Become a Lessmeatarian?

[HKPassey]

I found this interesting blog post this evening, for people who want to eat more sustainably but don't find vegetarianism completely appealing:

http://silententry.wordpress.com/2009/06/01/foodbyte-6-even-eating-less-meat-is-a-miracle-so-become-a-lessmeatarian/

cow-hi

[redfox]

Mark Bittman says that he is vegan till 6 pm. I like that. He eats meat in moderation at some of his evening meals.

[Zoebird]

i'm paleo, and i eat meat once a day. i usually eat three times a day -- eggs plus veggies for breakfast; snack of fruit and nuts/seeds; dinner of meat plus veggies.

it's how pastoralism (traditional pastoralism anyway) works. cultivate some things, husband others, hunt and fish, forage -- eat everything that you can (organs, etc).

and we do what we can. we don't hunt, but will fish and forage. we grow herbs and microgreens and small veg. we don't husband any animals for food, but we'd probably do ok with 3-5 chickens in our space (if the township allowed -- i'm not sure what the rules are).

i really want to keep bees. that is my dream. :)

[Marianne]

The PB&J Campaign explains it a little further - http://www.pbjcampaign.org/how

For the past three years or so, we have had 'meatless Mondays' at our house. It gradually grew to two or three days without meat. Now that vegetarian DS#1 is here, we go 4 or 5 days without meat. I don't feel any better by not eating meat, but a lot of people say that they do. The biggest change has been in the wallet as our grocery bill is less.

Is Kansas City the largest meat eating group of people in the US? The comment in his blog almost kind of irritated me since I live in Kansas. But even though I can't think of any vegetarian restaurants around here, most offer some vegetarian dishes on their menu's. JMO

[pinkytoe]

Trying to do the same here. Meatless Mondays and slowly more evenings as well. Primarily cutting back the portion at each meal. If you do a stir-fry, just add much less meat, chicken, etc and more veggies, etc. It really does make a difference in the food budget.

[Anne Lee]

Daytime vegetarian here mostly too. Today's homemade soup has chicken stock in it so technically it's not strictly meatless.

My blood pressure has improved and it's not too hard to keep off the final 10 lbs which put me solidly in the middle of my healthy BMI range rather than towards the top.

[Bastelmutti]

Is Kansas City the largest meat eating group of people in the US? The comment in his blog almost kind of irritated me since I live in Kansas. But even though I can't think of any vegetarian restaurants around here, most offer some vegetarian dishes on their menu's. JMO

Just to make you feel better, Marianne - Are you familiar with The Onion?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/dozens-dead-in-chicagoarea-meatwave,253/

[Bastelmutti]

PS I would say we are Lessmeatarian. DD1 is mostly vegetarian, but eats fish. We eat lots of beans and eggs! Most of the time breakfast and lunch are meatless. Dinner is a mix, but since we pretty much have a Mexican-type bean dinner, a pasta dinner and a stirfry dinner each week, at least three dinners are usually meatless, too.

[San Onofre Guy]

I have cut my intake of meat to two or three meals per week. This is due to trying to become more healthy but also to help the environment. Yesterday was one of those meat days. I grilled swordfish but it was on 0.8 pounds for four people. Yes the serving size was much less than one would get when eating out but when we left the table after eating the fish, asparagus and garlic mashed potatos we were not stuffed but very satisfied.

I get an executive physical every other year. When I first received this benefit 8 years ago they told me I should weigh between 163 and 165. I was at that time 175 and thought that 165 was never in my sights. I subsequently rose to 185 my high weight due to brie and beer at 9:30 in front of the television. I am happy to say that as of this morning I am 163 3/4 pounds.

I feel great with less meat and weight

[puglogic]

I eat meat/fish perhaps 3-4 meals per week. We do eat eggs, cheese, etc., and get plenty of protein, but don't miss the day-in, day-out meat meat meat meat diet.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I wish I tolerated eggs better. Usually meatless before 6 as well. Breakfast is usually fruit and nuts (sometimes fruit is a banana). Ocassionally eggs but I couldn't eat those everyday. Ocassionally things like a bagel with cream cheese (really I try hard not to and will continue to, but they are free at work, so it's a hard fight. Why, why, do bagels have to be free at work instead of bananas or something?).

Lunch is usually a salad with cheese or some prepared veggies. Ocassionally I'll add some tuna or something to my salad (not meatless there). Sometimes I'll eat a bit of unsweeted yogurt with fruit midday (did this more when berries were in season).

[puglogic]

I am happy to say that as of this morning I am 163 3/4 pounds.

P.S> San ONofre Guy --- way to go! :)

[loosechickens]

I guess we are lessmeatarians, and have been for many years. We eat very little meat, some fish, some dairy, but not more than one or two meals with those ingredients in any given week, and when we do eat meat, etc., it's more as a condiment. One organic chicken breast may make two meals for two people, easily, for example.

we've eaten like this for years, although since reading the China Study, we've cut back ever more on dairy and eggs, and consumer very little dairy now. And with the money we save on foregoing those purchases, we can easily accomodate organic fruits and veggies in our grocery budget.

I can't say that is why, but the one of us who is almost 62 has completely normal blood pressure, blood sugar, etc., and takes no medications at all, and I, at almost 70, take only 5 mg. of Lisinopril for blood pressure, nothing else, and since I've lost a bit of weight over this past summer swimming a LOT, I'm just about ready to go without it at all, as my blood pressure is almost too low at this point. When I had my eyes examined recently, the eye doctor commented that I had "exceptionally healthy eyes".

When I look around me at friends and relatives with more "conventional" diets, I see lots of diabetics, universal use of blood pressure meds, cholesterol problems, and other things. So I think we must be doing something right. Or, then again, since one can do everything right and still get ill, maybe we also have had a big measure of good luck.

Either way, we plan to keep on keeping on, and over the years, as we develop more things we like to eat that are meatless and dairyless, we've become closer to vegan in actuality, even if that hasn't been our total intent.

I know the China Study advocates NO meat, dairy or eggs, but I can't help but think that a sprinkle of parmesan cheese on my vegetarian pasta, or the occasional egg in something is going to completely derail my health. Maybe once a year or so, I've even ingested a really nice filet mignon, and don't expect to keel over with a coronary because of it.

[Mrs-M]

Typically, in our home, meat is on the menu (at least) 5-6 days out of the week, as far as time of day when meat is served, suppertime still remains the time of day when it comes to that.

Thanks for posting this HKPassey.

[Rosemary]

We do have some form of poultry (most common by far) or fish or meat most days for dinner but it is usually a small quantity per person. Healthwise and environment-wise, I think poultry is a better choice than dairy products, anyway. We also eat a lot of vegan meals, though I've never kept track during any given week of the percentage.

[Marianne]

Just to make you feel better, Marianne - Are you familiar with The Onion?
http://www.theonion.com/articles/dozens-dead-in-chicagoarea-meatwave,253/

That was hilarious!!

[Suzanne]

I seek out grassfed meats from local suppliers whenever possible. An excellent way to reduce environmental costs as well as improve health!

[JaneV2.0]

Grazing animals--on natural grasslands, anyway--do far less damage than soy or corn crops. I eat meatless meals--if a cup of yogurt with cream, for example, can be considered a meal, but if pressed I'd consider myself a moremeatarian. My vegetarian years were a big mistake.

[Jemima]

I've gradually become almost vegetarian over the past three or so years, and confine my meat-eating to fish and poultry. I doubt that I eat more than a pound of meat in a week, if that much. I have eggs (from certified humanely raised and free-range chickens) for breakfast nearly every day. Lots of my vegetarian recipes involve cheese. I'll probably never go vegan as I think it's unhealthy to not ever eat meat and completely cut out all animal products.

For me this has turned out to be a healthy way to eat. I feel better, have no trouble maintaining a healthy weight, and it certainly gives the budget a boost. The next step will be buying only humanely raised organic chicken and using more salmon and less tuna because of the mercury factor.

[Wildflower]

I eat very little meat and if it wasn't for DH who LOVES meat, I would probably be a vegetarian.

[Amaranth]

Loosechickens, in the groups they studied for the China study, even the healthiest groups had some animal protein. However it made up a very small part of the diet.

Some reading that I have found helpful by doctors doing related research is the look at people in the 70-110 age range in Okinawa. The Willcox brothers have a couple of books with info and recipes. The food is focused around vegetables, whole grains, fruits, some fish and dairy, and daily tea. Poultry, eggs, meat, and sweets are eaten sparingly if at all.

The lifestyle consists of daily gardening, local food, walking as the usual form of transportation, and an evening out dancing once a week.

There’s also some inspiring info and pictures about the food and lifestyle in one of the chapters of the Hungry Planet book.

[loosechickens]

That's interesting, Amaranth....both that even the groups they studied in The China Study did eat small amounts of animal protein, and also about the Okinawans, which describes almost perfectly how we eat. Well, we don't go out dancing every week, but other stuff sounds much like both of us.

So far, we enjoy excellent health. Of course, no one can know what may blindside them at any time, but at least in the "lifestyle" diseases where you have a great deal of control through diet and exercise, no signs of trouble.

But this isn't a recent change in eating habits.....it's pretty much how we've eaten for 35 years, and although it's never too late to make improvements, I think the diet and exercise route has its best results over time and as prevention as opposed to cure. Which doesn't mean that improvement in health may be seen even with late development of good habits, but ideally those habits would start in childhood or even early, prenatally, and be maintained for a lifetime. (I always enjoy thinking about "perfect worlds", hahahaha)

[frugalone]

I'm a vegetarian, but we do eat fish and eggs.

I made the transition about 10 years ago, from part-time omnivore, by eating "analog" foods such as Gimme Lean ground "beef," "lunchmeat" and vegetarian "cheese." Somehow by starting with fake meats, it was easier to cut out real meat. Occasionally, I did still eat real meat. But then I saw "Fast Food Nation" and that was it for me. I really don't think I could eat meat again...unless something dire happened and there was nothing else to eat on the planet.

[Suzanne]

The problem with The China Study is that now that a new generation of statisticians is examining the raw data of the study, they're finding glaring disconnects between Campbell's conclusions and his very own data! Vegan Outreach published a warning against taking the China Study for gospel, given these discrepancies. http://www.veganoutreach.org/articles/healthargument.html. Scroll down to get to The China Study review. On the way down, check the information on health and the vegetarian argument. I strongly believe that each individual has his/her specific nutritional requirements and biochemistry, and that while some thrive on any given diet, some do not - and those who fail on that diet are not evil, uncommitted, or lazy; they simply don't produce the right enzymes or other digestive factors.

Campbell's own rat experiments showed that a plant-based diet with complete protein, i.e. adequate amounts of all essential amino acids, had the same effect on cancerous growths as casein, yet he doesn't publicize this, to my knowledge. Isolated casein, like any artificially isolated protein fraction, could have bad effects simply because of the processes used to isolate it; whole milk does not have the same hazards, and full-fat whole milk appears to be protective against prostate cancer while 0% milk appears to encourage development of prostate cancer. Campbell made the whopping error in his analysis of mistaking correlation for causation. I'm in my first introductory statistics class at present, and both my textbook and lecturer are scathing on this point. It's like saying that "Ice cream sales rose in July. Hot chocolate sales went down in July. This happens every July. Icecream sellers steal sales from hot chocolate vendors."

Campbell's rat experiments examined: http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/cmasterjohn/2010/09/22/the-curious-case-of-campbells-rats-does-protein-deficiency-prevent-cancer/.

For those interested in following a truly user-friendly analysis of Campbell's data:
http://rawfoodsos.com/2010/08/06/final-china-study-response-html/

[JaneV2.0]

Yes, Denise Minger (one of my personal heroes) has made hash of the Campbell's parsing of the China data. Bless her heart, you can't beat smart and courageous. I understand she has a book in the works.

[Rogar]

Wikipedia has a pretty decent summary of the various studies under "vegetarianism" and the validity of their conclusions. I've done my share of reading on the issues, including the Pollen books and a few John Robbins books, which frequently reference the China Study. It almost seems like the perfect diet is a moving target as we learn more. It is very hard to find a good test and control group where meat eaters vs. vegetarians are the only variables. To me the most logical diet includes very limited animal fats, few refined carbohydrates (my weakness) and plenty of vegetables. I think Pollen has it nailed in his book, Food Rules, or in seven words, "Eat food, not too much, mostly plants"

The impact of a meat based diet on the climate and environment are at least as significant as the health issues. Per the wiki article, "the livestock sector emerges as one of the top two or three most significant contributors to the most serious environmental problems, at every scale from local to global." Also, I honestly have trouble understanding how an informed person who has watched or read about the current state of factory farming of animals can contiue to eat meat produced this way with a clear concious. It just isn't right. Not to mention the disease issues of mass meat processing. What ever money I save from eating very little meat is used to buy what I at least hope are from animals raised in ethical farming practices.

[Suzanne]

I'm with you on most stuff, Rogar.

I have to point out a big hole in John Robbins' thinking - he equated ice-cream eating with heart attacks because of the dairy content. He completely overlooked the fact that most icecream is mostly sugar; he also overlooked the artificial flavorants and colorants, the emulsifiers, and a few other such ingredients...I've already mentioned the problems with The China Study. Robbins also overlooks the influence of individual biochemistry. Vegans always bring up that all tigers have the same biochemistry - apparently they have never actually looked at humans and noted the incredible diversity! There are 3 distinct enterotypes in humans, 3 distinct colon morphologies, and holistic clinicians consistently report identifying 3 basic nutritional types in their patients; some people thrive as vegans, some on carbohydrate-rich diets, and some as protein-fat eaters.

Weston Price's world-tour in the early 20th century looked at people who were eating traditional diets and compared them with people of the same genetic stock who were eating "civilized" diets high in refined carbohydrates, especially white flour and tea. Without exception, he found that the people not eating industrial foods were far healthier than their civilized kin. This held true whether the group was living on goat cheese and milk, with a little bread; fish and seals, with whatever plant material could be sourced; potatoes, herrings, and cow milk; cereals and fish. Price has been smeared by vegan groups as "just a dentist." Apparently none of them have ever read his fat, rather boring tome "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" or they would have noted his serious research capabilities and the fact that he carried out good experiments. Price is also being vindicated with each new study that comes out linking oral disease with heart disease, or cancer.

Here's a link to a fascinating study that suggests that individual genetic makeup may indeed be the missing factor in all the big diet studies: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/11/24/2517520/can-your-genes-help-create-designer.html

Regarding meat-based diet and effect on environment: the kind of meat is the key factor here. Pasture-fed to finish animals have minimal environmental effects; they may, as individuals, burp/fart more than individual CAFO beasts, but their concentration is so much lower that their methane emissions as a population are still only a fraction of the CAFO lot. Mixed farms, where animals are integrated into the farming operations, produce more total food at lower environmental costs than cropping systems lacking animals. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Oct07/diets.ag.footprint.sl.html
http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/Y0501E/y0501e03.htm
The SALT system in the Philippines can produce very large amounts of food off small amounts of land by integrating livestock and crops. http://www.fao.org/ag/AGP/AGPC/doc/Publicat/Gutt-shel/x5556e0y.htm

For a very well-researched and written investigation into the effects of meat on the environment, I strongly recommend Simon Fairlie's Meat: A Benign Extravagance. Fairlie checked the math of common misconceptions about meat production, and found horrible errors. Note that Fairlie is very strongly in favor of reducing meat consumption globally, and his argument is based on good sound logic. http://letthemeatmeat.com/post/1094341788/interview-with-a-sustainable-food-advocate-simon

I'm fully with you on the brutality of CAFO systems, and have chosen to eat less animal-source food; the far higher nutritional quality of ethically produced foods makes it perfectly possible to get more actual nutrients from fewer ounces of item. Unfortunately some of my choices mean buying foreign rather than local foods, which negatively impacts my food mile ethic!

[Greg44]

I've been a vegetarian since 2000. Have "knowingly" eaten meat three times since that date. I think people need to eat what works for them and their bodies.

I do have trouble with people who question my vegetarianism and who are overweight, have diebeties, high blood pressure, don't exercise etc.

I have gone mostly vegan* since the first of September. And FOR ME it has been a blessing. I am shedding extra weight, my blood pressure is down. I have much more energy, have found my muscle recovery following my morning runs is so much faster, etc.

*I don't worry if the last ingredient in my canned chili says "skim milk powder", etc.

I try to keep the omnivores in my family happy, by making sure they have meat if I am fixing the meal.

I am very careful not to be a holier than thou vegan. Though I can see how when you feel better - you want to share the news. If someone asks about my weight loss or diet, I simply say "I'm trying to follow a low fat plant based diet" and leave it that unless they inquire more about it.

[catherine]

I've been a vegetarian since 2000. Have "knowingly" eaten meat three times since that date. I think people need to eat what works for them and their bodies.

I do have trouble with people who question my vegetarianism and who are overweight, have diebeties, high blood pressure, don't exercise etc.

I have gone mostly vegan* since the first of September. And FOR ME it has been a blessing. I am shedding extra weight, my blood pressure is down. I have much more energy, have found my muscle recovery following my morning runs is so much faster, etc.

*I don't worry if the last ingredient in my canned chili says "skim milk powder", etc.

I try to keep the omnivores in my family happy, by making sure they have meat if I am fixing the meal.

I am very careful not to be a holier than thou vegan. Though I can see how when you feel better - you want to share the news. If someone asks about my weight loss or diet, I simply say "I'm trying to follow a low fat plant based diet" and leave it that unless they inquire more about it.

Thanks for sharing that, Greg. Well said.

[HKPassey]

What a great discussion!

One reason I found this interesting was because lessmeatarian would probably be as close as I could come to being vegetarian. I have multiple food allergies that prevent me from eating foods such as soy in any significant amount and many grains (oats, barley, rye, amaranth, teff), and severely limit the amount of eggs and dairy I can consume. Also many nuts, fruits and vegetables make me ill, and something "safe" can suddenly become the opposite, sometimes permanently, sometimes for a few months or years (apples, watermelon, kiwi, plums, oranges). The only foods that have consistently been safe and remained that way are chicken, beef and pork, go figure. I was eating more fish a few years ago, until everything got disrupted with my mother's final illness followed by employment (then unemployment) chaos. I need to get back to working in more fish and veggies, but I have to rotate foods pretty carefully to prevent intolerances. Living with my son, who doesn't eat either, has put a bit more challenge into that as well. I'm slowly getting my exercise routines back, though, despite my arthritis, and I'm trying to get away from the "depression eating" self-medication route. I'm sure cutting sugar back to a bare minimum would help the arthritis (I've done it before), I just don't seem to be ready to do that yet.

Sometimes the simplest things can get so dang complicated!

cow-hi

[lhamo]

We received this query in the admin box, and thought it would not be a problem to pass it along, in case anyone wants to respond directly:

"I am writing from ABC News. I was interested to read a thread from people discussing the "lessmeatarianism" movement. (I.e. eating less meat for health and environmental reasons.) I would be very interested in trying to get a message to some of these people expressing our interest in talking to someone who is currently trying to eat less meat. I can best be reached at my email address: ely.e.brown@abc.com. Thank you very much and I look forward to hearing from you."

Please respond to Mr. Brown directly if you are interested in talking with ABC News.

lhamo