View Full Version : Does Iraq Matter?
Having some mixed emotions about the pull out. Overall I'm really glad we're getting out because I don't think we should have been there in the first place and I wish we would do the same with Afghanistan. I'm ecstatic for the individual soldiers coming home and for their families.
The other side of the coin is that I just don't see any outcome that doesn't have Iran basically moving in as we move out with Shi'a law being implemented in place of 'democracy'. Saddam Hussein was an enemy of Iran. We took care of him and the Sunnis' hold on power diminished after that. I'm not sure we could have scripted a better outcome for Iran. On top of that, it just doesn't seem that Nuri al-Maliki's government is strong enough to stand up to Iranian pressure. At this point I'm mostly concerned that Iraq and Iran together hold 19 or 20% of the global oil reserves and with what effect that alliance could have on global markets.
What do you guys think, does it matter if Iraq sinks or swims?
Ultimately, it is their decision. The religious differences will make a huge impact on whatever they implement in governance but they are also very smart people. Western powers seem to believe that the mideast cannot think for itself but they can and will find what works whether dictatorship or not. Israel will need to work something out but the gloval world is undergoing a huge shift economically that will distort any present view.
Can somebody give me a 60-second explanation of what it is that we accomplished over there, at such great cost?
My take on it is that we did Iran's dirty work by getting rid of Saddam opening the door for Shi'a control in Iraq. The two countries together hold 20% of the global oil reserves (Saudi Arabia has 25%) which gives them access to incredible wealth. That means they can afford to buy anything including nuclear technology, and probably will. The news this morning had a story about nuclear material in Russia supposedly bound for Iran. If Iran's nuclear development continues its almost a given that at some point Israel will go on offense and take out those facilities. With the current foreign policy the US will have little choice but to back Israel. At that point the already strained relations between the US and Pakistan will probably completely break down. Pakistan is the real wild card because they have the second largest Shi'a population (behind Iran). They are a minority in that country, but very active and very fundamental. And Pakistan already has nukes. I wouldn't want to be a US soldier stationed in Afghanistan or anyone living in Israel if this goes down. But I'm off on a tangent of sorts. The answer to your question, IMO, is....
Nothing.
We had no business going into Iraq in the first place. I am glad we are moving troops out. But we are still pouring money into it with the huge State Department contingent and hordes of "independent contractors".
In answer to bae's question, we accomplished the following: Nothing but a lot of broken families, broken bodies, and a very near bankrupt treasury. I sincerely doubt if we have even learned anything because the next time the Ministry of Perpetual Warfare decides that they need a bigger budget, they will raise the flag, sound the bugle, and we'll go patriotically marching off into the next quagmire.
Ack! There goes my blood pressure. I must learn to stay away from bae's questions...
I think the official answer is that we removed a brutal and oppressive dictatorship and gave the citizens of Iraq a chance to determine their own future through democratic elections. And also by training and arming Iraqi security forces to protect the citizens and government against armed and trained minority radical groups. In the process we maybe eliminated a few terrorist training camps and a couple of higher ranking Al Qaeda officials.
I personally think we had no business setting even one foot in Iraq and were duped by dishonest and ambitious politicians and military. I don't know if we will know for sure if the world or middle east will be a better or worse place without Sadaam until the future unfolds, but my heart goes out to the families of sons and daughters lost in a war that never should have been.
gimmethesimplelife
12-18-11, 9:43pm
Can somebody give me a 60-second explanation of what it is that we accomplished over there, at such great cost?My honest opinion? Absolutely nothing positive or constructive! Rob
Can somebody give me a 60-second explanation of what it is that we accomplished over there, at such great cost?
We aided and abetted in the removal of a very cruel and ruthless dictator. I can't truly see any other point of honor to this.
Was it worth the billions and billions of dollars and the many thousands of lives?
In my opinion, no. There are dozens of other Bad People running nations worldwide. We simply have to give up the mantle of World Hero Who Will Make Everything Okay For Everybody.
The things we could have done with that money here in our own country....it makes me sick inside.
ApatheticNoMore
12-21-11, 3:59pm
We simply have to give up the mantle of World Hero Who Will Make Everything Okay For Everybody.
I don't know that I'd frame it so positively. War everywhere in some form all the time brought to you by the U.S. government. I mean there are literally countries I didn't even know we were at war with, heck I hardly even know existed that apparently we are at war with: so we sent 100 troups to Uganda. Uganda? I mean what the heck?
I don't know that I'd frame it so positively. War everywhere in some form all the time brought to you by the U.S. government. I mean there are literally countries I didn't even know we were at war with, heck I hardly even know existed that apparently we are at war with: so we sent 100 troups to Uganda. Uganda? I mean what the heck?
That's a prime example of what I mean. No doubt in the world that the LRA does horrific, horrific things: http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/05/20/dr-congo-new-round-lra-killing-campaign But how much longer can we afford to run around the globe fighting evil like this? It's EVERYWHERE. We cannot stop it no matter how many troops we deploy and no matter how much money we spend. So when do we stop, and save ourselves?
The bombings in Baghdad this morning seem to have the stamp of Sunni insurgents, maybe al Qaeda (no one has claimed responsibility yet). It didn't take long after our pull out for things to start heating up in Iraq.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-11, 2:07pm
It just convinces me more how futile the whole Iraqi intervention was really. Even under a brutal murderous dictator (Hussein) and really that is not a society you want to live in, you still didn't have outright chaos breaking out everwhere, bombings right and left, and just that scale of death and destruction. Iraq better off? Doesn't look like it.
ApatheticNoMore
12-22-11, 2:13pm
The things we could have done with that money here in our own country....it makes me sick inside.
"The bombs in Vietnam explode at home; they destroy the hopes and possibilities for a decent America."
Martin Luther King Jr.
substitute Vietnam for Iraq, Afghanistan, anyone the U.S. military is drone bombing. Truer words were never spoken.
It just convinces me more how futile the whole Iraqi intervention was really. Even under a brutal murderous dictator (Hussein) and really that is not a society you want to live in, you still didn't have outright chaos breaking out everwhere, bombings right and left, and just that scale of death and destruction. Iraq better off? Doesn't look like it.
Not to defend what I think was a misguided policy, but I think they were still worse off under Saddam.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq
"Secret police, torture, murders, rape, abductions, deportations, forced disappearances, assassinations, chemical weapons, and the destruction of wetlands (more specifically, the destruction of the food sources of rival groups) were some of the methods Saddam Hussein used to maintain control.[original research?] The total number of deaths related to torture and murder during this period are unknown, as are the reports of human rights violations. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International issued regular reports of widespread imprisonment and torture."
Its purely academic now, the Iraqis kicked us out. The post-Saddam (Shi'a) leadership wanted us gone and now we are. Like everyone else here, I'm glad we're out. That doesn't mean we shouldn't pay very close attention to what's going on there. There are very volatile situations with Iraq, Iran, Pakistan and Israel that could easily draw us into another war in that part of the world.
Yes, we got rid of Saddam, but now we'll have a much strengthened Iran to deal with. Wait until they get the nuke program up and running. And no, it won't be Iran setting off nukes. They are smart enough to know that if they did, they would be obliterated by Israel. I foresee suitcase bombs going to groups like Hamas. After a few of these are set off, I think there will be a worldwide panic. I also think that Russia is following their current course because they know that they will regain hegemony over Europe as other European countries will go to them for protection as soon as there is trouble.
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