How does the government actually intrude?

[RosieTR]

I keep hearing people complaining on how onerous the "government intrusion" is in the US which confuses me. I mean, yes I have a decent portion of my paycheck removed prior to its deposit for taxes, but I get something back for it (see partial list below). Really, the only time I actually feel intrusion by the government is when I'm in an airport, or buying alcohol or would otherwise be buying pot. Sometimes other things annoy me but would not count as actually intrusive behavior. But, I may have a sheltered perspective...so what is intrusive that the government does to you or someone you know?

Partial list of things I have benefited from, generally paid for by public funds:
Interstate highways I or DH use almost daily
my life, as well as the lives of many people I know and love, due to medical research probably ultimately paid for by the government
most of my education
drinking water more or less uncontaminated with pathogens and most toxins
reasonably clean air to breathe
not having electrical lines running along the street
electricity that runs 24/7 except in the occasional case of a bad storm
the ability to summon the police or fire fighters in a few minutes
the ability to purchase something and generally feel like it is what it says is, especially food
freedom from food poisoning most of the time
the knowledge that if something costs about $1 today, it will likely cost around $1 tomorrow rather than $10 or $100
the feeling that I can generally walk on the street and not get shot or beat up or raped or chased down by rabid dogs (or if any of those things happen at least someone is likely to do something about it)
the internet that I'm using right now
the ability to visit wild places that aren't owned by anyone
the ability to put gasoline in my car and not have it wreck the engine because it's not actually gas, or the wrong type of gas
a helpful guide on said internet on how to start a business should I wish to
Knowledge that the money in my bank account is neither going to be seized randomly nor disappear if the bank fails

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well the government could be spying on your internet, your phone, etc., but you probably wouldn't know it if they were. Nah this isn't paranoia, or thinking I'm personally so special that I'm a government target. This is merely telecom immunity and what it means.

Maybe also the profiliferation of survalience cameras everwhere? These aren't secret, ever look up in a busy part of town?

[peggy]

Most of those surveillance cameras are actually privately owned. Businesses have them in their parking lots and garages for, well, security for their employees and customers. There are traffic cameras but just don't run red lights! I've have the misfortune of having a cement truck run a red light and broadside me. Although there were witnesses, it sure would have been definitive if there had been a traffic camera. I'm not so bothered by downtown cameras. After all, this is public places maintained by the city/state (not the federal government, as it turns out) When I'll get up in arms is when they put them on my private road. But that won't happen. Everything isn't a slippery slope.
Adding to the list:

libraries. I simply could not live without them
schools. An educated public is a productive, progressive public. (yes yes, I know, they need work, but mostly they do what they need to do. )
Public parks.

[iris lily]

Well the government could be spying on your internet, your phone, etc., but you probably wouldn't know it if they were. Nah this isn't paranoia, or thinking I'm personally so special that I'm a government target. This is merely telecom immunity and what it means.

Maybe also the proliferation of survalience cameras everwhere? These aren't secret, ever look up in a busy part of town?

I watched a film recently call Red Road that took place in Scotland that centered on the technical surveillance by police of citizens. Yes, it's drama, but WOW! I found it just creepy, not that I especially mind being watched, it's that this group thinks they can protect me by watching me, my street, my neighborhood. That seems extemely naive to me. I'd like to know more about demonstrated results of this surveillance system.

[Zigzagman]

As far a federal government, I wish they were more intrusive in terms of regulating our financial system, food, and public services (air, water,electricity,etc.) I do think the Patriot Act is unnecessary and too invasive into personal privacy and should be overturned.

At the local level the only thing that bothers me is that we seem to becoming more and more of a Police State. It seems that our local law enforcement is becoming more and more militaristic in the way they deal with people. Our local justice system (Texas) seems more concerned with prosecution than justice in many instances.

All-in-all I think our government does a pretty good job!

Lilly - As a MI-5 fan I often wonder our accurate the CCTV portion of their episodes are - they seem to be able to track someone almost anywhere they go!

Peace

[creaker]

One thing that worries me is a government well equipped for intrusion being driven by corporate interests.

I'd be curious as to what technology (facial recognition, etc) besides pepper spray is being deployed at OWS.

[iris lily]

While I believe the OP means direct intervention in our personal lives, I will relate the issue that comes up immediately with me, one that is one step removed from my personal life: my immediate neighborhood.

For years in this neighborhood we've been working to restore the historic houses here and to build a strong community, and for years the Feds with their acres of land devoted to public housing has worked against that. I won't go into details about decades of meetings and planning and more meetings and more planning that we've done with the local representatives of HUD (Housing & Urban Development) because that's too boring. But it all was pretty much for naught and they continue to railroad over this neighborhood.

But let me tell you about the latest battle: during the run up of real estate in the last decade the Feds suddenly put a "hold" on all vacant land owned by the city that is in the boundaries of my neighborhood. Not only that, they targeted all vacant land in my quadrant privately owned. Imagine my surprise to find my flower gardens on MY OWN LAND on the target map of HUD for public housing. Of course that just served to increase my animosity toward those clueless MF's (and they will be getting my land only after they pry it out of my cold dead hands and I WILL take a few of them down with me. )

Anyway...

The clueless Feds in their ongoing idiocy tied up blocks of vacant land, land that builder after builder petitioned to build on, to put up expensive houses that would raise the tax revenue of my 'nabe and this city.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! The feds continued to hang on to the land until about 2009 when they "released" it after having done nothing with it, nothing at all. Ya knows what happened then--the housing bubble burst. Good timing, *ssholes! Now, far fewer builders are around in this city, far fewer want to build here, and the quality of structure that we can get is less than would have been standard in 2005. The entire lot of vacant land will not be developed in my lifetime.

The Feds decimated private development in my neighborhood and that has permanent consequences.

I hate HUD now and forever.

[Zigzagman]

One thing that worries me is a government well equipped for intrusion being driven by corporate interests.

I'd be curious as to what technology (facial recognition, etc) besides pepper spray is being deployed at OWS.

I have a good friend that is a deputy US Marshall and is directly involved in these types of things. At any protest or rally of significance (even a few 100) he or someone in his department is sent there. His job is to go as one of the participants and identify the leaders of the rally, take photos, and just get a general idea of whats happening. Not sure of the intent and have never asked.

Peace

[rosebud]

While I believe the OP means direct intervention in our personal lives, I will relate the issue that comes up immediately with me, one that is one step removed from my personal life: my immediate neighborhood.

For years in this neighborhood we've been working to restore the historic houses here and to build a strong community, and for years the Feds with their acres of land devoted to public housing has worked against that. I won't go into details about decades of meetings and planning and more meetings and more planning that we've done with the local representatives of HUD (Housing & Urban Development) because that's too boring. But it all was pretty much for naught and they continue to railroad over this neighborhood.

But let me tell you about the latest battle: during the run up of real estate in the last decade the Feds suddenly put a "hold" on all vacant land owned by the city that is in the boundaries of my neighborhood. Not only that, they targeted all vacant land in my quadrant privately owned. Imagine my surprise to find my flower gardens on MY OWN LAND on the target map of HUD for public housing. Of course that just served to increase my animosity toward those clueless MF's (and they will be getting my land only after they pry it out of my cold dead hands and I WILL take a few of them down with me. )

Anyway...

The clueless Feds in their ongoing idiocy tied up blocks of vacant land, land that builder after builder petitioned to build on, to put up expensive houses that would raise the tax revenue of my 'nabe and this city.

But NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! The feds continued to hang on to the land until about 2009 when they "released" it after having done nothing with it, nothing at all. Ya knows what happened then--the housing bubble burst. Good timing, *ssholes! Now, far fewer builders are around in this city, far fewer want to build here, and the quality of structure that we can get is less than would have been standard in 2005. The entire lot of vacant land will not be developed in my lifetime.

The Feds decimated private development in my neighborhood and that has permanent consequences.

I hate HUD now and forever.


That is understable, but not every federal program is as mismanaged as HUD.

I also have some issues with HUD as a real estate attorney. Try closing a deal with a HUD owned property...

[talula]

Iris Lily, I read your comment the day you posted it. I saw Red Road probably a year or two ago. The really bizarre thing is that I was literally (really!), two days before you posted, thinking about that movie, and I could not for the life of me remember the name of it. That is exactly the movie I was thinking of -- I knew it was "Something Road" but couldn't remember what the "something" was. It was one of those just out of grasp, tip of the tongue things. I can't even remember why I was thinking about it, but I am so glad you mentioned it and still think it's totally random that you did, and that I read it. :) Sorry, completely off-topic, but I couldn't resist saying something.


I watched a film recently call Red Road that took place in Scotland that centered on the technical surveillance by police of citizens. Yes, it's drama, but WOW! I found it just creepy, not that I especially mind being watched, it's that this group thinks they can protect me by watching me, my street, my neighborhood. That seems extemely naive to me. I'd like to know more about demonstrated results of this surveillance system.

[iris lily]

Iris Lily, I read your comment the day you posted it. I saw Red Road probably a year or two ago. The really bizarre thing is that I was literally (really!), two days before you posted, thinking about that movie, and I could not for the life of me remember the name of it. That is exactly the movie I was thinking of -- I knew it was "Something Road" but couldn't remember what the "something" was. It was one of those just out of grasp, tip of the tongue things. I can't even remember why I was thinking about it, but I am so glad you mentioned it and still think it's totally random that you did, and that I read it. :) Sorry, completely off-topic, but I couldn't resist saying something.

Stop digging into my brain! ha ha! I know that's weird, it's not a well known film. I checked it out from Netflix because I enjoyed another film by that director, but Red Road was mediocre.

[Jemima]

I have a dossier on file with the FBI because I participated in the first Earth Day, decades ago. My second husband was wise to Federal intrusion and snooping on citizens and insisted that I ask for a copy under the Freedom of Information Act. You might be surprised at what they know about you. I certainly was.

[heydude]

the government intrudes by constantly asking me to care about people that live in the same country as me! i mean, it is like we are all supposed to come together and like care about each other and stuff. what ever happened to give me what i want and screw everyone else, hehehehehehe.

next thing, they'll claim that religion is about making us love each other too! that will be the day!

[peggy]

the government intrudes by constantly asking me to care about people that live in the same country as me! i mean, it is like we are all supposed to come together and like care about each other and stuff. what ever happened to give me what i want and screw everyone else, hehehehehehe.

next thing, they'll claim that religion is about making us love each other too! that will be the day!


:laff::laff::laff:

[JaneV2.0]

Iris Lily, if I were in your gardening clogs I'd hate HUD too. We are supposed to be masters of our government, not the other way around. To make that work, we have to be a lot more hands-on than most of us are.

I saw a report once on a pilot program in which those eligible for HUD-type housing were instead given vouchers to live in private rentals instead of the ugly high-rises we generally think of. For at least some of the HUD clients, it worked well. I don't know if this alternative still exists anywhere.

[jennipurrr]

I have a dossier on file with the FBI because I participated in the first Earth Day, decades ago. My second husband was wise to Federal intrusion and snooping on citizens and insisted that I ask for a copy under the Freedom of Information Act. You might be surprised at what they know about you. I certainly was.

Oooh, wow thanks for sharing. Since 9/11 my DH who has a very common English sounding name, has had difficulty flying. He can't check in online and always gets hung up at security. Someone told us someone else with his name was on the 'watch list'. About 5 years ago we went to the airport here and we had just gotten there and a security person said, "you work at XX Corporation, is that correct?" and said they "were just confirming his identity." That completely freaked us both out. So, I've always joked that he definitely is on file and after that incident I think we are sure he is on file, hopefully just to rule out that he is not the terrorist person. The extent of his political involvement is voting, and he is a mild mannered computer programmer, so I think they are barking up the wrong tree. But, I've always assumed the government can/will find out all they can about you if they feel they need to. I joke now that there must be a Scottish terrorist running around because my husband's name is very similar to William Wallace.

Aside from that very active intrusion, I can't think of a lot of government intrusion into my life. There are a lot of zoning issues going on locally because my city was hit by a tornado, but I think overall having zoning/smart urban planning in the middle of a city is not necessarily a bad thing even if that means owners can not rebuild their businesses that are deemed not in compliance with the city plan. People are griping over sidewalks being put in on "their property"?!?!?! Also, most of the businesses not being able to rebuild are title pawns or car washes that were really just a front for selling drugs. So, I don't mind that. I guess if I owned the land or the business I may have a different opinion, but I am excited about the sidewalks/walking trails.

The city traffic cams are broadcast on a local tv station here. A few years ago the operator was zooming the cam down women's blouses at one college pedestrian filled intersection. He got fired since I guess the images were broadcast to 100K people!

[jennipurrr]

I saw a report once on a pilot program in which those eligible for HUD-type housing were instead given vouchers to live in private rentals instead of the ugly high-rises we generally think of. For at least some of the HUD clients, it worked well. I don't know if this alternative still exists anywhere.

The program is called Section 8 and it is very much alive, at least in my area. This article is a bit dated (2008) but it highlights some of the problems with Section 8 - http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2008/07/american-murder-mystery/6872/#

Didn't mean to derail this thread!

[JaneV2.0]

"Starting in 1977, in what became known as the Gautreaux program, hundreds of families relocated to suburban neighborhoods—most of them about 25miles from the ghetto, with very low poverty rates and good public schools. The authorities had screened the families carefully, inspecting their apartments and checking for good credit histories. " (from Atlantic article cited above)

I think this is what I saw--the 60 Minutes report. The only person I know of involved with Section 8 is an eighty-something woman living in a peaceful apartment house where the most exciting event is a potluck, so that article was eye-opening.

[iris lily]

...

I saw a report once on a pilot program in which those eligible for HUD-type housing were instead given vouchers to live in private rentals instead of the ugly high-rises we generally think of. For at least some of the HUD clients, it worked well. I don't know if this alternative still exists anywhere.

oh no no no. Section 8 has been around for at least 30 years. In my view Section 8 is disastrous for neighborhoods. In my 'nabe where there is blessed little Sec 8 because we are too high rent, you sure know where those units are, they stick out like a sore thumb. In this city 3 Section 8 units on one block will kill the block. Forgetabboudit, it's too far gone for reasonable people to ever move there. Section 8 was the brainchild of HUD social engineers of the 70's that followed immediately on the heels of those "progressives" (more social engineering) of the 1950's who cleared slums and put up clean new high rise towers that remained that way for about 5 seconds until they became dens of filth and misery.

St. Louis has the distinction of being the epicenter of high rise poverty housing where the notorious Pruitt-Iggo Housing projects existed. HUD has entirely earned my disdain for what it's done to this city.

The thinking now is that low income people "should" (love those engineers!) live amongst those of higher incomes but since HUD can get few to actually invest their own money in places next to many Section 8 units, HUD ends up building all of the units and sells or rent them to regular income people at steep price reductions in order to achieve their social dream of mixed neighborhoods (where "mixed" refers to income.) It's a joke.

[kenh]

I think we might finally get rid of HUD, during this debt crisis negotiation!

[herbgeek]

My own personal Section 8 experience was when we owed a condo in a lower rent town. The owner next door bought the property as investment property, then turned it into section 8 housing. I got the delightful experience of living next to a teenage mother with 2 children and her non working boyfriend. There were parties under my bedroom window at 1am on a Monday, he would use his chain saw in the living room particularly late at night, he'd jump down 6 stairs at a time in boots and my walls would shake, their friends would take up all the parking, the friends keyed my car, and attempted to break into my storage unit. It was just a nightmare. When we wrote to the condo association, the landlord called me a suburban busybody with nothing better to do than complain. At the time I was working full time during the day and attending grad school at night, and just wanted a few hours of peace and quiet. The tenant pulled the "I have a sick child" card, saying he had breathing problems all the while I smelled constant cigarette smoke because they kept the windows open even in the cold weather, because they weren't paying for the heat. (Ya think maybe all the smoking could have been a bad influence?).

The tenants wound up moving out in the middle of the night in October. The landlord was so scared of them, he called ME, the busybody, a couple of weeks later to ask me if the tenants were gone. They had left all the windows open, at a time of the year where the temps go below freezing. The landlord had to gut the place afterwards.

I think in theory, the low income people are supposed to want to fit in and emulate middle class habits like going to a job, and being a quiet neighbor, and picking up their trash, but the actuality was that they just made life hell for the middle class people around them.

[iris lily]

I think we might finally get rid of HUD, during this debt crisis negotiation!

if only. it won't happen, but I can dream.

[iris lily]

...I think in theory, the low income people are supposed to want to fit in and emulate middle class habits like going to a job, and being a quiet neighbor, and picking up their trash, but the actuality was that they just made life hell for the middle class people around them.

"...are supposed to want..." and "...emulate middle class" are indeed the ideas behind it. How can these poor people know how to achieve the goals of the dominant culture if they are not exposed to them? And yadda yadda yadda of the bossypants social engineers who have NO PERSONAL STAKE in my neighborhood.

[creaker]

"...are supposed to want..." and "...emulate middle class" are indeed the ideas behind it. How can these poor people know how to achieve the goals of the dominant culture if they are not exposed to them? And yadda yadda yadda of the bossypants social engineers who have NO PERSONAL STAKE in my neighborhood.

I think sadly a lot of people who are doing this "social engineering" are there solely for their own paycheck (not all by any means and I'm thinking more the higher ranks that set policy) and carry a lot of the same prejudices towards the poor many others do. So they (and many landlords) don't differentiate between those looking for a handout and those looking for a hand up and just paint all poor with the brush. The dumped mom with 2 kids, a job, and working through school so she can get a real job often isn't considered any differently than the mother described below when they try to get services or section 8.

[loosechickens]

I think it's unfortunate that the majority of people receiving Section 8 housing behave just like you and me, are quiet, good neighbors, and not dysfunctional, only have a low income. Because none of us notice them, or even KNOW that they are renting under Section 8.

The problem is that the noisy, dysfunctional, inappropriate behavior ones are so noisy, dysfunctional and inappropriate that they get all the attention, and give Section 8 tenants a very bad name, which is honestly not deserved by most of them.

Back in the day when we were landlords, we had Section 8 tenants. A few were as described above, and were nightmares as tenants, but others, most others, never gave us any trouble, we were assured of receiving the rent, everybody was happy.

Probably always good to remember that the squeakiest wheels are the ones we notice, while we never notice those wheels that are just rolling along, doing their job of rolling, quietly and without problems.

Even in big housing projects, while there are certainly a bunch of dysfunctional, even criminal people, there are always large numbers of law abiding, quiet people, trying to raise kids in a very challenging atmosphere and keep them safe, living poor, but decent lives, in places where everyday life can be very difficult.

The problem is, we don't even notice the ones that aren't a problem, because they blend in and appear to be just like us. JMHO

[Stella]

I can think of one incident of what I would consider government intrusion in my town, although it didn't happen to me personally.

Several years ago the city got the bright idea to take land occupied by an industrial park and an independent hardware store by right of eminient domain The idea was to build an office park, condos and co-ops to increase tax revenues. These businesses, most of them locally owned, were forced to relocate after decades of providing jobs and tax revenue in the town. The city spent the money on the environmental clean up and services were put in and development was set to begin just as the housing crisis hit. They built two office buildings and one co-op building (not yet full)and absolutely nothing else. One office building is occupied, the other is empty. The developer sued the city for millions claiming some kind of breach of contract and the city is suing the developer.

I think it's extremely intrusive for a government entity to use eminent domain to take land from one private entity and sell it to another to increase tax revenue. I understand it for road building and things of that nature, but I think what happened in my town is an abuse of that law.

[iris lily]

I think it's unfortunate that the majority of people receiving Section 8 housing behave just like you and me, are quiet, good neighbors, and not dysfunctional, only have a low income. Because none of us notice them, or even KNOW that they are renting under Section 8.

The problem is that the noisy, dysfunctional, inappropriate behavior ones are so noisy, dysfunctional and inappropriate that they get all the attention, and give Section 8 tenants a very bad name, which is honestly not deserved by most of them.

Back in the day when we were landlords, we had Section 8 tenants. A few were as described above, and were nightmares as tenants, but others, most others, never gave us any trouble, we were assured of receiving the rent, everybody was happy.

Probably always good to remember that the squeakiest wheels are the ones we notice, while we never notice those wheels that are just rolling along, doing their job of rolling, quietly and without problems.

Even in big housing projects, while there are certainly a bunch of dysfunctional, even criminal people, there are always large numbers of law abiding, quiet people, trying to raise kids in a very challenging atmosphere and keep them safe, living poor, but decent lives, in places where everyday life can be very difficult.


DH was a Section 8 landlord when we first got married and that renter was ok. She was the typical single mom with 2 -3 kids going to school. But that didn't last long since we moved to another state and he jettisoned his real estate holdings. You couldn't pay me enough to be a landlord in this environment and in this economy. He learned to make certain there was at least one obvious thing that needed fixing (like a handrail that was not attached) so that the HUD inspector could have something obvious to cite. Made everyone happy.

[Xmac]

I keep hearing people complaining on how onerous the "government intrusion" is in the US which confuses me. I mean, yes I have a decent portion of my paycheck removed prior to its deposit for taxes,

You're income tax payments do not pay for any public services according to the government's own Grace commission. They go to pay off the public debt. That debt is owed to a non-governmental entity known as the Federal Reserve that creates money out of thin air and charges interest on it that can never be paid back. Read Modern Money Mechanics by the Chicago Federal Reserve. Also, I wouldn't be too sure about your money not being seized or disappearing, the people of Argentina thought the same thing and lost huge amounts of their hard earned savings. Besides, you really only have a digital account of unrealized debt instruments that only have value if they continue to be redeemable. That is a big IF. The national debt is 14 or 15 trillion and I repeat, will never ever be paid back. If every last dollar (in any form) was spent tomorrow to pay off every "public and "private" debt in the U.S., there would still be outstanding debt. When our creditors decide to pull the plug on loans, the dollar will crash.
The value of the dollar since the inception of the Fed has lost 99% of its value. Every time there is quantitative easing by the Fed your money's value is being diluted further, ergo, seemingly stolen from you. I say "seemingly" because they're actually doing everything by the book, we just happen to ignore and allow it. The government and banks themselves tells the public in its publications what it is doing, like the aforementioned Modern Money Mechanics and Grace Commission. There are others like the U.C.C., U.S. code, etc. Check out the video, Money As Debt. It's a real eye opener.

[mira]

I watched a film recently call Red Road that took place in Scotland that centered on the technical surveillance by police of citizens. Yes, it's drama, but WOW! I found it just creepy, not that I especially mind being watched, it's that this group thinks they can protect me by watching me, my street, my neighborhood. That seems extemely naive to me. I'd like to know more about demonstrated results of this surveillance system.
I suppose the notion of 'protection' through camera surveillance is a little nonsensical. Chances are that even if a surveillance officer sees someone 'in the act', it'll be too late by the time the police are called and arrive. It can help with assailant identification, sure. Even then, the quality of the images is often too low to actually be of any legal use!

[bae]

But, I may have a sheltered perspective...so what is intrusive that the government does to you or someone you know?


Overly-intrusive environmental protection laws that place the burden of proof on the accused.

A specific example. My county's "possible wetlands map" shows a small (~400 sq. ft.) "wetlands" on a piece of my property. The map is clearly in error, I live on the side of a mountain, there is about 2" of soil here, and it's not the correct soil type to even be considered wetlands, the plants aren't wetland plants, etc. This area doesn't remotely meet the technical definition of wetlands. It got placed on the map not from a site visit, but from low altitude photosurveys in combination with topo maps. The "wetlands" in question is a dark rock sticking *out* of the ground in fact, covered with a bit of forest duff. The fact that the "wetlands" is "contiguous to a significant forested area" takes it into the category of a "wetlands of high significance".

So, because some county guy flew over my property and took some photos, and typed an entry into the mapping database, if I cause *any* disturbance in the "wetlands" area, or in the 300 foot buffer zone around it, I am subjected to incredibly expensive permitting processes, wetlands delineations, remediation plans, and so on. To simply have the site properly identified and removed from the map would cost me about $9000, assuming they properly decided that a rock was not a wetlands. Until this is done, though, I can't so much as trim a tree or clear ladder fuels from the forest in the affected zone. If I engage in any of these activities, I will be fined heavily, and the underlying factual situation doesn't change my "guilt".

My driveway runs through the "wetland buffer zone". Every time I leave my property, I am breaking the law.

I could then go on about the "stream" the county map shows running through my living room, but that would be piling on...

[ApatheticNoMore]

I got really really screwed by taxation, to a degree that is hard to fathom. This is not just your run of the mill complaining about taxes though I do that (and complain about work, and complain about the weather, and complain about traffic, and complain about the line at the store and .... :)).

But no in all seriousness, THIS IS REAL. A real true crime pretty much. Some other financial figuring related to taxes brought it up today and it's like a kick in the gut and a sinking feeling in the stomach all over again, and a feeling of loss (the loss was purely financial but nonetheless). And I realized then I had repressed thoughts about this issue (since last April). Because I had to repress it, I was also unemployed and HAD to deal with THAT, I couldn't spend time thinking of how badly I got screwed all the time. I had to move on with life. But it still hurts, and causes paranoid feelings of distrust of everything if I think about it. The tax code is not fair (and it's not progressiveness I'm taking issue with or even capital gains or anything like that), it's not just.

None of this is to deny that I have been financially pretty fortunate in life overall. I know that, I know it well, counting one's blessings and so on. That's how I've dealt with it. It was some small tiny bit of fortunateness that led me into this snare in the first place, but the snare itself was entirely unjust. It could be worse, I do remind myself that the actual dollar amounts weren't astronomical (nor were they amounts I can save up quickly of course! they were significant just not astronomical)

Easy come, easy go, such is money .... sigh .............

[Stella]

ANM's post about taxes reminded me to post about the State of California and their ridiculous fraud just shy of a Nigerian e-mail scheme.

We moved out of CA in March of 2006. We filed our taxes, but we only had income for two months and it wasn't enough to owe or get anything back so we didn't think another thing of it. Suddenly in 2008 we were getting mail saying that we never filed our taxes in 2006 and that the government had decided that we owed $2000. We sent back their appeals form, which they again said they didn't get, and we got a letter telling us they were going to start garnishing our wages. I called and spent an hour and a half on hold. Eventually some cheery woman tells me that they send out those letters to all people who held professional licenses (DH had a security guard card from his early twenties) who don't make as much in a year as the average for their field. She cheerfully removed it, admitting that we didn't even have to file taxes with the amount of income we had made in CA that year and noting that we had moved out of state.

We were ticked. How many people just pay up because of the threat of the government garnishing their wages? Then this year, they sent another letter saying we hadn't filed our CA taxes for 2009 and again giving us a bill for the taxes. In 2009 we had lived in Minnesota for 3 years. We called again, spent another hour and a half on the phone explaining that we had moved to Minnesota. This person told us that we had to call another agency and have DH's guard card, which again, he hasn't used in a decade, deactivated. They transfered us to an agency that told us they had no idea what the person was talking about. We called the tax people back and the person who answered said they weren't going to transfer us to the agency or give us that number. Google it, they said and hung up. We called back again and were again transfered to a different agency, this one telling us that it wasn't possible to deactivate the guard card. So according to the tax people, we can expect to get this letter every year until the card expires even though the state of California has been informed several times that we do not live there and have not lived there since 2006.