Too much information to swallow--help!!

[HappyHiker]

So I've recently read Wheat Belly and was firmly convinced I had to turn my back on wheat and gluten in order to have optimal health. But tonight I watched Forks Over Knives and now I'm convinced I have to give up meat and dairy and eat a vegan plant-centered diet...no mention was made of wheat at all in that fascinating documentary.

So which is it? No gluten/wheat or wheat/gluten and eschew meat/dairy and eat whole grains and not worry about the wheat gluten?

And must I give up my favorite food of all time--salmon? FOK tells me no eggs, no fish, no poultry, no animal products including cheese (even yogurt!)

I'm so confused..I'm going outside and eat worms... oh never mind, that's an animal protein, isn't it?

[iris lily]

Do you have actual health problems?

It seems to me that moderation is the way to go. Eat a little meat, but mostly veg. If gluten doesn't bother you, don't sweat it, but don't eat tons of it.

[CathyA]

I agree. If you have no frank symptoms, moderation is the key.

[JaneV2.0]

My method is to read, study, then experiment to find out what works best for my particular genetic set. I've done plenty of experimenting, including years of vegetarian eating. (I seem to be a slow learner.) In the end, what works best for me is controlled-carb eating.

[ApatheticNoMore]

So I've recently read Wheat Belly and was firmly convinced I had to turn my back on wheat and gluten in order to have optimal health. But tonight I watched Forks Over Knives and now I'm convinced I have to give up meat and dairy and eat a vegan plant-centered diet...no mention was made of wheat at all in that fascinating documentary.

So which is it? No gluten/wheat or wheat/gluten and eschew meat/dairy and eat whole grains and not worry about the wheat gluten

I don't think Wheat Belly is really the most reliable book on the subject, but avoid wheat is widespread Paleo advice which usually have some arguments like most people to some degree biologically react to wheat, they seem decently argued to me. I try to stay away from it, if I have carbs I try to have rice and potatoes, but the honest truth is I'm not good at diets of any sort! I cheat on them, they seem utterly incompatible with my nature. Though my digestion is better when I avoid wheat, I think it is a better diet for me.

From a Paleo and Weston Price type perspective whole grains are worse than refined ones. The Price folks would say they just need soaking, but the point is they have more hard to digest proteins than refined grains, even if they are slightly lower glycemic (better ways to achieve lower glycemic probably - eat with fat and/or protein, eat less of them)


And must I give up my favorite food of all time--salmon? FOK tells me no eggs, no fish, no poultry, no animal products including cheese (even yogurt!)

What exactly is bad about salmon? I mean some seafood has a some contamination, but salmon is not one of the more contaminated species. Personally I think the good about fish outweighs this. Most reports on fish are pretty positive. But hey if I get mercury poisoning ... :)

[HappyHiker]

Other than high blood pressure, I enjoy good health. Dairy does seem to make my joints ache, so I mostly avoid it, use almond milk...sometimes I'll have a bit of cheese or yogurt.

I like your moderation advice. It would be hard for me to be a strict vegan. I do enjoy fish and sometimes, turkey. Red meat I can do without, prefer a turkey burger.

Not allergic to gluten but drinking beer does give me a bloated belly, so I stick with wine.

There's just so much dietary advice out there...and much of it is contradictory. Maybe I should just stop reading all those books and watching all those documentaries. For example, Gary Taubes advocates against simple carbs, but thinks good fats are okay, while the Forks Over Knives folks don't want us to eat any fats -- even nuts, olive oil or avocados.

I have concluded that too much refined sucrose is poison and eating too many white flour products or foods with HFCS is not a good thing.

All this makes my head spin.

[jp1]

I don't have any health issues or weight issues, and never have, so I figure that what I'm eating must work for me. Of course that could all change tomorrow, but I'll deal with that then. In the meantime I'll continue to eat what I've been eating for years now, which is roughly the same as what Michael Pollan suggests. Eat food. (real, not processed) Not too much. Mostly plants. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life on whatever the latest fad diet is and not ever eating things I love just because someone selling a book wrote it down and published it.

[Rosemary]

Sugar is what makes my joints ache. I really notice it - but ONLY after I've been off it for at least a couple of weeks. When you eat a little of something every day, effects like that are easy to miss.

So my suggestion is that you try what seems reasonable to you and see how it works - for you. If you think you have food sensitivities, you can try a complete allergy elimination diet, but that is even harder than what you've listed above (no dairy, gluten, soy, egg, sugar, pork, beef, peanuts, citrus, grapes and various other things for about 6 weeks, then reintroduce slowly).

I've done the allergy elimination and that is when I learned that sugar makes my joints ache. I also seem to have a mild wheat allergy that causes background congestion that has annoyed me most of my life. After spending several months on the allergy elim, the way I try to eat is mostly vegan, with small servings of meat (mostly poultry and wild pacific salmon, sometimes wild pacific cod) and limited dairy (e.g. some feta cheese on a salad). I also have mostly eliminated oils and fats for cooking purposes, and rarely eat things made with flour. These changes have given me a lower weight and lower cholesterol, though those things weren't problems for me before. I can say that I am the only member of my immediate family with low cholesterol and low blood pressure.

The Forks over Knives people are a little too heretical about their message to really convince me - they're also in the PETA loop which makes me wonder which message came first (I am for animal welfare - but when I'm looking for info on eating for optimal health, I don't want a conflict of interest to affect it). I was not convinced when I read The China Study - too little actual data and too much griping against his colleagues who proposed a more diverse diet. I feel great when I eat many fruits and vegetables daily - and a little bit of meat or egg or dairy mixed in.

What I ate today -
breakfast - fruit salad with 1/2 avocado mixed in.
lunch - salad of romaine lettuce, sauteed (w/o oil) mushrooms, chopped up olives, and arugula, topped with pomegranate seeds. The mushrooms and olives provided enough liquid, salt, and flavor for a "dressing." Some thawed cherries with a topping of homemade granola (which I make with minimal honey and no fat).
snack - a large apple and a small handful of almonds
dinner - gingered black-eyed pea soup with sweet potato and kai lan (a Chinese green), + a piece of whole kernel pumpernickel (no flour) bread with a light smear of cream cheese

My eating continues to evolve as I experiment with new things. I don't eat low carb because I really eat a lot of fruit. But I doubt that I'll ever go back to a grain-heavy diet.

One way to look at it is to take the common points and put them together rather than focusing on the diverging messages. Here's what I see:
* eat a lot of produce
* eat whole foods
* foods ground into small bits (e.g. flour) are not the same as whole foods. whole grain flour is not the same as whole grains.
* avoid added sugar
* avoid excessive sodium
* avoid excessive eating in general

[kally]

I developed a health issue about a year back. Watched Forks over Knives and researched my area of illness and gave up right then and became a fish eating, low fat, plant based eater. Now I eat no dairy, no meat (except a bit of fish), hardly any sat fat, a bit of good oils, tons of veggies, fruit, grains, legumes etc.

It was hard, but really worth it and I feel great. Each person must find their own.

[kally]

Here is what I ate today

Oatmeal with almond milk, chia seeds, banana and raisins.

Peanut butter sandwich. Apple

Snack - some vegetarian baked beans and an orange

Meatloaf (with lentils), green salad, carrots and potatoes

Tofu pudding.

Little bits and pieces in the evening.

[Tussiemussies]

Agree with Kally every person has to see what works for their specific body. I live almost a vegan diet with no sugar at all and I feel good. Eat lots of fresh fruits and veggies( not a lot of veggies lately) but I feel very healthy.

My mother on the other hand cannot eat wheat. After a process of elimination you will find what makes you feel good! :)

[Rosemary]

Here is a website that I find to be useful and interesting. The M.D. who runs it is in favor of the no-added-fat, plant-based diet - but his information comes from peer-reviewed articles which he summarizes in brief videos
http://nutritionfacts.org/

[lhamo]

Welcome back, kally -- we've missed seeing your posts!

I agree with those who suggest experimenting with eliminating certain things and see how it affects you. I have serious blood sugar issues, and really need to stay away from sweet stuff and refined carbs. I had a work event yesterday where I had ONE pastry mid-morning, and too much caffeine, and I was out of whack all day yesterday and it has continued into today. I need to get back to proper low carb eating. I should probably try eliminating wheat and/or dairy, but not brave enough yet. Thinking about going off a medication I am on and seeing if that helps somewhat, and getting my weight back under control again (still holding steady at 68, but I've definitely lost a lot of muscle tone).

I find extremely dogmatic approaches that don't consider the possibility of individual variations in how we process food to be very offputting and unconvincing. In my view, our bodies are essentially a mini biome, and we all have our own little ecosystems that we carry around with us. My body chemistry is never going to be exactly the same as someone elses, so why should my diet be? The main thing is to find the right foods that keep us in equilibrium, and learn to stay away from the ones that put us out of whack.

lhamo

[Rosemary]

The concept of "nutritarian" eating as espoused by Dr Joel Fuhrman is another variation. He used to promote a vegan, no-oil diet, but has backed off that in the most recent version of his food pyramid, which places animal foods toward the apex of the pyramid. Grains take a backseat to plant-based foods that have a higher nutrient density (just about everything else in the plant domain).
http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/foodpyramid.aspx

[ApatheticNoMore]

Fats might actually be very clean. Carbs in excess and protein in excess may actually be more harmful than fats (even in excess). Even protein in excess is linked to shorter lifespan *although* I don't think it's easy to hit that protein excess unless you are eating lots of animal products without the fat that naturally comes with them (skinless chicken, egg whites, nonfat dairy etc.), actually if you took it far enough of just eating protein without fat you would starve to death, not that anyone does except explorers and the like.

This argument for fat is the one this book I read made (protein and carbs are set amounts, not fat): http://perfecthealthdiet.com/. I used to eat less carbs, they have me experimenting with not a huge amount but more "safe carbs" (this does not include wheat). People left to their own devices will eat less fat and more carbs and protein than ideal (they naturally optimize for reproduction not longevity - thus they eat protein and carbs), although I don't know, I gravitate naturally to pretty high fat.

Maybe just eat what you like! I am healthier than family members too, but I mostly eat food I cook myself, they mostly eat restaurants and packaged food, simple as that.

[JaneV2.0]

Fats might actually be very clean. Carbs in excess and protein in excess may actually be more harmful than fats (even in excess). Even protein in excess is linked to shorter lifespan *although* I don't think it's easy to hit that protein excess unless you are eating lots of animal products without the fat that naturally comes with them (skinless chicken, egg whites, nonfat dairy etc.), actually if you took it far enough of just eating protein without fat you would starve to death, not that anyone does except explorers and the like.
... .

The whole "saturated fat is a deadly poison" thing makes my head hurt. Saturated fat is a major component of breast milk and of the human nervous system. People on ketogenic diets are not regularly keeling over dead, regardless of propaganda to the contrary. I was set on the right track for me when I first read about how insulin works in the human body. It was a true light bulb-style epiphany. My lovely famine-resistant metabolism finally made sense. Carbohydrates always made me hungry, and I never knew why. I wish I had wised up years earlier, but wisdom is a process. I feel comfortable--and healthier--with mostly whole foods, mostly low carbohydrate eating.

[HappyHiker]

Interesting! After reading your comments--and menus--I'd welcome all of you to my kitchen as we eat very much the same...and you've made me feel much more relaxed about eating some fats, some eggs, a bit of turkey and even--gasp--pork! in small amounts (I make a mean black bean, sweet potato Caribbean stew which I sometimes season with a small amount of cubed pork) and I will continue to enjoy my lovely bowls of oatmeal with almond milk and fruit...

[JaneV2.0]

A bowl of oatmeal with butter and cream sounds good to me. Maybe with a side of sausage*. I'm all for eating food you enjoy. I've been on enough punitive diets for a lifetime. Bon appetit!

*Because, for me, eating fat-free oatmeal and fruit would have me rummaging in the refrigerator a half hour later. Adding fat and protein would probably make my pancreas less peckish.

[Suzanne]

My meals today:

Breakfast: rumbledethumps. I love the name! This is my favourite breakfast. Basically a patty made with mashed sweet potato, grated carrot, shredded kale, onion, and chopped breakfast sausage, stiffened with oatmeal, and fried in dripping. I make a batch of these on Saturdays for breakfasts through the week. If I make a meat-free version, then I top my patty with an egg.

Lunch: a sort of moussaka made with eggplant, zucchini, bell peppers, garlic, onion, and swiss chard, layered with sauce made with butter, milk, egg, and cheese. Followed by a tangerine.

Dinner: rolled stuffed flank steak braised in easy-peasy sauce made with tomato paste and chicken broth, served with a mixture of cauliflower, broccoli, corn, and green beans. Followed by half a banana.

I ate a chocolate-dipped shortbread cookie between breakfast and lunch, and am totally unrepentant.

[Suzanne]

I don't know if this is frowned upon: I'm working on my term paper (Anthropology major, UC Berkeley) and my thesis is that a major reason for the final success of H. sapiens in just about everywhere is our possible acquisition of the thrifty gene/phenotype during the Late Middle Palaeolithic. I've had to do quite a lot of research, and I'm working online through a blog - a class requirement. If you're interested in what I'm doing, here's the URL: http://suzanneubick.wordpress.com/.

Mods, have I sinned?

[razz]

Moderation is the key. I use portion control as set out by the diabetes association as my gauge for content. They use mostly 1/2 cup and oz sizes for their portions. It is quick and easy to do.

At age 68, I eat 2 (2.5oz cooked portions) of protein. 5-6 vegetables, 3 fruit, 2 dairy (mostly yogurt and I like cheese) and 5-6 (1/2 cup portions) of starch with up to 2 Tbsp of canola or olive oil.

When I eat 3/4 cup of legumes, I count them as both one portion of protein and one portion of starch.

I lost my 40 lbs and have stayed at my present weight with ease.
Makes food planning easy as well and seems to follow most recommended diets including the latest Harvard diet.

[pinkytoe]

I am glad the topic of food choices has been brought up for discussion; it is one of the things I am most conflicted about these days simply because there is so much information out there.

our bodies are essentially a mini biome, and we all have our own little ecosystems that we carry around with us. In the end, this is my assumption too.
We have eliminated all white flour and sugar products, cut our meat and dairy consumption in half, and eat a lot of fresh, raw vegetables. However, we do still have meat and eggs several times a week.
Recently, I read a book about the Russian invasion during WWII and how when they ran out of food and were starving, it was fat of any kind that they craved more than anything else. I thought that was interesting. I know I never really feel satisfied unless I have some protein (can be meat or beans) along with carbs, ie beans and rice or eggs and wheat toast.