Today, The End of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and........

[loosechickens]

the beginning of gay and lesbian citizens being able to serve their country in the military, openly, without having to hide their sexual orientation.

Finally, we join the ranks of most of our allies, including the British and Israeli military, and have been dragged, (albeit kicking and screaming) into a less bigoted 21st Century.

I raise a glass to my dear (deceased), much closeted Uncle Jack, a decorated WWII veteran, also a dear friend, also deceased, a WWII veteran, and several others still living, who served their country well and honorably, although had their sexual orientation been known, they would have been kicked out of the military.

I remember a dear friend, (also now deceased), drummed out of the Navy for being homosexual, after already having suffered the pain of being shunned by his family and them cutting him from their lives at age 18 because he was gay.

And all the heroic soldiers, sailors, airmen, etc. all through the history of our country, who have served their country, while who they were and who they might love had to be hidden.

It's not everything, but it's a big step toward fairness. And an even bigger step against our policies being driven by bigotry and religious prejudice.

I am proud that our military numbers and now embraces brave African-American members, women, and today, another group of formerly shunned citizen patriots, gays and lesbians.

A good day, IMHO. A good day.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Though military life has never remotely interested me, as a gay man I am glad to see the end of Don't Ask Don't Tell. I am glad that the US has joined the ranks of many other countries in the world where one can serve in the military if they are gay or lesbian, without living in fear of discharge for it. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime, and I have to say to anyone who says there has been no change under Obama, this is change. North Rim Rob

[iris lily]

Though military life has never remotely interested me, as a gay man I am glad to see the end of Don't Ask Don't Tell. I am glad that the US has joined the ranks of many other countries in the world where one can serve in the military if they are gay or lesbian, without living in fear of discharge for it. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime, and I have to say to anyone who says there has been no change under Obama, this is change. North Rim Rob

I agree, Rob, the President gets credit for taking this one on. This is a good change.

[peggy]

This is wonderful! To tell you the truth, at least among the people my husband worked with, if someone was gay we knew. It's kind of hard to live that close to and work with someone and not know. But of course, it was the BIG SECRET, and no one could talk about it. They couldn't bring their partners to official functions, or really any function in fear of just the right (wrong) person seeing them. All it took was one a--hole, of which there were plenty, to completely ruin some one's life.
Yea Obama! Yea 21st century!

[Zigzagman]

Great day for America. I'm hoping that with DADT being repealed that it will lead the way for survivor benefits for gay spouses and finally repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act. The military once again has proven to be the great test tube for many of our social issues.

Peace

[JaneV2.0]

One of my favorite authors, Randy Shilts, wrote a compelling history of gays in the military called Conduct Unbecoming. Worth reading.

And yes, this is absolutely a win for President Obama. Unlike his dispatching of Osama bin Laden, I'm pretty sure no one is going to try to assign George W. Bush all the credit for it. :~)

[Gingerella72]

I'm very glad of this happening as well. Maybe it will be the impetus for education and acceptance among the people who still believe that homosexuality is a choice, or a mental disorder. In reading some of the articles about the end of DADA yesterday, the comments following the article show just how many people out there are still driven by hatred, paranoia, and just plain ugliness in their views of "the other". It's sickening to read some of those comments.

[poetry_writer]

I agree, Rob, the President gets credit for taking this one on. This is a good change.


And timed so nicely for the next election.

[treehugger]

Even though the announcement made me say, "Finally!" it's still certainly a "better late than never" occasion and reason to celebrate. I feel a great sense of relief about this, even though I am not gay, nor have I ever wanted to serve in the military. It just feels right.

Kara

[Gregg]

My thanks to the President and his administration for the work they did to put an end to a ridiculous policy and my sincere hope to our nation that removing stigma will lead to someday removing prejudice.

[gimmethesimplelife]

And timed so nicely for the next election.You know, this could be, this could be.....But at least this change was nonetheless affected. Rob

[Spartana]

About damn time IMHO! Hooray and Boo Yah!! http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=531&d=1316626128

[loosechickens]

The end of Don't Ask, Don't Tell was championed early on in the Obama administration and finally passed through Congress many months ago. But Republican lawmakers and anti-gay groups kept insisting that the military was not ready, so extra months were taken in order for the services to prepare their members for the change, and to institute administrative changes necessary to end the practice, so that all services would sign off that they were prepared and ready to implement the new policy, and that it would not affect unit cohesiveness, etc.

If you want to say that the "timing" was just in time for the election, please thank the Republicans, who managed to delay this for many months, thereby giving President Obama a win supported by a solid majority of American citizens, as you said, poetry_writer, "just in time for the election". Much appreciated. ;-)

As others here have mentioned, there is more needing to be done, including the repeal of the Defense of Marriage Act, which prevents the services and the Federal government from treating gays and lesbians equally with other troops in the matters of health care for spouses, and other benefits enjoyed by heterosexual couples, but denied to gay ones, even those who are legally married, because those marriages are not officially recognized by the Federal government, as others are.

But it is a HUGE step forward, and I'm sure, the rest will come. Public opinion has changed in this country, especially as more and more people realize that most objections to gays are rooted in religious prejudice and emotion, and not in fact, and certainly not in line with the values and ideals of this great country.

I just wish my Uncle Jack could be here, and others who went to their deaths, having served their country honorably, but having to keep who they were a deep secret, in order to do so. I just wish they were here to see this day.

And my heart goes out to the many whose lives and careers were destroyed by people who "outed" them in order to do them damage, or out of prejudice and/or jealousy. So many valuable contributors, wasted. So many linguists fluent in Arabic, drummed out of the services just when we needed them most. So much taxpayer money wasted in training of wonderful soldiers, sailors and airmen, who wanted nothing other than to serve their country, yet were kicked out because of this truly stupid policy.

Talk about wasted taxpayer dollars!

[julia]

I'm also not gay and not interested in serving in the military (and not American either!!) but I'm delighted at this fantastic news. Well done to the Obama administration.

I recently had the privilege of watching the massive Manchester Pride parade - so many gay police officers, firemen, teachers, paramedics and dozens of other groups either celebrating their right to love in accordance with who they are, or straight people proud to march alongside their LGBT fellow citizens. It made me far prouder to be British than the royal wedding ever could.

For those who are familiar with British politics - it really amused me that the Liberal Democrats LGBT group were parading with a banner saying 'Lib Dems in Government - Supporting Gay Marriage - (then we can divorce the Tories!)'. I was happy to get a sticker from the Labour group saying 'Never Kissed a Tory' :-D

[Spartana]

But it is a HUGE step forward, and I'm sure, the rest will come. Public opinion has changed in this country, especially as more and more people realize that most objections to gays are rooted in religious prejudice and emotion, and not in fact, and certainly not in line with the values and ideals of this great country.



True that public opinion has changed, but being in a military unit of any sort - especially in remote or confined conditions for many months or years at a time - is a whole different animal then a civilian job. There are many people in and out of the military who aren't anti-gay or homophobic, but have privacy issues when it comes to sharing very confined spaces for long periods of time with gay members of the same gender. I personally don't have a problem with it - and I have no problem sharing those same confined spaces with males either - but can understand that for many people, even those who are not anti-gay, it would be a problem. As you can see behind the very young and pimply face of spartana, the small sleeping space shared with several other women on a ship for 9 months or more of deployments with gay crew members could be a problem for many straight men and women. Again, not for me (and I'm straight) but for many in the service. What to do about it? Not sure. Definetly many more logistical problems then just having women on a ship.http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=532&d=1316630200

[loosechickens]

ah, you were a cutie, for sure, Spartana.......

my own experience with gay people, and I know a LOT of gay people, is that they usually recognize others who are gay, and have good "gaydar" for knowing those who have no interest. I've spent a lot of time in my life around lesbians, and never had any mistake me for a prospect. I doubt that lots of straight people are going to be ogled and propositioned by gays they are serving with.

Part of the training that the services undertook focused on both appropriate behavior by gays and appropriate behavior by straights. Hopefully, the fear of this problem will be far worse than its reality. Time will tell.

I personally think those worries are overblown, and in close quarters and combat situations, I'm sure that straight men and women often have to sacrifice what would normally be privacy between the sexes, and this would be no different.

It's important to remember that gay members of our military, just as heterosexual members of our military, will be constrained in what constitutes appropriate behavior to other troops, and I'd be surprised if this turns out to be nearly the problem that many fear it will.

Of course, this comes from a person who is quite comfortable talking politics in an open shower with half a dozen guys, with none of us even thinking about that the person you're talking to is nekkid, so.............

We'll just have to see how it goes. We should probably try to remember that most all the Western democracies have been having gay members of the military serve openly without problems, often for years now. If they haven't met with difficulties, it's unlikely that we will, either.

[JaneV2.0]

I can think of a thousand reasons I wouldn't want to share close quarters with people, and sexual preference would be way down the list. I wouldn't have lasted the night in Spartana's quarters. A tent at Girl Scout camp was it for me. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared003.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

[Spartana]

ah, you were a cutie, for sure, Spartana.......

my own experience with gay people, and I know a LOT of gay people, is that they usually recognize others who are gay, and have good "gaydar" for knowing those who have no interest. I've spent a lot of time in my life around lesbians, and never had any mistake me for a prospect. I doubt that lots of straight people are going to be ogled and propositioned by gays they are serving with.

Part of the training that the services undertook focused on both appropriate behavior by gays and appropriate behavior by straights. Hopefully, the fear of this problem will be far worse than its reality. Time will tell.

I personally think those worries are overblown, and in close quarters and combat situations, I'm sure that straight men and women often have to sacrifice what would normally be privacy between the sexes, and this would be no different.

It's important to remember that gay members of our military, just as heterosexual members of our military, will be constrained in what constitutes appropriate behavior to other troops, and I'd be surprised if this turns out to be nearly the problem that many fear it will.

Of course, this comes from a person who is quite comfortable talking politics in an open shower with half a dozen guys, with none of us even thinking about that the person you're talking to is nekkid, so.............

We'll just have to see how it goes. We should probably try to remember that most all the Western democracies have been having gay members of the military serve openly without problems, often for years now. If they haven't met with difficulties, it's unlikely that we will, either.

Thanks LC (I was all dressed up, sans make up, with no where to go but out to sea for a year :-)!).

I don't think gay people would have a problem, but I think that many straight people who are fairly open minded about homosexuality would be uncomfortable sharing tight quarters, sleeping, showering, dressing, etc... with someone they knew was gay - even if that gay person had absolutely no sexual interest in anyone there. And as you pointed out, the no-fratenerzation (sp?) rules the military has are VERY strict - so probably not alot of hanky-panky will go on (although some will - it always does) at least not until service members are re-assigned to seperate units. But, while we may be open minded about it all, many in the services aren't. So I do see that there will be huge problems down the road until things work themselves out (and they usually do with alot less fuss and problems then we imagined they would). Not that it should be repealed of course, just that it will be much more difficult to implement in the military then in civilian jobs.

[Spartana]

I can think of a thousand reasons I wouldn't want to share close quarters with people, and sexual preference would be way down the list. I wouldn't have lasted the night in Spartana's quarters. A tent at Girl Scout camp was it for me. http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared003.gif (http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php)

Hey that was the very luxurious quarters on a small (95 ft) patrol boat with a 14 person crew! You should have seen the ship I was on before that (an approx 400 ft ship with a gazillion people crew photo below) - bunks (racks as we called them) stacked floor to ceiling with only a few inches of space in between. And lets not forget the shared bathroom (head). Fun, fun, fun! http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=534&d=1316636681

[Spartana]

I also wonder what the military's stance will be on transgendered people. Especially those who have choosen not to undergo complete sexual realignment surgury (i.e. they still have their "original parts" :-)). Will they be consiidered male or female? Will it matter (it shouldn't IMHO but it will to other's of course)? Lots of iisues.

[Gina]

My thanks to the President and his administration for the work they did to put an end to a ridiculous policy and my sincere hope to our nation that removing stigma will lead to someday removing prejudice.
Wouldn't it be pretty to think so. But alas as long as there are inflexible non-thinking religious people (certainly not all) there will be prejudice.

I think of my uncle who in retrospect, must have been gay. Never married, lived like a monk, gave up his life for his church volunteering his time, uber-holy, and left every penny he had to his church. When I was a kid I wondered what he must be trying to attone for to live like that. As an adult, I realized he must have been gay and that he thought he was a horrific 'miserable sinner'. The guilt back then must have been terrible. Probably still true for some raised in oppressive churches.

[Gardenarian]

Yay!

[loosechickens]

Of course, all those uncomfortable members of the military HAVE been serving, and often in close quarters with gay people, all along. Maybe it's like "what you don't know can't bother you"?

It reminded me of going once to Tecopa Hot Springs with a friend and her adult daughter, who is gay. The facility is county owned, and sexually segregated, with men having their own building and baths and women having theirs. Because of environmental regulations regarding a small endangered fish that lives in the runoff water from the baths, bathing suits are not allowed and bathing must be done nude after taking a shower. (It is AMAZING how much bacteria lives in bathing suits, and in pools, such as at nudist resorts, how much fewer chemicals are needed to keep the water in proper condition).

At any rate, we were relaxing in the baths, and a group of women came in, with a small tour group, and were VERY shocked to find the "no bathing suits" policy, giggling and embarassed, etc. As they came into the pool with us, one woman said, "well, I don't see WHY we're so nervous....it's not like there are lesbians here!".

Of course, I couldn't look at my friend OR her daughter for fear of busting out laughing.....those poor women, I'm sure they would have run for their lives if they had realized they were right there in the water with a real live lesbian. Of course, she wasn't in the least bit interested in them, and got kind of a private chuckle herself, just thinking of scenarios where she might speak up and say, "well, that is not exactly accurate.........."

Since gays and lesbians have been serving in the U.S. military since we HAD a military, and have been sharing those close quarters the whole time, it's hard to think what would be different, but, fears and prejudices are sometimes irrational things, and lots of people, if they don't KNOW they are in the presence of (fill in feared group, etc.), they are perfectly relaxed. But, at some point maybe they will realize that "those people" have been there all the time, without the world ending, so it's unlikely to cause them problems now.

Awhile back, I tried doing some research on problems encountered by other countries that had gays and lesbians serving openly in their militaries, but couldn't find much of any information at all, so am assuming it was pretty much a nonevent, as I expect this will be, once the first reflexive "icks" are lived through.....

[Maxamillion]

I also wonder what the military's stance will be on transgendered people. Especially those who have choosen not to undergo complete sexual realignment surgury (i.e. they still have their "original parts" :-)). Will they be consiidered male or female? Will it matter (it shouldn't IMHO but it will to other's of course)? Lots of iisues.

As far as I know, anyone who is in the process of transition or has completed transition isn't allowed to serve in the military. I've also heard if you're pre-transition you can serve, if you don't mention about wanting to transition. I haven't looked into joining the military myself, this is just what I've heard from some transsexual people that have wanted to join.

As for the end of DADT, it's about time!

[Gregg]

Wouldn't it be pretty to think so. But alas as long as there are inflexible non-thinking religious people (certainly not all) there will be prejudice.


True or false: If some people are religious and some people are prejudice against gays then all religious people are prejudice against gays.

There are certainly some religious sects that believe homosexuality is a sin (or worse), but as you said, certainly not all. There are a great number who teach tolerance and love of others without regard to such things. Likewise there are people who carry prejudice against gays without any religious overtones whatsoever. You don't need God to hate someone. How's that for the ironic statement of the day?

[redfox]

True that public opinion has changed, but being in a military unit of any sort - especially in remote or confined conditions for many months or years at a time - is a whole different animal then a civilian job. There are many people in and out of the military who aren't anti-gay or homophobic, but have privacy issues when it comes to sharing very confined spaces for long periods of time with gay members of the same gender. I personally don't have a problem with it - and I have no problem sharing those same confined spaces with males either - but can understand that for many people, even those who are not anti-gay, it would be a problem. As you can see behind the very young and pimply face of spartana, the small sleeping space shared with several other women on a ship for 9 months or more of deployments with gay crew members could be a problem for many straight men and women. Again, not for me (and I'm straight) but for many in the service. What to do about it? Not sure. Definetly many more logistical problems then just having women on a ship.http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=532&d=1316630200

Only if one believes that all us Queers want is sex, and that we have no personal boundaries or respect. It's straight assumptions that are behind this. Let me tell you that Queers are a lot more interested in dating people who actually want to date us, not straight people. The assumption that being in tight quarters is somehow going to tempt someone who is Queer is indeed homophobic.

[loosechickens]

I agree, Gregg......you don't need God to be homophobic, and many, especially mainstream Christian churches are not only welcoming, but active in working for gay and lesbian rights, have gay clergy, etc. Fundamentalists, not so much.

It's always interesting to me to see how many peoples' God just happens to be prejudiced against the same folks that they are, but for sure, there are atheist homophobes, we know.

But, for some religious people, when fear of homosexuals, untruths regarding them and misconceptions about them "choosing" to be gay, or being able to, through prayer, to become "un-gay", are preached from the pulpit, one can't wonder why homophobia seems more prevalent among some religious people.

But there are religious people AND religious people, and intolerance and fear of gays are certainly not universal feelings among Christians. Very good point.

[Spartana]

Only if one believes that all us Queers want is sex, and that we have no personal boundaries or respect. It's straight assumptions that are behind this. Let me tell you that Queers are a lot more interested in dating people who actually want to date us, not straight people. The assumption that being in tight quarters is somehow going to tempt someone who is Queer is indeed homophobic.

I never said or even inferred that living in tight quarters were going to tempt anyone (never even mentioned the word sex or sexual temptation once in my post) or that anyone who is gay lacks respect of personal boundaries (again, never said either thing). I wasn't even talking about sex in any way shape or form. What I said is that for some straight people, living in tight quarters, showering together, using the bathrooms together with someone who is gay might be difficult. You aren't necesaarily talking about older highly educated or enlightened mature worldly people, but many barely 18 year old kids who have never been off the farm. Who have joined to serve God and Country (in that order) and don't always have more liberal beliefs or ideals that we have. My point was that many of those conservative kids MAY have a problem sharing private space with people who are gay (much like many women might have a problem sharing private space with men) becasuse of moral or ethical beliefs about homosexuality, not that they may be tempted to have sex.

[Spartana]

Of course, all those uncomfortable members of the military HAVE been serving, and often in close quarters with gay people, all along. Maybe it's like "what you don't know can't bother you"?


..those poor women, I'm sure they would have run for their lives if they had realized they were right there in the water with a real live lesbian. Of course, she wasn't in the least bit interested in them, and got kind of a private chuckle herself, just thinking of scenarios where she might speak up and say, "well, that is not exactly accurate.........."

Since gays and lesbians have been serving in the U.S. military since we HAD a military, and have been sharing those close quarters the whole time, it's hard to think what would be different, but, fears and prejudices are sometimes irrational things, and lots of people, if they don't KNOW they are in the presence of (fill in feared group, etc.), they are perfectly relaxed. But, at some point maybe they will realize that "those people" have been there all the time, without the world ending, so it's unlikely to cause them problems now.

Awhile back, I tried doing some research on problems encountered by other countries that had gays and lesbians serving openly in their militaries, but couldn't find much of any information at all, so am assuming it was pretty much a nonevent, as I expect this will be, once the first reflexive "icks" are lived through.....

I think alot of it is more "social norm" than fear or even sexual intimidation. For instance, I would actually feel much more comfortable getting nekkid and showering in a room full of lesbians then a room full of gay men, even though I know gay men have absolutely no sexual interest in me. It's more a comfort thing - having spent much of my life in womens gyms, undressing, showering, etc.. it just seems "normal" to me irregardless of their sexual orientation. Where as, being raised as a bit of a prude (and not completely over it yet ;-)!), I would just EXTREMELY uncomfortable showering in a room full of men - even gay men. In the military men and women are generally seperated in private areas for the most part. Whether it's in a ship's berthing area, a barracks, or a tent - there are seperate sleeping areas, showers and bathrooms. And even if the areas are shared - say only one shower area or bathroom - men and women don't use them at the same time. And while it does happen that you are often in situations where privacy between the sexes isn't possible (out on patrol, in a plane or heliocopter, driving a truck or tank, in a remote area, etc...) there are usually ways that males and females deal with it to try to retain as much personal privacy as possible. i.e - that's the girls tree (or sand dune as is ther case now), the boys sand dune :-)! And while there are often some very awkward and embarrassing situations that arise (been there!) most of those situations have been worked out over the past 30 plus years of women being in the service. And having served with lesbians myself, I personally have no issue or discomfort with it - although I am aware that other's do andf THAT's why I say that there will be many who are very uncomfortable sharing those private areas with gay people of the same gender. So, now with a MUCH NEEDED IMHO policy to allow gays in the military, I'm just saying that there are going to be some privacy issues that are uncomfortable for some straight people who WILL be sharing close quarters. But so what?! I'm not a big fan of politely waiting for people to become enlightened and welcome new changes with open arms. Be waiting forever that way. Batter down the door and make them deal with the changes. Just like with non-white races and women first entering the service, eventually it will become the norm and be accepted as a daily part of life.

[Spartana]

True or false: If some people are religious and some people are prejudice against gays then all religious people are prejudice against gays.

There are certainly some religious sects that believe homosexuality is a sin (or worse), but as you said, certainly not all. There are a great number who teach tolerance and love of others without regard to such things. Likewise there are people who carry prejudice against gays without any religious overtones whatsoever. You don't need God to hate someone. How's that for the ironic statement of the day?

I agree gregg. I know of many people - many current and former service members - who are not religious at all yet are as homophobic as you can get. I also know many who are deeply religious and would welcome people of all sexual orientations, genders and views with open arms into their churches and the military as well. Too bad all didn't feel that way. Would make the world a much more pleasant and equal place for all.