View Full Version : City Mouse, Country Mouse
Wasn't sure which forum to post this, but here goes.
Two years ago I moved from a big city urban environment in a temperate climate to a rural island community in a chilly climate. I had thought that rural life would definitely be much less expensive than city life, but actually, it's a lot closer call than I would have thought. Some of this is no doubt related to my personal experiences in both places, but here are some of my observations:
Less expensive aspects of urban, warmer environment:
1. Heating costs not even ON my budget. Now, third largest item (after mortgage and taxes). In the same vein, no costs for winter clothes, boots, etc.
2. Healthy produce ridiculously more abundant, available year round, and much cheaper.
3. Huge choice of free items available in the city. Very active "freecycle" web community. People frequently moving around and giving things away. A huge population so a LOT of free stuff to be had.
4. Tons of wealthy people around (comparatively speaking), so Goodwill was outrageously great! It was like a vintage clothing shop and had numerous outlets nearby. New location barely any choice and much more just serviceable warm things. They even have new things, but very inexpensive (like socks). Only one location nearby as far as I know. Not considered cool to go there at all. Luckily, we "stocked up" at the old Goodwill(s) before moving!
5. Craiglist was so much better because of the much larger population using it. Especially better for buying and selling things. Also, TONS more job listings, child care listings, etc. Barely useful in the new location.
6. Exercising outside a viable year-round option. No need to join a gym or pay for indoor exercise.
Less expensive aspects of island, colder environment:
1. Less emphasis on outfits and gadgets. Wardrobe is simpler. People wear sweaters, the same ones from last year, with the same jeans or corduroys. Kids don't get all duded up for school in multi-hundred dollar outfits (at least at the elementary level -- we'll see what happens in middle school and beyond, which are on the mainland. But, this was already happening in PRESCHOOL in the city!!) Little kids don't all have computers, TVs, ipads, new skis every year, etc.
2. Virtually no advertising anywhere on the island. No billboards.
3. Retail opportunities extremely limited. Difficult to spend money so long as you stay on the island! (On the other hand, difficult NOT to spend money in grocery store on the island, which has higher prices than the mainland).
4. Less folks going on crazy expensive vacations all the time or having two homes.
5. Entertaining is less extravagant. Potlucks are in!
6. In the summer, the beach provides endless entertainment every day.
My experience have been the same as yours. I "prefer" small city life over country life and found the ability to walk, bike, use public transit such a cost saver compared to the need to have a vehicle and drive alot out inb the country. Same with utilities. Even a small apt or house in a cold weather place (I've lived in both New England and Alaska) was less on utilities then a big spread in a warmer area (Southern Calif). I also like city living and if you live in a small city that has more down to earth values (lplaces in Wash., Ore., NorCal, New England outside of Boston, etc..) you'll see the same simple living values many country folks have in terms of dress, gadgets, and NOT keeping up with te Jones. Also living in a small resort town can be nice. You have many of the big city things, is compact and easy to live right in town, there but it slows down alot after the season and the locals are very down to earth. I lived at a ski resort town in Cal and it had a lot of big city things but on a smakll scale with very simple living locals.
I lived on Lopez island for nearly 20 years, and am now in Seattle. Here in the city, I drive less, and basics are much less expensive. When I go back to the island, it is amazing how much people are in their cars! The cost of living in high in the PNW; on the island it was possible to get along for very cheap, but it was a particularly parsimonious lifestyle.
I miss the island because of the close community I had, but I really like Seattle for the amazing diversity of, well, everything. My neighborhood is quite multi-racial, and I am loving living and working with people from different cultural backgrounds.
I also hated the underemployment I always expericed in the islands. It's a lovely place if one is independently wealthy, but trying to make ends meet on a lower wage working salary was hard. I frequently held 2-3 jobs, some including ferry trips to other islands, and I never had a glimmer of even being able to own a home. I was on the founding board of the Lopez Community Land Trust to remedy this, and had my first home there.
I chose to move to the city to go to grad school. It was a really good decision. I love visiting my island home, but cannot imagine moving back there.
My experience have been the same as yours. I "prefer" small city life over country life and found the ability to walk, bike, use public transit such a cost saver compared to the need to have a vehicle and drive a lot out inb the country. Same with utilities.
Starting to think I'd like life in a smaller city. I've tired of the suburbs, have had my one-lifetime fill of a very large city and don't think I want to live in a rural area. My wife is very much an urban/suburban person; a small city would take some convincing.
I like the 50k-100k small cities. I have lived in 4 cities in that size range. Seems like they have everything I need. Not too big, not too small, just right.
I fall under the 50/50 category. Part of me would gladly pay a little extra to be removed from, and away from people, while a part of me happily embraces being in the city limits of a small community where everything is just minutes away and at my disposal. Finding a happy balance (I think) is what it's all about. Being able to contently choose one over the other and accepting any faults or weaknesses associated with such living.
I've lived in enormous cities (London, Paris), urban sprawl (Dublin, Boca Raton), a rural desert town in Nevada, and am now in a 50,000-population town in Israel. I grew up in Ann Arbor, MI, that then had a population of about 125,000 or so. By far, I now know I like small cities the best. They have enough of everything, but not so much that it's overwhelming. Also, the "enough" part means you don't have to spend much time or money leaving the place to get what you really want. Nahariya, where I now live, is an extremely walkable town and has excellent public transportation. We've been here almost two weeks and are very much enjoying being car-free. We don't want the hassle, the cost, or the responsibility of a car anymore.
Living in the rural Nevada town was quite an experience that I won't forget, but I wouldn't want to repeat it anytime soon. People did help each other out a LOT, which was great to see. Since there was nothing to do (except gamble, drink, do drugs or go to brothels--I do none of these!), there wasn't much to spend your money on. No one gave two craps about fashion, and unless you got expensive toys (ATV's, etc.) or high-maintenance animals (horses), it was pretty easy to live a frugal and simple lifestyle.
However, some of the practices associated with simple living, eco-friendliness and self-sufficiency actually weren't easy or cheap. Using wood as a heating source wasn't frugal in the desert. Keeping chickens safe from coyotes involved elaborate protective hardware, and coops and feed cost money. Solar systems were, ironically, very expensive and out of reach for most of the working poor, like I was. If you wanted to recycle your paper, glass and bottles, you needed to drive to Wal-Mart to do it. If you had more complicated items to recycle (cellphones, computers, batteries), you needed to drive 60 miles to Vegas.
I don't know what the "perfect" answer is for everyone, because people are so different. But one learns by doing, and I think I've self-identified as a true "small city mouse."
University towns of 50,000 are nice. I've lived in 3 of them.
Now I live in a real city and you can't pry me out of here, but that said, it's not a huge city and it is inexpensive. Hence lots of poor people live here and hence, lots of poverty related crime.
University towns of 50,000 are nice. I've lived in 3 of them.
Now I live in a real city and you can't pry me out of here, but that said, it's not a huge city and it is inexpensive. Hence lots of poor people live here and hence, lots of poverty related crime.
If you're willng, Iris Lily, what city do you live in? I am considering an escape from Seattle... and considering all options! Though DH is not quite there yet... but research cannot rt, and my job is totally portable.
I live in Minneapolis and I love it. I love my neighborhood in particular. The cold is the biggest negative I can think of. Weather is serious business here.
Some of the positives of my 'hood:
Transportation- I live in a pretty centralized area. I can be in either downtown Mpls or St Paul in 15 minutes or so by car. I am on a bus line too. My neighborhood is quite walkable. I can get most of what I need on foot.
Practical frugal culture- Thrift store shopping is common. People aren't too hung up on clothes or cars and stuff like that. Libraries are well loved.
Lots of free stuff to do- I can't even count all of the free/cheap events there are to do in the Cities at any given time. In my own neighborhood we have two shared swimming pools, shared formal gardens, tennis courts, basketball and volleyball courts, horseshoe pits, a playground, a big sandbox, a large regional park on a lake with canoeing and fishing piers, picnic areas, an amphitheater with free concerts, free naturalist events and some free art events and walking/biking paths. There's also a beach within walking distance. We have several other parks nearby with various other facilities like splash pads, ice skating rinks and baseball diamonds.
Community- My neighborhood is a very community oriented place. We've got book clubs, cooking clubs, potlucks and other neighborhood events. We get together with neighbors for card games and movie nights. It's fabulous.
Freebies- As you stated above, we've got freecycle and craigslist plus the culture in my neck of the woods is big on sharing things and garage sales. I came home from my big trip and discovered a new-to-me high chair my neighbor (who was taking care of my cat and had a key) had delivered to me. She knew that I needed one and her brother was getting rid of it. We have people who get big boxes of produce from farmers, like a big box of sweet corn, and share it. A bunch of us do some canning in the summer and share. I'll make jam, for example, and trade with someone who made salsa.
Relatively good employment opportunities- Unemployment is lower than the national average here and incomes are decent.
We also have lots of great cultural stuff, from ethnic and independent restaurants to a thriving arts community, theater, etc. that I think make life much more interesting.
Overall I don't mind the cold in exchange for what I get in return. My house in particular, being a townhome built partially into a hill, has two heated homes on either side for insulation and the earth for insulation on the bottom two levels of my house. Our energy bill here isn't much more than it was when we lived in SoCal.
I've lived my entire adult life in two large cities, NYC and across the Hudson in Jersey City for 18 years, and now San Francisco for 3. For many of the already mentioned reasons I love living in a large city. Great transit, great libraries, abundant entertainment options (some cheap like SF Symphony open rehearsals/some not), abundant reasonably priced healthy food, etc, are all big pluses in my mind when picking a place to live. Not to mention that SO and I both have careers tied to big cities, although mine could at least potentially involve telecommuting part of the time. The one major downside for us is cost of housing. We currently pay a lot of money in rent. However, in our careers our salaries are much much higher living here then in a smaller city, so we can justify it. But it's unlikely that we'll ever buy a home here. MOre likely is that we'll keep renting and keep saving up our money and only buy a home once we retire. Someplace else. Probably a small city that has many of the amenities we like but much less expensive real estate.
iris lily
1-10-12, 11:57pm
If you're willng, Iris Lily, what city do you live in? I am considering an escape from Seattle... and considering all options! Though DH is not quite there yet... but research cannot rt, and my job is totally portable.
I live in St. Louis
I like the 50k-100k small cities. I have lived in 4 cities in that size range. Seems like they have everything I need. Not too big, not too small, just right.
This is about the size I like also, as long as it isn't part of a sprawling city suburb where you can't tell where one city ends and another begins. The town I recently moved from was great (but way too hot and dry for me) with a pop of about 100K, great old time main street, great parks, neat old houses, some newer shopping areas with one mall, all the city stuff but on a smaller scale. It's also surrounded by vineyards and wineries, horse ranches and avacodo orchards, within the city limits, and open country and nat. forest and wilderness areas just outside of the city that go for miles. Unfortunately, as is common here in SoCal during the last 10 years, there was a mega housing boom of newly built MacMansion master planned communities that have taken over many of the surrounding areas and made it less isolated. It's still a neat place to live, but those sprawling MacMansion-villes, along with new manufacturing areas, have really made it less appealing.
Personally I'll take a town of 500. Close, but not TOO close to a city of 100,000+. I could live in a town like that now that I'm mostly done doing things that make for good gossip.
Starting to think I'd like life in a smaller city. I've tired of the suburbs, have had my one-lifetime fill of a very large city and don't think I want to live in a rural area. My wife is very much an urban/suburban person; a small city would take some convincing.
Also some of the more mid-sized cities (at least compared to NYC) have great suburban areas with easy access to downtown. I lived in a suburb about 10 miles out of Boston in a smallish town called Melrose. My apt was across from a 2000 acre "wild" park with tons of trails and wildlife, yet right close to the towns VERY cute main street and all the activities of small town life (beano at the church on Friday night :-)!) with all the old victorian and colonial houses, old cemetery, etc... But it was only a couple of minute walk to the train into Boston - and about a mile from the subway (the T). So I never had to actually drive into Boston but it was very easy to get there, to the airport as well as other areas both insdie and outside Boston. And Boston, at least the downtown area, is VERY walkable and compact. So maybe looking at a smaller, but still big, city will give you everything you want.
Personally I'll take a town of 500. Close, but not TOO close to a city of 100,000+. I could live in a town like that now that I'm mostly done doing things that make for good gossip.
Then there would be just more things to make-up about you to keep the gossip flowing to those small town folks - and those made up stories are always so much juicier then real life :-)!
I do wonder if there is a difference between us single (and still looking) childless people and you married folks about the size town we'd want to live in. Living in a town of 500 would be too limiting socially for me - let alone dating-wise - unless the entire population was Brad Pitt clones :-)!
Personally I'll take a town of 500. Close, but not TOO close to a city of 100,000+. I could live in a town like that now that I'm mostly done doing things that make for good gossip.
:D
I spent my early childhood in a coastal resort with a year-round population of 300 or so. It had its charm, but it left me with a lifelong distaste for small towns. Any place that marries natural beauty with the amenities of city life has my vote. My sweet little suburb recently surged to over 20,000 contented souls, not including coyotes.
Also some of the more mid-sized cities (at least compared to NYC) have great suburban areas with easy access to downtown. I lived in a suburb about 10 miles out of Boston in a smallish town called Melrose.
Living in an older suburb of Washington, DC. that is in a race between suburban sprawl and urban decline.
I like the streetcar-type suburbs of Northeastern cities that you mention. Since we are not in a position to deal with either renovation or stairs, anything close to that style in the Washington area would start at $500,000.
Living in an older suburb of Washington, DC. that is in a race between suburban sprawl and urban decline.
I like the streetcar-type suburbs of Northeastern cities that you mention. Since we are not in a position to deal with either renovation or stairs, anything close to that style in the Washington area would start at $500,000.
Yeah, price of housing is always the killer in pretty much any "close to the city but sort of in the country" kind of 'burbs. Especially in the northeast. And then you have to deal with high heating costs and property taxes. When (if) i buy again it'll probably be a small condo in a fairly warm climate -even though I love snow and cold weather - where I don't have to worry about all that stuff. Would love to just rent the rest of my life but I know financially that probably isn't practical. Have also thought of getting a small condo in a small northern city like Burlington, VT or Portland, Me and doing the snowbird thing to Calif in the winter (family there) but probably will live in Calif and just visit new england in the summer and fall. Cheaper for me that way overall and in the long run 9especially if my sister and I buy a place together like we might) but I'll still live close to a city get to enjoy that mix of country and city.
http://www.johnlscott.com for Portland real estate. And do watch Portlandia (on IFC, and maybe Hulu) to get a feel for the culture!
Actually, if you want the best of both country community & city conveniences, find a Cohousing community to live in! There are several with homes for rent or for sale: http://www.cohousing.org/marketplace
Actually, if you want the best of both country community & city conveniences, find a Cohousing community to live in! There are several with homes for rent or for sale: http://www.cohousing.org/marketplace
I looked at several co-housing places a few years ago and thought the idea was interesting and a good way to go. But I don't actually like the sharing of things like they do in most co-housing. I like to keep a bit of distance from my neighbors - be neighborly and friendly but noyt overerly involved with each others lives. Cool website though!
I think that whether a person likes the country life or the city life - or something inbetween - then they should probably find a way to live that way irregardless of if one is a bit cheaper then the other. As the OP pointed out, there isn't really that much differnence in the cost between the two - but a big difference in the lifestyle.
Jane, I've never seen Portlandia but I think that Oregon and not Maine (give me snow over rain anyday!!). Is that on cable? I don't have cable at home but do when I'm travelling.
I'm also curious about the difference between renting vs. buying in the city compared to the country. City rents are high even for tiny studio apts - especially in downtown areas of big cities - where as the country you can get a huge house for much less. I guess that's the same with buying too but with renting in the city you often have less overall expenses - besides mortgage - then you would owning a big house and land.
Yes, IFC is on cable, but you can see all kinds of clips at Hulu.com. Yes, that's Oregon. I forgot you were yearning for New England.
There is a difference between city life, country life and small town life. Small towns seem to fit somewhere in the middle for me. Of course where I grew up it was 24 miles to the grocery store and 96 miles to the nearest theater to see a movie. That was country! Small towns in the midwest offer incredible bargains for anyone looking to live inexpensively and simply. They don't usually offer lots of activities, but aren't dead either. I've always been surprised that more people don't end up retiring in such places. Here's a listing for a small house that a friend has for sale right now in a small town not far from me, just to give an idea what is out there. This town is about 45 minutes from Lincoln, NE (a university town of around 285,000) and a couple hours from Kansas City which has 2,000,000+ in the metro area. I could easily have a home base in this kind of town. DW not so much.
http://www.schultis.com/propertydetails.php?id=6932&city=bea&type=rs#
There is a difference between city life, country life and small town life. Small towns seem to fit somewhere in the middle for me. Of course where I grew up it was 24 miles to the grocery store and 96 miles to the nearest theater to see a movie. That was country! Small towns in the midwest offer incredible bargains for anyone looking to live inexpensively and simply. They don't usually offer lots of activities, but aren't dead either. I've always been surprised that more people don't end up retiring in such places. Here's a listing for a small house that a friend has for sale right now in a small town not far from me, just to give an idea what is out there. This town is about 45 minutes from Lincoln, NE (a university town of around 285,000) and a couple hours from Kansas City which has 2,000,000+ in the metro area. I could easily have a home base in this kind of town. DW not so much.
http://www.schultis.com/propertydetails.php?id=6932&city=bea&type=rs#
So cute!! Can't believe that there are places with not only tiny houses, but inexpensive houses too. Would be perfect for someone like me except the fact that it's probably too small of a town for me and ..er... it's in the Dakotas. No mountains or oceans or forests or lakes or rivers (well, I guess there is a big river or 2 :-)!), the things I need within 100 miles of where ever I live. Kind of limits me to either the east or west coasts were even small towns have expensive housing - although the link Jane sent seemed to show lots of small houses under $100K in Wash & oregon - but not the under $50K (sometimes MUCH under) that the mid-west seem to have. Although I agree, it would be a great place to retire just for the housing values alone - especially if you could use all the money you save on housing to go somewhere sunny and warm over winter. I wonder if alot of people will consider those areas of the country for retirement now that the economy is so bad and they lost so much.
I always say you pay extra for the view (and I'm willing to...)
I couldn't live anywhere I needed to drive miles to get to a library or thrift store or Indian restaurant. My ancestors left the Dakotas for a reason. (I have no idea what they were doing there in the first place. My guess is my Lutheran minister g-grandfather was evangelizing his way west.)
Ahem... Just to be perfectly clear we are in Nebraska, not the Dakotas. There is SUCH a difference. I wouldn't live up there, either. (They don't have football.)
Aqua Blue
1-18-12, 10:00am
Ahem... Just to be perfectly clear we are in Nebraska, not the Dakotas. There is SUCH a difference. I wouldn't live up there, either. (They don't have football.)
We do too, LOL. Although I have to say not nearly as much enthusiasm as the Cornhuskers or say The Montana Grizzlies. But, I am not that into football....
Where I live we have some absolutely beautiful views too. Some of the most gorgeous views I have ever seen. But I would just as soon keep it quiet. I used to live in Western Montana(Missoula) until everyone and their brother thought it would be a nice place to live. I would just as soon keep my little piece of heaven a secret. I don't want to have to move again.
Ahem... Just to be perfectly clear we are in Nebraska, not the Dakotas. There is SUCH a difference. I wouldn't live up there, either. (They don't have football.)
Oh Nebraska... just like Kansas... with corn :-)! I actually like Neb. - the eastern hilly half, and a city the size of Omaha or Council Bluffs (is that Neb or Iowa - can't tell where one state's corn feilds end and another's begins) would be a good sized place to live. Big enough for city stuff but small enough to have rural areas just outside the city. Still too far of a drive for a day at the beach though :-)!
I lived in Hutchison, Kansas as a kid for a year or 2, so am familiar (a bit) with the mid west. Corn and wheat, wheat and corn :-)!
Lol...I am from the part of Nebraska that has hills....LOTS of hills, but not a whole lot else, including corn. Here's a pic from our family spread. I think most people appreciate a little more activity and a little less elbow room. That's ok with us.
Mighty Frugal
1-20-12, 9:21pm
Lol...I am from the part of Nebraska that has hills....LOTS of hills, but not a whole lot else, including corn. Here's a pic from our family spread. I think most people appreciate a little more activity and a little less elbow room. That's ok with us.
ohhh so beautiful!
Lol...I am from the part of Nebraska that has hills....LOTS of hills, but not a whole lot else, including corn. Here's a pic from our family spread. I think most people appreciate a little more activity and a little less elbow room. That's ok with us.
Nice!! Actually looks like the foothills of Calif - Northern-central Calif at least. Of course housing prices there are just a tad higher than Neb. :-)!
Beautiful picture! I LOVE the Sandhills! I drove through there again last summer coming back from The Black Hills, took
Highway 2 from Alliance (after stopping at Carhenge). I swear I was the only car for a good three hours. I don't know why I adore the emptiness; I always have! I've also taken Route 20 to Valentine and then north to catch the interstate to The Badlands. I can't imagine what it is like in the winter though, being so incredibly isolated.
Winter can be challenging, mentally as much as physically. There are very few distractions from your own thoughts. Not everyone likes that. If you ever get a chance to drive Highway 97 from Mullen up to Valentine you will get to see my old stomping grounds. The isolation is excruciating and at the same time beautiful. What I miss the most is the quiet. Its not at all an absence of sound. The constant wind, bird calls, other animals, running water, etc. all contribute their voices to what my Dad called his "silent symphony". What it is out there is an absence of mechanical sound. There isn't much there that shouldn't be there. Its like the old Antoine de Saint-Exupery quote, "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." To my way of thinking a proper balance is achieved out in the hills.
I agree Gregg. We are on a little farm sandwiched between bigger farms and the farmers have animals, not crops, so very little mechanical (or any other) noise. We are on a dirt road off a dirt road. But also convenient - we are about 7 minutes to a small village of 300 and then another 30 minutes easy drive to a town of 20,000 and all the services. Then another hour to a capital city - I reckon these distance are just perfect!
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