View Full Version : Cry It Out--Longish
Okay, I know this might end up being a controversial thread, but I need advice.
My sweet baby girl is six months old now. She has outgrown the crying all day everyday phase some of you probably remember me talking about (thank God!) and is doing really well developmentally. She is right on track--eating solids, rolling around, learning to sit up, etc. The only issue we seem to be having is with sleep.
She will not nap at all during the day unless I am holding her. She is desperately tired (yawning, rubbing her eyes, etc.) but she will not sleep in her crib. I can get her to sleep, but the second I put her down in her crib, she starts crying. And then she cries. And cries. And cries. Nap time is then over; she will not go back to sleep after that. To make matters worse, she is then cranky and overtired all day long and won't go to sleep easily at bedtime.
Speaking of bedtime, she will not go to sleep in her crib at night time, either. If we do not put her down sleeping, none of us get any rest. Even when we do, she is still up 3-4 times a night some nights.
I love my daughter and do not think it is a bad thing that she wants to be with me. However, it is hard to never have a free hand to do anything. I need to get some sleep at night, too, and, since she still acts like she is starving all the time (despite tons of solid food), I am still nursing her every two hours during the day (and yes, she actually is eating during those times, not just nursing for comfort). She doesn't like her baby carrier, and I work from home and need to get some things done. I am tired of getting no sleep and then working from 9-11 pm and 4-6 am. I am exhausted and just cannot do it anymore.
Her pediatrician said to let her cry it out, but that method just doesn't seem to be working. I have let her go as long as 45 minutes (crying all the while myself) trying to do what her doctor said, and she just screams and screams and turns purple and throws up. It is torture for both of us, and she doesn't give up! She is very stubborn and just will not sleep that way. Her doctor said she is a "feisty baby" and would probably scream for a couple of hours. Well (and maybe this is where I am going wrong?), I just cannot listen to my child cry for that long (I still feel horrible about the 45 minutes). It would be different if they were just fussy cries, or if she cried for 10 minutes and then went to sleep. But that isn't what happens.
Has anyone been through this with their kid? I am wondering if anyone here didn't do the cry-it-out method? I am curious how that went. Everyone says I am spoiling her, like she will be some kind of little monster in a couple of years. But it seems cruel to let her cry for hours on end; I just can't do it. There has to be a better way.
Any advice? We do have a bedtime routine, and taking her into our bed with us (co-sleeping) is not an option for our family.
When my daughter was about 8 months old, I really, really, really needed some sleep. And so did she. I called all my friends who had young kids, and asked them what they did. What was the secret? How did babies sleep, because mine did NOT. A few of them were adamant about crying it out. We tried it with DD when she was just shy of 9 months old, for about a week. It did not work. I had to actually leave the house because I could not listen to her cry, and DH rocked her for a while and then put her in the crib. Well, after a few days she did fall asleep really quickly --- because she was exhausted from crying those other days! But then she would sleep for 1-2 hours and awake, refreshed enough to cry for hours. So we stopped. Neither of us liked it and we had just decided to try it because we all needed more sleep.
After that, I did what worked for us. I put her to bed, and went to her as I had before when she woke. We had an extra sofa in her bedroom and I often picked her up and would fall asleep on the sofa holding her. That was the only way she slept for more than about 2 hours in a stretch - if I was holding her. It worked for both of us, because I really needed more sleep, too. Co-sleeping in our bed didn't work because DH was always waking up and then in a fog all day, and he had to go to work.
When she was about 15 months old, I night-weaned her (from breastfeeding). That was when she started sleeping through the night. She was old enough to understand when I told her "no milk at night," but she still wasn't happy about it, and the first two nights were dreadful - she was up crying all the time. But then!!! on the third night, she slept for about 6-8 hours and it was like a miracle. If I had known it would be that easy, I would have done it a lot earlier.
In the end, you can ask everyone you know what they did, and you just have to try things. All kids are different, and all parents are different. But going to a crying baby, and cosleeping with a needy baby, are NOT "spoiling." When she is older you will realize what a strong bond you have forged. I personally don't think it's very rational that society thinks a tiny infant should sleep all alone in a dark room for 12 hours/night.
Thanks, Rosemary! That helps a lot!
Yeah, I guess I am just not a fan of cry-it-out. I teach my child and adolescent psychology students that infants don't really understand object permanence until about nine months. So to me, I tend to wonder what is going through my daughter's mind when I leave. Like, does she wonder why I am gone or think I might not come back? I just don't know, but it bothers me to think she feels so alone. I don't mean to sound judgmental towards the cry-it-out supporters. Like you said, all babies are different and families need to do what works best for them. But it's just not working for us, and I guess I tend to feel as though comfort/wanting to be held is still a legitimate need and this age.
Maybe what I need to do is just hang in there. I am planning to wean her from the breast at about a year. Perhaps things will improve then. It is just hard to feel so exhausted all the time, and since she won't take a bottle, I don't have anyone to help me with any of the feedings. Before I had her, I had no idea that some babies eat as often as she does! The nurses told me every 3-4 hours, not every 1-2! :~) But I'm not sorry. She brings us such joy...we wouldn't trade her! :-)
Bottom line, you're going to have to train her, Kat, and cry she will. By now, you should have a pretty fare idea as to when your daughter gets most tired through the day, so try different times throughout the course of the day to crib her. As I say, let her cry, but after a period of say, 10 minutes, pick her up, comfort her for a minute or two, then put her down again.
What you are looking to do is, A, gradually increase the space (time) between your visits, and, B, wean her from relying on you to comfort her (around the clock) when it comes to her sleep-time.
The process of cribbing her will be a repetitive one, and will test your patience for a few days, maybe a week (or so), but essentially what you have done by giving in and constantly holding your daughter, is you have spoiled her, and now she expects moms holding and coddling treatment.
Same goes for bedtime and night. Put her down at the usual time you put her down, if she cries, let her cry it out for a while (10-20 minutes), then go in and make an appearance. (Keep your visits short). Likewise through the night. Yes, you will put in a few tiring nights where you won't get any sleep, or very little, but you need to break the cycle and pattern you have established with her.
I practiced the cry-it-out method with a few of my kids, but mostly, I established a strict (and rigid) sleep/nap schedule for each of them from the very start, right from the time they were newborns. (From the get-go). While I do not support the idea of allowing a baby to cry for hours, I do support the more subtle approach to the cry-it-out method as I have outlined, and as I so mentioned, it's going to take some work.
Additionally, you could try one of those Ocean Wonders Aquarium crib attachment soothers, where it plays music, has lights, and bubbles. Or, a sound effects sleep therapy unit. You could also try moving the crib into your bedroom, placing it right next to your bed.
Are you sure there's nothing medically wrong going on?
You are pretty much describing my daughter at that age. And there was no letting her cry it out, because she would NEVER stop!!
I forget......is 6 months too old for one of those automatic swings? That seems to work for some kids.
Is she getting enough fat in her diet?
I wish I had more suggestions for you, but I don't. We went through the same thing, and just had to wait it out. If its any comfort, I've always heard that babies who fuss alot are very intelligent.
I would definitely make sure there wasn't something medical going on. Perhaps she has an intolerance to something she's eating??
Hang it there. I know it can be a real challenge.
"This too shall pass, This too shall pass, This too shall pass......"
Your new mantra :)
I've wondered if this is more of a girl thing than a boy thing. We're the only one on both sides of our families with boys, everyone else had girls and everyone else had months upon months of sleepless nights.
I nursed but started bottles as well pretty early on and by 6 months they were getting some cereal mixed in with a bottle for the night time bottle.
The 2nd one was more of a struggle at bedtime and very attached to me. We still talk about how he would scream "Hold You" over and over and over and over..... I'd be on the otherside of the closed door crying my eyes out with my husband not letting me into the room. I think the longest he ever took was 45 minutes to give up.
All I can offer is a cyberhug and encourage you to find moments for yourself and moments when you can rest. Is your husband or a friend able to watch your baby in the evenings so you can take a much needed nap before the night feedings? Finding a way to adjust your schedule so you can get some naps even for a few weeks will really make a change.
Thankfully about this age babies really start growing fast and constantly changing. You'll probably wake up one morning soon and realize that you got 4 or 5 hours straight or maybe even 6hours of uninterrupted sleep. I know that scared me to death the first time I realized the baby slept thru the night. I ran to the nursery thinking of SIDS and ended up waking him up myself just to make sure he was still breathing.
I'm not a fan of crying it out, not more than 10- 15 minutes at least. I like the ocean bubble thing Mrs M suggested. I've never seen one but it sounds wonderful. But I would use it as a tool. Get the thing, or a music box or something similar, and at first use it only when you are holding/comforting her. During nap time or whatever. Help her equate this thing with you and comfort. Meaning I wouldn't just turn it on and leave the room, cause then she might equate it with abandonment! Maybe do this for a week or two until when you turn it on she relaxes and starts to get sleepy and ready to sleep. Pavlov's dog you know. It might even take a month, who knows, but it might be worth a try. And I'd resist using it at any other time just out of frustration.
I feel for you. Most parent have been there done that at some point. Maybe not to the extent of you, but little ones can be so frustration because we don't know what they want/need and they can't tell us.
I'm wondering at the frequency of her feeding and the amount. Maybe you should revisit that with your doctor. I'm not saying that's what her frustration is with sleeping but it seems odd that she is eating some solids (cereal I suspect) and nursing every hour and still hungry, maybe something is going on there. Is she gaining weight as normal?
Good luck. She WILL grow up. It does happen.
Float On. Might just be luck, but I have two daughters (a number of nieces), and all patterned the boys closely. I'm not complaining! :)
[QUOTE=Float On;Thankfully about this age babies really start growing fast and constantly changing. You'll probably wake up one morning soon and realize that you got 4 or 5 hours straight or maybe even 6hours of uninterrupted sleep. I know that scared me to death the first time I realized the baby slept thru the night. I ran to the nursery thinking of SIDS and ended up waking him up myself just to make sure he was still breathing.[/QUOTE]
Boy I can laugh at that! My son slept through the night at TWO WEEKS! And by sleeping through the night I mean 6+hours. My husband and I woke at the same time, looked at each other in horror and ran in there expecting to find a corpse! But there he was just laying there grinning at us. That kid was a hoot! Lulled us into a false sense of security. My daughter, about a year and a half younger, didn't sleep through the night till 8-9 months.
Hi Kat:
I have a son about the same age as your daughter. He will easily fall asleep in his "buzzing" chair. It's a baby chair which kind of like a hammock, so he feels snug and it vibrates gently. Both him and my daughter had trouble falling asleep by themselves, but would have no trouble sleeping in those. Here is a link to what we have on amazon http://www.amazon.com/Fisher-Price-Infant-Toddler-Rocker-Friends/dp/B001HTJS60/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331044776&sr=8-1
HUGS ((((((Kat))))))
My DD and your DD are cut from the same cloth.
I think of her as my Little Determined Young Woman.
I do not have any advice for you for the specific time frame you are in at 6 mo., when my daughter was that age, we were in a very transitional phase of our lives and not in our own home, so we didn't even have a crib at that time to put her in.
I wasn't working at the time, so I just napped with my daughter and we co-slept.
I nursed her to nap and sleep, which I loved doing, but it seriously limited a lot of babysitting opportunities.
One evening my MIL kept DD and used the 'crying it out' method. And my daughter cried it out alright. Her eyes were crazy swollen and it pushed her over the edge into a cold. Maybe DD was getting sick anyway and that's what she was ticked off about.
There are a ton of books out there with various philosophies, I am sure that the moms and aunts on this board will point you to some good ones.
I just wanted to provide some support for you that you are not alone.
If there is one thing I have learned in joining Kidom is that I never really realized how Individual each and every one of us are.
I would comfort myself with the thought that I won't be sending my daughter off to college having to go to sleep with her...... Eventually she WILL get it.
And she did.
At a little over 1 y.o. I went back to work outside the home and she totally fell into the herd mentality of daycare and napped easily with all of her colleagues. And this transitioned to home as well - I could put her down and she would go to sleep for nap and night. It just happened. ?????
At about the same time I found a toddler bed on Craigslist and she LOVED sleeping in it. Right now at almost 4 she LOVES sleeping in her big girl bed she recently moved to.
Now our challenge is DD's eating.
For as Easy Peasy as her older brother was on nursing/taking the occasional bottle/sleeping/eating a varied menu , she is a PITA all the way! A very lovable PITA at that.
I will comfort myself with CathyA's statement that this is a sign of intelligence! ;)
Regardless, good manners CAN be taught. And she is learning to be polite in her obstinance. Manners are non-negotiable in our home now that everyone has the ability to speak.
Maybe you might want to shop around for a different pediatrician that can offer you suggestions that work better for you and DH?
One thing that has been interesting in raising children.... by the time I get a handle on something, we're onto the next phase!
Edit to Add: I am a huge fan of the Rock A Bye baby CD series.... It's grown up music in a lullaby style. I have the Pink Floyed and U2 copies and loved listening to them as much as my kids...
http://www.rockabyebabymusic.com/
As I look over my post maybe daycare was able to provide the comforting schedule for my daughter that I had such a difficult time doing given our circumstances at that moment.
Schedule is very comforting to babies/children.
I am not a 'scheduled' person and on most things I love going Freestyle.... I've had to work hard to change that about myself as a parent.
I haven't had sleeping work the same way for any one of my kids. I think sleeping is one of those things that is very different from kid to kid.
Cheyenne was rocked to sleep most of the first 6 months. We did let her cry it out some, probably a half hour, and I hated it. I couldn't listen to it. I'd go for a walk and Zach would go in periodically and pat her back or comfort her once in a while. It did work though after about a week. She still has a hard time falling asleep. I think she's like me. I still have trouble falling asleep too. She wouldn't sleep with us, either. She is a sensitive sleeper and I would wake her. Once she fell asleep in her crib she was almost always down for the night, though.
Bella had to go to sleep in her bouncy seat or swing for a while. She was an awful sleeper for the first six months and ever since then she's slept like the dead. Once she is out she is out.
James would go down fabulously and then wake up halfway through the night. Zach would take him into bed on his side (I have seizure issues so it's not safe for them to be with me) and they would sleep through the rest of the night. We shared a room with him at that time because ours was under construction. About two months of that and he started sleeping all through the night.
Travis just sleeps unless he's sick or teething. He fusses for about five minutes and then goes down and stays down.
All of that to say, there's no one way to do it. Experiment and see what works, but take the guilt out of it no matter what you end up going with. I don't think many people have had more sleep issues than I have and I have managed to become a mostly well adjusted adult. :)
I am in agreement with the "this too shall pass" mentality. As awful as you think it is, there will be an end. Perhaps you can't see it now, and that's difficult.
My mom says I woke continuously for about the first six years of my life. I have no real memories of that - even though I distinctly remember other things from around 3 and 4.
My dd slept in our room until she was 3.5, due to issues with her falling asleep and staying asleep in her own bed. Then, suddenly, she just started staying in her room. It was like a miracle!
My dh came home Saturday, and found me plastered to the couch by a nearly 3 year old sleeping granddaughter. He said, " Don't you think she's a bit old for that?" My reply was to point to our son - her dad, who's 24 and state "eventually they turn into one of those, and grow out of it."
Mighty Frugal
3-6-12, 12:28pm
I haven't read the other responses because if I do, I won't write mine.
I used crying it out and am a strong believer in it (judge me if you will but had I not I SERIOUSLY would have killed myself)
My eldest son didn't sleep more than 1.5 hours at a time. He only napped if he was in his car seat and I rocked it (so I couldn't 'nap when he does' like everyone tells you)
I was so sleep deprived I told my dh I was going to throw myself down the stairs-I could not take it anymore. I told him if there was a loaded gun beside me I would shoot myself in the head-and I am serious. I know I would be dead today if we had a firearm in our home.
Sleep deprivation is a torture unlike any I have ever suffered.
After 6 months of getting very very little sleep I was at the end of my rope.
My sister (a pschy. nurse) noticed my withdrawal and catatonic state and told me I had to sleep train my son. She then made my dh whisk me off for 2 days to Niagara Falls and she and my best friend sleep trained him. She saved my life. Seriously, saved my life
I didn't have the heart or nerve to begin so it was a God sent that she came along and did it for me.
Once back we needed to do it for only 2 more days before he got it. Sure it was hard but the book (it's been so long I forget-Farber? Ferber-that's it Ferberizing your kid) helped me.
The KEY to crying it out is to not pick up your kid-even if they cry for 4 hours straight.
If you pick them up after 2 hours you may as well pick them up after 2 minutes.
BUT, you do go in to let them know you are there. At certain intervals you go in and shush them and in a calm gentle voice tell them that you are there and it is time for them to sleep. (you don't leave them screaming for 4 hours by themselves)
After a few days your child will go to sleep by themselves right away.
You don't use it if the child is sick (my son had ear infections during his first year so each time he was sick we would pick him up etc when he cried at night) when they get better you need to re-ferberize them but it only takes one day at that point
He is 7 years old now (my other son is 6 and we did it for him too but he wasn't as bad) and both are happy normal smart kids.
It's not for everyone but it saved my life and gave my son his mom
Loving all the entries!
Mighty Frugal. So glad you had loved ones to step-in and help.
First, the question is "what is crying it out?" If we are talking about a concerted sleep training that involves leaving a child to cry alone, then there is ample evidence that this negatively affects the brain and can cause all kinds of cognitive and emotional problems.
Second to this, always, always follow your instincts. You know that crying it out is not right for your child, so do not do it.
Now, you say you need two things: 1. hands free; and 2. more sleep.
I suggest that to be hands-free, you consider getting a wrap. My son usually napped in his wrap -- he was pretty much held non-stop until he could crawl. I used a storchenweigan wrap, usually in a front and upright carry. He could nurse, sleep, or observe and chatter -- all hands free. One of my friends used a back carry more frequently for naps -- as she felt this was easier. But, we didn't get a knack for that, and DS preferred to be upright and on my front (access to breasts was particularly important to him, even after he was eating -- but his primary nutrition was breast milk until he was about 14/15 months old. So, we did a lot of this for a long time.
We used that wrap until he was 3, and now he walks everywhere.
For more sleep, we did bed-sharing. We were just able to better sleep this way. It's comfortable, and DS had constant access to the breast. He often went to sleep around 8 pm (before age one), and I would put him down next to us (where ever we were). Then, when I went to bed, I simply took him to bed with us. He would often wake once during the night to toilet and nurse, and then back out again. But, of course, many children are more restless.
If you need/want resources about bed-sharing, let me know. We still bed share with DS today. It's very cozy.
Something else to mention, when you get your daughter to a point where she will settle in her crib (and she will), gently rub her back/tummy (for a few minutes) to help ease her into a sleep state. This, too, is a process that will require some repetition, but once your daughter establishes a feeling of comfort and calm when mom comes in (which won't take more than a day or two), you'll be able to scale-back the time you spend rubbing her back and calming her, and in turn, she will progressively relax and fall asleep all on her own, faster and faster with each crib placement. Most everything (baby related) is a graduated process when it comes to problematic issues and challenges.
A friend of mine also used Ferber (which is a cry-it-out method that has evidence stating that it harms them emotionally and neurologically), and several of my friends use the No-Cry Sleep Solution by Elezabeth Pantley. (http://www.pantley.com/elizabeth/books/0071381392.php) to great success. The second book provides several options (including the two that I wrote above), so you can look at a whole lot of different elements and go from there.
Article from Dr Sears about Crying it Out (http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/child-rearing-and-development/shutdown-syndrome) -- though anecdotal, not research-based. And here is a research-based blog post (http://www.phdinparenting.com/2008/07/05/no-cry-it-out/#.T1Zl9mYs1D0) about it.
When DD was small, we would rock her and then put her in her bed. We would sit in the rocking chair until she went to sleep (otherwise......there would be hell to pay). When we thought she was finally asleep, we would quietly get up out of the chair and start out the room and she would SCREAM!! She would go from looking asleep to screaming her lungs out! Like I said before, there was no letting her cry it out. She had a will of steel!
Then she went through a spell of waking up around 4:30 in the a.m. and wanting to play out in the living room. One of us would sit in her room with her and not let her out. She would scream and scream and scream, trying to get the door open. It was ridiculous.
And lots of people would have advice for us, but they never had our DD for a child! We have to be careful to not think that what worked for us, works for everyone. Some children are just alot harder than others. We could never take her anywhere when she was little. She would scream herself silly. DH and I really felt sorry for ourselves. hahahaha
LOL, CathyA! i.e. Feeling sorry for yourselves. :)
My SIL went through a trying bedtime spell with one of her children. She'd tuck him into bed and say to him, "night- night", then she'd turn the light off and leave the room. Next thing she knew, there he'd be, wandering outside of his room, walking down the hallway, or running around and playing.
At wits end, SIL, took to parking a chair directly outside his bedroom door, and with trusty wooden spoon in hand, she'd wait for him to exit his room. The minute he got out of bed and opened the door, she'd POP him on the bottom, then march him straight back to bed. First and second offenses were kept mild, but for third-time offenses, she turned the heat up! :laff: Dear nephew learned to stay in bed.
Thanks for posting the links, Zoebird. (Reserving them for my tonight's read).
I'm not one for hitting kids, but the method overall is sound.
When DS is fighting bed time, we do our stories, he gets his back rub and cuddles, and then we go into the next room (which is open to the bed), and if he gets out of bed, we just quietly get up and put him back into bed. And we do this over and over and over. He goes in phases -- some where he's easy to put in bed (and goes right to sleep), and some where he's very challenging and difficult in that regard.
Thanks, everyone, for sharing your experiences and insight! I appreciate all perspectives on this and am interested to hear what worked (or didn't for others).
Mrs. M--your post made me chuckle because that is pretty much verbatim what my mom said! The method you outlined is what her doctor told us to do, and we did try it. It just didn't really work. After ten minutes, she was so upset she was throwing up, and there really is no comforting her once she gets to that point. She does have a crib toy like the one you mention, but she doesn't seem to care about it all that much.
Merince--thanks for the link to the bouncy seat. She has one, but she has outgrown it. We did have some success with that early on because, as you said, I think she felt cradled in it somewhat. The one you link to goes up to toddler age, though, and looks nice. I'll look into it!
Mighty Frugal--I am sorry to hear you went through such a rough time with your child. I can't say that I feel the same, but I do appreciate you sharing your story and can understand how one might get to that point. Lack of sleep does weird things to us! I am glad you had some family willing to help you. :-)
zoebird--I thought about a wrap, too. We do have a baby carrier thingy that can go in front or back. She loves to be in it with her daddy, but she isn't so fond of it when it's me. She just likes my arms, I guess. Maybe a sling tied the right way would mimic the way my arms feel. I hear that bed-sharing is a great thing for some families, but it isn't an option for us.
Cathy--I have wondered, too, if there might be some medical issues at play. She has been so hungry from day one, like starving all the time no matter what. I feed her oatmeal and fruits and veggies everyday and she is still hungry! Her doctor says she is fine, though, and gaining weight. MIL tells me DH was like that when he was a baby. She just couldn't feed him enough. He is still like that, actually. Eats like a horse! I guess he just passed on his freaky hunger gene to my kid! ;-)
Speaking of the kid, she is crying--I'll write more later! ;-)
Thanks again!
Kat, my DD ate very frequently as well when she was very young. Babies grow very quickly, and their stomachs are very small, so I think that's pretty normal. I would guess that the fats in breastmilk would keep a baby full longer than most other foods that are suggested for them to eat at 6 months.
Definitely check out the No Cry SLeep Solution book. There are lots of options and ideas in there -- far beyond the two that i mention. So, definitely worth checking out.
A wrap is different from a carrier. Most carriers are actually quite uncomfortable for infants, btu they tend to tolerate them on daddies moreso than mommies. With a wrap, you two could even be topless/naked and she'll likely enjoy the skin-to-skin (DS did) even as she gets older and more mobile.
Also, when you do put her down in bed (assuming she's asleep) is the bed warm? Using a heating pad (on a sheepskin) is a great idea, with a wool blanket on top. Then, it's warm like being held.
Her body heat, then, in between the sheep skin and the wool blanket will "reverb" off the wool and keep her toasty warm until she naturally kicks it off to cool off.
And, room sharing might help (having her crib in your room) or "arms length" away -- it'll at least be easier for you to nurse her in the night.
My son also ate a lot. I gave him a lot of high fat foods (fat at every meal!) and that helped satiate him. we were low grain then (very rarely had oatmeal etc). but full fat raw yogurt (with a bit of cod liver oil or flax) with berries, avocado dip with his veggies, even just buttered broccoli. . . scrambled eggs. strips of chicken and beef to chew.
we did baby lead weaning -- this means he was eating solids from the beginning -- no purees, so it may be different to train a kid without having to tear things into tiny bits like you do these days for little ones.
Originally posted by Zoebird.
I'm not one for hitting kidsI'm not either, but one of the things I really enjoy Re: parenting topics, is being able to share stories (of all kinds), both from my own perspective and experience, and those related to other peoples experiences. Always fun to hear from people.
Kat. You have described to me the perfect example of a spoiled baby. If your daughter was mine, I'd let her throw-up. Then, I'd go in and clean her up, tuck her back in, soothe her for a few minutes (regardless of what effect it had on her), then leave her on her own again to fret, cry, fuss, and kick.
The reason your daughter doesn't like her crib or the crib toy, is because she has mommy. You've made life too comfortable, too easy, and too convenient for her. I know at times it's easy to say to oneself, "I tried, but it didn't work", but what you have to do, I mean really have to do, is make up your mind that you are not going to allow your infant daughter to rule the roost, then, introduce a sleep schedule/program (like the one I outlined) with conviction, and no matter how defiant your daughter becomes, stick-it-out (to the end).
Even young babies are capable of sensing control, and a who's in charge approach, particularly if you format and gauge your actions (and reactions) in accord to her cries for attention, and that's all they are, cries for attention, because your daughter knows she owns you. (She knows).
I know it's hard, but the consequences of sleep-deprivation can result in much more severe side-effects that can lead to dire and even grave conclusions (see Mighty Frugal's entry), if allowed to manifest for any length of time.
To add, I mentioned moving your daughters crib into your bedroom (with you), right beside you, Kat. Did you give that a go? If so, what was the outcome?
I completely and utterly disagree with Mrs M's assessment that the baby is spoiled or that a child can be spoiled.
There is nothing wrong (and in fact everything right -- and the science bears this out) with meeting your baby's needs, which includes being with a 'high needs' baby when they are 'high needs.'
THere is nothing biologically appropriate about getting used to a crib or crib toy. It is entirely biologically appropriate for a child to want to be with it's mother -- particularly in infancy and until a child is about 3 yrs old when they actually begin to feel/know that they are a separate "I" from their mothers. Before this point, they do not.
There is also ample scientific evidence that meeting your child's biologically appropriate needs in ways that are also biologically appropriate creates happy, healthy, well adjusted children. It isn't "spoiling" them at all -- it is meeting their needs. Very real, very human needs.
(Why Spoiled Babies Grow Up to Be Smarter, Kinder Kids (http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/29/no-such-thing-as-too-much-love-spoiled-babies-grow-up-to-be-smarter-kinder-kids/#ixzz1oOc39GFV))
I know that a lot of people have a lot of beliefs about child rearing -- I am the same.
But there is a difference between some beliefs and others. Some beliefs are based in science, reflected in instinct, and understood in sociology and psychology. Other beliefs are customs that are handed down and based in philosophical assumptions about the way children work -- often characterizing them as manipulating, controlling, and spoiled.
The reality here is that you now must find a method that works -- one that balances the needs of your child with your own needs.
There may be many factors to weigh, but when you keep these two things in balance, you'll discover that the whole situation is a lot happier, a lot easier, and worth it in the long run.
Putting the extra effort in now, and developing a healthy attachment in your child, will make for a much happier child as s/he gets older.
and FWIW, I have no problem with a family choosing to use cribs or have a crib toy. some babies really, really take to it -- quickly and easily. My sister's son has transitioned from the bed-side bassenette and some cosleeping to the crib with no problem at all. My best friend's child did the same -- she was a side-car sleeper until about 10 months old, and then moved to the crib. Several other friends of ours have children who have been sleeping in cribs (in their room or out) from day one. For some babies and some families, it just works.
Other children are different. They desire a great deal of closeness.
---
Also, on medical issues, you might consider traditional osteopathy (which is a form of gentle, healing manipulation). She could have pressure in her head from the birth that is causing her low-level, chronic discomfort such that she seeks comfort from you frequently -- and it might be particularly intense when she is laid in bed vs being held in arms (head usually higher than feet). You might consider raising one end of the crib a bit, for example, so that her ears stay on basically the same plane -- above her feet.
----
There are lots of potential causes for what is going on, and infinitely more possible solutions.
I think you don't want your child to CIO, and the science bears out that CIO isn't healthy for children. There's TONS of research on this.
Which means you need to find the solution that will work for you that doesn't involve CIO -- and as fast as possible before you loose your mind. Right? :)
ZB, What is 'CIO'?
I just googled it and top five entries said "Chief Informational Officer", I know that's not it.
Cry It Out = CIO. That's what we call it in the mommy circles.
THere's some debate as to whether "ferberizing" is CIO -- i think it depends upon the kid, honestly. A friend of mine did Ferber with her kid, and it was a charm -- modest crying, done in 3 days, no worries. Another friend tried it and the kid got so distressed as to freak out (up to vomiting), and that was just not healthy. So, method didn't work. They went with another option in No-Cry Sleep Solution (I think there are, like 7,000 options in there), and ultimately found one that worked really well.
I was also wondering -- Kat, does the baby crawl yet?
I found that 2 or more hours outside letting DS crawl on open ground (at Valley Forge Park no less) was really helpful for him getting a sense of his body and independence. People would freak because I would let him crawl on the ground (so weird), but it's healthy for their spacial and physical development. Also helps build immunity and decreases allergies. Anyway, he would free range pretty far from me (i always had my eyes on him, and could easily get to him in a few short steps) -- and people would freak out, but being out of doors really helped us both. . . A LOT.
On days when DS didn't get outside for at least two hours, he had a heck of a time getting to sleep and staying asleep. He wouldn't nap if he hadn't been outside.
I'd started us with the doctor's recommendation of 20-30 minutes every day! (our doctor was awesome!), and then noticed that when it was at least two hours, he was happier, slept better, and it was SO much better.
I worked us up to 6 hours of outdoor time (three seasons) and 2 hrs in winter. I would wrap and hike with him. Warm for both of us, fun and good.
A couple other things that helped us:
- flannel crib sheets. Even in summer. DD still loves soft and cozy things, and uses flannel sheets most of the year, and she's nearly 9.
- white noise. I had a radio that played various noises. You could also use a fan. Helped to block noises from the rest of the house on those rare occasions when she was actually asleep.
When I was completely exhausted I would nap with DD, and then she would sleep much longer. I know, you never get time to get anything done when you're a new mom, but sometimes you really need sleep more than anything else, so go with what works.
My DD became slightly less fussy once she could sit up, at 5 months; then a little less again once she could crawl, at 8 months; then less still once she could walk, at 11 months. She did have issues with reflux as an infant, which is an inherited trait in my family, but medication for this did not resolve the fussiness.
However, she did not sleep through the night until I night-weaned her - and even after that, disruptions in the schedule often bumped us back to the old no-sleep routine - especially when she was sick, even at age 2. I've heard this same connection from other nursing moms with fussy babies as well - so if you're nursing during the night, and you/your Dr think the baby can go through the night without, maybe that's something to try. The way we did this was that we told her there would be no more milk at night. When she cried during the transition nights we went to her, did the usual comforting - but no nursing. I offered her a sippy cup of water instead. Two nights, and it was done - and we slept.
As I said previously, my dd was 3.5 yo and still sleeping in our bed - unable to sleep in her own bed through the night. Multiple wake cycles every night. Not an easy kid, as far as sleep goes. But, during the day the most pleasant, easy-going child. Very able to be integrated into whatever the rest of the family was doing. There was never a scenario where I could not include her. The first night she slept all night in her own bed was also the first night our newborn ds slept in his crib (they shared a room at first).
Our ds was a great sleeper. We could put him down in his crib awake, and he would settle and fall asleep alone. The two were like night and day (literally).
My dd had lots of wrap / carry time with us. My ds didn't need or want that level of closeness.
Both children have grown up to be normal, happy, well adjusted adults.
I now have three grandchildren. The first was a difficult sleeper, and was still in our bed on the weekends until he was almost five. He's now seven, and has no issues with sleeping - but if there is an abnormal event, (hurricane season, the recent passing of his grandfather) he wants to sleep in our room on the floor with his sleeping bag. The second grandchild is almost three. She still wakes a time or two in the night. There was one night over Thanksgiving that she woke up 12 times by two am - she fell out of bed four of those times - and I ended up sleeping with her on the carpeted floor. Not sure what triggered that rough night! Grandchild #3 is eight months, and has slept through the night since he was six weeks old. I know, that is highly unusual - but we'll take it. He has had the recent passing of his grandfather causing a disruption in scheduling, and dd is trying to get him to sleep through again. A few days of missed naps/late nights/ different people has him a little discombobulated - but we know he can do it, so we are gently guiding him back to sleeping through.
I guess my mini-sample of five kiddos shows that even with the same parents / environment / philosophy - each child is an individual. What works for one may not work for another. You just have to keep trying. Sometimes nothing but time will be the answer.
Kat - I know you guys aren't able to co-sleep... and I am NOT pushing you in that direction.
Just sharing our experience to add to general conversation.
The minute we found out about expecting kid2 we immediately started budgeting for a King Bed!
(and looking back, I wish we would have had King Bed for kid1)
It has been a lifesaver for us.
Totally a different strokes for different folks for different individual little people issue, that's for sure.
My niece slept in her swing for a long time. Not moving, she just preferred the seated position. She's always been difficult about bedtime which came as a shock to her parents. When her older brother was a baby, his mom would put him in pajamas and sit him down with a quiet toy on a blanket...when bedtime came, he would just fall asleep and tip over right there...mom would come back and put him in his crib. He's still very self-sufficient...
Zoebird's suggestion of fresh air is a good one Kat. I know you live here in the Great White North and if your area is looking anything like mine, it's too wet for putting babies down outside right now, but even just getting a nice walk in during the day can help. If you are too tired for a walk (I have soooo been there) it's an easy thing to ask other people to do, especially as the weather is getting nicer and people are getting out and stretching their legs anyway. Maybe see if a friend would take her out for a walk while you take a nap.
This thread brings back memories! I, too, had a kid who would not nap anywhere but my arms (she didn't like the sling/swing/bouncy seat either). Co-sleeping wasn't an option for us either. Things that helped me was having a rock solid consistent evening schedule. She always got a warm bath at 7:30 and then I nursed her right before bedtime. I also used one of those sleepsacks, so I think that helped signal it was time for bed.
What other animal insists on its young sleeping away from its parents? Just wondering.......
What other animal insists on its young sleeping away from its parents? Just wondering.......
Quite a few actually. Many animals are left to fend for themselves from birth. Others leave babies unattended in nests or dens to find food. I'm not suggesting that parents do that, just saying that we can't necessarily look to the animal kingdom for our parenting wisdom.
Thanks, everyone! I love hearing all your stories, and the "been there, done that, survived and my kid is okay, too" posts are really encouraging.
Mrs. M and zoebird, your posts (to me, anyway) seem to reflect the opposing sides of this issue. Basically the "you can't spoil a baby" viewpoint and the "you can--and are--spoiling your baby" viewpoint.
Mrs. M--I agree that I need to commit, really commit, to finding a good sleep routine. What I have trouble committing to, though, is allowing my baby to cry (and not just fussy cries or "regular" cries, but desperate, anxious screams) for hours on end. I just cannot do it. And that is not meant to sounds like a judgment on you and your methods, Mrs. M. You seem like a gentle soul and a really wonderful mother! :-) I think your idea of moving the crib in my room for awhile is a very good one, but DH is dead set against it, feeling that our room should be a haven for the two of us to come to at the end of the day. Most of the time, I understand his view and agree. Every once in awhile, the snarky (read: exhausted) side of me thinks, "Well, you aren't the one getting up a trillion times a night!" ;)
zoebird--I like the idea of warming up the bed. A friend made her a lovely wool duvet; maybe I will try laying that down on her sheets for awhile before I put her down. I also agree with what you and others have said about fats. I notice that my milk, when I pump it out is really thin. I have wondered from day one if maybe that wasn't an issue. Anyway, I am going to try feeding her some avocado and bananas sauteed in a little butter (per her baby food book) and see if those things don't help some. I have noticed that when she eats well (and by eating well, I mean eating like twice what the doctor said to feed her), she sleeps better.
stella and zoebird--I do live in the midwest, so I can really only go outside when the weather cooperates. When the baby was a newborn, we went for walks outside everyday, and she slept really well. Yesterday it was 66 degrees here, so I took her out for a walk and she slept well. I was able to put her in her crib for a short nap (about 30 minutes) and she slept through the night (is still sleeping, actually!). So sunshine apparently equals sleeping magic!
Rosemary--I might try night weaning if it seems like she shouldn't actually be hungry. She eats so much, though, that it is hard to know! ;-) I think sometimes when she wakes she is legitimately hungry as she eats a full meal!
I guess as a scientist, I look for scientific evidence before making decisions. What I have seen of late is not really in favor of CIO. I guess I wouldn't mind so much if she gave up and went to sleep in a few minutes. But she doesn't, and I can't help but wonder what the effects of prolonged distress like that would be on a baby. I don't think I am willing to risk it. The only thing that seems to be agreed upon in child rearing is that every child is different. If that is true, then there is no one method that applies to all situations. It is not as though I *never* put her down. I do, several times a day, and she is fine. It's just the sleeping that is an issue, and I think maybe she needs a gentler approach to that.
Thanks again, everyone, for your advice and support. It is nice to have a community like this one to come to. I value your experience and love hearing what you did with your kids! ;-)
We have to be careful to not think that what worked for us, works for everyone. Some children are just alot harder than others.
This is worth saying again.
I really appreciated hearing that, too, Float On (so thanks, CathyA! :) ) The only babies I had ever been around before becoming a mom were so mellow. I watched my nieces regularly, and they never cried, were always happy, and slept like a dream. As foolish as it sounds now, that is what I was expecting when I brought my baby home from the hospital. Little did I know that I would have a hungry baby who constantly cried and never slept! I mean, I love my child more than life itself; to me, she is perfect. But...I had no idea it would (or even could be) this hard. I keep telling myself that the work I do now is in investment in her and in our mother-daughter bond. Others have commented that she is stubborn and demanding and into everything. But I prefer to think of her intelligent and strong. I can't wait to see the woman she becomes. :-)
Originally posted by Zoebird.
There is nothing wrong (and in fact everything right -- and the science bears this out) with meeting your baby's needs, which includes being with a 'high needs' baby when they are 'high needs.'Couldn't agree more. However, allowing a baby to throw a perfectly normal and established household (along with everyone's schedules in that household) into complete turmoil, isn't parenting to me. There is such thing as balance, and for every "high-needs baby", comes a high-needs parent.
Originally posted by Kat.
I think your idea of moving the crib in my room for awhile is a very good one, but DH is dead set against it, feeling that our room should be a haven for the two of us to come to at the end of the day.Oh, really? Tell you what sweetie, if I were walking in your shoes, I'd have more than a choice word or two for your husband. Was your husband on-board with having a baby? If he was, then he should have given thought to change, change in the way of some of it not necessarily being favourable (at times), as much as he doesn't like it. He should count his blessings over- you doing, what you are doing (and going through), and be thankful you haven't sat the baby down on his lap and told him, HERE!
A few thoughts...
* remember that nothing is forever. it's ok to try something for a few nights and if it doesn't work, try something else. For instance, if she wakes in the middle of the night and won't settle, you can crash with her on the couch for a while, both of you can sleep, and then you can put her back in her crib next time you awaken. This stage will pass and eventually you will have the life - and night-time routine - you expected.
* My DH is one who cannot have interrupted sleep. He simply cannot function on it, and when DD was an infant, he was working full-time and writing a PhD dissertation. I respected his need for sleep, and I dealt with the baby wakings and slept when I could, how I could. It was what we needed to do at the time. Kat, you too will have to figure out how *everyone* can sleep.
* The nap and bedtime routine changes so rapidly with infants. I think by 6 months, my DD was down to one nap/day (if you would call it that... a catnap at that time) and the nighttime not-sleeping routine.
* In retrospect, once DD started sleeping, I realized that the reason she probably had not slept was that she was TOO TIRED to sleep. Have you ever experienced that? If I stay up an hour past my tired-time, then I get a second wind. If I stay up 3 hours past , then I am too wired to sleep. I think this happens with infants - and I KNOW it happens with toddlers and older kids. So if you can figure out a way to get her to catch up on sleep for a few nights, it's possible that it might solve the problem. (As a mom... I learned many things in retrospect. I was too tired to learn much at the time.) Once my DD started sleeping (at 15 months), she slept for 12 hours at night and took 3-hour naps! (!!!)
* Consider your diet, too, when you're thinking about your daughter's diet... what you eat affects your bm. Plenty of research on that if you want to look it up, and kellymom probably has an article about it. If 6 months is too young for some of the things you'd like her to get in her diet, you can eat them instead!
* I don't agree that a high-needs baby reflects on the parent. I know too many parents who have had both "easy" and "high-needs" babies - and the high-needs one was not always the first one.
* Consider that allowing extended crying might have other impacts, such as giving baby an upset stomach.
Do you have a spare room in the house, with a bed (and everything), Kat? If you do, that's where I'd be setting up home for myself (and baby) for the next few days, while you work on getting things on a level of fair-to-middlin'.
Hi Kat:
I would second the suggestion to try to get her outside in the fresh air.
My little guy's routine is as follows: first he gets some quality play time with his sister, which is usually him trying to follow her around crawling. Then he eats his cereal and his fruit puree, then shower/bath. By that time he's already sleepy/tuckered out. He then nurses for a little bit and I put him in his "buzzing" chair and he's out. I move him to his crib when I am ready for bed and at that time he nurses one more time. This was his routine from the beginning (well, without the crawling part ;) ) and initially he would not fall asleep unless somebody was in the room with him. Keeping the room really dark also helps, as he does not have the visual stimulus.
If you see she's getting sleepy just stay by her, so she can hear you breathing. Once she learns that she's not getting left by her lonesome, she will learn to relax and may proceed to fall to sleep. You can try to break it in "baby" steps. Teach her that it's OK to be by herself in the crib while you're nearby and just extend the time you're not holding her.
I was able to put her in her crib for a short nap (about 30 minutes) and she slept through the night (is still sleeping, actually!). So sunshine apparently equals sleeping magic!
Yay! That is good to hear! The weather should be getting better from here on out, with the few usual hiccups, so hopefully you will both be able to get more sleep. Sleep deprivation is such a killer!
As a mom... I learned many things in retrospect. I was too tired to learn much at the time.)
LOL. My FIL was just saying that last night. I think it's so true.
We have to be careful to not think that what worked for us, works for everyone. Some children are just alot harder than others.
Another +1 to this also! In addition to each kid being different each person's circumstances are so different that we can't really know what it's like to be in each others shoes. The best we can do is share our variety of experiences and give each other ideas to try.
Some things I wish someone had reminded me of when I was exhausted, frustrated and worried about what to do:
1) You are doing a good job. You love that baby. She knows that on an instinctual level and by the time she is cognitively capable of understanding that concept (as much as any of us are) she will have years and years and years of experience with you behind her that will put all of those bad moments in context. She has a good life, loving parents, food, shelter and stability. Every child should be so lucky.
2) My sister's grandma-in-law, who dispensed much of the best parenting advice I've ever heard, told her once, "the people who's babies end up scarred for life are the ones who don't give a ****, not the ones who are trying to find something that works for their family." Human beings are resilient. We are constantly learning and processing the world around us, from birth until death. I know a lot of brain development happens in these early years, but even the best early childhood a kid can have is still going to have bumps in the road. I think even those bumps, maybe even especially the bumps, teach both kids and parents a lot of good life lessons.
3)Because I know you are Christian I will put this one in here even though it may be unpopular. God gave this baby to you and DH to care for and He's backing that up. Even if it doesn't feel like it, there is grace in these moments. I mention that because I have found it helpful to remember when I am stressed out, overtired and crabby. While I have an important, essential role in raising my kids, I'm not in it alone. It's not entirely dependent on me. I can only do the best I can and leave the rest to God.
If any of that is helpful, take it and use it, if it's not, no big deal. Praying for more nights like last night!
Stella thank you for that post.
Dear Kat, I have to admit when I read that your DH has "feeling that our room should be a haven for the two of us to come to at the end of the day" I had the response of when someone tells you a joke and your mouth is full of milk. With infants, both my sister and I have found it's been hard to achieve any thing that even comes close to resembling a haven.... even in the best of 'easy baby' circumstances! :)
But good on your DH for clearly stating what he wants you all to aim for. And his request is valid.... although maybe not totally achievable at current juncture.
And super duper good on you for sharing that vision and being a really good sport about it in the face of what feels like tragedy!!!!
(If you are not accustomed to sleep deprivation in your pre-kid life and DD will only take YOU as the feeder (no breastmilk bottle) and you are having to go from your room to hers multiple times a night and you are beside yourself trying to figure dear crying baby's secret code .... when you are beside yourself tired it feels terrible)
The reality of the situation is he may have to enjoy your shared haven by himself for just a little bit until you get this ironed out. And you will!!!!!
I just wanted to send a gesture of support to you and encouragement to continue to not let it become a wedge issue.
My sister's first son was just a terrible infant/early toddler and it reeked havoc on her marriage that they are still healing from, barely.
Sounds like you are making some headway on finding your daughter's 'sleep combination' --- the fresh air,etc.
Sending you Mommy Love!
High-Needs
I used quotation marks because I do not believe in "high needs" as a moniker. I find that people use it in disparaging ways -- when it's really just a matter of meeting needs.
It is ok for a parent to have needs and to meet those needs. As a mother, I didn't want to leave my son for very long at all until he was about a year old, and even then, I didn't like to leave him for very long. Even now, I don't like to leave him for Kindy even though he loves kindy.
It turns out that attachment works both ways, and that DS is part of how I am healing my attachment issues too. In infancy, the closeness of mother and child can facilitate mny things for the mother -- such as hormonal balance that prevents post partum depression.
SO many methods in our modern world are designed to keep infants and mothers apart. Everything from swings and cribs and bottles and car seats and moms needing to go back to work and so on and so forth separates the mother and child -- no wonder PPD is on the rise.
And, I think the children are cared for in these situations -- loved. It's not an inditement against parents who have certain requirements in their lives (i.e., needing to work). It's simply saying that it can affect the mothers negatively in ways that they don't know.
Many of us who become instinctual and go natural, we find ourselves resisting the dominant paradigm. One of my friend's had a baby girl 5 months ago. She hasn't left baby girl with anyone for more than 30 minutes. I was the same when DS was that age. Her daughter, like DS, was exclusively breast fed.
Yesterday, she asked me if I ever pumped. Her DH and her mother and several people said "if you just pump, then you can have time to yourself, time to do your own thing. Even two hours!" But she said she didn't want to pump -- that not breastfeeding the baby girl seemed weird. But there was so much *pressure* to provide milk in bottles!
And I told her she needs to do what will work for her, and that it's OK (and not a pejorative "high needs") for her to want to nurse her daughter as she has been and until she is ready to no longer nurse her daughter (DS was 3 in my case). And, it's not imperative that the father, grandmother, or anyone else 'feed' the baby -- it is natural that this is the action of the mother. This is how our bodies were designed.
This also doesn't mean that choosing to use a bottle for any reason is wrong or bad. It is simply that SHE doesn't want to. And that's ok.
Likewise, infants will have varying needs. Some will have needs that are greater or higher than another infant due to disability. For example, one of my friend's babies had spina bifida and went into surgery several days after birth. Her care needs post operation were much higher than a normal baby -- but because they were high needs, should those needs not have been met?
If a child has particular emotional needs as well, or needs to sleep with it's mother, or wants to be held all day long in some form, or what have you -- why would we suddenly say that THOSE needs are not ok, but that other needs -- such as post operative care, or a specialized diet, or the need for an oxygen tank at night or whatever are ok?
Just because we can't see the outward origin of the need (because there isn't one, such as a surgical scar), doesn't mean the need is fake or shouldn't be met.
And it also doesn't make a child "high needs" any more than choosing a biologically appropriate path for the mother (i.e., mother choosing to exclusively breast feed) makes for a "high needs" mother.
On a Household/Family in Chaos
I think it is sad to blame the infant for putting a household or family into chaos. The infant doesn't have enough agency to do this. Yes, a new person changes many family dynamics -- I have experienced it first hand.
But, who is responsible for whether or not the household or family is in chaos?
The parents are. The people who should have the where-with-all to make decisions that facilitate creating a peaceful home. An infant doesn't have this.
And to create a peaceful home, people's needs must be met -- and the person with the highest needs (who cannot meet their own) come first. This could be grandma with dementia, a middle child with a broken leg, dad when he struggles with depression, or an infant. The burden will shift to the healthiest person to take up the work of meeting most of the needs -- until the balance can be maintained in another way.
When you have two adults who are generally healthy and capable, and one infant -- it shouldn't fall on the infant to create the household. It falls on the parents. And the infant is the person with the highest needs. So, the parents should focus on meeting those needs.
Once those needs are met, peace will reign.
In this instance, the problem is not the the baby is manipulating the mother and father (a common assumption -- I do not believe infants can manipulate). It's that the baby has needs that aren't' getting met (regarding the child's sleep needs), and that there is something "off the table" -- cosleeping.
The father's need for a sanctuary -- which is likely based on a lot of outdated ideas and possibly not even a need because he doesn't know any different and only assumes that this is necessary -- is being held as more valuable than his infant's and wife's needs in regards to sleep.
One option is that a second room -- where the crib is -- will also have a bed in it for the mother. A lot of families choose this -- particularly if the father is a light sleeper because it's not a good idea for dad to be a zombie either.
But there are also many others, and one of them may be the father re-evaluating his position on this matter.
He might ask himself: Which is more important? A healthy wife and daughter or the idea of my bedroom as a sanctuary?
And he might also ask: In the current circumstance, is the bedroom a sanctuary?
And he might ask as well: Since infancy is temporary, would I be willing to set aside my need for bedroom -as -sanctuary for the short time that my daughter will be an infant?
Once he lets go of this *idea* -- because it is just an *idea* about what bedrooms mean -- he might even discover that he LIKES cosleeping and/or prefers to have his daughter close to him far beyond infancy. In our case, DS is 3.5 and many people ask us when he's going to have his own bed/room. The boy isn't interested, and quite honestly, neither are we. We love sharing our bed with him, it's awesome. We absolutely love it.
Is the bedroom a sanctuary? Yes. it is a sanctuary of good, warm sleep where everyone is happy and gets lots and lots of rest. Is it the place where DH and I have sex? No, it isn't. Can we have sanctuaries for sex in other parts of the house? Yes. For us, the bed needn't be more than a sanctuary for sleep.
On Getting Outside
I don't know how extreme the snow is there, but it did snow in PA a fair bit, and I still took us out in it. Unless it was an out-and-out storm, we went out in cold, cold weather. A friend of mine lives in Alaska, and they also go outside every single day no matter what. Their son is currently 8 months old.
The safest way to have an infant out in extreme weather is baby-wearing. This helps maintain the child's body temperature and prevents issues with hypothermia and/or frost bite.
On cold days, we would put DS in woolies -- wool undergarments plus a wool hat, all made in finland -- and then wrapped him to my body (i was usually wearing my layers, but everything was close to my body/thin layers). Once he was wrapped to my body, I put on a BIG parka that I'd purchased at the salvation army. It cost $7 and it was 'way too large' but the benefit is that I could zip it around both of us. Then I also had a scarf, hat, and mittens for myself, plus the usual warm pants and layers there, plus my snow boots.
And away we go!
Being outside is just good for you. We would often walk for about 30-45 minutes this way. And, you get strong, too. It's amazing really.
So, don't let cold/snow put you off going outside. Just prepare for it. Take the baby out -- take yourself out. As you saw from your experience in warm weather, it makes a difference!
Since you know it works, definitely do it!
On HindMilk
If you are exclusively breast feeding and her poop is "seedy" and yellow (like mustard), then she's getting enough hind milk and she's getting enough fat. Usually when we pump, the fore milk is thin and it takes a fair bit of pumping to get the hind milk out. Particularly if you don't have a medical grade pump.
You can increase your fat intake, though, which can help her with a nutrient profile across the fat (fat soluble vitamins) and if you consume enough fat your body will be less likely to store it (as mine did. I was obviously not consuming enough fat.).
If she's eating food at this point, simply increase the fat content using butter or coconut oil. You might also start giving her small amounts of cod liver oil. DS's favorite breakfast starter is berries, raw (unpasturized) full fat yogurt, with cod liver oil. This has been his favorite morning food since he was about 11 months old. He asks for it "Gimme the cod, mom!" if I forget to put it on his yogurt/berries.
My sister's first son was just a terrible infant/early toddler and it reeked havoc on her marriage that they are still healing from, barely.
How was the infant terrible?
Man, these words are tough!
My guess is that his needs were specific and often difficult for the mother to meet without resentment building between the two parents. This means that the infant wasn't terrible, the adults were being intolerant of each other and the decisions that needed to be made to meet the infant's needs.
I would say that this happened in our household. DH and my dynamic changed, and then of course aspects of my whole way of being/behaving changed, and no one was expecting it. It affected DH a lot, and he didn't have a lot of mechanisms for coping. He went into counseling (and for aspects of it, I did too), and at the end of the day it worked out.
I think it's sad when infants get blamed for the choices that parents make.
and of course, Stella is right. :)
How was the infant terrible?
Man, these words are tough!
My guess is that his needs were specific and often difficult for the mother to meet without resentment building between the two parents. This means that the infant wasn't terrible, the adults were being intolerant of each other and the decisions that needed to be made to meet the infant's needs.
I would say that this happened in our household. DH and my dynamic changed, and then of course aspects of my whole way of being/behaving changed, and no one was expecting it. It affected DH a lot, and he didn't have a lot of mechanisms for coping. He went into counseling (and for aspects of it, I did too), and at the end of the day it worked out.
I think it's sad when infants get blamed for the choices that parents make.
No, no, no....
I was in between things this afternoon when I wrote that - I almost put an asterisk by it and put disclaimer below - I had a feeling it might get misinterpreted - or better yet, interpreted as written!
*of course child was not terrible
The situation was a big old poopy sandwich though.
And dear, dear nephew was NOT the root cause of their discord
The cruddy situation just brought my sis & BIL pre-existing issues to a head
most times I'm in a rush when I write these posts
And Kat - I'm sorry for projecting any of this on your post... 'the haven' thing just caught my eye
Wow! There is so much good stuff to comment on here!
First, I do not want my husband to be villainized in any way. He is a wonderful husband and a loving father. Just because he does not want us all sleeping together in the same room/bed does not mean that he does not care about me, our daughter, or our needs. He works very hard to provide for us and never complains. He comes straight home after work and takes the baby. He plays with her, feeds her, bathes her, etc. He is a very involved, hands-on dad. He loves his little girl and everything that she brings to his life. he is just crazy about her. We are together as a family every minute when we go to bed.
The reason that we keep our bedroom for ourselves is because it is easy to forget in the midst of all of this that we are romantic life partners. Our bedroom is the place that we talk and reconnect; it is where we dream and laugh and share our day. It is where he supports and encourages me as wife and mother, where he affirms what I am doing (and, I hope, where I affirm him as well). We know from experience that we need this; the decision we have made not to have kids in the bedroom was made as a means to preserve and protect our marriage because we believe that one of the best gifts we can give our children is a strong family foundation. I'm not suggesting that those who do decide to share a room or a bed with their kids can't have a great marriage. Of course they can! But for us, a little private space and a few moments together at the end of the day is something we need to nourish our relationship. It brings peace to our family and peace to our home. Our marriage suffers without it.
Does this mean I am opposed to sleeping in the baby's room? Nah. And I have a few times. ;-)
I don't feel as though my baby has caused chaos. My life is different now, but in a good way. It is full and wonderful, and I am learning to adjust to the challenges as I strive to meet my daughter's needs and be the best mother I can. I'm not doing this perfectly, but I am learning that it is okay to listen to my instincts and do what I think is best for her, not what my mother/her pediatrician/society thinks is best. Not that I don't value their input--I do! It helps me see things from a different perspective and gives me ideas of things to try I might not have considered. And I'm learning a lot in the way of grace.
stella--thanks for your sweet post. A lot of good encouragement there from someone who is a great mom! :-)
zoebird--Regarding the coconut milk...how do you incorporate that into a diet? It is already on my grocery list, but it looked a little solidified, not like oil oil...???
No, no, no....
I was in between things this afternoon when I wrote that - I almost put an asterisk by it and put disclaimer below - I had a feeling it might get misinterpreted
*of course child was not terrible
The situation was a big old poopy sandwich though.
And dear, dear nephew was NOT the root cause of their discord
The cruddy situation just brought my sis & BIL pre-existing issues to a head
most times I'm in a rush when I write these posts
I kind of assumed you meant there were some difficult circumstances and not that the child was terrible. :-)
and of course, Stella is right. :)
Of course! ;-)
I hope you didn't take my statements as villianizing you or your husband.
Instead, I would simply look at reconsidering the meaning of the bedroom, and perhaps asking the question of -- is it necessary for the bedroom to be this place, or can another place be that?
Obviously, what you state is important for *every* marriage. In our household, that all takes place in the "lounge." When the lounge and bedroom were separate, it was probably more private, but even so, the process still exists.
And this is only relevant IF your child's sleep needs require you to sleep together AND you choose to sleep in your bedroom (as a family) instead of your daughter's room.
mtnlaurel -- i figured. I also think that our language is important. it is practically ubiquitous that infants are characterized spoiled, manipulating little monsters whose needs should go unmet so that you, as the parent, don't get manipulated. It's sad.
I was mostly pointing out the fact that the idea that your DN was "terrible" was ludicrous, and that instead the situation was terrible, and that the new person brought the parent's dynamics to a head (as they did in my family).
My husband was also a good and devoted husband and father, but he lacked a lot of skills to cope and adapt. He went to counseling. It helped.
You know, my oldest is 24, the youngest 18. I vaguely remember the older two requiring a lot of nursing, pacifiers, holding. We co-slept some but I couldn't tell you how much or really for how long. I forget the particulars. There were some rough nights because eventually I needed them to sleep. Knowing me, I stressed way more than I should have.
Here's the thing. They turned out fine.
You have to find a solution that works for all of you including yourself. And it's not going to be perfect. You are going to do some things wrong. Sometimes you just won't know what to do. Sometimes, kids cry. And cry, and cry and cry.
If she is gaining weight and having a reasonable number of wet/poopy diapers (not too many, not too few) then she's ok nutrition wise. How does she respond to a pacifier? I would not have gotten through my oldest son's infancy without them. The instinct to suck is powerful. Some children feel it more than others, I guess.
I'm coming late to this thread, but want to add my voice to the mix. I have four children, not one of them had sleep/rest patterns like another EXCEPT that not one of them slept through the night (6 hours) until they were 9 months old. Added to that was a job, where I had to take call one week a month in the middle of the night for the two middle children. During that time I was so exhausted that I fell asleep in the dentist's chair and fell asleep as a tornado passed overhead.
I wanted to meet my infant's every need, but there was a point that I had to take care of my own needs first.
Baby #1. Stayed at home with him till he was 16 months, nursed him until he was 12 months. He had colic between 2-4 months--HELL. This child 11 years when child #2 born.
Baby #2. Back to work when she was 8 weeks old, pumped breast milk for the day care. She loved the sling, the bouncy seat, the swing, her dad. She was just the most agreeable baby. She slept in a basket next to the parental bed as long as I breast fed her. (She is a very stoic person, when she broke her arm at age four she did not cry a single tear. She is independant and strong minded--makes me proud.) This child 15 months when child #3 born.
Baby #3. Back to work when he was 8 weeks. He got RSV-a respiratory infection immediately-which gave him asthma problems for 11 years, but he has outgrown now. He breast fed and I pumped for day care until he was about 10 months. When he started solid food, he lost interest in breast. This child 2 yrs 9 months when child #4 was born.
Then, three miscarriages in one year, which I attribute to the above mentioned exhaustion.
Baby #4. Was a stay at home mom for 7 months after he was born. Breast fed till I went back to work.
Each of these kids was born into a different family situation, including what I knew as a mother and what family/community support I had. Each one of these kids is doing just fine today. Not one of them had their every desire met as infants or as children. If there is a warm house, enough food, a loving sober parent(s) and no gunfire in the neighborhood, all is well.
Childrearing theories are all well and good. For every theory, there will a be a child that DOES NOT FIT.
I am a practical person. Screw the theories. Do what works.
Listen to others, try it out, see what works.
And what above poster said, "This too shall pass."
(aside to Frugal Mighty--I am sooooo glad you had the family support and that you needed and you and beloved sons lived long enough to enjoy each other. My worst time was always when the pregnancy hormones kicked in, screwing up the thyroid hormones and making me deeply depressed and suicidal at about 6-8 weeks gestation. I would cry and remember if I could just keep taking the increased thyroid dose for a month or so, I would feel like living again. And now I am a pretty happy person.)
Hang in there KAT!!!
I don't think that someone stating that their bedroom is off limits to kids is unreasonable. But then, I am someone who wanted kids to be off limit to my entire life, ha ha!
OTOH the OP sleeping wherever with her daughter seems reasonable especially during a transition time. These babies are small for only a matter of months, and while I completely understand the exhaustion that lack of adult sleep brings and support caretakers doing whatever it takes to get needed sleep, changing out a sleep practice for a few weeks or months while babies adjust to their latest growth spurt or food issue or whatever, just seems reasonable to me.
I have to think that this only seems like a long time to the parents who are in the middle of it all, partially because they are sleep deprived. In my senior citizen world, months go by--wooosh!--like a matter of days.
In the tribe, the grandmas, who need less sleep then menstrating women, could spell the moms and take care of crying babies at night.
regarding coconut milk
Avoid it.
Go for coconut OIL. it's just the oil from the coconut, and has very little flavor. It's pretty much good for everything. If you are making purees, then just add some to it. if you are feeding her solids, then just melt some over it.
We also use coconut CREAM. this is different from coconut milk. Coconut milk is simply the water from the coconut plus a small amount of meat from teh coconut. Coconut CREAM is more coconut meat as well as the water, and also therefore has mroe coconut fat. Coconut cream is delicious in smoothies and could easily be pureed into pretty much anything.
there is also a difference between an infants and child's needs vs their desires.
needs must get met, or it can create mild to severe emotional/psychological problems. desires not so much. for the first year, possibly two, a child is mostly need and very few desires.
when they reach a desires stage, then, yes, absolutely begin to instruct them on how to handle their emotions about not getting what they want.
but prior to reaching this stage of development, needs must be met -- one way or another.
and of course, you have to find a way to meet those needs. which is why there are so many different methods. it's about what works for you, in your circumstance (the mother's needs also need to be met in order to meet the baby's needs in regards to the mother). if a mother looses sight of her own needs (or if the family does), it's heading towards collapse.
that being said, most people don't go that far. most find a solution before it gets that bad. even if it means another family member stepping in and asserting "this is what is going to happen now."
Thanks again, everyone, for jumping in and sharing your stories. The baby stage definitely has its challenges, but it brings with it a lot of joy. It really is going so fast, and I really want to enjoy this time with my daughter instead of being stressed out about things.
Anne Lee--she never did take to a pacifier. I guess in the long run that is a good thing since I won't have to break her of the habit later. ;-)
zoebird--thanks for the info on the coconut products. I meant to type oil in my post but see that I posted milk. I blame it on lack of sleep--haha! Anyway, I'd seen the coconut oil, but it looked more like Crisco and I wasn't sure how to use it. Now I know! :-) I got some yesterday. Thanks! :-)
P.S. "Gimme the cod, mom!" Ha. Too funny!
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