View Full Version : Stigma attached to simple/frugal living.
First things first, my apologies to everyone as to the length of this topic. (Tried EVERYTHING under the sun to pare it down). (Black eye)!
Another thread of mine (drying/wiping out kitchen sink basins after dish washing) posted in the Open Forum got me thinking, "I wonder if any other SL members (practitioners) ever feel/felt any sort of stigma attached to living simply and frugally".
For example, a common practice of mine is washing/rinsing out plastic bags/Ziploc bags and pinning them up on the outdoor clothesline to dry. I've been doing this for years and don't see it as being strange, or odd, or silly or anything, nor do I think of it as being out of place either, but I do know that it's not the norm and definitely isn't something that everyone does. (Stigma attached to drying plastic bags outside on my line)? A little, but never enough to prevent me from continuing.
Another example, cloth diapering. In a world where disposables are the diaper of choice in many homes, I wonder (and used to wonder) how a clothesline strewn with cotton squares and old school waterproofs is/was viewed or looked at or thought of by non-simple/non-frugal people. (Stigma attached to drying cloth diapers on my clothesline when my kids were little)? A little, but never enough to hold me back from carrying on.
Now don't get me wrong, I myself never feel or felt embarrassed, ashamed, or weird as to what I do/did in my home in the way of helping/saving the environment, being frugal and thrifty and economical, providing a healthier option for my children, or just being plain old-fashioned and traditional in my ways, but in a world where excess seems to be taking hold and expanding exponentially year after year, I can't help but wonder what others (like you) go/went through in the way of stigma related to SL.
So, if stigma colours or ever coloured your SL lifestyle to any degree, what SL practices were they? i.e. Maybe it's not owning an automatic washing machine, or maybe it's shopping thrift/consignment stores for fashions/things, or maybe it's driving the same vehicle for decades rather than just a handful of years, etc.
You know, I feel more 'stimga' from people when I don't participate "properly" in their activities than when I do my own thing. It's as if ... it's ok for me to do my funny little whatever-it-is, but when push comes to shove I ought to behave as others do. People hate to going shopping with me because although I understand the "oh you have to buy that! And then I'll buy this!" dance, isn't this fun!, well no, sorry, I'm not buying that ugly/expensive/junky/useless/not-me thing just so they can feel better about the crap they're bringing home.
There might be some people who don't accept what I do in my personal life, but they're not even worth consideration, to judge me in my home is just so arrogant and intrusive I can't take it seriously. But I find it does get tough when I participate in a public "event" with others, whether it's shopping or eating out or just walking in the park, when my own actions actually have an impact on people I'm with.
goldensmom
1-12-11, 5:36am
Some of my acquaintances call me 'cheap' because of my frugal/simple ways and choices. Example, if I say I do not want to 'do lunch' it may be because I don't like the chosen restaurant, I'm not willing to spend that much money on a meal or I just don't want to go but to them it that means I am cheap. I am comfortable with my lifestyle but I think they are not.
I used to get pushback from 2 of my siblings when I was younger about why I didn't have a bigger house, or a nicer car. Not so much anymore. Both of them are in debt up to their eyeballs, and are struggling financially. My house and modest cards (VW golf, Honda Civic) are paid off, and I have not worked for 1.5 years (not by choice) but am not struggling. I think one is starting to make the connection: my sister bought a very modest car the last time and she's kept it for more than her usual 2 years. My brother however, still insists on driving a Lexus and complains constantly that he has no money (ie we should feel sorry for him) even though he won't work for someone else
No one else really says anything. Maybe its because those flashy people who are all about appearances never become my close friends. Most people I know are looking for ways to cut back, and at least feign interest in asking me about why I do things like bring my own lunch.
Hi Kib and Goldensmom and Herbgeek. Great points and input. I try to not invite strangers and regular ordinary people (critics) into my life as a result of my own overly active and creative mind. (I over-think and analyze things way too much). It's one of my biggest downfalls, always concerning myself over what everyone else thinks. But thanks to you guys I'm getting better at it! Yay! :)
I find lately, the people who inspire me the most and help me learn and grow the most, are those who have long since retired from their jobs, settled into a relaxed and comfortable lifestyle, and never embarked upon the concept of keeping up with the Jones's at any point in their lives. Seems there's a REALLY big stigma attached to THAT. People don't like those types (kind). At least so I've learned.
One day you guys, one day, I'm going to finally master the ability to look past all things that don't affect me directly. (One day). :)
It seems to be a very human dynamic to band together in little groups and point fingers at others for their folly. Stigma flows both ways, clearly.
I wash and dry plastic bags, but not outside on the line. I prop them open over the dish drainer (where I've washed dishes by hand) and they dry just fine. Hanging them outside, especially in the winter, would be just too darn much trouble! I do use my dishwasher but there are plenty of things that I can't wash that way, so I always have some to do by hand.
I'm greener than some, less green than others. We do what works for us, and nobody says anything either way. We don't really make an issue of it. Some people tho, do give me their used plastic bags that they'd normally throw away.
I just got an indirect criticism from someone because, in his view, I am 'struggling' financially. The back story is that he is engaging in a money-making practice and marketing it daily to his friends. I e-mailed him to ask a couple of questions about it and I guess he is feeling defensive. Anyway, I guess I am 'struggling' financially -- I'm helping my kids and grandkids and it is leaving me strapped. However, I do own my house and car outright, always have cash available, and my time is my own. It reminds me of the Millionaire Next Door (not that I am) -- while they drive their old cars and live in their small (paid for) houses, the rest of the world whirls through life in a blaze of McMansions and Hummers, having no clue.
In our neck of the rural woods, I don't seem to be conspicuous or suffering any stigma. Maybe, it is because we are all in the same general mindset and financial boat.
In our neck of the rural woods as well, people don't buy the bigger, newer vehicles. I live in farming country, so most people only talk about their animals, harvest - not into McMansions. Most of us all drive older vehicles until they die. I do the washing and drying of plastic bags (dry in the house on the dish drainer) unless I have put meat into them. Most everyone in our community gets along with each other.
Why concern yourself with the burdens other people place on their minds?
flowerseverywhere
1-12-11, 2:01pm
I don't care what anyone thinks. The few times anyone has said anything to me (ie. You should loosen up a little) I replied " I am very happy and content and am doing my utmost not to trash the planet. Why are you concerned with how I choose to live?"
Living within your means and being mindful of your spending is nothing to be ashamed of so don't be.
Great thing about getting older... stigmas? Bring 'em on!
But to answer your question, the only people who roll their eyes at some of my practices are extended family members. I have a Keurig coffee maker, but haven't been able to get the K-cups at less than about $.45 a cup. Now, I've found I can buy a Keurig filter and use my own coffee and spend probably about .04 a cup, which is what I do. But my family thinks that's weird. When my son visits, he will get dressed, leave the house, and go to the convenience store to spend $1.00 for a cup of coffee when he can have one at home for nothing. I don't get it.
The stigma stings more if you have kids. One of the most idiotic things I did as a parent was accept a bag of hand-me-downs from a neighbor, and then dress my son in them. Never occurred to me that the kid who previously owned the clothes would draw attention to the fact that my son was wearing his old clothes in front of the whole class at school. I feel like a jerk every time I think about that. I don't mind the stigma--never have--but don't stigmatize my kid!
fidgiegirl
1-12-11, 7:58pm
Some of my acquaintances call me 'cheap' because of my frugal/simple ways and choices.
It hurts me when my coworkers or friends, who I feel know me quite well, call me cheap. While we are mindful about how we spend our money, I am willing to go out with people (except for booze) and I feel like we give quite a bit of money to charitable organizations. I guess to others, unless I have a lot of clothes or am going out a lot, buying a lot of clothes or electronics (which I actually do really want!), I must just be cheap. :(
I don't tell folks I try to be a daytime vegan. Although, what I eat is none of anyone's business so I don't know why I would tell them.
You guys have made me feel a whole lot more at ease, more at peace, and more content and comfortable with my choices/ways. I like hearing from people. I've always needed that in my life, even at a young age.
It seems to be a very human dynamic to band together in little groups and point fingers at others for their folly. Stigma flows both ways, clearly.
Indeed, and I'm guilty. However, what I'm seeing in this thread mostly is people minding their own business, doing their own thing, who are then criticized for doing their own thing. It's very human to want to defend yourself when you feel attacked (such as being called cheap or a weirdo).
In my case, I never particularly cared or payed attention to how my siblings spent their money until they started teasing me at every opportunity. It hurt to be called cheap when I was extremely generous with gifts for them or their children, just because I didn't live at or above my means in other areas of my life. If I'm happy with modest, why did they feel the need to harass me about it or make me feel bad that I didn't make the same choices they did
So yes, I sound a little "better than thou" in this thread, I will admit. Not without provocation however.
I also live in the country on a small farm.Never had any problem with the fact that we always lived frugal as do all the people I know in my cummunity.However when my Sisters come over from Holland ,they are amazed that I still have the same furniture year after year.Well it looks very good and is soooooooooooo comfy it probable stay for ever.Now we are very comfy and they are paying huge credit card bills every month.I sure like MY way much better.no cc and NO debt.
Anita
goldensmom
1-13-11, 8:08am
You guys have made me feel a whole lot more at ease, more at peace, and more content and comfortable with my choices/ways. I like hearing from people. I've always needed that in my life, even at a young age.
Those are the key words, Mrs-M, content and comfortable. I sometimes wonder why my lifestyle and choices bother others when their lifestyle and choices do not bother me. I've never commented to someone 'well, you sure are extravagant'. My siblings live way 'higher on the hog' than I do and that is fine for them but it is not a lifestyle that I would be content and comfortable with.
I think I live in an odd suburban neighborhood. Frugality and environmental consciousness are pretty standard stuff here. I was talking with a teenage friend of mine who was telling me that it's common practice among the high school girls to trade clothes once in a while to change up their wardrobes without spending a lot of money and that even among the teens thrift store shopping and hand-me-downs aren't considered to have any stigma. Most of them feel that it's just a way to stretch their money. The adults are of the same mindset.
Bella went to her friend's birthday party the other day and it was a shared party between him and his cousin where the big kids played the wii and the little kids watched a rented movie and everyone ate hot dogs and cake and the treat bags were paper lunchbags with a Mario mushroom drawn on them and filled with leftover Christmas candy. I love it!
Clotheslines are common here and people walk or bike a lot for transportation. My next door neighbor is about 65 years old and I see him walking distances I would be hesitant to walk. Some of my neighbors team up to buy things in bulk and split them and people share things like tools a lot. The neighbors two doors down from me cloth diaper their kids. I grew up here and a lot of my childhood friends' parents still live here. I know that many of them have paid off their houses and that most of them have six figure incomes, but still live in the 1800 square foot ranch house they bought in 1980. Almost everyone I know has at least some tomato plants and herbs in their garden, if not more. In my townhouse area there are two people who have managed to grow figs (this is Minnesota) and one woman who has managed to grow lemons in pots on their decks. I know a ton of neighbors who have retired early or gone to part-time work at a pretty young age. My other next door neighbor actually teaches budgeting and frugality to people in their teens and twenties through a non-profit and her DH works at an organic foods store.
So to make a long story short, I don't feel too out of my element here. I think I probably came to SL easier because it wasn't so out of the ordinary where I grew up. I saw a lot of people living at least a little outside the mainstream on a pretty regular basis.
iris lily
1-13-11, 10:34am
Well, we live in the midst of people who are extremely House Proud and I love that because I visit gorgeous Victorian mansions all the time. But the flip side is that our house, while once typical of the 'nabe here in that it is "under construction" (ha ha no activity for 10 years, but I digress), is now an oddity. I cling to my one friend who has a house in the same state as ours. Just about every other house is "done".
So when I plan to refresh our kitchen, which is in desperate need of it, everyone thinks "granite countertops." Ummm, no. While I could afford to pave my entire block with granite sidewalk if I chose to do that, I'm just not gonna spend the money. I want to paint the cabinents that we have (which are very nice, I love them--built by DH) and replace countertop--probably--and fix cracked tile on the floor. That's' about it. But that standard isn't in line with other kitchens around here! I am fine with that.
In this SL group I feel rather normal, but when I am out and about, I proudly consider myself to be an eccentric. I would rather not work and have all my time to do whatever (withing reason) I want rather than have all the bells and whistles some consider essential.
I belong to a club. Most of us (esp the women) have known each other for years. They are mostly middle class and most have at least part-time jobs. Many complain about not liking their jobs, but don't seem to get the connection between spending less and not having to work. I guess they would rather buy the latte's, spend $15-20 for a lunch out, go to a movie a week, massages, have the big-screen tv, buying this or that for the kids, etc... I may sound critical, but most of these friends (nice women) are working for the extras, not basic rent or food money.
Last week I was telling these friends that I had figured out a way to make moderately good champagne from cheap dry white wine (inject it with CO2). One asked in disbelief 'why don't you just buy real champagne - there are some good cheap ones.' Sigh... If I can save a few $ by doing something myself - and not have to work - I'm going to.
Contentment is something that a lot of us here have that isn't found in most other people. Being happy with what we have and making do takes so much pressure off of us; the newest, latest, greatest must-have isn't necessary. We can enjoy the little things that make our simple life easier and if others think that we're a bit odd, so be it.
I always think of little kids unwrapping a big gift with an expensive toy inside, and playing with the box instead. We may be simple, but we're not 'simple minded'. It takes a lot of creativity and ingenuity to live the way we do and the pride we feel can't be bought.
One former coworker, a hairdresser, makes a lot of money but has nothing to show for it---in debt, lost her house, no money put away for her kids. She would always say "You gotta live a little" and I sometimes feel like I'm missing out on something when everyone has nicer things, takes vacations and spoils themselves. Maybe I am, I dunno. Hopefully I won't look back at my life and regret how I lived. Right now I don't feel as if I'm sacrificing anything by the choices I've made. This year I'm trying to live with less, especially since my income has gone down A LOT. I enjoy a challenge and it's kinda fun figuring out ways to save money. These forums are a great place for making us all feel more 'normal'.
flowerseverywhere
1-14-11, 8:43am
I sometimes feel like I'm missing out on something when everyone has nicer things, takes vacations and spoils themselves. Maybe I am, I dunno. Hopefully I won't look back at my life and regret how I lived. Right now I don't feel as if I'm sacrificing anything by the choices I've made. This year I'm trying to live with less, especially since my income has gone down A LOT. I enjoy a challenge and it's kinda fun figuring out ways to save money. These forums are a great place for making us all feel more 'normal'.
I think that we have all been brainwashed into thinking there is a new normal that includes piles of material stuff that may have no value, or even negative value in our lives that extends into all areas of our lives. I was given some money for a job I did and it sits in my wallet. Besides food I can't think of anything I need. Maybe some new footwear eventually but my house is full and my life is too.
The years that we didn't have the newest, latest, greatest were accumulating years for us which enabled us to help our kids get through university and save for retirement/FI. Since we were able to leave the normal workforce (we both do some part time meaningful work) we have had the most fulfilling and happy lives.
sweetana3
1-14-11, 11:00am
Our best friends are having personal issues now that the DH is retired. They have never budgeted and both have excessive spending habits. We just gently explain that we do not want to go out to dinner a lot because it is costly and how about lunch or eating at home?
I am trying to get her to make some presents for the granddaughters since it is a good time for dress up stuff or doll clothes but she seems to be in a spending contest with a wealthy daughter in law. I am going to continue with ideas this year.
She really needs to stop looking at catalogs and media sources. It would make her a lot happier.
Life_is_Simple
1-14-11, 11:29am
I am lucky that my entire family is frugal, and my friends as well. My BF is more frugal than I am. He is an engineer, and he LOVES fixing things. :+1:
I have almost the opposite problem as mentioned in the thread. I'm fairly frugal, but the frugal-ness (frugalocity?) allows me to spend in other places. ;)
People will notice the one place i am spending money, and focus on that. Like, people at a previous job would find out I have a personal chef and think I made a lot of money. I would tell them, "This shirt I'm wearing cost me 25c. These pants - 25c." Plus, the chef frees up time and energy for me, which improves my health, and allows me to make more money. Also, it's amazing what you can afford, when you stop looking at all the new gadgets and trinkets.
Funny, my friends at that job were quite frugal, and we all had FICO scores around 800. :+1:
I should seek out some acquaintances who are non-frugal, just to remind me how good I have it.
:cool:
People will notice the one place i am spending money, and focus on that. Like, people at a previous job would find out I have a personal chef and think I made a lot of money. I would tell them, "This shirt I'm wearing cost me 25c. These pants - 25c." Plus, the chef frees up time and energy for me, which improves my health, and allows me to make more money. Also, it's amazing what you can afford, when you stop looking at all the new gadgets and trinkets.
Yep. For years I think people thought I was financially destitute... till I purchased this house. Excellent view of the ocean in a nice neighborhood. You could see some of their jaws almost drop as they visited my (at the time) new home. Not that it's a McMansion (it's not), but it is nice and didn't fit with their conception of someone who was driving a 19 yr old car, buys clothes at the thrift store, rarely eats out or goes to movies, no cell phone, grows her own veggies....
We all have our priorities. :D
It is all about maximum value for money spent. I would take Lean Cuisine to work to save money and calories. I shop at garage sales for clothes. However, we just spent 30 days in Thailand. Choices choices choices.
Life_is_Simple
1-14-11, 5:06pm
Yep. For years I think people thought I was financially destitute... till I purchased this house. Excellent view of the ocean in a nice neighborhood. You could see some of their jaws almost drop
LOL, Gina! Don't you love messing with people's heads like this? :+1:
fidgiegirl
1-14-11, 6:20pm
I've never commented to someone 'well, you sure are extravagant'.
That's the rub for me. For me to point this out to anyone would be considered extremely rude, but not for them to call me cheap. :(
Oh well. I like my job, and if we lived more extravagantly we couldn't both be teachers. We couldn't have our summers off. We couldn't live in this cute, convenient, safe neighborhood.
It's really great hearing from you all. Hearing about it from your perspective as to issues related to your lifestyles puts a pleasant spin on things which in turn helps bolster my feelings and confidence.
Mrs. M, that is why I enjoy reading this forum so much. It has been hard to find others into some kind of frugal living. I have my own stock of loanable books on frugal living just in case someone has an interest.
One friend said I was just "genetically frugal" and she of course could not stop spending. My husband has said in the past that if I had not married him, I would have all my dollars in a savings account or under the bed. I love savings accounts.
That's the rub for me. For me to point this out to anyone would be considered extremely rude, but not for them to call me cheap.
It's easier for people to label others out loud when they are in the majority.
Fortunately no one has called me cheap to my face, but I know they think it. Their problem, not mine. What they don't know is that I tend to spend more money when I am out and about with friends than I ever would on my own.
We downsized to an area where some live in semi-poverty. I certainly don't feel out of place here by not having fancy things. They used to call the local dump "the mall" because that is where many people bought their household items. The man who ran it would put aside anything he felt was reusable and people would go there to shop. For a very small price you could pick up just about anything. It has since changed ownership and the new people aren't as good running things as the previous owner was. Anyway, I am quite proud of my "frugality".
The only time I get a twinge of regret is at Christmas because for many family members I give them a homemade Chrismas cake and a homemade and personalized calendar (with all the important birthday/anniversary, etc. dates marked on it for that individual). Sometimes I feel they think we are being cheap, but I feel the gifts have more importance because they are homemade and come from the heart. I believe that is really what Christmas is all about.
My daughter has drastically changed over the last couple of years from a crazy spender to a thrifty Mom who clips coupons and passes on the mall. When I see that, I feel like maybe my frugality isn't wasted. :)
I think a couple of posters hit on something with the word "contentment".
Homilies to the contrary, our culture teaches us to think that we can buy happiness. And that it comes in a prepackaged shrinkwrapped box. You should be able to go to Costco and buy the box that says "happy life" on it and be done. And then maybe the upgraded version with the superior warranty.
So the finger-pointers ... they see our contentment and happiness. And they look at what's in our box. And get all upset, because they want contentment and happiness but they don't want what's in our box and they have never been taught that happiness doesn't come in a box. It's like we present them with this big connundrum: if you want to be content, well this is what comes in the happy box. Which you don't like, so you're screwed. So they spend a lot of time pointing out why we shouldn't be content with what's in the box, because they wouldn't be, so the happy box is really no good.
Of course we know better, they don't have to choose what comes in OUR happiness box to be happy, they have to fill their own happiness box. But they don't know that, they don't know how.
loosechickens
1-15-11, 2:24pm
Amen, kib......absolutely. It's like a conundrum.....they want that contentment, but they don't want how it was obtained, because they've been brainwashed into thinking that isn't where contentment comes from, so they're in that old Groucho Marx paradox of whether they want to believe what the culture says or their lying eyes......that is very hard for most people.
And most people really feel the need to believe that their own choices are correct, and when they are embedded within a society that reinforces the belief that they are on the right track to happiness and contentment by consuming and chasing status, it's hard to step outside themselves to look at a different reality.
VERY well said.
WOW kib! I think that is the best commentary I have read in a very long time. More people definitely need to read that one. EXCELLENT!!!
I'll 4th that. Well said kib
Although it's not quite the same, I am reminded of something a house organizer (Walsh?) said on Oprah the other day. He said that whenever they go into a home and declutter and clear all 'the stuff' from the rooms, if there are little children in the house, they go into the newly cleared rooms and dance - every single time.
Less really is more. :)
flowerseverywhere
1-15-11, 4:23pm
It is important for us to remember that while we have found some kindred spirits here, it is very easy to be critical or look down on others who do not follow our mantra. It silently makes me ill when I see people who are wasteful, keep having children on our crowded planet or spend every cent and wait for the lottery or government to rescue them - but I also have to be careful to keep my judgements to myself. Just as I have to ask people not to judge me for the life I lead.
I think my example has helped some but others just think I am cheap or crazy and I have to accept that along with accepting others.
frugal-one
1-15-11, 6:07pm
Recently I mentioned to my brother how I couldn't believe all the people who throw their empty pop/beer cans into the recycling bin. That is throwing money away! We throw them into a bag and when full .. throw them in the car and to the recyclers. We always have at least enough to pay for our lunch! He stated that I am really cheap and that it wasn't worth his time! Also, a neighbor who is constantly saying they are so in debt commented on my cheapness. I told her I did not think of myself as cheap, but frugal. There is a difference! Like others here... I don't need to prove myself to anyone!
I experience the stigmatization the most at work. I'm satisfied with my status and have no ambition whatever to move up into management. The people to whom I have told this seem gobsmacked and stunned. They've been so brainwashed by the "success=money and status" mentality that they seem to have trouble comprehending.
On the other hand, I live in an '0ver-55' community with many neighbors who are much older than myself (I'm 65) and being conservative and frugal is no big news to them. There are a few who spend gobs of money fixing up their houses, but they're a minority. I'm also quite happy that our little development is known as "moderately priced housing". I've lived here going on eleven years and there's never been a break-in or robbery in all that time, despite there currently being a lot of vacant houses.
happy with less
1-16-11, 1:25pm
Oh I do like your blog fidgiegirl. I especially like your 20 questions as it is making think about some things that I've been avoiding recently. :) Thx so much.
fidgiegirl
1-16-11, 1:38pm
Oh thank you, happy! I am looking forward to populating it.
People can complain all day long about their jobs and how they want to win the lottery so they can quit working. YET, if you started telling them about how you plan to retire or at least cut back your hours long before you are due for retirement, they look at you as a "lazy" person trying to get out of life's "responsibilities" etc. WHAT?
Kib is a Master. I'm just sayin'
ApatheticNoMore
1-16-11, 3:28pm
Are there really that many people out there that care how others live their life to such a degree that they judge what people do and don't buy, even if it's not doing anyone any harm?
"I experience the stigmatization the most at work. I'm satisfied with my status and have no ambition whatever to move up into management."
Well this I get. I could see why management might want you to move up, they are trying to promote what they view in the best interest of the company, and thus indirectly in their best interest. They actually at least have a bit of a dog in the fight in this one.
People can complain all day long about their jobs and how they want to win the lottery so they can quit working. YET, if you started telling them about how you plan to retire or at least cut back your hours long before you are due for retirement, they look at you as a "lazy" person trying to get out of life's "responsibilities" etc. WHAT?
Yea, but I've worked part-time and this isn't always the response. It is the response from some but the response from others is curiosity and "it sounds good, I wish I could do that, what's it like?" In a public debate people will seem to defend the glory of work, work, and more work to infinitely, and you'll just scratch your head (sheesh you get the feeling such people could be handed more leisure, more rewarding work, and utopia itself on a silver platter (not that I have the power to do so :)) and they wouldn't want it). But real people, approaching you person to person, have curiosity.
People need to actually believe stuff is possible for them though. If they see it as totally impossible to them for whatever reason, real or imagined, it won't interest (in fact it's almost the definition of resentment).
People complaining about their jobs may to some degree be game playing also, I suspect in many cases people don't really hate them as much as they say they do.
Today we stopped by Home Depot to look at kitchen laminate counter top materials and I decided to not even replace what we've got since I hate the choices in the new materials.
I will definately have to do a little 'splainin' to friends here, but no one will question me seriously, its just that so many people are "new kitchen" oriented that they offer advice whether wanted or not. The one "upgrade" I could see in our ktichen is a new hanging light fixture but DH says it will not provide the same amount of light and he is against it, so I may be outvoted on that.
But I will be happy if I can just get our kitchen cabinents painted and get everything CLEAN. IT's pretty awful, the grime level here.
I'm enjoying reading everyone's posts. It's chicken soup for my soul.
Kudos for everyone's responses!
For us, while we were frugal from the beginning of being together and our married life, we were not "hard" core frugal.
In 1997, when we stated to my parents that we wanted to get married, they told us: OK, you have $10K to use for your wedding. My sister got married the same year, two months before us (although we got engaged before them, but that is a different story ;) ) and she got the same deal $10K to spend on her wedding. Well, we managed to go under the amount, and so we "got" extra money from my parents to do as we wanted. We still managed to have a beautiful wedding, but it was on a Sunday rather than a Saturday night, it was a brunch rather than a dinner, plus a couple of other things. My sister, went the other way and went over budget, and she and her husband had to chip into the cost of their wedding. Two sisters but completely different aspects of looking at money.
Fast forward 10 years : We had a house full of nice furniture, in a great neighborhood, with nice vehicles that were paid off, kept in great shape, and owned for longer than 3 years each. Mortgage was low, no other loans or debts. No kids. I had read YMOYL back in 2000, but at the time, could not get the DH onboard. But by 2004/2005, he had read it, and we started following it more closely.
I took to heart the ideas of writing all expenses down to see where the money goes.
DH was getting sick of the job he was having, but kept plugging away at it.
We bought our Truck Camper in 2006 and went on an amazing six week vacation. Unheard of in our neck of the woods to go on a SIX WEEK Vacation! We started calling it a sabbatical as neither of us was a teacher who gets a couple of months off.
The questions started happening: WHY would you take such a long vacation? What in the world could you do in 6 weeks? How would you do this? Are you still going to have a job when you come back? (Yes, we did for the last one, but DH had to pull a bunch of strings, and not only that, had to promise he would never go on sabbatical again!)
We got back from our vacation that Sunday night~10 pm. We had to be at work on Monday. This was in October 2006. We put our house on the market January 2007.
Our family was flabbergasted. Where will you live? You are selling all of your stuff, WHY? Our friends could not believe it. Why would you want to sell your TV, electronics, and everything else and live in a Truck Camper? WHY? WHY? WHY?
We told them we wanted to follow voluntary simplicity, we wanted to volunteer and work. I was going to completely change direction and jobs, that our goal was for my DH to retire from his industry of AudioVisual Design and Build (at the young age of 52), and become a volunteer for the National Park Service. I would work as a Park Ranger. We would only work 6 months of the year, and volunteer and travel the other six.
I think some people heads literally EXPLODED at the thought that we would not be consumers of the USA, but finally just citizens of the USA. We would not really be buying junk and keeping up with the Jones. We got surprise, awe and skepticism from friends, family and strangers alike. First, they thought NO WAY, you'll be unable to live in such a small home for so long (we lived in the truck camper for 2.5 years!) Then it was well, ok, but you both will have to work....Nope, DH retired in 2009.
I especially loved the comment:
People can complain all day long about their jobs and how they want to win the lottery so they can quit working. YET, if you started telling them about how you plan to retire or at least cut back your hours long before you are due for retirement, they look at you as a "lazy" person trying to get out of life's "responsibilities" etc. WHAT?
This is exactly what happened to my DH. They thought he was lazy, my parents especially! I had to explain to people I volunteered with, that he was not twiddling his thumbs doing nothing, but that he was working on our rig or our trucks or learning something new. BUT WHY should I have to explain? It is our life, and we should be able to live it how we want. We have enough money, our life goals are aligned and working the way we planned them. But we continually explain. If someone learns from us, then our day is done.
Sorry for such a long post, but I TOTALLY get where your are coming from Mrs. M, been there, done that.
Bastelmutti
1-17-11, 8:57am
We get some "looks" now and then. Mostly, it's about buying a house. A couple of well-meaning family members and friends have pushed us a bit on this issue ("It's a good time to buy" - well, yes, if you have the money!), but it's just not in the cards right now. I think for a while I felt bad about this, like I wasn't measuring up, but whenever I followed the real estate ads for our area and ran the numbers, which was often, they just didn't add up. Median house here 5x our annual income - nope!!! We could afford a small condo, but it's not a good fit w/ 2 kids, 2 cats & a home office. Fortunately, we stuck to our guns and didn't get into one of these crazy mortgages.
I'm already thinking this is looking like a Best of Forums thread. >8)
My DH, who is a bench carpenter, worked at one company for 12 years, until they closed the shop. He had about a year and a half as an interim salaried manager, and when the time came to choose to stay, he went back to his hourly with time-and-a-half for overtime, and double pay in holidays. He did the simple math, and discovered that the salaried position was a decrease in pay and a major increase in headaches. The company was surprised when he chose to say no to management!
He has a BA, and was a Head Start teacher for years, which was very gratifying for him when his kids were little. He found, sadly, that he had to work a second job to support his family, so went back to the building trades that is his family's traditional work. He works at Seattle Stair & Design - check out their website! He builds the most gorgeous things.
Ljevtich. No apologies needed. :) I'm having one of those moments right now (due to all this great reading) that has prompted me to pause, take notice, and wallow in the moment. (Hands placed on either side of my cheeks, arms supported on my elbows, ahhh... sure is nice knowing others who can relate to me and my thoughts and who understand where I am coming from).
Bastelmutti. You along with all the other members here are such an inspiration to me. In a lot of ways I see comfort as being something made, something created..., you can't buy it, you have to make it, and so many don't have the basic list of ingredients needed to create a starter recipe of sorts. (But we do)! :)
CrystalAdmin. :+1:
Redfox. Whenever I come across stories like yours (like your husbands) I think to myself, how wonderful..., how wonderful it is for people to hop aboard and set sail on the "happy ship". So nice to see. :)
To all who visited me here, :thankyou:
"I experience the stigmatization the most at work. I'm satisfied with my status and have no ambition whatever to move up into management." (Jemima)
Well this I get. I could see why management might want you to move up, they are trying to promote what they view in the best interest of the company, and thus indirectly in their best interest. They actually at least have a bit of a dog in the fight in this one.
I'm not getting pressure from management, although there is definite stress regarding obtaining certain esoteric credentials pertaining to the job during one's first few years. (I have those credentials now and there are no more to get.) It's my coworkers and people on the next level up who are stunned at the thought that I have no interest in moving up into management. It's all about money to them.
I'm now at the highest level I can reach without giving up my standing as a union member. There's a lot of job security in that, and right now is not a good time to be unprotected as we just got a new governor who is bent on cutting costs, largely with layoffs. While the union can't stop layoffs, they do make every effort to find another job for the afflicted.
The next level up is also a supervisory level with absolutely no hiring/firing power and lots of responsibility. Been there and done that and don't care to ever do it again. We have a few people on staff who are so incompetent and lazy I would consider murder on a daily basis, not good for one's blood pressure. (If you're wondering why these people haven't been fired, this is state civil service. That along with union protection pretty much discourages management from trying to get rid of anyone. It takes lots and lots of time and reams of documentation. Not to mention we need the bodies according to a regulatory agency that pretty much pushes my department around according to their whim du jour.) In addition, everyone at the next level whom I've gotten to know well is unhappy with the job. Quite a few of them drink heavily. Who needs that for a few thousand more???
But hardly anybody gets it that a few thousand more does not equal happiness, contentment, or peace of mind.
Life_is_Simple
1-17-11, 7:56pm
Jemima
Your post made me laugh! :laff: ...particularly the lazy incompetents, and the heavily drinking first-line managers.
You are a very wise person to stay where you are :+1:
Jemima
Your post made me laugh! :laff: ...particularly the lazy incompetents, and the heavily drinking first-line managers.
You are a very wise person to stay where you are :+1:
Your support is greatly appreciated! Were it not for this forum, I'm not sure I could have stuck to my guns as well as I have.
Living in Southern Calif and having friends who look and live like they should be on the "Real Housewives of the OC" show does have an effect on me. While I am extremely confident with my simple-mindedness... I mean simple life style :-).. I do find that my friends and people here in general seem to judge me based on what I wear, what I drive, what kind of home I have, etc... There is a definent stigma attached to simple, frugal living here in the land of the upscale. I find it very difficult to get involved with people here because the focus seems to be on attaining more and more materialistic things at any cost. It's disheartening sometimes and even I feel alot of pressure to have nicer things to "fit in" but I still go about my life as it is and try to ignore it all. Hard to do sometimes. But hey, if they are too embarrassed to be seen in my 9 year old Hyundai Accent (time to get a new car!) I'm happy to let them chauffer me around in their $50K luxury cars and SUVs :-)!
In my part of SoCal it's not that bad, fortunately. It is upscale here too, but there are a good number of old-timers who remember where they or their parents came from.
But still there are a few I know who look down upon me for the consistently frugal choices I make. There are two in particular. I'll show you a bit of my dark side... Shhh, don't tell anyone... When I am near these two disapproving people, I make it a point to appear very happy and contented. I fortunately am, but I'll go out of my way to smile and say things like 'Isn't it just great to be alive?' or 'What a life... how could it be any better than this???'
Living well is the best revenge. :)
The more I ponder this, the more I realize that I live in a really frugal neighborhood. The majority of my neighbors are immigrants, many from Asia. EVERYONE gardens raising some food, hangs their laundry out (in defiance of the stupid HOA rules), and have older cars they do the work on, have simple homes with simple furnishings, etc.
The words "encouraging" and "uplifting" smack me again and again reading this thread. Lovely. :) Thank you everybody.
Gina, that's hilarious! I won't shun you for those occasional actions coming from your dark nature.
Throughout this thread I've mentioned our kitchen facelift. This week I've been celebrating our kitchen cabinets which I still love after 22 years. They are classic white wood, with panels and crown molding, custom made by DH.
In the world of consumerism it is heritic to love that which is 22 years old.
I go into the kitchen store and yes, the granite for counterops is beautiful! But what really tripped my trigger was walnut counter tops. OMG they were gorgeous and completely impractical.
Your kitchen sounds beautiful Iris. I'm one of those kinds of people who is easily pleased. I could live in a 100 year old home with an antique kitchen oh so happily! As long as things are neat, clean, and maintained, everything old is me!
Another example, cloth diapering. In a world where disposables are the diaper of choice in many homes, I wonder (and used to wonder) how a clothesline strewn with cotton squares and old school waterproofs is/was viewed or looked at or thought of by non-simple/non-frugal people. (Stigma attached to drying cloth diapers on my clothesline when my kids were little)? A little, but never enough to hold me back from carrying on.
Now don't get me wrong, I myself never feel or felt embarrassed, ashamed, or weird as to what I do/did in my home in the way of helping/saving the environment, being frugal and thrifty and economical, providing a healthier option for my children, or just being plain old-fashioned and traditional in my ways, but in a world where excess seems to be taking hold and expanding exponentially year after year, I can't help but wonder what others (like you) go/went through in the way of stigma related to SL.
So, if stigma colours or ever coloured your SL lifestyle to any degree, what SL practices were they? i.e. Maybe it's not owning an automatic washing machine, or maybe it's shopping thrift/consignment stores for fashions/things, or maybe it's driving the same vehicle for decades rather than just a handful of years, etc.
Mrs-M,first of all I always love that you spell certain words the way I always do(being a Brit and all that!). I loved to hang my diapers out, I always felt a sense of pride (and a little smug :/) that I was using cloth, and hanging them out to dry :) I guess I didn't really care that there was a stigma attached... Most recently, I have developed even more of an addiction to thrift shopping :( It is a problem actually... I have to limit myself to one Wednesday a month, that is when Community Aid and the Salvation Army have their half of day! It does also cause troubles with my decluttering! I have often received compliments on my various outfits, and people are surprised when I tell them that my outfit cost a total of 5 bucks, and came from the thrift store!!
Gina, that's hilarious! I won't shun you for those occasional actions coming from your dark nature.
Throughout this thread I've mentioned our kitchen facelift. This week I've been celebrating our kitchen cabinets which I still love after 22 years. They are classic white wood, with panels and crown molding, custom made by DH.
In the world of consumerism it is heritic to love that which is 22 years old.
Waiting for something to move from outdated to old to retro to vintage takes FOREVER. Hang in there, IL. In a few more years you'll be smokin' retro cool.
We have been traveling the frugal road for many years - both because it makes sense and because we do not have large incomes. I drive a 16 yr old car and do not have a cell phone (by choice) so that makes me a real weirdo. I would rather save the $12-15K a new used car would cost as long as this one gets me there and back. Occasionally, I feel like I should conform but always talk myself out of it. DH didn't go along way back when but now realizes the wisdom in spending less than one earns. It is a great feeling not to have debt and to have substantial savings. I like the idea of being secretly wealthy whether wealth means time or money. It has been interesting watching the city I live in become more materialistic (million dollar houses and expensive cars) as folks from California and other places move here in droves.
Good morning everyone! :) So nice to hear from you.
Midwife. So glad to see you here! (I've really missed your company). When I pinned diapers on my clothesline I felt like a trailblazer! :) It's such a bold and symbolic action, almost as if we as moms are calling out to everyone and saying- "look at me, look what I'm doing with my kids"... :laff: You are such an inspiration, knowing how to dress well and all, and by way of the help of smart thrift store fashion! :+1:
Pinkytoe. The bells and whistles are going off after reading your post. (Ding, ding, ding)! Oh I love that sound. It's the sound of sweet success. :D I at times look around too and think about owning a bigger home, driving fancier vehicles, and living it up on a level exceeding what DH and I currently live by, but having a nest egg and roof over our heads (that the bank doesn't own) trumps everything!
Through the help of everyone here I'm realizing (more and more) and coming to terms with and accepting "me" and "my ways" even more so than I ever could have imagined. The fact that I'm not alone in my venture and quest brings utmost comfort, peace, and calm to me. I love it!!!
:thankyou:
I live in SoCal too, but because many of my friends are engineers who like projects, they generally have a can-do fix-it DIY attitude rather than a consumerist one. I'm lucky!
Waiting for something to move from outdated to old to retro to vintage takes FOREVER. Hang in there, IL. In a few more years you'll be smokin' retro cool.
I'm also planning on re-doing the 45 yo original kitchen in this house. It has dark cabinets which finally have come back into fashion - and yes, that did take a long time. :laff:
Unfortunately I'm planning on doing some significant changes on the other side of the kitchen including a new counters and cabinets. I doubt I'll be able to either match or save those on the other side (old but still good). Maybe just new doors will do. The harvest gold sink, stovetop, and dishwasher simply must go however.
Those on HGTV (home garden tv) would cringe that it's taken this long for someone to do that. But when it gets done, it will be very nice, and best of all, paid for. :~)
ApatheticNoMore
1-20-11, 4:54pm
Living in Southern Calif and having friends who look and live like they should be on the "Real Housewives of the OC" show does have an effect on me. While I am extremely confident with my simple-mindedness... I mean simple life style :-).. I do find that my friends and people here in general seem to judge me based on what I wear, what I drive, what kind of home I have, etc... There is a definent stigma attached to simple, frugal living here in the land of the upscale. I find it very difficult to get involved with people here because the focus seems to be on attaining more and more materialistic things at any cost. It's disheartening sometimes and even I feel alot of pressure to have nicer things to "fit in"
Well there are a lot of people with a lot of money for sure (what taking on a new mortgage, paying for college, and taking a yearly or biyearly foreign vacation all at the same time? I mean really who does that? Well, I've seen it :|()
I have to kinda tune that stuff out and avert my eyes because, despite doing ok all things considered, I do wish I had that money :laff: So yes a lot of people have a lot of real money (they aren't all just living beyond their means IMO).
OTOH, if you look a little deeper there's a whole underground sustainability revolution going on as well (yes right here in River City :D, ok I don't think there actually is a river city in socal, twas a figure of speech). With a growing number of people all too aware of what is needed.
Gardenarian
1-20-11, 4:57pm
Hi -
I live in a small town that is a hotbed of gossip.
Some rumor-monger spread it around that my husband has a huge trust fund (false) and that is why we both work part-time.
It's not too hard to figure out how this got started; dh's parent's are very wealthy and he has the same name as his dad. We have not received any financial help from his family at all; my parents did give us a loan for the down payment on our house (both loan and mortgage long paid off.)
I don't know where they got the idea that because your parents are well-off, that is going to have anything to do with your personal finances. His folks are as tight as ticks, and I don't mind one bit. They are very frugal themselves!
People don't look at us and see the clothesline in the backyard, the thrift shop clothes, the front yard veggie garden, the lack of cell phones, no cable TV, no eating out, the "staycations" etc. - they see those rich, lazy folks who don't have get up every morning and trudge off to a job they hate. That's us, hanging out in the garden with dd, playing guitars and watching the moon rise. Doesn't cost a cent.
...
People don't look at us and see the clothesline in the backyard, the thrift shop clothes, the front yard veggie garden, the lack of cell phones, no cable TV, no eating out, the "staycations" etc. - they see those rich, lazy folks who don't have get up every morning and trudge off to a job they hate. That's us, hanging out in the garden with dd, playing guitars and watching the moon rise. Doesn't cost a cent.
And of course, full moon last night too - but that is the big thing with gossip, they hate their job and are jealous of you.
Hi -
That's us, hanging out in the garden with dd, playing guitars and watching the moon rise.
If you find a better way to spend a day please let me know.
This is just lovely. All the great stories and entries. Thank you everyone.
Wanting to touch on something Gardenarian mentioned. The whole thing of- "my spouses parents are rich or well off" issue. Isn't it funny how people automatically label people who have such a background as being automatically better off than everyone else. I hear it all the time and people for the most part aren't very nice about it. Jealousy seems to always taint their voices as they speak about it too.
loosechickens
1-21-11, 12:50pm
We also figure that any "stigma" we might have is easily rubbed off as people contemplate that we haven't had to work "real jobs" since we were 42 and 50 years old, live a comfortable life, and can pretty much do anything we want to do. FREEDOM is the real wealth, and I think most people are able to see when someone has it. If there IS a stigma, we've been too busy enjoying our life to notice it.
This is an interesting thread... and I'm a bit taken aback by the statements about what "they" think, believe, etc. I don't have any idea what anyone else thinks unless they tell me. I want to challenge this notion that we just know what others think and believe, just as I challenge others who assume what I think and believe. The basis of many a conflict are assumptions about others' beliefs, and acting upon misunderstandings.
I am interested in folks' feedback about this... thanks.
Well there are a lot of people with a lot of money for sure (what taking on a new mortgage, paying for college, and taking a yearly or biyearly foreign vacation all at the same time? I mean really who does that? Well, I've seen it :|()
I have to kinda tune that stuff out and avert my eyes because, despite doing ok all things considered, I do wish I had that money :laff: So yes a lot of people have a lot of real money (they aren't all just living beyond their means IMO).
OTOH, if you look a little deeper there's a whole underground sustainability revolution going on as well (yes right here in River City :D, ok I don't think there actually is a river city in socal, twas a figure of speech). With a growing number of people all too aware of what is needed.
You are right of course but I remember a time (oh so long ago) when SoCal WAS the epicenter of a more laid back, less is more kind of environmental revolution. Why has that changed? I don't know but I see SoCal as a very different place than it was years ago. I grew up in the Huntington Beach area and remember it fondly as a very relaxed surfer place where driving an old VW van and living an unmaterialistic life was "cool". Now it's full of upscale shops and restaurants with a VERY different sort of feel to the place i.e. upscale and wanting to be more than upscale. Seems like most places in SoCal have gone that route rather than maintain their "green" hippie or surfer vibe of old. As far as the people I was mentioning, I was talking specificly about the people/ friends I know personally. These are people I've known since High school and who share alot of their financial info and personal desires with me. As well as how they view my particular lifetyle and frugal living ways. I have to say that almost all of them (actually all of them) want more more more and want it now! And all of it on credit. Most have lost their jobs and are all on the verge of losing their homes yet they still want the fancier things in life at any cost. They don't really see any value in the modest way I live and often talk down about others for their the lack of ambition to attain the finer things in life.
This is an interesting thread... and I'm a bit taken aback by the statements about what "they" think, believe, etc. I don't have any idea what anyone else thinks unless they tell me. I want to challenge this notion that we just know what others think and believe, just as I challenge others who assume what I think and believe. The basis of many a conflict are assumptions about others' beliefs, and acting upon misunderstandings.
I am interested in folks' feedback about this... thanks.
My above post probably answers this question because "they" are people I know who I talk to about this stuff. They often say things (in a nice but negative way) about my frugal ways and often get very specific. Like I should get my nails done and my hair done and buy a luxury car, etc.. I am not saying they specificly put me down, but their actions and comments about other people and how they live are often very negative (is in"I only want to be around quality people" and when I ask what they mean by that, they respond " people who earn alot of money and have nice homes and cars, etc..."). That's not what a quality person is to me!
... statements about what "they" think, believe, etc. I don't have any idea what anyone else thinks unless they tell me. I want to challenge this notion that we just know what others think and believe, just as I challenge others who assume what I think and believe. The basis of many a conflict are assumptions about others' beliefs, and acting upon misunderstandings.
I am interested in folks' feedback about this... thanks.
I guess I could go back to my original statement, but we had been told we are lazy, and should be contributing to "society" by having full-time jobs, spending money, living in a stick-and-brick home and spending money on that. As a society, we all are considered CONSUMERS not citizens of the USA. When did that change? And why is a house going to bring the economy back up to speed? Economic data depends on housing starts, sold homes, under contract homes and of course foreclosures, but why should so much of our economic data depend on what we SPEND?
I told my mother this past fall that I do not want to go to a regular store and buy jeans, that I would wait until I could go to a thrift store and buy jeans. She said that I would not be able to find some and why not go to a regular store? I stated that first, the jeans in the store would be WAY more expensive than I need, even if they were half price. Second, I would rather get used jeans, might as well recycle/reuse jeans and I knew that some thrift store somewhere would have my size and length. I figure, even if these jeans were made in China or the Philippines, I was not the one who bought them first, therefore they are an American product now. (The last part is stupid, I know but as most of the clothes nowadays aren't made here, I have to make concessions.) She said that she would pay for my jeans, but I said no. It was the principle of the thing. She walked away saying that I was stubborn.
Maybe I am but I am an adult (although this conversation does not make me look like one) and I figure, as a Park Ranger, I buy tons of clothes for work. I get a small amount to help pay for my uniform that I have to wear 4-5 days a week. Shirts and pants get worn out from constant wearing. If you are on-duty, you need to be in uniform. So if I buy lots of clothes for work, I really do not need too many for afterwork and off-season.
But, my Mom remembers me before I started as a Park Ranger. I was a clothes horse. I had tons of outfits because I was in another industry, real estate computer trainer, and going into all of those offices, I had to look successful. And successful meant expensive clothes and shoes and jewelry and hairstyles. UGG, so glad I got out of that. But that is what she remembers and so somehow I should go back to it. However and thankfully, she did not stay upset for long.
When we are together, usually, it is not this constant battle. I just bring it up to explain that it is not just what I think is going on in their heads, how they act and what they say show their feelings about our lifestyle. Granted it is a complete 180 degree difference, but our life to live as we see fit.
FREEDOM is the real wealth,
Ah this is the absolute true point - irregardless of what you want to do or what you want to have in life, it's about having the freedom to live the life you want! This is the point I try to get across to my friends but unfortunately it does fall on deaf ears. Most of them still would rather take on more debt so they can have more stuff than freedom. And using myself as an exampl doesn't seem to work. But to each his own I guess.
we all are considered CONSUMERS not citizens of the USA
I drive everyone nuts because everytime I hear someone use the word "consumers" I respond in my best Elephant Man imitation and say "I am not a consumer... I am... a man!". God, I hate that word! And everything you said in your post rings true for me too - got it from both friends and some family. Now that I'm older and closer to a regular early retirement age I get it less often (the "people who don't work, don't contribute and are lazy shiftless bums" comments) but the last 11 plus years I've been "work-free" have been a constant barage of "little comments" from everyone.
This is an interesting thread... and I'm a bit taken aback by the statements about what "they" think, believe, etc. I don't have any idea what anyone else thinks unless they tell me. I want to challenge this notion that we just know what others think and believe, just as I challenge others who assume what I think and believe. The basis of many a conflict are assumptions about others' beliefs, and acting upon misunderstandings.
I am interested in folks' feedback about this... thanks.I'll concede that "some" of my thoughts related to what others think and believe definitely stem from my own overly active imagination, however many do not. I had a mother once say to me (quite a few years ago), "ewww, cloth diapers", "you can't be serious", "old-fashioned cloth diapers went out with the 60's"! "Come on, swing with the times Margaret". I thought, "what right does this woman have (who I am not even friends with) putting down MY choices". It made me suspect of everybody for a while afterwards. I thought, "if one person thinks like her surely there are others who do too".
Years earlier I had a neighbour say to me, "sewing"? Kind of like she never heard of it before. "Yeah, sewing" I repeated, "you know, where you sit down in front of a sewing machine and stitch and sew and make things". Then she got all mad and touchy over my response. I thought, "that's great if you have the money to buy whatever you want, but I have X amount of children and if I can stretch a dollar or cut household costs, then I will".
I realize I fall under the sensitive type crowd, so am easily hurt and effected by peoples comments at times, but still...
I guess I could go back to my original statement, but we had been told we are lazy, and should be contributing to "society" by having full-time jobs, spending money, living in a stick-and-brick home and spending money on that. As a society, we all are considered CONSUMERS not citizens of the USA. When did that change? And why is a house going to bring the economy back up to speed? Economic data depends on housing starts, sold homes, under contract homes and of course foreclosures, but why should so much of our economic data depend on what we SPEND?
I was once directly told that if everyone spent as little as I do, "the economy would grind to a halt". This was not intended as a compliment, but I took it as one. :~)
I've also been 'accused' of being a 'trust fund baby' (I'm not.) by someone else who IMO squanders money. If they only knew how little $$ I actually live on, they would be very shocked.
FREEDOM is the real wealth...
And time is the currency. Not much else really matters, does it? The one thing you can never really buy more of.
My friends and family sometimes make little teasing jibes about certain 'frugal' things I do, but it's all in good humour. I am very fortunate in that respect.
I do have some friends who - despite earning more than me and having less or an equal amount of outgoing money - get to the end of the month and have nothing left in their bank account. Sometimes I feel tempted to dish out advice and ideas, but I don't want to offend. I'm not sure how to approach the situation without sounding preachy, but when they are often complaining about lack of money, I feel I should say something. But maybe I also resist offering advice because I feel there might be a stigma attached to some of the things I do. I just do not know.
Mira. Friendly gibes from family and friends (for the most part) is something I openly accept (too) knowing they're only having fun with me :), but isn't it funny (not really) how a stranger can enter ones domain and suddenly be critical or one-sided of others practices and beliefs.
Sometimes I think/believe the only stigma I have is the one where I concern myself a little too much over what everyone else thinks.
I have become known as "cheap." Guess what, I don't care. I had rather be known as cheap than to be nickled and dimed to death. I am happy I don't make a habit of overspending, because the few times I really buy something I want, I can enjoy it for what it is, a treat. I am able to enjoy the simple things in life and not worry about credit card bills or the next big sale. I don't go on shopping trips as a way to pass the time and I am happy I got over it at about age 30. I'd rather go to yard sales, good will or flea markets because if I decide to buy, I probably have found a good deal.
Here's some unsolicited advice: never give advice! Especially about money.
Okay, let the gibes commence.
Wildflower
1-25-11, 4:15am
I've always marched to a different drummer, always doing my own thing. Yes, when an outsider is critical of how I live my life it can hurt my feelings a little, but mostly I just let it slide off my back these days. Seems easier to do as I get older. ;) Right now DH and I are feeling alot of admiration from our relatives, neighbors and friends - in this difficult economy we are doing ok because of our frugality and being completely debt free in our early 50's. Many are asking advice from us now because they are struggling financially, but years ago I do think they were rolling their eyes at us and our modest way of living.
Carry on, Mrs-M, with your own way of doing things, and let those unwanted criticisms roll off your back. In the end it doesn't matter what anyone thinks, only what you think of yourself. I have to remind myself of that every now and then too. :)
You guys are my comfort blanket. :) Always there, always warm, and trusty. Thanks everybody.
I'm kind of laughing to myself right now thinking, "even if comments and unsolicited remarks got the better of me, I'd hide within the confines of my very own home and continue practicing simple and frugal"! :~)
To all those who are snooty of the fact (simplicity/frugality), :moon: :laff:
My mom used to tell me - "If they don't like what they're looking at (meaning me), they can damn well look somewhere else!" Right on, mom.
I'm with you Redfox! And your mom. :D
Bump.
It took me some time to relocate this thread, but I'm so happy I did. Zoebird posted a story (happening) that affected her related to her simple living ways in another forum, and it prompted me to resurrect this thread to reiterate the importance of not allowing outside influences to alter, reshape, or change the way we as simple living practitioners choose to live.
So unfortunate it is that still, even today, some people still haven't learned a thing related to the freedom and expression of others, or the ability to show restraint and respect when it comes to how others live.
P.S. Zoebird. Was hoping this thread, with all of it's great entries, would remind you of all the great things you are doing (and do), and help encourage you further to be happy and proud with your choices and all that you are doing!
The only time I've felt stigma was with regard to wardrobe. I'm not a big clothes buyer for myself, and when we were a young family and struggling financially, I couldn't afford many clothes for my kids. So one time, a neighbor dropped off a bag of clothes her kids had outgrown. I guess she assumed we needed them--there are plenty of clothing drop boxes in our neighborhood she could have dropped them off at. I didn't feel bad for me, but I felt bad for my kids, if that was how they were being perceived by their peers. We live in a neighborhood in which kids ask and they get. Very upwardly mobile--we're outside of Princeton NJ so the snootiness tends to have a halo effect in the surrounding suburbs.
On the same token, my own wardrobe has been taken to task. I only buy clothes I need. When I was working in an office, that meant one outfit for every day of the week. Why would I need more? But one time, a Nieman Marcus Christmas catalog arrived in the mail, and my co-worker and I were looking through it, amazed at the ridiculous prices. We saw a sweater that was priced at $600 and she said in an understated, but catty way, "$600! Your whole wardrobe."
I had to laugh. Actually, my wardrobe at that time was probably worth less than $600. I think I was still wearing 10 year old skirts and stuff.
I get a fair amount of grief over being frugal and have a good balance of friends who are like minded. I've lost friends over spending issues, which doesn't exactly make me "content". A few were good people. But I would like to live my life as though it's not all about money and things. I try to be environmentally concious and it's hard to spend money without increasing my carbon footprint. Living true to beliefs is a good thing and maybe even a good example for others.
Anyway, that's my readers digest version of a long response I gave up on. I have laminate counter tops, which I like, and a friend who makes ziploc driers (a wooden plaque with upright dowels for hanging the bags on). Though I still prefer to hang my ziplocs on the line. The house is paid off and the little old truck runs like a top. Live is good.
Catherine. I remember school kids, my elementary school years, who would show up on the first day of school wearing old, worn-out, tattered, and faded clothes and dirty old shoes, and I'd think, "I feel so sorry for that kid". Everyone else dressed so nice, wearing everything brand new, and here is this child having to show up in old rundown attire in front of everyone. Even at my young age I cried inside for them.
I think I was more in tune with that sort of thing coming from a family where, although we never had much money, mom and dad always did their best to ensure us kids had the basics and looked nice and were cared for. i.e. Hair cuts, combed hair, bathed, and so on. But I remember one tough year in particular where we were really hurting (financially) and a neighbour brought over two large green plastic garbage bags of old clothes for us kids. A mishmash of things, everything from jackets, to pants and jeans, tops, and shirts, all things kids need. My mom was thrilled! I on the other-hand was embarrassed and thought to myself, "I don't want to wear that", yet I had enough maturity and sense about me to appreciate what mom and dad were going through, so in the end I did end up wearing items from those two bags, but I'll never forget how I'd glance over at the neighbours every so often to see if the lady who gifted us with the two bags of things, was looking at us in our secondhand clothing.
Now, if society (people in general) were more in step with those who are less fortunate, which, first off, would require that people drop being "so into themselves", there would be less stigma attached to hand-me-downs and things, and children (the ones who always seem to be at the brunt of embarrassment and shame related to such), wouldn't have to go through such hurt and pain and maybe, just maybe, kids from impoverished homes could attend the first day of school with pride and happiness, wearing something clean and presentable (and new to them), something to make them feel good about themselves again, giving them new hope and reason to smile.
Rogar. Sadly, we too have lost friends/acquaintances over spending issues. The losses we suffered were related to trips, costly trips, and although I'm sure the other parties were convinced "we had it", the truth of the matter was, we didn't, yet being honest and forthcoming created a barrier or sorts and within a relatively short time, the relationship we had with those in question simply dissolved. Each of us going our own separate ways.
It hurt me dearly, but it hurt DH on an entirely different level, because he's so proud and tries so hard to do his best and always be his best, yet even making what he makes (above average earnings), with the cost of living so high and our large family, certain things (for now) are just plain old not doable. Yet it's amazing that certain people don't understand that.
Re: drying Ziploc bags on the line, I am so with you!
What a terrific thread!
We too, have had a long term friendship somewhat damaged by my frugal/green life choices. There was often times the rolling eyes whenever I talked about learning to make something instead of buying it. But the corker was when they invited us to join them at a really expensive restaurant. They had a gift certificate that would pay for most of their meal. We didn't. We also had to drive 80 miles round trip to pay for our expensive meal. So I passed on it. They were offended. Oops.
It used to bother me when people looked at me like I was green and had horns. I guess it still does sometimes. But when I'm in the garden eating a sun warmed ripe tomato, cursing the squash bugs...I feel good about how I have chosen to live.
Hi Marianne. My mom has this old porcelain plate hanging on a wall in her kitchen that reads, "true friends are like diamonds, precious but rare, false friends are like autumn leaves, found everywhere". I have reminded myself of that verse many, many times over the years, and although loosing people as in friends and acquaintances can prove to be trying and upsetting (at the time), when all is said and done (so it seems) one is almost always able to look back on, and reflect on the circumstances that unfolded, helping one to realize that there was nothing there in the first place. Emptiness was all that was there. Meaningless nothing. For the better.
I find the older I get, the more happy and content I am, doing my own thing, little things, and just being who I want to be. That's where I find solace and solitude, and if others don't like it, I think, "it doesn't matter, because I never invited you into, or to be a part of that area or portion of my private life in the first place, so you have no right casting your view on what you do or don't like pertaining to my life". I'm at peace with my choices and decisions.
Mighty Frugal
9-14-11, 12:42pm
In my neck of the woods, hand-me-downs are not looked down upon. We love it when my GF-who has 2 boys slightly older than mine, gives me bags of her kids' hand-me-downs (even-shocking-underwear!) We also pay it forward and give a neighbour who has 2 boys slightly younger than ours hand-me-downs. We are all very casual and happy for the clothes and I don't do it because of perceived poverty. I do it because the clothes are still in good condition and why throw them away or send them to a stranger when I KNOW they can use it-and my GF feels the same when she gives me hers
domestic goddess
9-14-11, 1:12pm
Stigma is something I have to say I haven't experienced, at least not in the area of frugality or simple living. I just do what I do, and don't make a big deal about it. And I am fortunate that I work alone, so there is no one around to view my choices and comment.
I really like hanging my clothes to dry, either outdoors or in. I never see clothes line-drying outside around here, and I don't know whether it isn't permitted, or whether no one here just does that. I'm thinking about getting something portable for next summer to use on the deck, that I can use in the basement during the winter. Otherwise, most of my "frugal" stuff happens indoors so, again, it isn't visible to many people.
Dgd1 gets bags of her cousin's hand-me-downs. There are only three girls in the family around here, so they share a lot. Since they live in different cities, there is none of that sticky stuff where someone at school might recognize the outfit. The clothes are then handed down to dgd2, then they seem to wind up stored for all eternity, because dd can't get rid of things. Like either of the girls is going to shrink and need them again! Still, we have to do better at donating them somewhere.
People rarely say anything to me about how I live. Maybe they just accept that I am a little "eccentric" about some things and don't carry on about it. Maybe they just think I am too old or too stubborn to change. Maybe they just don't care. I don't. I don't know or care what they think, and maybe I convey that attitude. I hope I don't, but I know I am getting crustier with passing time.
Crustier... that's pretty good! Me, too.
I find the older I get, the more happy and content I am, doing my own thing, little things, and just being who I want to be. That's where I find solace and solitude, and if others don't like it, I think, "it doesn't matter, because I never invited you into, or to be a part of that area or portion of my private life in the first place, so you have no right casting your view on what you do or don't like pertaining to my life". I'm at peace with my choices and decisions.
Amen! I love getting older. I am so much more comfortable in my own skin. If younger people knew how great getting older can be, they wouldn't look down on older people. I'll take my perspective on the top of the mountain anytime to being in the valley of inexperience.
Mighty Frugal. Same said for our neck of the woods. My experience with hand-me-downs has always been good, as in, the quality of the clothing being passed down has always clean and in near to new condition, so that in itself makes all the difference in the world. MML (make me laugh) Re: the used underwear!
One really big added bonus Re: passing down/exchanging clothing with other families, is the social side/aspect of it all. For me, being the stay-at-home mom that I am, getting that call from a neighbour or friend saying, "Margaret, I have a bag of this or a box of that, or one of these, are you interested", makes for a good occasion to put on a pot of tea or coffee and sit down together and have a visit. I like that!
Domestic Goddess. I believe what little stigma has plagued me at times was solely brought on by my own over-active mind and thoughts, not as the result of being judged or evaluated in a negative way or context by others. Still, I have experienced certain subtle innuendos in my day such as, "mothers who use cloth diapers are hippies", that sort of thing, and I find it to be such a turn-off.
Regarding everything I do related to frugality and simplicity, I've been doing it for so long now that not only do I have my feet firmly planted on solid ground in relation to my stance (and level of comfort) related to how I do/practice things, I've reached a point where outside influences simply do not bother me anymore. (I'll do my thing, and you do yours)...
Just to touch on clothesline drying for a stint, I take the same course of direction whenever I leave the house (driving), and I cherish passing by all the familiar houses on my way that ALWAYS have laundry outside drying on the line! So dedicated the homeowners are. Takes me back to the 70's and 80's when everyone clothesline dried! P.S. Re: crusty/crunchiness, I'm totally with you! I definitely classify myself as being crunchy. Love that term!!!
Marianne. So glad to hear it!
Catherine. Very well said!!!
I started reading this thread and realized that it was 11 pages, so I haven't read thru them all. Forgive me if I repeat someone.
My take on simplicity/frugality/minimalism is that it is just plainly and simply good stewardship of what we have earned/been given.
When we spend money (CC, etc) that we really don't have for things we don't need we are not being responsible. I know that there are problems that come along like illnessess and other unforseen tragedies, so sometimes we have to go into debt, but that should be the exception and not the rule. ( I have done all of the above.)
When we try to do things frugally, we are setting an example for others, especially our children. Oh, they may make fun of us, but they will remember one day. We are also teaching simple problem solving and self reliance.
Sherry
So, carry on with pride, I say!!!!! :)
There's no stigma attached to simple living here. Like Mighty Frugal, we pass around clothes because we'd be crazy not to. We all thrift store/garage sale shop, take hand-me-down anything, trash pick and share stuff. I have a neighbor who raised chickens in her townhouse courtyard. Lots of people line dry their clothes and drive older cars. I know lots of early retirees, SAHPs and people who've gone to part-time work. The income level in this suburb is probably middle to upper-middle class. I have a couple of WWII age neighbors who make me look like a spendthrift.
The "green" thing is getting pretty popular here too. It's a place that probably attracts that type, since it's centrally located, walkable, has plenty of outdoor recreation nearby and has huge potential for a green revitalization. Not that I've been daydreaming or anything. :)
Since this thread has been bumped up, I'm curious how Iris Lily's kitchen has turned out. :)
Originally posted by Sissy.
My take on simplicity/frugality/minimalism is that it is just plainly and simply good stewardship of what we have earned/been given.I like that!
Originally posted by Sissy.
When we try to do things frugally, we are setting an example for others, especially our children. Oh, they may make fun of us, but they will remember one day. We are also teaching simple problem solving and self reliance.And this too!!! Thanks for the great post Sherry.
Stella. I am so encouraged by the news that line-drying and "Green" in your area is popular as ever and growing! I gain so much energy from that. Really helps add bounce into my step.
Daisy. Me too!
The more I ponder this, the more I realize that I live in a really frugal neighborhood. The majority of my neighbors are immigrants, many from Asia. EVERYONE gardens raising some food, hangs their laundry out (in defiance of the stupid HOA rules), and have older cars they do the work on, have simple homes with simple furnishings, etc.
It's funny because I lived in an asian immigrant neighborhood (Little Saigon) for many years and found that most of my neighbors - the second generation and beyond at least - were VERY upscale wanna-bes. Everyone drove a Lexis or Mercedes, had fancy boats and toys, very well dressed in designer clothes, etc... Totally different from the first few waves of Vietnamese refugees and immigrants who came over - a very frugal, down to earth group of people who lived much like they did in Vietnam raising their own food (woke to the sound of roosters crowing in my suburban tract 'hood), growing food, sharing communal housing with several other familiys or family members, etc.... The funny thing is that even the second and third generation of Vietnamese-Americans still live in large multi-generational family groups in one house. Both sets of grandparents, siblings, aunts and uncle, and kids. They pool their money and resources to be able to pay cash for their homes and "stuff" rather than get deep into debt. I always admired that way of living. I lived with 2 other people in my house (and even ex-dh and I had a roommate the first year we bought the house) to help with expenses but I was still the least populated house on the block :-)! And when dh and I broke up and the roommates moved out (after I became FI and retired) I was down right strange to my neighbors - the only caucasian person in the 'hood and the only one living alone :-)!
HappyHiker
9-15-11, 2:09pm
I used to get "teased" for riding my bike everywhere, but not so much any more. Guess the economy and gas prices have caught up and now I'm seeing many more folks pedaling their bikes around town on errands, shopping and to work.
Does my heart good!
Spartana. I loved reading your story! I babysat for an East Indian family in the 80's who were much like the people you talk about. They too, had lived in a home (prior to moving here) with two other families, and had done well financially, and the mother was super frugal and thrifty and simple living conscious. No fancy-schmancy anything, just the basics, and what a cook she was!
Even though I was always impressed by families who were frugal, I never gave it a whole lot of thought when I was younger, because being raised in a home where simplicity and frugality was the order of the day, I was used to all things frugal and simple, but somehow, the older I got, I reflected a lot on the many families I babysat for and reminded myself about all the different ways the mothers did things and used things (and what they used). I do think it helped to define me, more so, over and above the influence my own mom had on me growing up. Being exposed to a more self-sufficient way of living at an early age really does help shape and mould a person that much more IMO.
HappyHiker. Shame on them, the people who were at the heart of all the teasing. We have a couple of neighbours who ride to and from work/school (faithfully) every day, and I view it as both an environmental and health cause. I also remember reading a wonderful story of a woman who started up a diaper service in Toronto Canada, and she did all the deliveries on her bicycle! (Mighty Frugal may be able to elaborate more on it). Three cheers for pedal power!!!
Spartana. I loved reading your story! I babysat for an East Indian family in the 80's who were much like the people you talk about. They too, had lived in a home (prior to moving here) with two other families, and had done well financially, and the mother was super frugal and thrifty and simple living conscious. No fancy-schmancy anything, just the basics, and what a cook she was!
Even though I was always impressed by families who were frugal, I never gave it a whole lot of thought when I was younger, because being raised in a home where simplicity and frugality was the order of the day, I was used to all things frugal and simple, but somehow, the older I got, I reflected a lot on the many families I babysat for and reminded myself about all the different ways the mothers did things and used things (and what they used). I do think it helped to define me, more so, over and above the influence my own mom had on me growing up. Being exposed to a more self-sufficient way of living at an early age really does help shape and mould a person that much more IMO.
My Mom owned that house (in Westminster, Calif - in the heart of Little Saigon - now the largest Vietnamese community oiutside of Vietnam and the third largest asian community in the USA) from the early 1970's and we all lived there when the first wave of Vietnamese refugees began arriving. Talk about culture shock - for the refugees as well as the mostly anglo and hispanic in the community! VERY different communal lifestyle which took alot of getting use to by everyone. Was sort of crazy-interesting for awhile. She lived there until 1996 when I bought her house from her and by then most of the area was almost 100% Vietnamese but more culturally "American" - with an asian twist of course! Lots of the old folks still practice the traditional ways, but it's very americanized now. And getting more and more comercial and consumer driven unfortuantely.
P.S. Wanted to add that my Mom always took in a renter or two to make ends meet while she lived in that house - even when us kids were still living there (we had a converted garage she rented out) and when I was around 17 or so she rented it out to a newly arrived vietnamese refugess brother and sister (about 18 years old) and THAT was a great eye opening experience for us all. They had come from a farm community where everyone lived in a communal way - sharing litterally everything. The brother and sister would often wander into my sisters or my or my brother bedrooms and just "borrow" things (clothes, etc...), share them with friends in the 'hood or whatever. It took forever for them to understand that we didn't do that (they didn't speak english). Anyways, it was very fun in a wild and crazy way, and a great experience for 3 teenage kids! My poor mOm though struggeled a bit but they were very nice and VERY respectful.
My neighborhood has more and more East Asians--Indians, etc. They are also very family-oriented, and live in multi-generational situations. In fact, I'm waiting for the day when we can sell my house and my brother-in-law's next door as a package deal--I'm pretty sure we'll get a few bites if we give a discounted rate for two houses side-by-side!!
In a way, it's too bad the East is becoming Westernized... good in many ways I guess, as long as they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I had a project manager that reported to me who was from India. He noted that I drove a VW Beetle at the time, and he said "Oh, those are supposed to be good cars." Sensing he was baiting me, I asked him, "And what do you drive?" "Oh, I have a Lexus SUV" he said. "I've had it for three years now!" He was so proud of that SUV! He was also looking to move his family into a house from the apartment he had. I had told him that I raised 4 kids in a 1 bathroom home, and the wife was aghast. There was no way she was going to move to a house with one bathroom, even though she only had one child (and went back to work as quickly as she could).
So our Western ideals have attracted some Eastern folks. Some retain cultural values like multigenerational living, and the others have jumped happily onto the treadmill of work and consumerism
So our Western ideals have attracted some Eastern folks. Some retain cultural values like multigenerational living, and the others have jumped happily onto the treadmill of work and consumerism
Yes I've seen both. My next door neighbors, who were Cambodian, retain alot of the old culture but also got the home equalty loans to live "The American Dream" of mass consumerism. We'd go to his house for a traditional Buddhist blessing (like for a childs birth or house blessing) complete with robed monks chanting with begging bowls, burning incense and alms, and traditional food made by the old ladies crouched over traditional cooking fires in the garage, everyone adorned in traditional clothing and head gear. Great! Sad to say he lost his house to foreclosure due to trying to live the American Dream instead of sticking to more asian cultural values regarding money. More stories like that in the old 'hood unfortunately.
Spartana. What an incredible experience having the opportunity to live with and interact on a daily basis with others entirely different culturally. Even if language barriers are present, I still find there to be much learning to be had.
To both you Spartana and you Catherine. In our area the older generation of Italian immigrants have kept to their traditional old world ways. They all live frugally and simply, and it so nice to see. It's like stepping back in time when visiting with them or interacting with them. They aren't the least bit interested in fancy-schmancy anything, just proud to have a home bought and paid for, their garden, a reliable vehicle to go back and forth in, and good health. And really, that's all that matters at the end of the day.
There have been times where I've thought to myself, if I moved to another country, how would I live in relation to the rest of the population of that country. Would I stay the same, or would I allow myself to be stimulated and branch out and eventually be like the rest. It's an interesting thought, one I've visited many times, much the same as being simple and frugal, i.e. setting myself apart from the majority of the population to be different in my beliefs and ways surrounding everyday living. It's funny how cultural influences can manipulate the weak and eventually take hold and push out everything traditional and old.
Originally posted by Catherine.
don't throw the baby out with the bathwaterI've love that saying!!!
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