View Full Version : Do you pray?
winterberry
1-28-11, 3:20pm
How? Has it worked for you? Any suggestions for readings on the topic?
I would suggest Richard Foster Celebration of Discipline. It has a chapter on Prayer and a different chapter on Meditation.
If you're more buddhist-leaning--The Energy of Prayer by Thich Nhat Hanh.
But, why not just start praying? Just talk to God (or your Higher Power, whoever/whatever that may be)
In my mind, prayer is not to get what I want (like "please help me get this job"), but it's to open myself to God.
Yep. Works well. As Catherine said, I don't view God as Santa Claus but as opening myself (and on behalf of others) to Something Beautiful that is always there. My best reading suggestion? Joel Goldsmith's Infinite Way.
I pray all the time - after all, no one knows me better than God. I feel His presence in everything I do, every day of my life.
No.
If there isn't a Supreme Being, you are wasting your breath.
And if there is a Supreme Being, we have either been endowed with free will, or not.
If we have free will, then any sort of Supreme Being doesn't interfere in the day to day affairs of the universe, so there would be no point to prayer.
If we don't have free will, then similarly, there isn't a point to prayer, you are just a puppet to destiny.
Two hands working do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.
Although, regardless of whether or not there is a god, gods, or whatever, I am sure there are benefits to prayer, meditation, etc. I can't imagine talking through your problems and grasping on to some hope would be a bad thing.
Yes, I pray. The reason I pray isn't to change a situation, but to change me and my reaction to a situation.
goldensmom
1-28-11, 7:21pm
Yes, I pray. Yes, it works. Best readings I have found on prayer are in the Bible. Google 'bible prayers' and you can find lists of all the prayers in the bible. My favorite is Psalm 51.
I believe that having a close relationship with God truly makes us multi-dimensional beings. We aren't just flesh and blood - there is more. Even more than just having a soul. God has given me "insight" that I never had before Him. My grandmother experienced it, my mom experiences it, I experience it and I am just starting to see glimpses of my daughter experiencing it (although she doesn't realize it yet *s*).
Before my daughter had her baby I dreamt she and her son died during labour. I didn't leave the hospital when she went into labour because I needed to be there and pray for her. There was no throwing myself on my knees and clasping my hands as I searched the sky - it was just silent prayer in my head. No one knew about my dream and no one knew why I refused to leave. Her pregnancy had been a perfectly healthy one, but God told me I had to be there during her labour.
Complications set in and she and her son got a very rare infection. Her baby was put on antibiotics (but even with them, his chances of dying were extremely high). My daughter wasn't put on any medication. They were in NICU for 10 days. After they were released and she saw her regular doctor he told her that after he had looked at the reports from the doctors and hospital, he couldn't figure out why she was alive. He said the antibiotics saved her son, but the doctor at the hospital had neglected to put her on anything to fight her infection. Her doctor had no explanation for why she didn't die. All he could say is that sometimes there are powers at work beyond what we can see or explain.
Did God save my daughter's life? - sure did. Did God tell me to be there for her? - sure did. Will I keep praying/talking to God throughout my day? - sure will. Do I understand why some things happen the way they do? - No, but I won't let that shake my faith.
I pray all the time. I especially enjoy praying as I work. Sometimes I just talk to God, sometimes I just listen, sometimes I pray the rosary, sometimes I pray another memorized prayer (like our table grace, for example), sometimes I do an examination of conscience, sometimes I listen to a prayer podcast. The Pray as You Go podcast is my favourite. I try to offer up my work in love. I have as many ways of praying as I have reasons to pray.
I've said this before, but when things have gotten hard and I've least understood why things were the way they were (victim of violent crime, miscarriages, suicide attempts, etc.) prayer has been the most beneficial. At least I wasn't alone in my pain and my brokenness. It's amazing how much that can mean in those situations.
I pray often - morning prayers, table grace, and just plain old talking to God throughout the day. I often give thanks. Hattie and Stella really said it all.
No.
If there isn't a Supreme Being, you are wasting your breath.
And if there is a Supreme Being, we have either been endowed with free will, or not.
If we have free will, then any sort of Supreme Being doesn't interfere in the day to day affairs of the universe, so there would be no point to prayer.
If we don't have free will, then similarly, there isn't a point to prayer, you are just a puppet to destiny.
Your response, bae, assumes that we who pray are looking to change something external, which is not the case. I can assure you, I do not feel I am "wasting my breath," nor am I abdicating my free will in any way.
I'm afraid it would be difficult to explain the effects of prayer to someone who does not believe in its benefits--kind of like trying to describe color to a person who was blind from birth.
But I know a lot of people feel the way you do.
flowerseverywhere
1-29-11, 11:07am
I do not pray. I don't believe in any supreme being.
It took a long time for me to go from a strict Roman Catholic upbringing to atheist. The journey included a lot of reading and reflection. I just cannot sort out in my head all of the oppression and hate that has come from religious beliefs. Any reading of history includes people believing that their god somehow is better or more true than another persons and gives them reason to commit horrific crimes of hate. I cannot justify the sexual abuse that was hidden and excused by the Roman Catholic church. Or the Protestant-Catholic battles in Ireland or the Palestine-Israeli war or the oppression of women in the middle east or the televangelists that take good peoples money for their own profit. All in the name of god. It honestly disgusts me.
Dharma Bum
1-29-11, 11:52am
assumes that we who pray are looking to change something external
If the change you seek is internal, there are ways to do that, meditation or reflection, that don't require a real or imaginary recipient or participant. If you want to access a supernatural vending machine, prayer would be your path. Among prayer, meditation, or reflection, it would seem to be a valid distinction that prayer at least assumes there is something external to which you can pray, even if the change is only internal.
Dharma bum, just because there are ways of making internal changes that don't involve an external force doesn't mean that prayer is useless or inferior. Talking things out with a good friend, for example, is a way of working on internal changes that involves a second party, but it's not "accessing a vending machine" it's developing a relationship and getting perspective you yourself may not have.
Dharma Bum
1-29-11, 1:49pm
I'm sure different things work for different people and that's great. Just trying to be a bit more precise with the nomenclature. As with your example, talking with a friend is one thing, talking with an imaginary friend is another. With your friend, it's properly considered talking and a relationship. But as for talking with an imaginary friend, I'd say it is something different regardless of the format you use in your head as it is in reality a solitary activity.
If the change you seek is internal, there are ways to do that, meditation or reflection, that don't require a real or imaginary recipient or participant. If you want to access a supernatural vending machine, prayer would be your path. Among prayer, meditation, or reflection, it would seem to be a valid distinction that prayer at least assumes there is something external to which you can pray, even if the change is only internal.
I see what you're saying. There are many people who might pray to that supernatural vending machine, or at least to an image of Old Guy/Long Beard/Sitting On A Cloud. But not all of us do. Some of us are praying to the God Within. What about centering prayer, or contemplative prayer? Those types of praying are definitely inward journeys.
If we are inseparable from the Divine Force (or God, or Higher Power, or whatever you want to call "it") because of our Oneness of Being, praying to that Force is an inside job, IMHO.
I pray all the time. I especially enjoy praying as I work. Sometimes I just talk to God, sometimes I just listen, sometimes I pray the rosary, sometimes I pray another memorized prayer (like our table grace, for example), sometimes I do an examination of conscience, sometimes I listen to a prayer podcast. The Pray as You Go podcast is my favourite. I try to offer up my work in love. I have as many ways of praying as I have reasons to pray.
I've said this before, but when things have gotten hard and I've least understood why things were the way they were (victim of violent crime, miscarriages, suicide attempts, etc.) prayer has been the most beneficial. At least I wasn't alone in my pain and my brokenness. It's amazing how much that can mean in those situations.
Thank you, Stella, for this beautiful post. You are a beautiful inspirition.
Dharma Bum
1-29-11, 2:30pm
Did God save my daughter's life? - sure did. .
I'm glad you're daughter is ok but this kind of thinking is so fraught with so many fallacies it would hijack this thread too much to address them.
So here's your prayer koan for the the day: why doesn't god ever cure amputees?
I mutter constantly to myself. Does that count? I am my own higher being?
.... Any reading of history includes people believing that their god somehow is better or more true than another persons ...
yup, including the god of Science. So many ugly things being done in the name of Science, past and present.
Humans will use any justification to do what they wish to do, religion doesn't have a corner on that market.
I don't see anything wrong with praying. You may be communicating with God, the universe, a collective consciousness, or your own subconscious, and the energy of that communication may very well bear fruit. I talk to myself/the universe all the time. I'd like to think it helps.
And I couldn't agree with you more, Iris Lily, about science. It's misused every day in the name of greed and ego, so it's hardly a stout peg to hang your belief system on.
When I played HS football and scored a touchdown I always thanked God in the Endzone!! I even attended church with my first GF for pretty obvious reasons.:|( I still play like I am praying when I go visit my elderly Mom and my MIL at Christmas and Thanksgiving. It is much easier than not.
It has only been since I retired that I just quit "playing like" and admit to not being religious to my family and friends and then only if they ask. I view religion as something to merely to control the masses.
Peace
So here's your prayer koan for the the day: why doesn't god ever cure amputees?
I also said: "Do I understand why some things happen the way they do? - No, but I won't let that shake my faith."
flowerseverywhere: I am sorry you had such bad experiences with Churches. I actually don't attend Church because I have also had some not-so-great experiences. My spirituality and beliefs come from within and I don't need to go to a special building to confirm that. I agree with Catherine: "If we are inseparable from the Divine Force (or God, or Higher Power, or whatever you want to call "it") because of our Oneness of Being, praying to that Force is an inside job, IMHO."
rosarugosa
1-29-11, 6:57pm
Nope!
Not any longer.
I grew up attending church, believing and praying till I was in my late 20's, early 30's. Then slowly I reached my own understanding of God and religion and belief ... or I guess I should say 'non belief'.
I have never noticed any difference in my life or anything about my surroundings - or anything- whether I prayed or not.
I am however far happier and free since I became a non-believer. :)
winterberry
1-29-11, 10:21pm
So many interesting responses, I hardly know where to begin.
I have been pretty much everywhere along the prayer/belief spectrum (but not the far right) and can relate to most of the experiences here.
I had done centering prayer very regularly for several years, then gradually lapsed when my life got too busy and difficult. I missed it, and I know that when I had been doing the centering prayer regularly I was tapping into something powerful, and a source of peace. So recently I had resumed my daily practice.
I also belong to a prayer group that meets every month or two. We are Quakers and have reservations about praying with words, I guess. We prefer to say that we are "holding someone in the Light," which is comfortably vague. When we meet we sit in silence and just name people who are in need of prayer, holding them in the Light, each according to our own understanding of what that means. Then we share specific needs of people in need of prayer and continue to pray for them at home.
Then last week my granddaughter was admitted to the hospital with a very high fever and a very high white blood count. I sent out an email to my prayer group, and I prayed a lot. Sometimes I let God have a piece of my mind -- I know he/she can take it. I believe God is all compassion.
I don't know how much it helps to pray, but I do believe that everything is interconnected, including our thoughts. Anything we say or do can have far reaching implications. The morning after my granddaughter was admitted I read something that said that all that is necessary for a spiritually enlightened being to bring healing and harmony to a situation is for them to direct their attention to the problem. But the attention has to be detached, with no desire for any particular outcome. I am not enlightened, and even if I were, I don't see how I could have directed my attention toward my granddaughter without caring about what would happen to her. So I was troubled by that paradox, and that led me to ask the question that started this thread. I still don't know how to pray. Also, since I think thoughts are powerful, I have guilt associated with worry. I shouldn't worry, but how can I not?
Anyway, I'm happy to say that my granddaughter was discharged from the hospital today, and is doing well. She doesn't have the life threatening illness that I had feared. Perhaps the prayers helped. I'm sure they didn't hurt. What else could I have done?
Winterberry, I am so happy to hear your granddaughter is doing well. *S*
I'm sure different things work for different people and that's great. Just trying to be a bit more precise with the nomenclature. As with your example, talking with a friend is one thing, talking with an imaginary friend is another. With your friend, it's properly considered talking and a relationship. But as for talking with an imaginary friend, I'd say it is something different regardless of the format you use in your head as it is in reality a solitary activity.
You can no more definitively prove that it is "in reality a solitary activity" than I can prove it is not. Your thoughts are not more precise than those who disagree with you.
Dharma Bum
1-30-11, 7:12am
You can no more definitively prove that it is "in reality a solitary activity" than I can prove it is not. Your thoughts are not more precise than those who disagree with you.
I was was going to make the typical point about the burden being on those who make supernatural claims but actually that seems too lenient.
What do you think when you hear about the mother who kills all her kids and then props them up at the dinner table when she says God told her to do it? Do you think "well, I can't prove God didn't say that so her thoughts are as precise as mine?"
Or the lady who just strangled and burned her newphew's dog because it chewed on a bible and God told her to do it.
Or the man killing gays because God told him to.
We humor the notion of divine conversation when it doesn't actually matter or produces quaint comfort for the recipient. Kind of a no harm, no foul free pass on the abdication of reason. And in some ways it's fine that some people find comfort in those thoughts, but the validity of those claims is no more or less verifiable than those of the people I've listed above. Fortunately, at the end of the day, for most people any way, reason prevails and the idea that people are really communicating with God is too much of stretch when it actually matters.
You're conflating schizophrenia, lame excuses, and a belief that there is more in the universe than what we can see and touch. With physicists postulating multiple dimensions and universes, I'm comfortable believing that we are far from understanding All That Is. I'm not religious; I'm neither a true believer or a non-believer, but I am confident we see just the tip of the iceberg from our human vantage point. "Science" brought us phrenology and the Food Pyramid, so it's always a good idea to keep an open mind.
"Science" brought us phrenology and the Food Pyramid, so it's always a good idea to keep an open mind.
Yes, but "Science" continually questioning and testing has also discounted both of them. Science (as practiced by human scientists) is not a flawless, straight-line path to ultimate truth, but it's better than anything else we have.
People can believe whatever they wish as long as it doesn't harm others - that harm includes mixing religion with politics in order to control everyone.
Faith is believing in the absence of proof. The same can be said of non-believing. :)
To be honest Dharma Bum, I believe those people have a mental imbalance, the same as many athiests, agnostics and people of other faiths have had that has caused them to do something horrible and blame it on someone else. Happens all the time.
Who places "the burden of proof" on anyone? You? Are you under the impression that people need permission to pray?
The scientific method is a beautiful thing, and you're right--when it's practiced properly, hypotheses are tested over and over again until they can be considered laws. And we are getting better at deductive reasoning so that we can postulate the existence of planets just by observing minute changes in gravitational pull, for example. Perhaps one day we'll be able to do the same with some kind of God force or cosmic consciousness.
I don't for a minute believe in a rigid, linear, completely predictable universe. Nobel prize winners Kary Mullis and Francis Crick are said to have come up with PCR and DNA science with the direct help of visions fueled by LSD. Countless writers and composers speak of the music and words "coming through them," but not of them. A theory of interconnectedness, in which far-flung and apparently unrelated photons are seen to communicate over distance is being studied. Sometimes I think that shamans who pursue vision quests are far more tuned in to the big picture than the average scientist. But as you say, science is all we have. Or so we believe.
Dharma Bum
1-30-11, 6:01pm
Who places "the burden of proof" on anyone?
Life does. And while you started with your claim that "you can no more definitively prove that it is "in reality a solitary activity" than I can prove it is not", I would say in turn you can't "prove" whether god told those people to act that way or not. Yet we still draw our own conclusions:
I believe those people have a mental imbalance
I agree with yours.
Take another example of a child with a ruptured appendix. Doctors (of Jane's ill-reputed world of science) can operate and very very likely save the child, but of course any surgery involves some risk. But if someone says they prayed and spoke to God and God says don't operate and he/she/it will save the child, what do you do? To my point, no harm in praying for a sick child. But as to forgoing a likely medical cure, well, do you really believe someone can commune with God? If so, the proper path would of course be to do what the ultimate power in the universe says to do. But IMHO that would be a mistake, and I think, when there are actual stakes, most people agree.
As far as schizophrenia and mental imbalance, there are plenty of otherwise seeming mentally healthy people who, for example withhold medical treatment from ill children. They have no other discernible deficit other than they actually act on the beliefs posited here and put lives at stake by doing so. And others may act affirmatively on those same voices from God and are assumed to be mentally ill. I wonder what that says about oh, say, Abraham, who is adulated for acting in exactly the same way as those people you say are mentally imbalanced.
"Life does."
Really? Who is "life" to be such an authority figure as to demand proof of a belief? Where would I find this "life" and how would I offer "life" proof of my beliefs? sorry Dharma Bum, but "life" is sounding an awful lot like your imaginary friend. :)
"Burden of proof" is a legal term. It implies that there is an authority to whom proof can, should or must be submitted. "Life" is no such authority figure and the laws of our country do not place any such burden on its citizens. Quite the opposite. People are free to pray or not pray.
You are not owed an explanation of why someone does or does not feel compelled to pray. The OP asked if you pray. You don't. Good deal. That hardly seems like an invitation to sling mud at those who do.
And let's thank God for Ignaz Semmelweis, who was practically martyred for daring to suggest doctors wash their hands between patients. Science, when practiced properly, is a good thing. On the other hand, we have Monsanto.
Neither the Old Testament anthropomorph nor science is a god to me.
And let's thank God for Ignaz Semmelweis, who was practically martyred for daring to suggest doctors wash their hands between patients. Science, when practiced properly, is a good thing. On the other hand, we have Monsanto.
Neither the Old Testament anthropomorph nor science is a god to me.
But when I'm running around non-stop in the spring trying to get everything weeded and cleaned up on all of my various city plots, I bow down to the god that slays my dragons, glyphosate. Thank you Monsanto.
A theory of interconnectedness, in which far-flung and apparently unrelated photons are seen to communicate over distance is being studied.
Aren't the photons that you refer to quantum entangled? That's no more "communication" than if I hand you a box, and keep one myself, telling you I put a red ball in one, and a black in the other, and that, 10 weeks from now, when you are in orbit around Mars, you are to open your box, and if it's red, land, if black, return home. There's really no spukhafte Fernwirkung if you look at the whole protocol.
It *is* information, and you can use it to design protocols, say for cyptosystem key distribution that is resistant to interception... But you aren't *really* communicating instantly between two unconnected entities.
Dharma Bum
1-30-11, 7:25pm
"Burden of proof" is a legal term. It implies that there is an authority to whom proof can, should or must be submitted. "Life" is no such authority figure and the laws of our country do not place any such burden on its citizens. Quite the opposite. People are free to pray or not pray.
Each one of us individually serves as this authority and we as a society do so collectively all the time. As for freedom to pray, people should be free to do whatever whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting others. You can pray thinking it is actually tapping into the Matrix or a way to contact Kazoo on the Flintsones. Personally I don't care. But your contention that all positions are equal just because they can't be proven is wrong- you can't equate fantasy with reason. You can't "prove" evolution or creationism, but they are not intellectually equivalent.
Indeed. Naively perhaps, I believe there's more spookiness at work than we can imagine. And because we can't imagine it, we can't create tools to measure, explain, or even see it. I believe that science, like art, benefits most from flights of fancy. All the plodding along is useful, but it's the fever dream inspirations that really deliver. But then, I've always been non-linear.
I have to say, Dharma Bum's medical analogy made me laugh, because if there's any prayer that crosses my lips on a regular basis, it's something like "And keep me out of the clutches of doctors!"
I do not believe in any Supernatural power or force in the universe, but I pray. I don't know why. It helps me surrender to fate. It gives me perspective and focus. I never pray for anything that is outside of the realm of possiblity. IE - my grandpa is having surgery. I pray the surgeon gets enough sleep the night before. Things like that.
No.
If there isn't a Supreme Being, you are wasting your breath.
And if there is a Supreme Being, we have either been endowed with free will, or not.
If we have free will, then any sort of Supreme Being doesn't interfere in the day to day affairs of the universe, so there would be no point to prayer.
If we don't have free will, then similarly, there isn't a point to prayer, you are just a puppet to destiny.
There are no conflicts with reality. When you believe you have encountered a onflict with reality, revisit your critical assumptions. It is there you will find your error.
All credit due to Ayn Rand, whom acknowledged spirituality, and denounced altruism.
Prayer is openly defined as life. It's more than unfair to exhaust one's despair and caustic emotions upon the unknown, when directed only at others.
All credit due to Ayn Rand, ....
It is very handy to make up your own meanings of words, so as to make communication and discussion impossible.
When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."
"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."
"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master - that's all."
Each one of us individually serves as this authority and we as a society do so collectively all the time. As for freedom to pray, people should be free to do whatever whatever they want as long as they aren't hurting others. You can pray thinking it is actually tapping into the Matrix or a way to contact Kazoo on the Flintsones. Personally I don't care. But your contention that all positions are equal just because they can't be proven is wrong- you can't equate fantasy with reason. You can't "prove" evolution or creationism, but they are not intellectually equivalent.
They are intellectually equivalent in that they are both unprovable.
The individual is the source of authority. If I believe biblical scholars over others that disagree with them, I authorize them. If I believe in the infallibility of a chemical process that measures the age of rocks, I decide. If I believe that the number of people that believe in a given ideology or world view is the best indicator of truth, I confer authority. Without the transfer of authority or the abdication thereof, there is, ultimately, no greater authority beyond oneself. Just because many may give authority to one person or entity, it doesn't have the power to create a higher authority than the individual. Although it may have the temporary power of force, it has no authority.
Reason is a process to elicit provisional truth. It was once reasonable to posit that the world was flat. Now it is reasoned to be round. Socrates was not being humble, figurative or dramatic when he stated that, "I only know the fact of my own ignorance".
Because we as a people move from one perception of reality to another there is a tendency of some to mock others who don't conform with the current paradigm or reality. Attaching to current perception is no more valid that attaching to old or new ones.
As for science, my experience is that it is as fraught with dogmatism as is religion. Additionally, since the advent of Quantum Physics the line between observer and observed is now blurred; the outcomes of what was thought to be "hard" science is now not so hard. Yes, this is one paradigm. Is it the truth? Not for me. It's just a more interesting place to be for the moment.
winterberry
2-1-11, 2:42am
Winterberry, I am so happy to hear your granddaughter is doing well. *S*
Thanks, Hattie. You know, when my daughter was having her twins about a year ago they were all at risk. The twins were 5 weeks early and my daughter was eclamptic. Very scary. I learned later that her husband at the time was thinking, "How will I raise two babies by myself?" They were in Utah and I was in Pennsylvania (as we still are), so there was nothing I could do but pray. Of course, my prayer group was praying along with me.
I liked your story, too.
Aren't the photons that you refer to quantum entangled? That's no more "communication" than if I hand you a box, and keep one myself, telling you I put a red ball in one, and a black in the other, and that, 10 weeks from now, when you are in orbit around Mars, you are to open your box, and if it's red, land, if black, return home. There's really no spukhafte Fernwirkung if you look at the whole protocol.
It *is* information, and you can use it to design protocols, say for cyptosystem key distribution that is resistant to interception... But you aren't *really* communicating instantly between two unconnected entities.
So then, what is the content of communication? Isn't it information?
If you tell me there is a storm coming, I may delay my trip to wherever. I used the information that you communicated to me. So the transfer of information that is useful could be said to be communication..right?
So then, what is the content of communication?
The word "communication" was quoted to refer to the phrase in the post I was responding to, which was claiming communication-at-a-distance.
Read it in the context of the thread.
I pray daily. It is an important part of my life. It is like meditation for me. It keeps me grounded and calm. I always feel God all around me.... it is comforting.
Yes I pray. To my Heavenly Father, who I believe hears and answers my prayers - well the one's that are for my best interest. Most of the time I don't fully understand, until after the fact and then I see His guidence in my life.
I believe when faced with a dilemia - I need to first study it out in your mind, come to a decision and ask for a confirmation of my decision. Now that is the hard part, being open to the inspiration given and being willing to act on that inspiration (answer you get). How do those answers come? Usually a calm feeling, and peace that you have made the right decision. The more you open yourself to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, the more you will recognize these feelings.
When you did not get a confirmation - you will still not be at ease with your decision. Prayers will not erase all our trials in life -as those experiences are part of our life's experiences. But we will be given the strength to endure those trials.
I also believe God has granted us all free agency. And while we may pray for another, that person always will have their free agency to make their own decisions - whether good or bad.
I like the concept of praying to know what to pray for. That seemed a bit weird when I first heard it - but now I understand it better. We need to pray and be inspired to what we need to pray about. Sometimes in life we are so busy doing this and that we need to be inspired to know where to focus our lives. Sort of can't see the forest through the trees idea.
winterberry
2-2-11, 10:42pm
Thanks, Greg. Yes, there is a calm and peace that comes when we get out of the way and let the Spirit lead. But it seems that when things are at their worst, when I need to do that the most, I am least able to do it. Probably because I don't do it enough when things are OK.
Stella, what you said reminded me of Brother Lawrence. He wrote Practicing the Presence of God. Have you read it? He said that his time of work was no different than his time of prayer.
Catherine and CrystalAdmin, thanks for the reading suggestions. I have the Thich Nhat Hanh book. Read it a long time ago. I am going to reread it. At our last prayer group meeting someone read a passage from Richard Foster that was inspiring. I think I have one of his books, too. And I am going to find a copy of the Joel Goldsmith book. I like the title.
I haven't read this entire thread yet but want to say that I do pray to God. Sometimes it feels as though every breath is a prayer, an acknoledgement that God is the creator.
Prayer time grounds me and helps me put things in order. I've only heard an audible answer once and it was just my name said once but it was full of love and comfort at a time when I was feeling the weight of my sin.
winterberry
2-3-11, 10:39pm
Float on, my mother, who is very down to earth and wouldn't make things up, once heard a voice say "trust me" when she was feeling desperate.
Since it's Sunday, here's a little talk on Prayer by one of my favorite spiritual teachers, the Indian Jesuit priest Anthony de Mello. This is just part 1 of the talk--if you find you like it, parts 2, 3, and 4 are also available on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vmTSdxxnTw
ETA: Just watched another Anthony de Mellow YouTube: Love it! "Thomas Carlyle once said 'The great tragedy in life is not in how much we suffer, but in how much we miss."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUfBHoVNkok&feature=related
Since I'm in a relationship with Christ, we talk a lot. Like any other relationship I have I believe communication is key. So we talk, some times all I have to say is "Thank you" or 'I'm sorry" but the lines are open, and like other relationships I feel much better after we've dicussed whatever is on our minds.
To one without faith, prayer seems the most foolish thing man can do. To one with faith, it seems the wisest.
Dharma Bum
2-7-11, 11:00pm
They are intellectually equivalent in that they are both unprovable.
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I've been trying to get my head around this for days. So in your world someone's belief that god told them to kill gays because he hates them is equivalent to the use of radiometric dating and genetics?
Dharma, you are painting with a pretty broad brush, equating all believers in prayer with the delusional actions of people who are dangerously mentally ill.
I suspect you would say that the difference between someone who prays and someone who kills on the orders of God is only in degree while I would say that the difference is in kind. People who pray know the difference between the spiritual (or as you would say "the imaginary") and the physical realms. Delusional schizophrenics do not. As far as prayer causing a mentally healthy person to become delusional, well - unless extreme fasting and dehydration is involved (as in the Lakota Sundance) - that's just nonsense. It goes against everything we know about mental illness.
As I stated above, to someone without faith, prayer is folly. There is no explaining it rationally, which is what irritates and on occasion enrages - perhaps frightens - SOME people. Without cause, I might add.
As I stated above, to someone without faith, prayer is folly. There is no explaining it rationally, which is what irritates and on occasion enrages - perhaps frightens - people. Without cause, I might add.
'Irritates', 'enrages', 'frightens'? Actually most people who have figured it out no longer much care what goes on in the minds of the overtly religious. ;)
I should have said some people.
You've never heard someone say about a person of faith "These people SCARE me."?
Geeze, I've had. As if I was about to take a machine gun and start mowing down the "unwashed" on orders from God.
winterberry
2-8-11, 2:13pm
Since it's Sunday, here's a little talk on Prayer by one of my favorite spiritual teachers, the Indian Jesuit priest Anthony de Mello. This is just part 1 of the talk--if you find you like it, parts 2, 3, and 4 are also available on YouTube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vmTSdxxnTw
ETA: Just watched another Anthony de Mellow YouTube: Love it! "Thomas Carlyle once said 'The great tragedy in life is not in how much we suffer, but in how much we miss."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUfBHoVNkok&feature=related
Catherine, these were wonderful! Thanks
I should have said some people.
You've never heard someone say about a person of faith "These people SCARE me."?
Geeze, I've had. As if I was about to take a machine gun and start mowing down the "unwashed" on orders from God.
Not literally scared in the sense of your machine gun example (Wasn't that sort of behavior already dismissed as mentally ill earlier in this thread?), but rather in the sense of people who are unable to think on their own without having to rely on external guidance is scary (sad). 'Scare' is one of those commonly used words with many shades of meaning.
In another sense they are indeed scary when they try to impose their religious beliefs on everyone else via the political process. Freedom of religion also means freedom from religion, but too many have forgotten that.
I've had discussions with Christians about homosexuality for example. Many think it's a sin (choice), and simply can't get past that belief because if they do, they are going against their own religion and perhaps sinning themselves to even consider it's not a sin. How can you have an open discussion with someone who simply is -by nature of their entrenched beliefs- close-minded? You can't, hence many Christians are dismissed out of hand in some circles. And then there is evolution, fossils, and the natural sciences...
I've actually heard a Christian say: "They hate us because they know we are right." Talk about being totally off-base. :|(
sugarbowlbaby
2-8-11, 3:37pm
Recently I've started to live my life in constant prayer. It doesn't come easy for me so this has been a struggle, but I do find that if I'm "with God" throughout my day, I generally have a better day.
I've just treated myself to Karen Armstrong's "Twelve Steps to a Compassionate Life". Prayer for me is an active endeavour - it's as important to me to be still, meditating, as it is to how I go about my day to day life and most importantly how I interact with all life be it human, animal or vegetable. If you have not heard of Karen Armstrong I would recommend her talk on TED see link below
http://www.ted.com/talks/karen_armstrong_makes_her_ted_prize_wish_the_chart er_for_compassion.html
I also enjoy the writings of Henri Nouwen and John O'Donoghue
As far as prayer causing a mentally healthy person to become delusional, well - unless extreme fasting and dehydration is involved (as in the Lakota Sundance) - that's just nonsense.
I've said I have no problem with praying to whatever you want. Can't say I agree with it but it's none of my business. And I do think a lot of what passes as "prayer" is really a more benign activity couched in religious garb because that's the societal paradigm, but that's up to each person to figure out what works for them on a personal level.
Where I do think it's damaging is when people say things like fantastical beliefs are equivalent to scientific explanations. That IMHO weakens public discourse and leads to actual harm to society.
What I find entertaining is the attempt to distinguish among people who converse with god based on the content of their "conversation". People who hear a message from god you approve of are fine, but if you don't approve of the message they get, well, those people are delusional?
Edit: Someone responded to something I said above, then seems to have deleted their message. So I'll delete my response to that since it no longer makes sense.... ;)
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Refdesk.com's Thought of the Day:
"The belief that there is only one truth and that oneself is in possession of it seems to me the deepest root of all evil that is in the world." - Max Born
I don't know how anyone--on either side of this question--can look around at this awesome, endlessly complex universe and think they have all the answers. Or maybe even any of the answers.
And I would posit that we all pray one way or another, whether we think we're talking to the Man Upstairs or just to ourselves--even if it's sending "Don't change! Don't change! messages to a traffic light. Whether we connect to a universal energy grid that way or not has yet to be proven. Maybe we'll have to wait for the Theory of Everything to find out.
Per Wikipedia: "Stephen Hawking wrote in A Brief History of Time that even if we had a TOE, it would necessarily be a set of equations. He wrote, “What is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe?”. Couldn't have said it better myself.
http://www.atheistcartoons.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/the_power_of_prayer4.jpg
The guy in your cartoon needs to talk to Pat Robertson. I caught a bit on his 700 Club once (don't ask) where he was getting a "word of knowledge," presumably from God, that someone in Texas was growing back a lost ear. Anyone you know? :devil:
Perhaps starfish and lizards have a clearer connection to the divine...
I've been trying to get my head around this for days. So in your world someone's belief that god told them to kill gays because he hates them is equivalent to the use of radiometric dating and genetics?
I've been trying to get my head around this for days. So in your world someone's belief that god told them to kill gays because he hates them is equivalent to the use of radiometric dating and genetics?
Equivalent in what way? I'd say that a scientist probably believes in his radiometric dating as much as the person who hears from a hateful God. It might be demonstrated at some point in the future that radiometric dating is deceiving, not unlike the way genetic determinism of disease has been debunked. One day the person who believes that God talks to him may realize that what he hears in his head is actually the voice of someone from his childhood. In this way they might both be equally wrong.
Would you say that a group of scientists that believe in the science of inferior races, who go on to participate in the extinction of a race, are equal to a man who listens to God and frees India using Non-violence?
This may not be an exact parallel to your question but what I'm trying to point out is that science is not superior to spirituality (and vice-versa). What any individual believes is always self-serving. At the end of the day, I'm not sure there are any inferior beliefs except maybe the one that says, "I'm better than those idiots who believe in that crap".
IMO, mortal man can only ascertain relative truths: those which eventually move. Sometimes the perception is individual and short lived, and in other cases it is shared by millions and long lasting. The latter seems to be case which makes some people want to shove religion or science down other people's throats.
I remember hearing a good story in Buddhism years ago in which Mara (the equivalent of Satan) is walking along with one of his henchmen. They see a man walking along who finds a piece of the truth on the ground. Mara says, "good". His henchman is confused and asks, "why is that good?" And Mara replies that he'll make a belief out of it.
The scientist may protest by saying that what he does is repeatable therefore it is truth, not belief. I would argue that what he does is truth also, but that what he says about it, or how he interprets it, is not truth...ever.
Perhaps starfish and lizards have a clearer connection to the divine...
Does that make my cats faith healers? ;)
Perhaps imperfect ones however since I've never seen a lizard regenerate an arm or leg, just their tails.
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