take him right back home. No yelling, no comments beyond "we need to hold hands when we walk on the street. so to be safe, we're going home." The third time it happened was the last. Now -- over a year later -- he insists on holding hands even when we are in a very safe place for him to walk beside us independently. He does hike without holding hands *unless* we hear a dog. Dogs can go unleased on trails, and so I say "if you see or hear a dog, come and hold hands." But he didn't need telling more than once.
and by the by, it amazes me that children my son's age can't use cutlery. he was using cutlery (including a knife) at age 1. I think that's baby-lead weaning, though.
he watched us use forks, he started using a fork. He does eat with his fingers -- finger foods though. Everything else, he uses cutlery. And he uses a napkin properly, too. he usually asks for an extra one or two when the waitstaff come over. He often says "I try to eat like a gentleman, but sometimes I'm messy. So more napkins really help. Could you please bring some extra ones for me?" And yes, he talks like that. He has crazy verbal skillZ.
but, i do know that many children do not have table manners because they were never taught. it's shocking. But, i know a fair few people my own age (35) who seem to lack basic table (and other) manners.
it's amazing. "kids these days! what is the world coming to!?"
I think the lack of regular family dinners contributes, but I think that the crazy schedules that many families have are a large factor. Many people have little respect for a reasonable bedtime for kids, and take them to a restaurant or store when they should be home getting ready for bed. Not because kids shouldn't be out past some random hour that someone designates, but because kids get TIRED and CRANKY! The average amount of sleep recommended for kids up to about age 7 is 12 hours/night. My 8-year old still sleeps that much during the school year, and about 10 hours/night during the summer.
We have been able to take DD anywhere since she was about 2. Before then, we didn't really eat out because she was a really fussy baby/toddler. We avoid scheduled activities that mess up the dinner-bed routine, or find ways to work around them. Last night we went to see an outdoor performance that started at 7pm. We needed to be there early to get good seats so DD would be able to see. I packed a picnic and we left our house at 6, and had dinner at the venue at a fairly normal time for us. That's a once-in-a-while, usually summer-only kind of schedule for us. During the school year, we don't do late evening activities.
Stella. I think you make a superb point Re: family suppers together. We eat (as a family) all the time. It's something I feel strongly about and my family knows it. I feel really put out when we all can't be together as one (at least when it comes to supper).
I've mentioned it before on the boards, i.e., the lack of family closeness and structure nowadays. It's such a key and vital importance IMO in establishing all things good related to both family and kids.
Zoebird. I love your posts so much! You always have excellent insight, superb advice, and everything you touch on (so it seems) you do so thoroughly.
I'd like to start by talking about positive reinforcement. PR nowadays, I see little of, yet PR is so important in the establishment of a child's self-esteem and foundation. Seldom does a day go by (in our home) where I don't say to one (or more) of my kids, "job well done"! Or, "thanks so much for helping out". Along with positive reassurance (reinforcement) comes big warm hugs (all part of PR). Society today, through it's ill-mannered level of understanding doesn't recognize the importance of family strength and structure, so PR falls by wayside. The only thing society today recognizes is competitiveness on the scale of accumulation and possession and outdoing. (Greed and materialistic things).
This is easily recognized and reflects the lack of strongly formed family units (we're seeing today), the units we all know and are familiar with and remember when we were being raised). We (as a whole) have lost our direction, particularly as parents, in understanding the fundamental needs of raising well-adjusted children and what exactly that curtails in successfully achieving that goal. In simple terms, parenting has lost it's step and we need to gain that step back again.
When I look at and examine standardized parenting today, I don't see patience, and I definitely don't see vigilance. Two key and vitally important factors that ensure direction and values in children. You bring back memories for me Zoebird in mentioning the holding hands thing. When my kids reached the toddling stage and were branching out and reaching all places I didn't want them to be, I was always there to redirect them, then as time progressed I remember we started venturing out and crossing streets. In the very beginning I held onto them all the time, but as they got older and gained an understanding as to the ways I taught them, hand holding was only required when we crossed the street, and we always did that together. Wonderful warm memories.
Our world has become much too hurried today, we need to slow down. (Parents need to slow down).
Touching on helping make a child feel proud, I remember when I started toilet training my second youngest. It was a challenge because in the children's old environment (pre-Mizerly family environment), they were neglected and abused, so were lacking in basic cognitive development. Nonetheless, I remember the toddler regressing badly and acting out for attention when I had him out of diapers. He would see me changing the baby and wanted changing too, so through a carefully planned agenda I began telling him how big he was, an how fast he had grown compared to his baby brother, and how (as a mommy) I needed his help when changing the baby. I started off slowly, introducing him to the likes of holding safety pins for me at change time, then when I needed a pin I'd say to him, "OK, pass mommy a pin". I also had him fetch clean diapers from the drawer in the bedroom, and wetting down washcloths under the sink in the bathroom and wringing them out for me (his favourite)!
As days turned to weeks, the toddler became so offering the instant he knew I was about to change the baby, that he'd call out to me, "I get the washcloth mommy"! And away he'd go! It was the cutest thing ever to watch, and I never intervened by telling him that I didn't need a washcloth, I just allowed him to do it at every change. He would even bring in a diaper from the dresser drawer for me (without being asked), and he even willingly took wet diapers and pants to the bathroom for me so he could put them in the diaper pail. I'd carefully roll up and wrap the wet diaper up inside the rubber pants, then tell him, "grab here", (elastic waistband of rubber pants), then I'd tell him, "hold on tight, don't drop them". It was a favourite of his! Opening and closing the lid of the diaper pail and firing those diapers inside! The pride that emitted from that kids face! Priceless!
Ihamo. I love the likes of children being lovingly guided by the waitstaff! How sweet! Fish tanks and kids go so hand-in-hand don't they.
Rosemary. You make another excellent point Re: children's sleep. I would venture to say that a lot of kids nowadays are not getting the required amount of sleep they need.
This slowing down thing . . . it's another post altogether, so I'll go there. :D
fidgiegirl
7-16-11, 7:29pm
Mrs. M, are some of your children adopted? I find myself in big time awe of adoptive parents. All parents, but particularly adoptive ones.
Zoebird. Looking forward to visiting your new thread! See you there! :)
Fidgiegirl. Our youngest two (both boys) are the ones we took into our lives for lovin'! In the very beginning it was a roller-coaster ride of sorts (for me), as it's challenging raising someone else's children the way you have chosen to raise your own. Somehow giving birth to a child and seeing them into this world from the very start makes it easier to be the mom (parent) related to who you are and choose to be, but when a child has already been introduced into this world and has to endure an entirely whole new other method of rearing that they aren't used to, it makes for some awfully trying times. (With that said, there is/was no comparison as to my parenting style as compared to the boys moms style of parenting (if you can call it that), so that in itself helped me see my way through the transition more easily). i.e. No spanking, unlimited/unconditional love, proper balanced schedules (feedings, sleep, etc), a wholesome and nutritious diet, fresh air, exercise, etc.
One thing I believe that made all the difference in the world with our family, was that my daughters took on mom roles the instant the boys were settled, but even more so (over and above that), my oldest daughter would actually get up in the middle of the night and take the little one back to bed with her if he woke. The boys were blanketed with love and affection and hugs and kisses like they had never been blanketed with the likes of ever before, so to this day I firmly believe that it is because of that love why they are so happy, well-balanced, and content. The love was tremendous. The difference between night and day from their old living arrangement.
There have been times in my life were I have wished that I could see into the mind of a baby or child, just so I could understand what they were thinking and feeling at the time, yet even though we (as humans) aren't able to do that, I still feel I know what went through the boys minds when they were finally with us for good. There was a strange settling that occurred in both of them. They began sleeping again (like babies should sleep), eating and laughing, and not wanting to let go when they were held. The bond was incredible. Such a warm and rewarding feeling.
It's an entirely different form and style of parenting, but what a pleasure it is!
To add, I mention "different" in my closing sentence, and what I mean by different is, different only from the start. Then, it's as if (like magic) there's a dusting of fairy sand that precipitates downward, casting it's spell on all who it graces, then the day comes when you find yourself saying to yourself, "these are my kids". It's funny because today, I see them as my own kids even through birth. Sounds crazy I know, but somehow raising them from the time they were babies (I think) changes the way a mother warms to a child.
i find that the kids parented with such love (whether bio or adopted) are real lovies. my guy loves to love. we wake up in the morning and his first thing is "I love you mommy and daddy. Lets snuggle!" and that can last a good hour. LOL which means we kinda get to sleep in.
fidgiegirl
7-17-11, 12:21am
Lovely. How very lucky they are :)
Fidgiegirl, Adoptive parents are parents just like any other. My DD join our family through adoption, but she is my child and I am her parent. Adoptive dropped out of our vocabulary when describing our relationship from day one. This doesnt mean we don't discuss her adoption privately when she needs to, but it isn't who we are as mom and daughter.
Hope I don't sound snarky, but I always feel a bit rankled when relationships are qualified with adoption/bio status. Admittedly, this is an issue close to my heart.
Zoebird. Sometimes I get sad knowing not every child gets to enjoy unlimited love and care.
Fidgiegirl. Thank you. :)
Rvk62. Congratulations to you on adopting your daughter. On the front of qualifying relationships on the basis of whether or not children in the family were introduced into the world biologically through adoption, I really don't think it's like that per se. I just think people tend to be curious as to the status of children when possible adoption is present.
To this day I'm interested in parents who have adopted, talking with them about it, sharing my experiences with them. In my eyes it doesn't question the whole idea of whether or not the family with an adopted child or children are an actual real family unit or not, it's more about knowing (and confirming) there are still loving and dedicated parents out there who cherish the idea of taking in and adopting a child into their lives and calling the child/children their own (forever).
I recall being at the park one day with my youngest four and a lady in her 50's approached. I could tell right away she took a shine to the kids and was cherishing watching them play, and so she sat down beside me. Her first question to me was, "are they all yours"? I responded with a smile and replied, "yes, all four, with two more at home". Then we laughed and talked and talked.
I sort of pick and choose my times as to when and where, or if I feel like divulging (or not) the details as to the status of my youngest two. I agree, there are people who are judgmental and hypocritical over others, but the experiences I've had related to people asking and wanting to know have all been warm and caring, Like Fidgiegirl's.
Something else I'd like to mention. I think for people, particularly people who don't have children, adoptive parenthood is interesting. I know this because of some of the questions I've been asked by others. Questions like, "was it difficult to accept them as your own", or, "do you look at them today in a different light", or, "would you do it all over again". I'm OK with people's curiosity because adoption is different. Yes, it's still parenting through and through, but I believe people (for the most part) are taken by, are warmed inside by, and are somehow soothed by the actions of a family with the love, the care, and the dedication, to open the door of their home to a perfect little stranger and call that little stranger their very own. I know it warms me inside each and every day to know there are other families just like ours. It's very special.
You know that's kind of funny Mrs M, talking about the lady at the park. I've asked that question myself and never in the world was asking if any were adopted! When my kids were young whenever we went to the park we usually had a few neighbor kids tag along. I'm sure the woman was just asking if they were all your kids or a mix of yours and someone else's. Big families are the exception now days, and asking if they are all yours is more of a conversation starter instead of a personal inquiry.
You know that's kind of funny Mrs M, talking about the lady at the park. I've asked that question myself and never in the world was asking if any were adopted! When my kids were young whenever we went to the park we usually had a few neighbor kids tag along. I'm sure the woman was just asking if they were all your kids or a mix of yours and someone else's. Big families are the exception now days, and asking if they are all yours is more of a conversation starter instead of a personal inquiry.Your right, and thinking back on it now, I think that's how I more or less took her opening question. I definitely took no offense to it. And yes, absolutely, the thought did cross my mind as to the lady thinking I may have been caring for someone else's child or two along with one or two of my own, but I was just saying.
I'm selective and pick and choose as to who I tell, when I tell them, where I tell them, or if I even feel like telling them. I use my own discretion and judge myself in relation to the person involved and how they inquire (and how I feel at the time). Adding, I find that when I overlook mentioning the fact that my two boys are adopted, I tend to forget about their hurtful past, a past that still haunts me (to this day). It's simply my way of moving on and accepting that I am their mom 100%.
Mrs m, thanks for the congratulations but my baby is now a big middle schooler. I agree that being selective about sharing you child's adoption story is important, primarily because it your child's origin story. I guess what I was trying to say is that I would hope that in general conversation and commentary, there is no need to distinguish between bio/ adopted kids.
As mothers through adoption, we both know how special and magical it is...truly fairy dust and answered prayers!
Rvk62. I so agree, answered prayers and blessings.
But I detest people who are too ignorant, inconsiderate, self-centered, or just plain lazy to teach their pets how to behave in public. They really do ruin it for those of us who are willing to do the work of making our pets good citizens. I swear, sometimes I think there ought to be an exam before people are allowed to take on the responsibility of pets.
Our dog was a six month old rescue. He came to us with separation anxiety, fear-based aggression, and lacking basic socialization skills. I'm not sure what his story was pre-rescue but I know a German Shepherd attacked him when the caretaker had him at the vet to get his shots (which might be where the fear-based aggression either started or really became firmly implanted). We've spent quite a few hundred on training for both us and him to get to a point where we can at least maintain control over the situation when another dog walks by (which we generally can only control by quickly heeling and walking away from the other dog; hopefully before ours spots the other).
And, since we never know what might trigger a flare-up with another dog, his social interaction has stayed, unfortunately, very isolated.
On the people front, he's extremely affectionate and gets overwhelmed when people stop over to visit. Of course, any training in that department requires the help of the other person and, in spite of my coaching on how to react to our dog's jumping and licking, people are almost never willing to listen to me. They'd rather have the slobbers and they tell me "oh, I don't mind that he's jumping on me". even though I always come back with "well, but I mind. Can you help me teach him not to do this" it's fruitless.
He's almost 11 years old now and it'll only be a few more years before, well, his behavior isn't a problem any more. We're not one of those people that you'll see with a misbehaved dog in public; we're too considerate to bring him anywhere.. plus the danger of him attacking another dog is too great. But, it's not for lack of work or money that he's how he is.
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4028/4465220638_ae9db6aae5.jpg
My DW still very clearly remembers a car ride to spend the weekend with her grandparents. She was 5. It was about 30 minutes from her house to her grandparents and her grandpa came over to pick her up. She was acting up and he told her that if she didn't stop, he was going to turn the car around and drop her back home. Well, she decided to start up again and he kept his word and brought her back home. That was the last time she misbehaved with her grandparents.
That's the biggest thing I remember growing up as well. Not the punishments, but the follow-through. I also remember being given more responsibility and freedom as I showed I was capable of handling it. Of course, there were screw ups along the way.. it's part of life. But, there was a certain level of consistency.
I do notice a lack of that with the 'problem kids' I see around me. Then again, I'm sure I have a bias to spot it too. The parent threatens some sort of punishment, then don't follow through, then threaten some sort of punishment. The kids are smart enough to know that if the bad things don't happen until the third time, then they'll wait until then to mind.
I wonder if some of the increase others are noticing in misbehaviour in restaurants is due in part to a decrease in family dinners. My kids and most of the well behaved kids I know, are used to sitting around a table, talking in indoor voices, waiting patiently, etc. If a kid complains or is disruptive at our family dinner table they are dismissed or removed from the table. It's kind of a natural thing, then, when we are out to eat that the house dinner rules apply there too.
Like I said, most of the kids I know do have family dinners, but I know that nation-wide family dinners are on the decline.
I think that my be a good part of it. I know that my daycare child (6 year old I've been caring for since he was 18 mo) is perfectly behaved when dh and I take him out to dinner. We can take him just about anywhere and for the most part have always been able to. He's also eaten with us at the table for breakfast, lunch and occasionally dinner. Breakfast at our house is a hot meal that the entire family sits for. His parents can't take him out without him being out of control. They refuse to take him to restaurants. At home he eats at the breakfast bar by himself most nights and occassionally a family meal occurs in front of the television set in the living room. Expectations for behavior are very different and it shows.
Benhyr. Your furry friend is so handsome and proud looking! Absolutely adorable!
Yes, I can't help but elaborate on the success of turning the car around when a warning has been issued. Worked for me wonderfully! In fact it has all the underpinnings that any child will long remember after. As far as punishments and discipline go, I have always been firm and stern in my direction once I've stated something. (No turning back, no half measures). Whether it was a spanking back when I used to spank, a grounding, or something as simple as a standard "no", I never wobbled or teetered, and my kids knew it. (They still know it). That in itself is lacking in many kids today.
If there is one thing I could go back and change, that would be spanking. I would never have started spanking had I known the success rate of other forms of correction. But it was just so easy (at the time) to choose that form of punishment over all else, because that's the way I was raised, DH, too, so for me it came automatic. But, as with all things, we live and learn and grow.
Artist. What a wonderful story! So nice to know your charge is a complete and utter gentleman when he's around you and out with you. :)
My husband stopped a woman in the check out at the market the other day. He told her it was refreshing to see a parent who is not afraid to parent her children. Mom had told her younger (2ish) son to not open the bag of goldfish and when he didn't listen she removed it from him and firmly informed him that she told him not to open it and now he would have to wait until tomorrow to eat his goldfish crackers because he chose not to listen.
It was just the right amount of encouragment and support that she needed, to know she was doing the right thing. She was clearly tired, you could see that, but she stood a little straighter leaving the market than she had been while standing in line.
I think it's important that we give parents who are doing a good job, the occasional WTG when we see it.
Gosh Artist, I'm such a poor reader to start with, but as I started reading the opening sentence of your post and read the words "bag of goldfish" my mind instantly conjured up a scenario and image, but then when I came upon the words, "he would have to wait until tomorrow to eat his goldfish" I was floored! LMAO! The word "crackers" coming a wee bit too late in your story. :) Funny stuff!
All funnies aside, it's refreshing to see a parent be stern and controlling when due. I recall a time when I still had only my first two, we were out shopping and hour after hour my oldest worked on stepping up her campaign to irritate mom. Finally, reaching my breaking point- and with miles of things left to still do around town, I marched both kids into the mall bathroom, spanked my daughter, then allowed her a little time to gather her composure before exiting the bathroom again. While DS and I were waiting for DD to settle down, a fairly elderly lady came in and right away said out loud, "oh my, why all the tears"? It's never a comfortable situation to admit to anyone that you just spanked your child, but I came right out and said, something to the effect of, "someone was misbehaving all day long and got a spanking". The lady showed no ill remorse and as she walked past me to use the stall, she winked at me as if to say- job well done my dear. It made me laugh deep down inside, but what a pick-me-up it was!
P.S. Way to go on your husbands part in complimenting the mother!
I am a preschool teacher and one the most powerful lessons I can teach my students is about behavior and consequences. One hot topic in my classroom is choosing your seat for snack (major in the preschool social world). I only put out enough seats for the number of children, so not everyone will get the seat he/she is hoping for. This can result in tears and loud verbal protests. I say in my most cheerful voice, "I am so sorry you did not get the seat you wanted, but you can choose again tomorrow." I smile and point to a free chair. If the crying continues, I ask the student to sit in the book nook and come to the table when he or she is ready. I cannot count the number of times parent helpers try to pull out an extra chair or try to get everyone to switch seats. When I explain that the lesson is diminished when we alter the classroom procedures in response to crying, I am almost always met with anger or anxiety. But within 20 seconds, the upset child gains control and sits to eat a snack. I think parents are so concerned about keeping their child in a perpetual state of extreme happiness, they forget that life's lessons come from all sorts of experiences.
I am a preschool teacher and one the most powerful lessons I can teach my students is about behavior and consequences. One hot topic in my classroom is choosing your seat for snack (major in the preschool social world). I only put out enough seats for the number of children, so not everyone will get the seat he/she is hoping for. This can result in tears and loud verbal protests. I say in my most cheerful voice, "I am so sorry you did not get the seat you wanted, but you can choose again tomorrow." I smile and point to a free chair. If the crying continues, I ask the student to sit in the book nook and come to the table when he or she is ready. I cannot count the number of times parent helpers try to pull out an extra chair or try to get everyone to switch seats. When I explain that the lesson is diminished when we alter the classroom procedures in response to crying, I am almost always met with anger or anxiety. But within 20 seconds, the upset child gains control and sits to eat a snack. I think parents are so concerned about keeping their child in a perpetual state of extreme happiness, they forget that life's lessons come from all sorts of experiences.
Thanks for that reminder rvk62 --- I find myself caving at times, and it's not so much their extreme happiness as it is my happiness of "OK, whatever - now please just be quiet". I don't always have the patience or mindset to make every single instance a learning experience.
I know that's super lame and boy do I pay for it (and my kids too).
Here's what I'm faced with lately -- my daughter who is 3.5 is just bossy, bossy, bossy. 'Give it to me' vs. 'May I have this please?'
This is one point that my DH and I ARE super consistent with - to require that she make polite requests vs. demands - and we do not respond to demands.
At what age will she be capable of polite requests without prompting more consistently?
I totally can't remember when my now 7 y.o. started to get it.
She will ever so occasionally do it on her own and we just praise, praise, praise her when she does.
It's driving me bananas.
Hang in there, Mtn laurel, sounds like you and DH are doing the right think. I used to have a student who would just shout out one word commands at snack time, "juice!" or " cracker!". The first few times he did it, I was stunned. The third time he did it, I filled the cups of those kids at the table who had asked rather than commanded. When he pointed out his lack of juice, I said, "well, I didn't her you ask a question, I just heard you say a word." And then I verbalized the correct and polite form of request. It took a good six weeks to break this habit. After a while, the other children would prompt him or remind him. Whenever he would ask nicely, I always acknowledged it. It became something he was really proud of.
At three, your daughter is just beginning to explore these social skills. I would have lots of patience (hard I know) and just continue to model, prompt and praise. By 4 or 4.5 she should be more consistent. :)
i definitely give parents the "WTG" and a friend of mine actually printed out cards for it. she signs them, too. she has ones for "WTG with your breastfeeding!" and "Awesome parenting, it's so great to see!" so she just slips it into people's bags when they aren't looking, or under their windshield wiper or similar. One woman, she set it under the woman's bagel. LOL my friend is a trip.
my son is also going through the demanding phase, but i just figured i would have to tell him and remind him to ask nicely because prior to now, he didn't have the language skills to ask nicely. he would say "Cracker!" or "juice!" becuase that's all he could say. But now that he has quite complex sentences (he's speaking at a 6-7 yr old level right now according to the child psychologist next door), and the understanding that he can ask for things, then he needs to learn the social graces therein.
in fact, i have been thinking about that a lot lately. he is constantly gaining new capacities for doing things, and he needs to learn the social skills around those things. He's quite good at taking turns, and he's even good at "sharing" in a specific sense -- which is more like taking turns -- and he is also developing a certain emotional capacity for redirecting younger children away from his games (eg, when playing with a younger child who is interested in his toy, we direct him to consider "what do you think baby ella would like? she thinks your toy is nice, what else do you think she would like?" and then he finds a toy and gives that to her, and he can go back to his game uninterrupted.
our newest struggle with the 3 yr old, though, is really with tidy away time. I've done the process of giving him plenty of notice before it's time to tidy before we go to the next thing, and it used to work well that we had a tidy away song. About 3-5 months ago, the song would be met with a tantrum NO! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! So, i would keep cleaning but stop singing.
Now, I just tidy when it's time to tidy, and he's usually cool with it, but he doesn't help to tidy like he used to. Sometimes, he will tidy on his own altogether -- just when it strikes him to do so -- which is great.
but, I'm looking for a method to get him to help tidy again -- and wondering what the change is. of course, once he goes to kindy (which is ages 3-6), he'll have to tidy when they do, so I'm sure it will work itself out. :D
Oh, the little WTG cards sound so cute! Oh boy, the old demanding and tidying up stage/phase! Yep, I know it, them, both, real well!!! :laff:
I'm actually laughing right now over it, thinking back on all the events and happenings related to those two things in our home. As with all moms, having a million and a half things to do (every day) helps redirect ones focus away from important things sometimes, and there were many times I'd turn my back for what seems to be only a minute, only to glance back and see hell had broken loose!
My boys were terrible for emptying out their toy boxes and closets of all things play related, then they'd scatter them from one end of the house to the other without concern. (Sometimes outside too)! Then, at the end of the day, I'd say to them, "OK boys, time to get all your toys cleaned up for the night", and then they'd cry like mad! :)
So I started getting smart, and I'd do spot checks of their rooms over the course of the day, dropping by unannounced to do surprise visits. Sometimes things were within the confines of acceptance, other times it looked as though a bomb had gone off! I'd tell them, "OK, you guys got 5 minutes to whip this place into shape- or else"! Then I'd take one hand and slap my other open hand smartly once! I'd leave, then come back in again in 5 or 10 minutes as promised, and there the boys would be, scrambling and racing against the clock to tidy things up in preparation of my arrival. Of course all my hand-slapping and foot-stomping was all just an act, but they needed a heavy presence at times.
I think that's incredible about your son speaking at the level of a 6-7 year old! That is awesome! I'm almost hoping you have another (adoption or birth) just so your son has a playmate, and someone who he can mentor and take under his wing.
well, he hasn't talked about it much, so I think he's cool either way. He's super-social, and really more interested in his friends than in any sort of sibling, and most of his friends are also onlies (or first children in a couple of cases). And of course, one friend is what i call a Half-Only. Tis is because he has an older brother, but that brother is 7 years older than my son's friend. So, it's like having two only children, rather than siblings, even though they are siblings.
today, he was telling me about how he and his best, Amalie, are going to go to japan for the cherry blossom festival, get married, and have chickens in their back yard. I'd already known about the Japan part, but not hte cherry blossom festival or the chickens. They are so cute.
At age 3, the "cleanup game" helped us. I made small cards from a piece of cardstock, each with a picture of a class of objects that DD needed to pick up (clothes, books, dolls, cars/trains, etc). About 8 cards total. Shuffled, let DD draw one at a time. She would pick up those items and then happily return for a new card.
That's so sweet Zoebird! :) What a sweetheart.
Rosemary. I love your card idea! Gee-whiz, you guys and all your great card ideas, yet I never thought of incorporating a single card program in the raising of my kids.
Just having a laugh right now thinking about the card system for cleaning. "OK boys, see this card"? "Ya mom, there's a bunch of pictures of toys on it". "OK, see this card"? "Ya, it's blank". "Right, and that's what I expect your rooms to look like when I come back in a while to do a check"! :laff:
Must be my day to resurrect threads. Bumping this one, too, because it's great! So many great threads fall down the page and go into never- never land, yet it's so refreshing to (every so often) unearth them and drag them back up to the surface again for everyone to enjoy again. And, sometimes, pulling past threads up from the depths inspires new entries.
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