Eco or Economy?

[puglogic]

I liked reading this article this morning, because it echoed some of the decisions we're having to make right now (husband and I) and I didn't feel so alone.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/13/garden/eco-meets-the-economy.html?_r=2

I wonder how others view this? How do you make the choice between what's right to do, and what you can afford to do?

[iris lily]

Many of the examples used in that article are not a real life dilemma. Come on--bamboo shirts? I don't care about people who think that is actually a problem, that they cannot afford a bamboo shirt.

If you need a shirt go to Goodwill.

This kind of article only serves to reinforce the false moral environment that greenies promote.

Live a simple life, live it in an old house, repair the house, buy stuff second hand, repair that stuff, don't drive much and Voila! you are living a green life.

If you let the judgmental greenies dictate your spending by their pious dictum, you (the generic "you") are in trouble indeed.

That said, I have friends who are political conservatives and who have outfitted their house with a lot of solar equipment that is damned expensive, and they don't think that it will actually pay, but they are crunchy conservatives who are interested in the challenge of self-sufficient living. I like that attitude. And of course being conservative, they have money. ha ha.

[redfox]

This kind of article only serves to reinforce the false moral environment that greenies promote...
If you let the judgmental greenies dictate your spending by their pious dictum, you (the generic "you") are in trouble indeed.

What, or who, are these judgmental greenies with pious dictums? And what is a false moral environment? Sounds nasty, and your words carry more than a touch of anger in them - am I hearing that correctly? The entire 'buy something to show you're eco...' is capitalism, not environmentalism. It's also called green-washing.

[HappyHiker]

Well, that makes sense to me...sure I want to do the right thing and live a small footprint but with the economy being what it is, many of us have to do a triage and answer Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs first. Shelter, food, water, then the extra non-essentials of survival...for each of us, those will differ. It's "hunker down" time for so many.

Of course, living frugally and simply is also green. How? One example is that if you cook from scratch and eat a lot of veggies/fruits, you're creating very little waste. My trash output is very tiny--and a lot of it, I compost...little packaging leads to little trash. No plastic bottles in my trash..I use re-fillable glass containers for many of our needs, including water and dry food storage.

[gwendolyn]

THIS is the new realization (and it's about time!)

Not long ago, Mr. Alter found himself in a grocery store, trying to decide between $10-a-pound organic bacon and a nonorganic brand that cost $5. In the end, he didn’t buy either one. “More and more people are doing that,” he said. “It’s like ‘Buy Nothing Day’ all year.”

I just saw a great documentary last night about the Highlander School, where, since the 1930s, people have gone to learn skills to fight their personal battles (worker rights, civil rights, enviro, health, etc, etc.) and by the time they were through, the awareness of interdependence led to a real lifestyle change, where they weren't just people complaining about one area of injustice, hoping for a quick victory, they were spiritually in tune with ALL the interconnectivity of the issues that stem from corporate capitalism, and they don't make false choices of "your interests vs my interests", and they know the "struggle" is a long, good one that will not be solved in their lifetimes, but is worth adapting their lives toward the solutions.

Eco v economy - FALSE CHOICE. The NYTimes - not exactly the bastion of greenness there, otherwise their advertisers would pull out - would put it this way. A better headline would have been: "Privileged Americans waking up that REAL concern for the environment (and a host of other issues) means abandoning the core ideal of capitalism: growth/consumption as "pursuit of happiness".

This article seems to point to some GOOD developments in terms of privileged middle-classers waking up. The fact of the matter is that in this country, debt is death to freedom -- one can not exercise all the choices available if you are in a position of being economically exploited. About time the middle class woke up to the plight of the inner city poor - who often CAN'T get whole foods, let alone organic, without riding 5 miles on a crowded city bus with groceries for a family of four.

Consuming material goods for the sake of consumption is neither green nor frugal, as we simple livers have been trying to tell folks like the Giaim catalog people (got on that mailing list back when it was Real Goods)... and yet I just see their catalogs become more and more filled with feel-good-about-yourself junk, with less and less actually useful (or affordable) REAL goods. And so, Giaim will soon go out of business, many thanks to the economy and their bad strategic marketing folks (are marketing folks ever Greenies?), and fewer trees will become catalogs.

Both frugality and "green" = ever-expanding awareness of the long-term impacts of mundane daily decisions. As such, there will always be well-intentioned, shall we say novices, Iris Lily?, (and their corporate enablers like Giaim) who initially want shortcuts to self-congratulations, but who, as their skills in awareness grow in terms of how to find and judge the REAL options, will realize that uber-green IS uber-frugal and vice versa.

[loosechickens]

Yeah, I've always HATED the way that "green" was getting taken over by flossy, greenwashing, overconsuming types of products. We own a bunch of Gaiam stock, kind of by accident (we were early stockholders in Real Goods, and once when the Real Goods founder was going through a divorce and needed to sell stock to raise money, we bought more Real Goods stock from him, and then when Gaiam bought them out, we ended up with Gaiam stock). So we get their catalogs, etc., and it just frosts me at how many of the things are just those kinds of "oh, I feel so good about myself now that I'm caring for the earth, even though I'm spending a hundred thousand dollars a year on stuff that I don't need" products.

So, it's good that those folks are feeling pinched a bit, which will help to rein in the greenwashing, and I always think it's good when people start to figure out how to do things for themselves, discover buying what they need secondhand, and generally begin to question all the consumption itself. Because even if it's "green" stuff, when it's more than you need, you could have done it or made it yourself, or found it secondhand and not wasted more resources, it's not a positive purchase.

Hopefully, we may see it shake out to more really useful green items, more ability in people to think long term about economic and environmental savings, etc., and will cause the "over consumers", both conventional and "green", to question how sustainable all that consumption is.

I'm hopeful.

[chrissieq]

I work with a woman who decided a few years ago to "go green". She was so proud of her new sneakers that had soles made from discarded tires - my question which was not answered was "Did you need new shoes?". I told her that I tried to arrange my errand schedule so I only had to drive once or twice a week to get them all done. She responded "I have a Prius. I don't have to worry about stuff like that." We were talking about Christmas and gift giving and I told her about how we limited the number of gifts we gave our kids and she said "What if my daughter got less than other kids? She'd feel bad." Oh my.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Ah yes Gaiam, that's a whole bizarre thing of it's own. So much junk in that catalog. I got it because I ordered a bath filter through them (filter out extra chlorine basically). The bath filter was fine and I've ordered replacement filters. But most of that catalog which I never wanted to receive, oh boy. I could see use in a few of their items (like bags to regularly take recyling in, ok that makes some sense I guess), but not most of it.

I honestly often think that for the majority waking up is just - "ooh I'm going to get the cheapest thing imaginable, let's see what the 99 cents store has, I don't care if it's made in China". "Organic food who needs it (I don't even know my food is GMO)". This is a step backward, not forward. But there is also a significant minority who are on a better path. It's not that one can't seek our reasonable deals or organic food, but I think the high end market is ultimately what sustains things like organic farmers (sorry, sad but true, the reduction of all Americans to poverty may not really be an entirely beneficial thing ....)

[Stella]

I can see the dilemma with the roof. A lot of those housing kinds of eco upgrades can be expensive. At the moment we are trying to focus on lower hanging fruit, like getting a better door that will keep out more cold (and stay shut for the love of Mike!) or hopefully, new, more energy efficient patio windows next year to replace the drafty 1960s ones we have now.

We focus on things we can do cheaply or for free and make more expensive choices in a few areas. For example, we can't afford a Prius, but we can do some of our errands on foot. Last week we went to the grocery store and to get an innertube for Cheyenne's bike on foot. Cheyenne will be learning to fix it herself this weekend because we think repair skills are important for our kids to learn.

We can't afford the green laundry detergents with the crazy amount of laundry we do, so we make our own. The laundry is largely comprised of secondhand stuff. I did a quick mental tally and everyone in the house is wearing at least one second-hand thing except DH, but the outfit he has on today is one of the few he owns that isn't.

We do buy some organic foods, including milk directly from a dairy. That is offset by making a lot of things from scratch. We still spend a very reasonable amount of money on groceries.

[redfox]

Re: Gaiam... We bought a Sunmar composting toilet from them, and were very unhappy about it's operational performance. After multiple calls to them & the manufacturer, Gaiam gave us half our $$ back. They offered that to us, to which I said yes! Their customer service has been really good. (I then cleaned the thing out & sold it for the other half of the $$ we spent.)

AND... I detest their catalogues; in fact all catalogues. Seriously, they are the biggest waste.

[Miss Cellane]

Even if the examples aren't the greatest, the article does have a point.

Three years ago, I needed to buy a new washer. The 26 year old one had reached a point where even my dedicated, determined repair man couldn't fix it any more.

On my budget, having just started working again after two years of unemployment, the energy-efficient, water-saving front loaders that I could afford were the bottom of the line ones. As I did my research, all I came up with were negative comments and very bad reviews.

I made my choice by weighing cost, energy efficiency, and value--the brand quality, approximately how long the machine might last, what kind of reviews it was getting on-line. I ended up with a standard top-loader.

The washer I bought allows me to select the size of the load of laundry I'm washing, so that I'm not wasting water. I mostly do cold washes. I wear most clothing at least twice to cut down on how much laundry I need to do. And the washer had a good Energy Star rating.

It was also on sale and came with free delivery and free removal of the old washer. Craigslist and the like weren't good options for me, because I can't physically move a washer and have no way to transport one.

An HE front loader might have saved me a lot of money in the long term. But short term, I didn't have the money to buy one. It would have taken a long time to save up the money and during that time, I'd be spending quite a bit at the laundromat.

It's not the washer I wanted--I really wanted to get a front loader. But it was the best, most informed purchase I could make at the time.

[iris lily]

What, or who, are these judgmental greenies with pious dictums? And what is a false moral environment? Sounds nasty, and your words carry more than a touch of anger in them - am I hearing that correctly? The entire 'buy something to show you're eco...' is capitalism, not environmentalism. It's also called green-washing.

Who is telling pug "what's right to do?" Who is making the woman pictured in that article "feel guilty?" You guys tell me.

Capitalism = good
Buying or living your life to meet someone else's expectations= not good

[iris lily]

I don't understand human beings' fascination with front loading washing machines. People. It 's a frickin' washing machine! I saw this in my neighborhood 10 - 12 years ago this fascination, from MEN! I didn't get it then and do not get it now. It is just strange.

Give me a Sears quality washing machine with cold water & water depth cycle and that's as green as I will get.

[Wildflower]

Who is telling pug "what's right to do?" Who is making the woman pictured in that article "feel guilty?" You guys tell me.

Capitalism = good
Buying or living your life to meet someone else's expectations= not good

:+1:

[Stella]

I don't understand human beings' fascination with front loading washing machines. People. It 's a frickin' washing machine! I saw this in my neighborhood 10 - 12 years ago this fascination, from MEN! I didn't get it then and do not get it now. It is just strange.

Give me a Sears quality washing machine with cold water & water depth cycle and that's as green as I will get.

LOL. Well for me the allure is the high capacity. They don't have an agitator so they hold more clothes and fewer loads of laundry would be lovely. Also, at 5ft 2 I frequently have to stand on my toes to get clothes out of the bottom of the washer. It makes me feel like I'm 6.

[redfox]

No one makes any one of us feel guilty, it's a completey self-induced state. And, the 'Eco or Economy' thing is a false dichotomy... it's advertising, and nothing else.

[puglogic]

No one is making me feel guilty about anything, and I don't care about the advertising aspect of this. I think I'm seeing this from a big picture view rather than the micro-view, picking the article apart. It seems very straightforward to me that we're all making these kinds of choices (well, many of us here on SLN are):

I want solar power for my home.
I can't "afford" solar power for my home, even with big tax credits.

I want to be able to do an energy audit and correct all of the issues that are raised by the auditor (who I know personally, and who is terrific).
I couldn't come up with $5000.00 to do that right now, regardless of the eventual payback.

I want good, safe, sustainably-raised protein sources, preferably local.
I need to look long and hard at our grocery bill and cut corners in other areas to be able to accomplish this. Stella, we make a lot from scratch too, for just this reason. But it still hard some months.

Miss Cellane wanted a washing machine that was more energy-efficient and used less water.
She had to compromise - with the "what" and the "how" - in order to match her ethics up with her budget.

I'm sure there's someone out there trying to guilt-trip me into products I don't need or want, but I've long since tuned out those voices so it's just not on my radar. But what I get from this article, elitist as it may be, is that we are all making choices on a daily basis between doing what WE INDIVIDUALLY FEEL is best -- for ourselves, for our community, for the environment -- and doing what we feel we can afford.

Organic vs. conventional, renewable/sustainable vs. not, local vs. outsourced, new vs. used. The choices are so many, and so personal, and some days I'm just brain-weary of trying to make 1) what's in my checking account, 2) what I really believe I need, and 3) my personal ethics about various purchases, all play nice together.

Welcome to the 21st century, I know LOL. No whining here. Just wondering how others work through these kinds of thought processes to come up with the best solution(s) for themselves.

[razz]

Maybe I am out of touch as well but I found the examples in the article not that far out of the mainstream simple thinking.

We had to choose between an asphalt roof and a steel roof and chose asphalt for a number of reasons but price came up.

We use vinegar, water and some dish detergent as our household cleaner with baking soda and elbow grease for the really dirty spots.

Moving closer to work, shopping at the thrift stores, cutting back on high end grocery shopping and organics in favour of local, home gardening and reduced menu sounds wise to me.

For consciousness raising, this was a good article.

[iris lily]

I think that each and every day we all choose between degrees of rightness. I was thinking about this recently, had an ethical challenge and I ended up doing something that was less than perfect but still toward the ideal.

Balance, compromise, reasonableness--that's what seems logical in my life, YMMV.

Speaking of roofs, the entirely correct choice in my neighborhood for 2rd Empire houses is a slate roof. Real slate is godawful expensive but it will last for another 100 years. If you are put off by $25,000 to $75,000 for a roof, don't buy one of those houses here. But there is a slate-like substance that is less expensive but is still pretty expensive. And then there are the asphalt fako crap that some are able to get by with but they should be flogged.

[Mrs-M]

Excellent article. I'm most speculative when it comes to the purchase of all things, and being average working class people (like we are), one has to carefully weigh the pros and cons when deciding on purchases (big or small). It's about balance and contentment in the end. Smart/wise thinking/planning prevails.