View Full Version : Couple stopped for keeping kids in moving van on way to California........
There was news yesterday that the police stopped a moving van in Indiana.
It was being driven by a man whose wife and 2 of their 7 children were in the cab, but in the back were all their belongings, 5 children, 18 cats, and a container of gasoline. They were traveling form PA on their way to California, where they supposedly had relatives and the man was checking out a job. They apparently had stopped in eastern Indiana to visit relatives. One of the relatives called the police after they left to alert them of this horrible situation.
The back of the van was 32 degrees when the police opened it up. The children had sleeping bags......but had no way of communicating with their parents up in the cab.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
I realize that they are probably poor........but still. 18 cats? 7 kids? 5 kids in the back of a moving van with a container of gasoline?
What frightens me is that more and more of people like this are having large numbers of children. What is our country going to be like in 10-20 years?
How do we deal with this? :(
Such occurrences seem to be more the norm these days rather than oddities, don't they.
Well, as a society, we could be more mature about our approach to sex and biology. "Just saying no" has a long history of not working well in preventing pregnancy. And (I'm trying to be careful here) religious groups which consider family planning to be against the belief of their chosen deities -- despite the poverty and suffering endured by unwanted children -- could IMHO do a better job of constructively resolving the consequences of those beliefs.
We are already seeing that the birth rate in the U.S. is being driven by ethic groups which hew closely to religious traditions that do not encourage planning within the family. In some sense, that's not bad because the rising number of older people leaving the workforce will have to be supplanted by someone (several someones, actually).
I think that perception is overblown. The birth rate in the US is actually at it's lowest point ever. http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2012/10/u-s-birth-rate-drops-as-economy-struggles/
But in a country where you need to get a license to fish in most places, the idea that two people can have a baby together "just 'cuz" is really scary. If you think that's scary, try living in a country where you must have a permit to fulfill your most basic biological functions.
I did not make a quantitative statement on the birth rate in the U.S. I just noted that the driver, whatever the rate, is particular ethic groups. Didn't quantify that, either.
And here I thought cultural inclusion, acceptance and religious tolerance was a good thing. My bad..
Well, from the looks of the parents, they are 100% stupid American. I'm just thinking about all the uneducated, ignorant people there are going to be even more of before very long.
Our collective brain is getting smaller and smaller and our body is getting bigger and bigger.
I don't have the answer.
Is there not one shred of compassion or understanding or empathy for a family obviously at the end of their resources?
No. They had other avenues to pursue, but chose to put their children in harm's way. Why did they have 7 children if they had so little money?
Why did they put their children in with 18 cats in freezing weather in a box truck, with a container of gasoline? Why didn't they stay put and try to get a job in PA, instead of driving to California? Nope. I have no compassion. Actually, I have alot of compassion for the children........but not the adults.
You know, at first read, I was overwhelmed with shock and anger over the story, but then I got to thinking about the way things are today, as compared to the way they were in the past.
Women stayed home in the past, round the clock, caring for the home, the family, the kids, everything, today however, it's a changed world, and, a changed pace. Single income families are of the minority, and society (in general) has become that of a rat-race. Everyone in a panic and rush, and because of such, I'm getting the impression that people are becoming absent-minded as a result.
With no family matriarch to lead, turmoil and commotion secures it's place, helping to spark or set-off a series of, or chain of events that result in happenings such as the one in question. Our economy is in the dumps, and society has lost it's foothold, and it's being reflected in the daily going-ons and actions of average everyday people.
I'm not going so far as to say that neglect, carelessness, or laxness, is something we all should accept and/or adopt as being the new acceptable, just that with society on the path that it is, it's easy to recognize the crumbling structure surrounding the modern family, compared to the grounded family unit of the past, the grounded family unit so many of us are familiar with from our pasts, and as we all know, whenever foundations fail, the building falls with it.
So sad...
There's no telling what circumstances were present when the family chose to do what they chose to do, however, I take comfort in attempting to peer further into the situation with the idea that the parents were doing their best in a poor situation, and possibly, due to a lack of resources to help carry them through, i.e., hardship/distress (whatever), luck wasn't on their side, and being left so vulnerable, it doesn't make for a convincing case of quality parenting, even though they may be the most loving and caring of parents.
Normally I would be glad that a family like this took their cats, but 18--that's a lot of cats.That number probably proves that they are a little off.
awakenedsoul
12-1-12, 1:50am
That's so sad. I live next door to a group of people who also keep having more children when they can't afford it. They rent a one bedroom home. One couple used to live in the garage but Building and Safety cited the owner. That couple is now pregnant with their fourth child. There are at least ten people living in the home. The father drives a brand new truck. They spend most of their time socializing in the driveway, drinking, and smoking.
I have catastrophic insurance, and in CA that means free birth control, free sterilization, etc...I guess the people who need it will not take advantage of it. Population control is a big concern for me here. Unfortunately, sometimes the most desperate people are the ones who have the most children. It worries me, too, Cathy.
ToomuchStuff
12-1-12, 2:27am
There was news yesterday that the police stopped a moving van in Indiana.
It was being driven by a man whose wife and 2 of their 7 children were in the cab, but in the back were all their belongings, 5 children, 18 cats, and a container of gasoline. They were traveling form PA on their way to California, where they supposedly had relatives and the man was checking out a job. They apparently had stopped in eastern Indiana to visit relatives. One of the relatives called the police after they left to alert them of this horrible situation.
The back of the van was 32 degrees when the police opened it up. The children had sleeping bags......but had no way of communicating with their parents up in the cab.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
I realize that they are probably poor........but still. 18 cats? 7 kids? 5 kids in the back of a moving van with a container of gasoline?
What frightens me is that more and more of people like this are having large numbers of children. What is our country going to be like in 10-20 years?
How do we deal with this? :(
Don't stop them and let Darwin's rules apply. Then the kids, won't grow up in that environment, and complete the cycle, where in poverty, Sex is the entertainment, without birth control.
goldensmom
12-1-12, 6:36am
Is there not one shred of compassion or understanding or empathy for a family obviously at the end of their resources?
A person can have compassion, understanding and empathy for a family is such a situration but legal/safety issues trump all 3.
ToomuchStuff........but in our society, we don't let the Darwin rules apply.....that's part of the problem. Because of our supposed "compassion" and feeling that individual rights are the most important thing, Darwin's theories no longer seem to work. But maybe it does work, but over a much longer period. Maybe over a few centuries, we become so diluted in our strength, that as an organism, we can't survive.??
I honestly don't know what the answer is.......but it definitely scares me that ignorance seems to be growing at really fast rates.
the cats could have been their food source while on the road.
Maxamillion
12-1-12, 9:51am
It kind of reminds me when I was 14 and we moved out to the country. It was me, my two younger sisters, our five animals (2 dogs, 3 cats) squeezed into the back of a small pickup (one of those that had a camper shell), along with as many boxes and bags that would fit. The weather was horrible and stormy that day and the poor animals were panicky. Thankfully we didn't have to go to the other side of the country but it was still a very unpleasant 30 minute or so ride, half of which was over a muddy slippery gravel road.
Square Peg
12-1-12, 2:39pm
Such occurrences seem to be more the norm these days rather than oddities, don't they.
I think it seems that way because we now have internet and 24 hour news cycles. I think they are still the oddities, which is why they are news.
Also, single income households were historically NOT the norm. Most of the time, both parents worked. The major change occurred during Victorian times, when people started leaving the household to work. Single earner households were only really possible for middle class families at that time. For poor families, women and children were also working, often in factories. Although for a time, women did bring piecework home and would have the whole family working. The single earner family was alive only during a short time, post world war 2. In the US, it could happen thanks to a lot of government subsidies. Also, even then, many women worked at least part time once the kids went to school. And many part time women still worked.
Square Peg
12-1-12, 2:42pm
Maxamillion also brings up a good point, this behavior might not have even been thought criminal 40 or 50 years ago. I remember when riding in the backs of trucks was considered normal. And when I was growing up, my family of 9 kids would all smoosh together in the back of our station wagon. I know those are different than the back of a moving van, but it might not have been as much of a leap in logic.
That is true goldensmom, but a little, gosh even a shred of compassion, empathy and the rest might has helped this family at their original home and it absolutely would have been helpful if the Indiana relatives had offered anything during the visit instead of waiting until they were on their way before calling the cops.
However, since I was not there, I do not know the details, nor can I know exactly what the circumstances for providing/offering and receiving assistance might have been. Offers of help may very well have been made and refused.
What I do know is what I have read in this thread. And, please keep in mind that I am speaking only from the experiences that have formed and informed me, but my distress is great at how quickly this conversation turned to thoughts and opinions about this family that are pure speculation.
Please allow me to expand on what I personally know about employment and homelessness, aspects of living with which I am familiar.
I work with severely disadvantaged persons. Some of them are in their circumstances because of all kinds of choices and influences, sometimes of their own making, of course, but people often find themselves in need because of things beyond their control and despite their best efforts.
I have many clients who are struggling every single day to keep their families and homes intact. There are others who are homeless, living in shelters and gypsy-ing from friend to family to wherever and back again because once you have fallen from the grace of even living and surviving financially from month to month, it is nearly impossible to get back to financial stability, tenuous as that may be.
One of my clients from last week is living in his truck with his dog and two cats. He does not have children, and that makes his situation not as drastic as it might be if he did. I live in the upper Midwest and it is cold, and despite the temperatures above 50F we have been having, it is really frigid at night. His hope is to find better paying employment (immediately here and then one in Florida), so that he can save money in order to travel to Florida where he has family with whom he can stay until things improve for him and his in-laws.
He worked for a company for more than forty years; the business closed six months ago. Until he lost his job, he was taking excellent care of his wife, her mother and his brother-in-law who is disabled. He is on his own now because his wife left him, leaving her mother and brother behind, in his care. That was six months ago, less than a week after he lost his job, and despite the pleas from his mother-in-law, he has been unable to convince his wife to, not return, because that is her preference, but to at least have contact with her mother. He has found resources and made arrangements for their care, but cannot find another full-time job because the work that he did is redundant and that is where his work skills are, and having temporary employment is not paying enough to allow him to find housing and pay utilities and all the rest that being in your own place entails. Most of his wages go to paying for his wife's family.
He will not consider moving into a shelter because he is unwilling to give up his animals. There are so many people in my part of the state that have having great difficulty keeping and taking care of their families and their pets, and there simply are not sufficient resources here for fostering pets until/if families get back on their feet. Frankly, when you have lost practically everything...again, keeping in mind that this is despite his best efforts and through no fault of his own...I can understand his reluctance to be without his pets. True winter weather is on the way, so I am not sure what his options are going to be.
To be honest, having taken care of his wife's family members and assuring their safety is pretty darn wonderful and at this point, having lost everything else he really should not have to give up his pets as well. They feel like the only family he has left.
It would seem that he should be able to find a job, some people might think. If anyone else here works with those who are unemployed, they know how difficult that is. Living in his truck is not a solution to not having enough money and resources to survive, but he is doing the best he can. I have connected him to several agencies and hopefully we will be able to help him find a safe place for his dog and cats and get him somewhere safe and warm.
He is not alone. I work with only a small percentage of the people who are in exactly the same, dire circumstances. You might believe that his suffering right now is because he refuses to take the responsibility to pull himself out of his problems, but that is simply not true. Without a decent support system around him, he is truly doing the best that he can.
Maybe it is the same thing for that family.
Maybe they exhausted every resource before embarking on that terrible trip.
Maybe because their children are having to give up their normal lives, that they simply cannot make them give up their pets, too.
Maybe the story about them would have a different ending if their relatives in Indiana had done more than wait until the family left before alerting the authorities.
Maybe there are extenuating circumstances that made it scary or dangerous for the Indiana folk to be more proactive in helping their traveling relatives. Or, maybe they have their own struggles, or just did not want to get that involved. There is too much missing from the story to make any assumptions (even though I sort of am, but only as a factor of discourse) about any of it, although I am making guesses, huge ones.
Even if we had more information, how is it possible that those of us who have so much can be so dismissive, so heartless, so lacking in compassion for those who do not.
I have never been unemployed, but I do know about problems that are difficult, if not impossible to solve, as my personal experience is that earlier this year I fled with my life and nothing else, from a really terrible situation, one in which I nearly died. I am crafting a new life near to where all of this happened, because I need to be close to where I work.
And, I am a success story because I have the means to become more successful. Except for being homeless and living in a DV shelter for a while to stay safe and hidden, I have not used any other community resources because I was fortunate to have a large amount of savings. Not everyone can do what I have done, or is able to find help, the kind of help that really makes it possible to move forward from adversity. More importantly, there are countless families and individuals who are experiencing employment problems in a way that we have never seen before.
There could be dozens of things wrong with that family, or there could not. And, I am not sure I understand what it mean that people like that are having large families. I wonder what could be the criteria that makes them "people like that." Perhaps the conversation about having too many children or pets, or lack of intelligence, the judging based on speculation is a substitute for addressing the core issues of this tragedy. I cannot say, I can only speculate.
The truth is that even when people are manifesting what seems to us to be pointless, stupid, careless and dangerous behavior, the chances are excellent that they are simply doing the best that they can. Just like I do, and I suspect that is true for most people.
Originally posted by Square Peg.
Also, single income households were historically NOT the norm.It must have been different in the US, as compared to our country, Canada, because I remember not so much as a single (married mother, particularly with younger children) worked outside the home. Single income families ruled back then.
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-12, 9:31pm
Is there not one shred of compassion or understanding or empathy for a family obviously at the end of their resources?Thank you, this is exactly what I was thinking. I would agree that maybe it is not the best of circumstances to be travelling with eighteen cats and a container of gas and those kids in the back with no way to communicate what is going on to their parents BUT....how far off are most Americans from a nightmare scenario like this due to outsourcing and declining wages and lack of work for so many? Maybe some compassion might be what the doctor ordered? Just sayin'.....Rob
It must have been different in the US, as compared to our country, Canada, because I remember not so much as a single (married mother, particularly with younger children) worked outside the home. Single income families ruled back then.
All of my aunts and my mom worked. Every single one of them.
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-12, 9:35pm
No. They had other avenues to pursue, but chose to put their children in harm's way. Why did they have 7 children if they had so little money?
Why did they put their children in with 18 cats in freezing weather in a box truck, with a container of gasoline? Why didn't they stay put and try to get a job in PA, instead of driving to California? Nope. I have no compassion. Actually, I have alot of compassion for the children........but not the adults.With all due respect I must agree to disagree. Desperation can drive you to all kinds of irrational impractical acts - and yes, I have been there before - it's been a good ten years since I have been there but I have been there.....I do agree about concern for the welfare of the children though, and I also would like to add - we don't know of the financial situation these folks may have once had - it is possible that they may have filled better shoes at one point when they started having these kids.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-12, 9:38pm
Normally I would be glad that a family like this took their cats, but 18--that's a lot of cats.That number probably proves that they are a little off.The eighteen cats does seem a bit excessive, yes I gotta agree with that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-12, 9:44pm
That is true goldensmom, but a little, gosh even a shred of compassion, empathy and the rest might has helped this family at their original home and it absolutely would have been helpful if the Indiana relatives had offered anything during the visit instead of waiting until they were on their way before calling the cops.
However, since I was not there, I do not know the details, nor can I know exactly what the circumstances for providing/offering and receiving assistance might have been. Offers of help may very well have been made and refused.
What I do know is what I have read in this thread. And, please keep in mind that I am speaking only from the experiences that have formed and informed me, but my distress is great at how quickly this conversation turned to thoughts and opinions about this family that are pure speculation.
Please allow me to expand on what I personally know about employment and homelessness, aspects of living with which I am familiar.
I work with severely disadvantaged persons. Some of them are in their circumstances because of all kinds of choices and influences, sometimes of their own making, of course, but people often find themselves in need because of things beyond their control and despite their best efforts.
I have many clients who are struggling every single day to keep their families and homes intact. There are others who are homeless, living in shelters and gypsy-ing from friend to family to wherever and back again because once you have fallen from the grace of even living and surviving financially from month to month, it is nearly impossible to get back to financial stability, tenuous as that may be.
One of my clients from last week is living in his truck with his dog and two cats. He does not have children, and that makes his situation not as drastic as it might be if he did. I live in the upper Midwest and it is cold, and despite the temperatures above 50F we have been having, it is really frigid at night. His hope is to find better paying employment (immediately here and then one in Florida), so that he can save money in order to travel to Florida where he has family with whom he can stay until things improve for him and his in-laws.
He worked for a company for more than forty years; the business closed six months ago. Until he lost his job, he was taking excellent care of his wife, her mother and his brother-in-law who is disabled. He is on his own now because his wife left him, leaving her mother and brother behind, in his care. That was six months ago, less than a week after he lost his job, and despite the pleas from his mother-in-law, he has been unable to convince his wife to, not return, because that is her preference, but to at least have contact with her mother. He has found resources and made arrangements for their care, but cannot find another full-time job because the work that he did is redundant and that is where his work skills are, and having temporary employment is not paying enough to allow him to find housing and pay utilities and all the rest that being in your own place entails. Most of his wages go to paying for his wife's family.
He will not consider moving into a shelter because he is unwilling to give up his animals. There are so many people in my part of the state that have having great difficulty keeping and taking care of their families and their pets, and there simply are not sufficient resources here for fostering pets until/if families get back on their feet. Frankly, when you have lost practically everything...again, keeping in mind that this is despite his best efforts and through no fault of his own...I can understand his reluctance to be without his pets. True winter weather is on the way, so I am not sure what his options are going to be.
To be honest, having taken care of his wife's family members and assuring their safety is pretty darn wonderful and at this point, having lost everything else he really should not have to give up his pets as well. They feel like the only family he has left.
It would seem that he should be able to find a job, some people might think. If anyone else here works with those who are unemployed, they know how difficult that is. Living in his truck is not a solution to not having enough money and resources to survive, but he is doing the best he can. I have connected him to several agencies and hopefully we will be able to help him find a safe place for his dog and cats and get him somewhere safe and warm.
He is not alone. I work with only a small percentage of the people who are in exactly the same, dire circumstances. You might believe that his suffering right now is because he refuses to take the responsibility to pull himself out of his problems, but that is simply not true. Without a decent support system around him, he is truly doing the best that he can.
Maybe it is the same thing for that family.
Maybe they exhausted every resource before embarking on that terrible trip.
Maybe because their children are having to give up their normal lives, that they simply cannot make them give up their pets, too.
Maybe the story about them would have a different ending if their relatives in Indiana had done more than wait until the family left before alerting the authorities.
Maybe there are extenuating circumstances that made it scary or dangerous for the Indiana folk to be more proactive in helping their traveling relatives. Or, maybe they have their own struggles, or just did not want to get that involved. There is too much missing from the story to make any assumptions (even though I sort of am, but only as a factor of discourse) about any of it, although I am making guesses, huge ones.
Even if we had more information, how is it possible that those of us who have so much can be so dismissive, so heartless, so lacking in compassion for those who do not.
I have never been unemployed, but I do know about problems that are difficult, if not impossible to solve, as my personal experience is that earlier this year I fled with my life and nothing else, from a really terrible situation, one in which I nearly died. I am crafting a new life near to where all of this happened, because I need to be close to where I work.
And, I am a success story because I have the means to become more successful. Except for being homeless and living in a DV shelter for a while to stay safe and hidden, I have not used any other community resources because I was fortunate to have a large amount of savings. Not everyone can do what I have done, or is able to find help, the kind of help that really makes it possible to move forward from adversity. More importantly, there are countless families and individuals who are experiencing employment problems in a way that we have never seen before.
There could be dozens of things wrong with that family, or there could not. And, I am not sure I understand what it mean that people like that are having large families. I wonder what could be the criteria that makes them "people like that." Perhaps the conversation about having too many children or pets, or lack of intelligence, the judging based on speculation is a substitute for addressing the core issues of this tragedy. I cannot say, I can only speculate.
The truth is that even when people are manifesting what seems to us to be pointless, stupid, careless and dangerous behavior, the chances are excellent that they are simply doing the best that they can. Just like I do, and I suspect that is true for most people.I couldn't have said this any better myself.....I so agree with so much of what you have posted, and I say BRAVO to you for turning your life around and getting to a better place.....Rob
ApatheticNoMore
12-1-12, 9:58pm
I would agree that maybe it is not the best of circumstances to be travelling with eighteen cats and a container of gas and those kids in the back with no way to communicate what is going on to their parents
When some shrink hears this story in a decade or two (and um that is the good scenario), they're not going to have compassion for those parents. Maybe that is compassion for the kids, to just admit, yea that situation is a heck of a messed up, period. Not sympathy with the adults who somehow let a situation like that evolve, but sympathy instead for the kids who really are just ... along for the ride as it were.
gimmethesimplelife
12-1-12, 10:08pm
When some shrink hears this story in a decade or two (and um that is the good scenario), they're not going to have compassion for those parents. Maybe that is compassion for the kids, to just admit, yea that situation is a heck of a messed up, period. Not sypmathy with the adults who somehow let a situation like that evolve, but sympathy with the kids who really are just um along for the ride as it were.APN - I agree with you that this situation is messed up, I would even state it stronger than that but will refrain from doing so here. But on the other hand, my take is that we simply don't have all the missing pieces of the puzzle as to how this situation evolved and how much of the blame for it can realistically be laid at the feet of the parents. For all I know, it may be 100% - I will give you that. OTOH once again, we don't know if the economic meltdown of the past few years is partially or almost completely responsible for this, or what station in life these folks come from (or once had.) To me there is too much missing information to make a quick judgement on anyone here, other than the situation is messed up, no doubt about that much. I have to be one of the lone dissenting voices here as I have spent some of my life in fairly precarious situations, not totally of my own making, which has very much influenced how I see many things to this day including society and the US. Gotta have some compassion until I at least have more details. Rob
iris lily
12-2-12, 12:32am
This family trip sounds like something out of Jeannette Walls' Glass Castle where her parents would do strange, dangerous things with their children in the name of "adventure." Drink and mental illness was fueling that situation.
gimmethesimplelife
12-2-12, 12:50am
This family trip sounds like something out of Jeannette Walls' Glass Castle where her parents would do strange, dangerous things with their children in the name of "adventure." Drink and mental illness was fueling that situation.Iris Lilly, do you remember McKenzie Phillips from One Day at a Time back in the 70's? She claims that all kinds of strange things happened to her in her childhood with her father claiming it all as an "adventure." (her father being from the Mommas and the Poppas). And she herself ended out with a substance abuse problem and some sad stories I have listened to on youtube.
Your post reminded me of her. I also think it's possible that drink and or mental illness could be involved here - either way I really feel for the kids. In the case of drink I have a bit less sympathy for the parents as there comes a time when people have to exersize personal responsibility.....in the case of mental illness, with all the budget cuts and the lack of access to meds and care that so many in the US face, I have much much much more sympathy for the parents. In the case of both I still have a great deal of sympathy. Those poor kids though....If there is a cycle that needs to broken here and it does not get broken - more drama similar to McKenzie's is quite likely and there's plenty of it enough out there already.
Once again, though, for myself I believe there's missing info in this story that would make things much more clear if known. Rob
I have to agree with Iris Lilly, when you look back at the women in my family, there isn't one "matriarch" who keeps us from being put in the back of vans with containers of gasoline. It's working women all the way back to the 1700s as far as we can tell (either farmers, servants, or factory workers -- with a distinct change in the late 1800s to educated women working the arts, sciences, educators, and secretaries and similar).
Likewise, I bristle at the idea that because I am a working woman (and loathed the SAHM lifestyle while I lived it), my family is somehow destined to this sort of stupidity that keeps children and the rest of the family healthy and safe. Admittedly, without my husband taking on the lions share of home duties, we would have more struggle at home (thankfully, he "works" only part time outside of the home).
Finally, I have to say that I read this as the family being a combination of desperate and foolish. I'm not sure how this became their best and only option, and likewise, I find it sad that they considered it their best and only option. Hopefully, they are able to get to where they are going without the government taking their children away -- because I can think of nothing worse than being separated from one's much-beloved children. Yes, even if you have 7 of them.
I also agree with Alan that the idea of licensing to have children is a great . . . travesty of justice, as is when children are wrongly taken from their loving families. i have a family that I know going through this situation now, their only crime seemingly is having the audacity to rightly choose to have 8 children and then, subsequently become homeless through no fault of their own -- he works and they have money, but their landlord didn't renew the lease because he had a family member who needed a place to stay. they simply cannot find housing for the 10 of them, or rather someone who would rent. As such, they refused to go into a shelter because they would be separated from their father (women and children only in "family housing"), and so they chose to stay in their vans and rent a campsite each night. Her family then called protective services, and while the children are fed, clean, educated, and happy, they have been removed from the home simply for being "homeless." It's an absolute travesty.
At the end of the day, I have no idea why this family made these choices. It's sad, really, that anyone would have to. And I'm reminded of what the tent city folk are going through in the US.
What's wrong with having 7 or 10 children? Who is to say that they aren't afforded until recently? For many -- regardless of their ethnicity (my friends are both white) -- children are a blessing and so they have a lot of them. I cannot fault them, even if it is not my path.
I find it odd that there are many on forums such as these that laud and admire and romanticize the times of covered wagons, Little House on the Prarie, (books) and depression days and not realize that these same people often lived in like conditions but are revered for their fortitude. Every thing I've ever read of people living in the 19th century pioneer and depression life describes conditions of freezing temperatures in the house where children had to huddle under comforters and the only heat was from the wood burning stove in the kitchen. Laura Ingalls Wilder describes conditions that are much worse, children alone, children living in extreme conditions. Descriptions of little food, clothing or shelter, but they are 'frugal', or live 'simple lives'. We idolize Lincoln living in his Log Cabin without really thinking about what that meant, literally to live it. The conditions described in this event, while not desirable are just realconditions of life. We do not know the rest of this families story or how or why they came to be in this condition. Perhaps they were just doing the very best they could and moving on to something more hopeful with a chance of a better life. Anyone watch Frontline's Poor Kids? How can people judge so easily? When I was a young mother, I had two children under 3. I was homeless. I lived in a trailer that attached to my used car that we moved every week or two to not be trespassing. I didn't receive food stamps or welfare. I worked. 40 hours a week at a fast food restaurant. I used a small tub and heated water on the propane stove and bathed my children in it. I cooked food for them on a campfire. They were clean. They were fed. They were healthy. They survived. One is graduating with a degree in Anthropology, the other has worked hard as a single mother to raise her child alone. Who is anyone to judge without knowing the rest of these people's story? I am not saying there is no issue here, but I denounce the judgmental tone.
gimmethesimplelife
12-2-12, 10:08am
I find it odd that there are many on forums such as these that laud and admire and romanticize the times of covered wagons, Little House on the Prarie, (books) and depression days and not realize that these same people often lived in like conditions but are revered for their fortitude. Every thing I've ever read of people living in the 19th century pioneer and depression life describes conditions of freezing temperatures in the house where children had to huddle under comforters and the only heat was from the wood burning stove in the kitchen. Laura Ingalls Wilder describes conditions that are much worse, children alone, children living in extreme conditions. Descriptions of little food, clothing or shelter, but they are 'frugal', or live 'simple lives'. We idolize Lincoln living in his Log Cabin without really thinking about what that meant, literally to live it. The conditions described in this event, while not desirable are just realconditions of life. We do not know the rest of this families story or how or why they came to be in this condition. Perhaps they were just doing the very best they could and moving on to something more hopeful with a chance of a better life. Anyone watch Frontline's Poor Kids? How can people judge so easily? When I was a young mother, I had two children under 3. I was homeless. I lived in a trailer that attached to my used car that we moved every week or two to not be trespassing. I didn't receive food stamps or welfare. I worked. 40 hours a week at a fast food restaurant. I used a small tub and heated water on the propane stove and bathed my children in it. I cooked food for them on a campfire. They were clean. They were fed. They were healthy. They survived. One is graduating with a degree in Anthropology, the other has worked hard as a single mother to raise her child alone. Who is anyone to judge without knowing the rest of these people's story? I am not saying there is no issue here, but I denounce the judgmental tone.Bravo to what you have posted here and I couldn't agree with you more about the judgemental tone. It is amazing to me how people - I'm guessing (?) who have never experienced such sub-optimal living conditions, can set in judgement on those who are.....I can say from personal experience I have endured some pretty crazy things when I was a child and I have worked very hard on forgiveness and realizing that my parents were just human and doing the best they could with what they had to work with and their skills and ablities and upbringing. Quick judgements like I have seen here - very common throughout society - make me very grateful to be deeply introverted and pretty much emotionally self sufficient. Maybe this is the good that I have gleaned from my past - to have compassion for others who are not living as society says they should and to be perfectly fine with being alone in life. i'll close by saying, as I have said before, there are details in the story the OP posted that we don't know - and there are reasons that such a seemingly crazy trip may take place, indeed perhaps be one of the better options on the table. Walk a mile in these people's shoes - then judge - that's all I'm saying. Rob
catherine
12-2-12, 10:20am
Put me in the Jilly, Tiam and Rob camp. It's difficult for people who have never been in that intersection of "desperation and foolishness" as Zoebird rightly called it to understand how you would react in that situation. As someone who has been there, I pray for these folks--that the dad gets a job and the family finds a suitable home. I'm sure that's all they want for themselves.
And a side comment on Mrs-M's post. As necessary as it is sometimes for both parents to work two jobs in situations like this, I also would like to see more moms able to stay at home.
Perhaps how one feels about hearing these things, has to do with the regularity with which you hear about them in your area. Last summer, there were multiple situations of parents leaving their small children in hot cars while they shopped. One child even died. Then there's the toddlers found walking down highways after dark by themselves, and children scalded in bathtubs. There's a point at which compassion for parents who make bad decisions just slips away.
If you don't have enough education to get the type of job to support 7 children and 18 cats, then you shouldn't have them.
Go ahead and call me heartless. Do you want to live in a world with lots of these types of people? Do you want to support them and their poor choices?
If seeing this type of thing weren't so common, I wouldn't be so concerned, and might be able to feel more compassion. Even "poor" people can make better choices than these 2 adults have made.
rodeosweetheart
12-2-12, 11:32am
Put me in the Tiam, Rob, Jill, Catherine camp too, although with what Iris was saying, my mom is the matriarch who would have put us back in there with the gasoline, so I don't think having good judgement and protecting kids from stupid, needless risks is gender-based.
Our upbringing was kind of like that of Mitt Romney's dog.
We used to ride around perched on the back of my Dad's austin healey, above the jump seat.
It is amazing we survived to our cranky middle age and now worry about things like cancer--we should have been dead long ago.
One time, my granddad drove us over the line on the drawbridge--think it was to Tybee--and we rode the car all the way up with the bridge.
My brother and I sort of looked at each other and made a mental pact to never tell anyone, because we didn't want to stop driving with our granddad.
rodeosweetheart
12-2-12, 11:36am
Sorry for the double post--Cathy writes,
Do you want to live in a world with lots of these types of people?
but the point is, we DO live in the world with lots of these people, and I certainly don't wish to resort to eugenics to get rid of stupidity, or none of us would be here. It's also morally abhorrent to me to tell people "you are so stupid you should not be alive, you are too stupid to reproduce." Not that you can't take kids out of an unsafe situation, of course you should. But don't kid yourselves that is not a tragedy for the child, either way.
In 40 years, our kids will be lamenting some stupid thing we exposed them to--like brain cancer from cell phones.
My feelings come out of frustration with our society..........that we accept situations that allow people to be put in bad situations. What I mean is, we are so easy on people who have more children than they can ever afford; we don't require that alot of our taxes go to assuring really good schools; etc., etc., etc. The liberals feel everyone should have personal freedoms and the conservatives feel that the government should keep its nose out of everything. I don't know what the answer is. I just seeing this type of population growing at really scary rates, and worry about what kind of world my children will be left with.
rodeosweetheart.......to insert a little bit of humor...........your story reminds me of a joke I heard: "I want to die peacefully in my sleep.....just like my grandpa did....(.with everyone else in the back of the car screaming.)"
rodeosweetheart
12-2-12, 12:00pm
rodeosweetheart.......to insert a little bit of humor...........your story reminds me of a joke I heard: "I want to die peacefully in my sleep.....just like my grandpa did....(.with everyone else in the back of the car screaming.)"
That is funny!!
Perhaps how one feels about hearing these things, has to do with the regularity with which you hear about them in your area. Last summer, there were multiple situations of parents leaving their small children in hot cars while they shopped. One child even died. Then there's the toddlers found walking down highways after dark by themselves, and children scalded in bathtubs. There's a point at which compassion for parents who make bad decisions just slips away.
If you don't have enough education to get the type of job to support 7 children and 18 cats, then you shouldn't have them.
Go ahead and call me heartless. Do you want to live in a world with lots of these types of people? Do you want to support them and their poor choices?
If seeing this type of thing weren't so common, I wouldn't be so concerned, and might be able to feel more compassion. Even "poor" people can make better choices than these 2 adults have made.
Ah, the "if you can't feed 'em don't have 'em" argument. As
if we know these people and the rest of their situation. Do I want more people in such situations? No. But the camp that declaims this situation usually declaims the means to raise people up also. Believe me, I work in a business every single day where I see people who I fervently believe should never, ever have had children, not even one, let alone 7. But the parent who isn't capable of parenting one child well (and I use that word loosely as we can see right here, "well" means different things to different people), usually doesn't have the wherewithal to see any difference between 1 or 7. They don't usually see their lifestyle as a 'poor' one; just their life.
I actually just had this conversation with someone the other day: I remember when it wasn't so looked down upon to be poor. In fact our society seemed to honor poverty as long as people were working and trying. Today, just being poor is more stigmatic. The poor of today have the same problems of yesteryear when it comes to poverty, physically. They still have to find shelter and food. But do we know that this situation will never change for this family? What do we know about these people? That they were doing their best to stay together? That they were looking for work? That they had shelter and sleeping bags? That they were networking with family to try and meet a goal?
I faced your attitude when I was in that situation. The scorn, the derision of others who judged me, who criticized me, who found misguided and angry ways to 'help' me instead of true help. I remember a park official who stormed over to my trailer and demanded to know if these children were mine. How was I feeding them? Show her my food! She judged. And she called Child Welfare. I didn't know she had called child welfare. But they showed up. And guess what they saw. My children clothed and shod, with freshly washed hair, brushed and combed. We sat under a tree eating chicken noodle soup on a picnic cloth. We had apple slices and milk I had bought to drink. She asked me if I had food stamps and I told her no. She asked if I needed anything? Yes, I answered, a house. She didn't have one for me but told me there was no crime against being poor and left, much to the park attendants fury. And that night we huddled together in the trailer under blankets, three to a bed. I didn't always make good choices back then, especially looking back on it, I see many mistakes in judgement that I made including that I should have done more to not be in that situation. Including having not had children at that point in life. But there wasn't anyone back then who judged me negatively who offered assistance in a meaningful way. Being homeless was very hard. Once you are homeless, it is very, very difficult to get out of it. There are many obstacles to climbing out of that hole without significant help or a decent break. Declaring the people shouldn't never have had the children is like shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted.
iris lily
12-2-12, 12:57pm
Iris Lilly, do you remember McKenzie Phillips from One Day at a Time back in the 70's? She claims that all kinds of strange things happened to her in her childhood with her father claiming it all as an "adventure."
... Rob
Yup and her recent book, was it out last year? Made some awful claims against dear old dad.
I used to idolize Michelle Phillips (Mackenzie's step mom) and looking back, it is remarkable that she got out of that situation intact. She was delicately pretty and looked like a kitten, but that girl was strong minded. Look how her kid Chynna Phillips turned out--just fine considering that Hollywood life that surrounded her. And this may be much more attributable to genetics than anything, MacKenzie getting her dad's bent for addiction and Chynna getting mom's healthy psyche.
...We used to ride around perched on the back of my Dad's austin healey, above the jump seat.
Oh man, your dad had an Austin-Healey? The big Healey? Sigh of envy. My parents didn't even know what that was.
Today, just being poor is more stigmatic.
Absolutely. I did a market research study to learn the difference in attitudes about schizophrenia between India and the US. I spoke with 40 Indian psychiatrists and they pretty much all said that in India schizophrenics carry just one stigma: mental illness, whereas schizophrenics in the US carry two: mental illness AND poverty.
If we're going to be so up in arms about people who are poor, what about all the people who raise their kids in poverty of emotional health? I may not see a lot of kids in my area who are in danger due to poverty but I see kids of affluent parents in danger because they are expected to be simply an extension of their parents' egos, and they are treated accordingly. I'm just as concerned about the fate of those kids but there's no police or social service workers to address that issue.
One more thing...
I feel it's very easy to judge poor people when you haven't been in their position. That's what I find frustrating sometimes--like Tiam, I feel like I had four children I shouldn't have had by some people's standards.
Here is a great game to play--see how YOU would do with limited resources:
http://www.playspent.org/
...If we're going to be so up in arms about people who are poor, what about all the people who raise their kids in poverty of emotional health? I may not see a lot of kids in my area who are in danger due to poverty but I see kids of affluent parents in danger because they are expected to be simply an extension of their parents' egos, and they are treated accordingly. I'm just as concerned about the fate of those kids but there's no police or social service workers to address that issue.
For one thing, it's not nearly as easy to spot those kinds of families and children in danger. But if you wish to be "up in arms" go for it, my friend. How Nanny G's army of earnest social workers will ferret out that problem and respond to it, well--you have more faith in the social services institutions of our government than I do. And frankly, I don't want to pay for them sticking their nose in it but please be my guest to send tax dollars that way voluntarily.
The people in the truck with cats and kids aren't being judged for poverty, they are seen as placing beings weaker than themselves in danger. I worry about the cats. The children will land some place, the cats will be euthanized.
you have more faith in the social services institutions of our government than I do. And frankly, I don't want to pay for them sticking their nose in it but please be my guest to send tax dollars that way voluntarily.
I agree, Iris Lily. Believe me, I have very limited faith in what social services can do. I am just bucking against the attitudes about poor people. Sometimes poor people are forced into choices they never would make if they didn't have to. We don't know this family in question. Certainly it seems ludicrous the idea that all these kids AND 18 cats AND a gas can are all shoved in the back of an unheated truck. I get that. But I wish people would be less judgmental. There but for the grace of God go I....
I loved the game. I ran out of money on day 6. I failed the typing test, but in real life I don't think I would have. Still would have run out of money though.
I'm not sure an army of social workers is the answer either.
I agree, Iris Lily. Believe me, I have very limited faith in what social services can do. I am just bucking against the attitudes about poor people. Sometimes poor people are forced into choices they never would make if they didn't have to. We don't know this family in question. Certainly it seems ludicrous the idea that all these kids AND 18 cats AND a gas can are all shoved in the back of an unheated truck. I get that. But I wish people would be less judgmental. There but for the grace of God go I....
The thought about mental illness in India vs US was interesting. Schizophrenia is such as tragic disease, it is so all consuming and those who have that illness tend to go spiraling downward out of the sight of polite society. But then, maybe that's just the people we see on the street, perhaps a fair number take their meds and manage to survive with families and jobs. I really don't' know, don't have that mental illness among friends or family.
Just to be clear, I don't think people who disaproved of me did so because I was poor, but because as it was put, I was putting weaker beings in danger because they felt my living condition was not suitable.
Just to be clear, I don't think people who disaproved of me did so because I was poor, but because as it was put, I was putting weaker beings in danger because they felt my living condition was not suitable.
But you were not, were you? So why worry about it?
Let us take comfort in the fact that we live in a perfect world, where everyone is infallible, that is, other than the family in the van.
And a side comment on Mrs-M's post. As necessary as it is sometimes for both parents to work two jobs in situations like this, I also would like to see more moms able to stay at home.
I agree -- I wish more families could choose such an option. But, it needs to be a choice, too.
THat is to say, just because a family can choose this option doesn't mean that they want to live that way. I personally *need* to work in order to feel fulfilled. I love my work. And my husband loves his work.
But what we have also created is the opportunity for us to have more family time. DS is in school for 21 hrs and in care with a friend 5 hrs. This is when the majority of our business work is done. DH, DS, and I have afternoons together at the park or pool. DH has his writing time, and I teach evening/weekend classes in addition to my normal work-day ones. So, in a way, we are both "SAHP" while also being "WOHP."
I just sort of rankle at the idea that mom should be the one staying at home. all good if she finds that fulfilling, but it doesn't mean it's automatically what is best for the child/family.
But you were not, were you? So why worry about it?
Worry? I'm not. But it's relevant to the point. I didn't feel I was endangering them, but others certainly did as my story illustrates. Just as some feel this was, when maybe it was the best they could do.
For one thing, it's not nearly as easy to spot those kinds of families and children in danger. But if you wish to be "up in arms" go for it, my friend. How Nanny G's army of earnest social workers will ferret out that problem and respond to it, well--you have more faith in the social services institutions of our government than I do. And frankly, I don't want to pay for them sticking their nose in it but please be my guest to send tax dollars that way voluntarily.
The people in the truck with cats and kids aren't being judged for poverty, they are seen as placing beings weaker than themselves in danger. I worry about the cats. The children will land some place, the cats will be euthanized.
Amen and amen.
Armies of earnest social workers don't make me feel any safer. I've seen a little too much in the media of obvious abuse being ignored while well-meaning parents are harassed. Maybe they get it right sometimes; one would hope.
And those poor cats, being shut up in a big dark box full of gas fumes, being mauled by a gang of feral urchins. I hope they end up in the cushiest no-kill shelter possible.
gimmethesimplelife
12-2-12, 10:32pm
Amen and amen.
Armies of earnest social workers don't make me feel any safer. I've seen a little too much in the media of obvious abuse being ignored while well-meaning parents are harassed. Maybe they get it right sometimes; one would hope.
And those poor cats, being shut up in a big dark box full of gas fumes, being mauled by a gang of feral urchins. I hope they end up in the cushiest no-kill shelter possible.Here's hoping those cats end out at Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah.....a nicer cushier no-kill shelter I can not think of.....Rob
there's actually a lot of corruption in teh child services these days. it's a nightmare. honestly. i say keep the government out unless it's the last possible option, to be sure. goodness knows.
i hope this family gets to keep their children, truly I do. this sort of negligent act is enough to have them taken from their parents, even if their parents are quite loving an dcapable indeed. Save for this foolish act. One would hope.
Wildflower
12-3-12, 5:53am
But you were not, were you? So why worry about it?
You have to worry about such things when you're raising kids. If someone deems your situation unsuitable, even if the kids are happy, loved, clean, clothed, and well-fed, they can still be taken away from the parents...
There were a few times when I was raising my own kids that I worried about it myself.
Wildflower
12-3-12, 6:12am
[QUOTE=CathyA;116028]
If you don't have enough education to get the type of job to support 7 children and 18 cats, then you shouldn't have them.
Go ahead and call me heartless. Do you want to live in a world with lots of these types of people? Do you want to support them and their poor choices?
If seeing this type of thing weren't so common, I wouldn't be so concerned, and might be able to feel more compassion. Even "poor" people can make better choices. QUOTE]
What are these types of people?
It is possible the parents had jobs that supported their family just fine until the economy went bad. I know several people that have lost jobs in the past few years and haven't been able to get another comparable one no matter what their education level is.
CathyA, have you ever been really poor? I always notice those that haven't experienced living in poverty or growing up in poverty just don't have a clue. No offense.
In the past we've had up to 10 cats and 4 dogs in our house at one time. All of them rescues. Our house is small. But it was clean, and the animals were well fed and healthy. And you can be sure that if we had to move for employment we would have taken them with us....
Those kids were probably fine if they were dressed warm enough. They probably were enjoying their big adventure. The gas can is not smart however, but I imagine the parents brought it along for in case they ran out of gas to get them to the nearest gas station. I would say someone didn't think that one through....
Abusive parents that leave their kids in hot cars to die, and bruise and break little one's bones should go to prison for life in my opinion. But those that are just trying to do the best they can for their family in dire circumstances need a helping hand, not judgement in my opinion.
Miss Cellane
12-3-12, 7:18am
I think "feral urchins" is a bit harsh on the kids.
Look, we don't know what the family's circumstances were when those 7 kids were conceived. It's perfectly possible that they had a stay at home mom and and a dad who made enough to support a family of nine. And then the dad got laid off and things went south from there.
No, I don't think putting 7 kids and 18 cats in the back of a moving van was a good idea. But without knowing the circumstances that led the family to make such a decision, how do we know that they deserve our scorn? Maybe they deserve our sympathy.
I've been pretty broke. Got laid off 5 years ago and still haven't found permanent, full-time employment. I've survived on savings which are long gone now, and temp jobs, and freelancing, and a few contract jobs here and there. It sucks. Big time. And those times that I've been really desperate, with no rent money and very little food or gas money, I made some decisions that seemed logical at the time, or the only possible decision at the time. Looking back, I can realize that maybe they weren't such great decisions, but I was desperate.
Instead of heaping scorn on these parents, maybe we should look to what in our society has led to this? That people felt this was their only hope? Their only way to keep the family together?
Wildflower and Miss Cellane.........you bring up some good points to think about.
rodeosweetheart
12-3-12, 8:25am
Iris, he had the Sprite, like this one (same color, prob around same year):
http://video.search.yahoo.com/video/play;_ylt=A2KLqIMjmrxQhzEAi5b7w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTBrc3 VyamVwBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDdmlkBHZ0aWQD?p=austin+healey +sprite&vid=a86d979d1eba44cfb34541533d275239&l=1%3A18&turl=http%3A%2F%2Fts3.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DV.47 07267751378970%26pid%3D15.1&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DCC QgvlkmNco&tit=1966+Austin+Healey+Sprite&c=2&sigr=11adelh88&&tt=b
Wow, that engine sound REALLY took me back. He supercharged it. . .
I worked as a social worker for nearly two decades, half that time for the state. I worked in shelters, and with pregnant teens. Contrary to the disrespectful "nanny g" references, the large majority of social workers are in programs that people seek out. We assisted homeless families to get stable, & teens to have healthy babies. I left the field because the pay was so bad for the amount of stress.
A good social worker would be an important resource for this family.
"I think "feral urchins" is a bit harsh on the kids."
Yeah--hyperbole, for sure.
A couple of generations ago, this kind of thing wouldn't be news. It doesn't sound like any urchins were harmed in the process of moving, and since these aren't the Romneys, they probably didn't have access to multiple cars for the trip. At least they didn't strap the cats to the top of the van, which would have been much worse, IMO.
Also a few generations ago, people--poor or not--regularly had platoons of children and their pets had litters at will. So it's more like this family was living in a kind of time warp than anything else. My family moved a hundred miles in a car with three people, a cat, a dog, two box tortoises, and a bowl full of salamanders when I was a kid. A relative of mine had sixteen cats (maybe more) at one time. Times change.
There was a big flap here recently when a local columnist admitted she let her eight year old sit in the car alone (with a cell phone) while she dashed into the library to pick up books. Half the commenters wanted to have her arrested. Really. There's a happy medium here somewhere.
Hummm....I wonder. What if we were reading about a terrible accident involving this van of kids and cats and gas instead of simply reading about them being stopped? What if this van rolled, or was slammed into by a big rig, cats and kids and gas and all those heavy boxes and furniture flying around back there? What would the consensus be then? Would anyone here say, 'well, they clearly had no choice but to put those kids and cats and everything else back there?' No choice at all.
I'm just asking. I can't really judge as I don't have the whole story, but I do know hindsight is 20/20. There is always an option. And yes, for the record, I rode in the back of pick ups, on running boards, and I'm ashamed to say my mother even put a few kids in the trunk for a short trip once when there were more kids than seats. And she an OR nurse who certainly saw her share of tragedy from car accidents! No, nothing happened, but it was a total lapse in judgement none the less.
We can make sympathetic noises as long as nothing happens, but if that truck had been in an accident, I think the opinion here would be very different. Stuff happens. Of course it does. Life is like that. But when you set yourself up for terrible stuff to happen, then I find myself a little short on sympathy. I think the ones here who feel no sympathy aren't saying they don't sympathize with being poor. I think they don't sympathize with the tragedy that could have happened, that had absolutely nothing to do with being poor.
People do what they have to do. Why doesn't that also include keeping your kids safe?
The Storyteller
12-3-12, 3:53pm
Pretty clear not a lot of people on this board grew up poor, or have a clue what it is like. Stuff like this was routine in my childhood.
This is most definitely a class thing.
The Storyteller
12-3-12, 3:56pm
I think "feral urchins" is a bit harsh on the kids.
But pretty dang funny.
And I speak as a former feral urchin.
Pretty clear not a lot of people on this board grew up poor, or have a clue what it is like. Stuff like this was routine in my childhood. This is most definitely a class thing.
Definitely. Thank you for naming this.
I would disagree. I don't think its a class thing........for me, its a parent thing.
I totally agree with what Peggy said. They were going thousands of miles, not just down the road. Maybe pulling these people over saved their lives.
We had an incident near here a couple years ago when guys who were painting for the day were in the back of a box truck, with all their paint, thinner, etc. someone lit up a cigarette and it blew up and they couldn't escape. Only 1 person survived, who was burned horribly.
Yes, its a shame he lost his job. Its a shame they didn't have a car. Its a shame and I feel really bad for them, but they took a huge risk to their children to travel a couple thousand miles for a job prospect that wasn't even certain. He could have gone out there himself first, to make sure he could get work there.........or he could have looked closer to home for another job.
The father himself said he had thought it was a bad idea to do this.
The Storyteller
12-3-12, 4:50pm
We routinely rode long distances in the backs of trucks, covered or otherwise, and nobody thought a thing about it. We just did what we had to do.
It is most certainly about class. Anybody who doesn't think it is didn't grow up poor. Not really.
I think it's possible to have both scorn and sympathy in this situation.
We routinely rode long distances in the backs of trucks, covered or otherwise, and nobody thought a thing about it. We just did what we had to do.
It is most certainly about class. Anybody who doesn't think it is didn't grow up poor. Not really.
I disagree. Unless you are trying to say poor people don't have the 'parent' instinct. Or for some reason are excused from exercising that. Being poor really has nothing to do with taking care of your kids, as a previous poster showed, giving her example of living in a camper, yet her kids were safe and well cared for. In fact, saying that being poor means you just might put your kids in harms way is kind of an insult to all the many poor people who in fact take very good care of their kids and would never in a thousand years put their kids in such danger.
I'm not saying the kids weren't fed, or clothed. This went beyond merely taking care of your kids the best you can with limited resources. They didn't take care of their kids the best they could, as it turns out. Because the best they could would certainly include not stuffing them with 18 cats and boxes and furniture and gas in the back of a dark, cold box van. And that has nothing to do with being poor, but everything to do with taking care of your kids.
We all, of a certain age, rode in the back of trucks. It was the norm, and we really didn't give it much thought. We also fed small peanuts to babies, never wore seat belts, and sprayed DDT all over our neighborhoods every summer evening while the kids were out playing. We know better now. We are more aware.
And for the record, if this had been a well off family I would still have the same opinion. Would you?
I think it's possible to have both scorn and sympathy in this situation.
This is true.
The Storyteller
12-3-12, 6:06pm
I disagree. Unless you are trying to say poor people don't have the 'parent' instinct. Or for some reason are excused from exercising that. Being poor really has nothing to do with taking care of your kids, as a previous poster showed, giving her example of living in a camper, yet her kids were safe and well cared for. In fact, saying that being poor means you just might put your kids in harms way is kind of an insult to all the many poor people who in fact take very good care of their kids and would never in a thousand years put their kids in such danger.
I find this a remarkable comment coming from someone who spent 30 years as a military spouse. In all that time, were never in a third world country? And if you were, did you never in all that time see parents place their children in situations that we in the western middle class world would consider to be dangerous and ill-advised? And do you honestly think riding in the back of a truck has anything at all to do with instinct, or lack thereof? If so, why do you suggest you did so back in the day? And don't now because "we know better"?
One of the great ironies of many liberals I know is that they preach a great deal about having compassion for the poor where government programs are concerned, yet understand and care (truly care) so little about them, or what it actually means to be poor.
Which is understandable, I suppose. You have to live something to truly understand it. Still, it is a very odd thing.
Yes, so so so true.
...I see kids of affluent parents in danger because they are expected to be simply an extension of their parents' egos, and they are treated accordingly. I'm just as concerned about the fate of those kids but there's no police or social service workers to address that issue.
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-12, 10:55pm
Pretty clear not a lot of people on this board grew up poor, or have a clue what it is like. Stuff like this was routine in my childhood.
This is most definitely a class thing.Yes, I agree with you, it is a class thing. It makes me glad seeing some of the responses here that I come from the lower side of the equation, and that despite the pretty ideal taught to me when I was little that America is not about social classes, I knew differently by seventh grade. For this I count myself very lucky. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-12, 10:59pm
We routinely rode long distances in the backs of trucks, covered or otherwise, and nobody thought a thing about it. We just did what we had to do.
It is most certainly about class. Anybody who doesn't think it is didn't grow up poor. Not really.Funny thing too in my experience is once you have been poor, or at least driven to desparation, you never really see anything quite same way again. It is also much easier to lose faith in society and question everything.....Those who have not been there are quite likely not going to understand this, but I would not want to go back and change my past if I could - I know too much I would otherwise probably not know and this knowledge I have more than earned.....Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-3-12, 11:13pm
I remember one time when I was little my father was sober and fixed the Plymouth and we drove down to the suburbs of Boston - we were living in rural New Hampshire at the time - and visited an aunt of mine who was fairly well off. I remember how diminshed and almost bizarre my father looked surrounded the by the nice furniture, and how hard my mother was trying to be what she thought was classy. What sticks out the most for me though is when my aunt looked out her kitchen window and started complaining about the minority family next door, trying to figure out if they were violating any law so she could turn them in. I remember realizing that if I lived next door and she did not know me she would be doing the exact same thing - trying to somehow get me in trouble. As she said - "Those (fill in the minority) don't belong here."
Though it is not the same situation by far, I see some of my aunt in some of the responses. And I still kinda feel like that nine year old thinking how horrible people were and that people just don't get it.....already putting up walls and learning the dark side of human nature - but the dark side of the folks society actually approved of.
I wish we had more details of the background of the parents.....if they at one time had an income sufficient to support all the kids, and if they had a large lot at one time for all the cats. I'd also like to know the level of stability of the parents and if alcohol were indeed involved.....More than I would have asked at nine lol but so many details here seem to be missing. Rob
I find this a remarkable comment coming from someone who spent 30 years as a military spouse. In all that time, were never in a third world country? And if you were, did you never in all that time see parents place their children in situations that we in the western middle class world would consider to be dangerous and ill-advised? And do you honestly think riding in the back of a truck has anything at all to do with instinct, or lack thereof? If so, why do you suggest you did so back in the day? And don't now because "we know better"?
One of the great ironies of many liberals I know is that they preach a great deal about having compassion for the poor where government programs are concerned, yet understand and care (truly care) so little about them, or what it actually means to be poor.
Which is understandable, I suppose. You have to live something to truly understand it. Still, it is a very odd thing.
Well, this isn't a third world country, as it turns out, and yes, we DO know better. What exactly does poverty have to do with this total lack of parental judgement? Again, are you saying we should excuse poor parental choices because they are poor? Poverty does not equal poor parental judgement. That's an insult to poor people everywhere who are good parents. And comparing our country to third world countries and situations is a straw man argument. We also don't let 6 year olds work in factories. Just because it exists in the world doesn't make it OK. This wasn't a heartwarming story of some poor guy heading off for the promised land! There was no job waiting for him, just the maybe sorta possibility of a job. He DIDN'T have to endanger his kids, as it turns out.
I don't understand your truck riding analogy. We evolve. Society evolves. So you think we should ride in the back of trucks? Just because we used to?
Back when EVERYONE did it, I'm sure some said no, this is dangerous, but the norm, right or wrong, and mostly wrong, was to do it. Now days we ALL know this is dangerous and we don't do it. Well, it doesn't take a brain surgeon, or a wealthy person, to know stuffing 7 kids and 18 cats and furniture and boxes and gasoline in the back of a cold, dark box van is dangerous.
You accuse me of prejudice, yet it is a certain kind of prejudice that says 'oh these poor people don't have what it takes to know this is dangerous, so let's give them a pass'. Isn't that kind of saying they are too stupid to know? Well, maybe they are. The fact that they have 18 cats kind of proves lack of judgement. What do you think it costs to feed all those cats? Do you think the cost of feeding them for even a month could have, maybe, rented a car for a day?
I get the feeling that you are projecting onto these folks some baggage from your own childhood. No one here is judging these folks on their poverty, except a poverty of judgement. Even poor kids deserve parents with good judgement.
Sh*t happens.
http://thescoopblog.dallasnews.com/2012/08/at-least-four-children-dead-after-highway-crash-near-canton.html/
Ok, well I've read more on this and I just have to say, these are not intelligent, rationally functioning people. I'm sorry. I refuse to pretend this is just a case of good, honest, hard working people with a bit of bad luck. These are people who should have never had kids and just stuck with the cats. And I'm pretty sure if these folks had money they would still be poor parents.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 12:03am
Peggy, couldn't get your link to work and shoot I really wanted to get more details.....Rob My bad....I did get your link to work but it does not seem to be about this specific family the OP posted about.....I was so hoping to get more details. Rob
Peggy, I think the point attempted to be made is that poverty often takes away choices. What if they've tried everything else and this is the bottom of the barrel? A last try at success I don't think they didn't know it was dangerous because they were poor. I'm saying, perhaps, just perhaps, they were out of options. When you don't have options you just do things sometimes, knowing it's not the best choice. Could be they didn't know what else to do. I think that's a huge difference. It's like saying that poor people who have their heat turned off because they can't pay the bill are endangering their children because they had another choice.
Peggy, couldn't get your link to work and shoot I really wanted to get more details.....Rob My bad....I did get your link to work but it does not seem to be about this specific family the OP posted about.....I was so hoping to get more details. Rob
Six minor children and one adult daughter were in the care of the Indiana Department of Child Services and will be picked up by a relative, said Indiana State Police Sgt. John Bowling. Authorities suspect five of the couple’s seven children were riding in the back of the truck.
The couple was arrested Wednesday night as they were driving through New Castle, Ind., on their way to California. They’re being held at the Henry County Jail and bond has been set at $5,000.
The Detjens told troopers the family was moving to California for a job opportunity, Bowling said Thursday.
“They were down on their luck for sure,” Bowling said. “They didn’t have a car. This was a last-ditch effort to follow up on a possible job in San Bernardino (in California). But it still was an unwise decision (to allow family members to travel in the cargo area).The dad has told investigators he knew it was a bad idea.”
Initially, Bowling said, state troopers who arrested the Detjens on Wednesday and impounded the truck did not believe the five family members in the back — one adult daughter and four minor children — had any means of staying in touch with the parents. They now believe they were wrong on that presumption.
“Troopers did discover two cell phones back there,” Bowling said. “We think they were able to communicate.”
Also in the back of the truck, along with boxes of family belongings: 18 cats in pet carriers. They were in the care of Henry County Animal Control on Thursday.
Temperatures were below freezing here Wednesday night, but cold wasn’t the only danger to the kids and cats. Boston Children’s Hospital advises against riding in the cargo area of trucks, including enclosed pickups, because of the potential for carbon-monoxide poisoning from exhaust fumes.
The travelers had heavy clothing and sleeping bags with them, but the back of the truck was cold, Bowling said
http://www.pressconnects.com/article/20121130/NEWS01/311300056/Pa-couple-face-neglect-charges-hauling-kids-moving-van
Wildflower
12-4-12, 4:05am
In my childhood this wouldn't have been a crime. From reading the above it sounds like a desperate Dad that has run out of options. Sometimes when you get to that point you're not thinking clearly. I have been there, raising two kids, my DH lost his job in the 80's in a layoff due to a bad economy then. He job hunted everyday. Our kids were so young, a baby and a toddler at the time. We were so young too. Barely out of our teens. I worked parttime doing what I could. I hadn't been to college yet, so never made much at that time. His unemployment ran out, we had gone through our savings. We paid our bills one day, but had to choose between buying food and paying utilties. We decided it was better to feed our kids. Then we didn't have heat or lights, they turned them off because we couldn't pay our bill. No one cared and no one offered help. I remember. It was hard times. We got through them, but I was always worried someone would report us and authorities would take our kids away because we couldn't support them adequately....
Miss Cellane
12-4-12, 8:08am
It could be that the family had some money--maybe enough to pay one month's rent where they were, or enough to get them to California. If there there no job prospects at home and the chance of a job in California, with I think some family there as well, I can understand why they took the gamble to move.
Look, when you have a job and have a temporary cash flow problem, there's no harm in telling people. Say you start a new job and the first paycheck is delayed. You go to your landlord and explain the problem and work something out--because you know you have money coming, it just isn't here yet. Even if the landlord makes you pay a late fee, it's okay, because you will have the money to pay it.
When you are broke and unemployed, it's different. You don't want the landlord finding out that you are broke and unemployed, because you don't want to get evicted. So you do whatever it takes to scrounge up the money to pay the rent. You don't have the money to pay late fees. You may not have the money to pay the utility bill.
It's a very different mindset. Long term planning takes a back seat to the immediate issue of survival, of holding on one more week, one more month, in hopes that something will turn up. You do things to get the money *now*, that might not be the best long term solution, but that solves the problem that is staring you in the face. Then you move on to the next problem, and the next one. It is exhausting, because there is never a moment when you are not worried about money, about bills, about paying the rent.
Again, I'm not saying this family did the right thing. Even the father admits putting the children in the back of the truck was not a good idea. I'm just saying I can understand how the family might have gotten to this point.
My link Rob was to a story in Texas where several kids died in a van roll over because they were all stuffed into a van on their way to the beach, or something, and there were more people than seats or seat belts. I believe 5 children died in that accident. I'm guessing the parents didn't plan for this to happen. I'm pretty sure when they took off that morning and one of the kids said, 'I don't have a seat belt', one of the adults said, 'don't worry, nothing is going to happen'. The point of the link is to show that stuff happens. Bad stuff happens. Sure, we often get a do over in life when we make bad choices, but sometimes there is no do over. If that box van had rolled and those 7 kids were killed, would you still be saying how they had no choice? Or would you be angry that those parents put their kids in danger. And apparently poverty also says you can't clean up cat crap cause the reports said the back of the van was filled with feces. I guess they had no choice there either.
How about this. How about the father going to California, by himself, and seeing if there actually was a job. Then send for the family, and the cats and the gas. This is what people do who are actually thinking right. And this is what people have done for ages. Dad goes off to find work while mom and kids stay put until there is a place to go to. There was a choice. And people have been making this choice for centuries. Being poor doesn't make you stupid, or forget your obligations to your children.
But, if you all want to say being poor absolves you of good parental judgement, then go ahead.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 10:37am
My link Rob was to a story in Texas where several kids died in a van roll over because they were all stuffed into a van on their way to the beach, or something, and there were more people than seats or seat belts. I believe 5 children died in that accident. I'm guessing the parents didn't plan for this to happen. I'm pretty sure when they took off that morning and one of the kids said, 'I don't have a seat belt', one of the adults said, 'don't worry, nothing is going to happen'. The point of the link is to show that stuff happens. Bad stuff happens. Sure, we often get a do over in life when we make bad choices, but sometimes there is no do over. If that box van had rolled and those 7 kids were killed, would you still be saying how they had no choice? Or would you be angry that those parents put their kids in danger. And apparently poverty also says you can't clean up cat crap cause the reports said the back of the van was filled with feces. I guess they had no choice there either.
How about this. How about the father going to California, by himself, and seeing if there actually was a job. Then send for the family, and the cats and the gas. This is what people do who are actually thinking right. And this is what people have done for ages. Dad goes off to find work while mom and kids stay put until there is a place to go to. There was a choice. And people have been making this choice for centuries. Being poor doesn't make you stupid, or forget your obligations to your children.
But, if you all want to say being poor absolves you of good parental judgement, then go ahead.Peggy, I agree with you it would have been better for the father to go out to Cal, get a job, and then send for the kids and the wife and the cats. This is how I would handle such a situation but then again at the moment I am not desperate. As i have said before, unless you have been there, it's not likely you are going to understand. What I have learned from these posts here is amazing - seriously - I am now even more wary of this society and wonder what I am doing here.....if it is a crime to be poor, and if the police can get involved and charge you with a felony and take your kids away - is this a country I want to be part of, having experienced poverty and desperation myself? I just feel utterly hopeless from so many of these posts - and it what makes it even worse is I believe the posters are well meaning and well intentioned, too. They just don't get it as they have not been there before. Something to be very very very afraid of methinks. Rob
sweetana3
12-4-12, 11:18am
We were driving from Ohio to Indiana during the day Sunday and saw two accidents and one very near accident. Just what would everyone say if they had an accident and then the relatives said, "well we called the authorities and they DID NOTHING". The police and CPS are damned if they do and damned if they dont. None of us have the info on why they did it or what is now being discussed with them or who is helping them.
We have made numerous trips cross country and always passed a variety of fairly serious accidents. Worst ones were the semi accidents but one roll over smashed RV on the NY thruway was horrible.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 11:22am
I just had another thought - now that these parents have been charged with a felony, whenever they are done with criminal justice system, how are they going to get a job other than being self employed? What a horrible, horrible situation.....and how utterly hopeless the majority seems to be siding with the arrests and not asking for the whys and the details and the specifics. Rob
iris lily
12-4-12, 11:47am
I just had another thought - now that these parents have been charged with a felony, whenever they are done with criminal justice system, how are they going to get a job other than being self employed? What a horrible, horrible situation.....and how utterly hopeless the majority seems to be siding with the arrests and not asking for the whys and the details and the specifics. Rob
You are reading way too much into these comments, and they seem to be upsetting you in a way that goes beyond normal. Please consider stepping back from it for your own mental health.
In the grand scheme of things it's really not a big deal that this family piled kids and pets into a truck (no one was hurt) and that others are commenting on, among other things, unsafe conditions. Probably they would have made it just fine to California had they not been stopped for this routine police check.
How about this. How about the father going to California, by himself, and seeing if there actually was a job. Then send for the family, and the cats and the gas. This is what people do who are actually thinking right. And this is what people have done for ages. Dad goes off to find work while mom and kids stay put until there is a place to go to. There was a choice.
Did I miss something? Is there something in the printed information or news that says they had this option? That there was a place to stay? That there was, as you say, a choice? Any other choice at all? Did they have money? A way to keep going while dad was away? I'm open to hearing about these other choices.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 12:43pm
You are reading way too much into these comments, and they seem to be upsetting you in a way that goes beyond normal. Please consider stepping back from it for your own mental health.
In the grand scheme of things it's really not a big deal that this family piled kids and pets into a truck (no one was hurt) and that others are commenting on, among other things, unsafe conditions. Probably they would have made it just fine to California had they not been stopped for this routine police check.Perhaps Iris Lilly. I am taking it rather personally I will give you that.
The fact does remain - you can see this if you scroll up and read the link under Tiam's post - that the parents are in jail charged with a felony - that's not just going to go away and for me personally, I have to ponder the morals and ethics of it. Though it is hard to as there are not enough details. But when I was much younger I could have been in the back of the truck myself.....I'll always see things from the back of the truck to some degree I'm afraid. I guess you can take Rob out of the back of the truck but you can't take the back of the truck out of Rob - or the moving van, in this case. But yeah I should have more details before I take it so personally, I would agree with that, too. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 12:46pm
Did I miss something? Is there something in the printed information or news that says they had this option? That there was a place to stay? That there was, as you say, a choice? Any other choice at all? Did they have money? A way to keep going while dad was away? I'm open to hearing about these other choices.+1
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-12, 1:11pm
Even when people have money it doesn't mean they make better choices. That's really not how mental illness works.
Perhaps Iris Lilly. I am taking it rather personally I will give you that.
The fact does remain - you can see this if you scroll up and read the link under Tiam's post - that the parents are in jail charged with a felony - that's not just going to go away and for me personally, I have to ponder the morals and ethics of it. Though it is hard to as there are not enough details. But when I was much younger I could have been in the back of the truck myself.....I'll always see things from the back of the truck to some degree I'm afraid. I guess you can take Rob out of the back of the truck but you can't take the back of the truck out of Rob - or the moving van, in this case. But yeah I should have more details before I take it so personally, I would agree with that, too. Rob
Rob, I totally get where you're coming from....just wanted to say. Bless you and your strength/courage.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 1:44pm
Rob, I totally get where you're coming from....just wanted to say. Bless you and your strength/courage.Thank You! This really means a lot to me. Truly.
I can't change the world, or society - but at least I can speak my truth about something I have experienced before - poverty and desperation. Thank you for supporting me in this.....Rob
Peggy, I agree with you it would have been better for the father to go out to Cal, get a job, and then send for the kids and the wife and the cats. This is how I would handle such a situation but then again at the moment I am not desperate. As i have said before, unless you have been there, it's not likely you are going to understand. What I have learned from these posts here is amazing - seriously - I am now even more wary of this society and wonder what I am doing here.....if it is a crime to be poor, and if the police can get involved and charge you with a felony and take your kids away - is this a country I want to be part of, having experienced poverty and desperation myself? I just feel utterly hopeless from so many of these posts - and it what makes it even worse is I believe the posters are well meaning and well intentioned, too. They just don't get it as they have not been there before. Something to be very very very afraid of methinks. Rob
No Rob, it isn't a crime to be poor. But that's also NOT what they were arrested for. They weren't arrested for being poor. They were arrested for being crappy parents and putting their kids into a potentially dangerous position.
You are clearly projecting on to me something I never said, or believed. I never once criticized them for being poor. I never said it was a crime to be poor. I never said they were bad parents because they are poor. I said they are bad parents because they are bad parents. The fact that they also happen to be poor is besides the point.
What bothers me is the number of people who are so willing to give them a pass because they are poor. Pile all those kids and cats into an expensive SUV, and are we having the same discussion? Are they given a pass when that SUV rolls and 5 kids are killed? What choice did they have?
Well, I guess you could reasonable say they had the choice to not go to the beach that day if they didn't have more than one car. And this family had the choice to send dad on to search for a job, in California or Oregon, or Ohio, or where ever he could find one without the added baggage of 7 kids and 18 cats in a rented truck to take care of while you are looking.
Presumably they were somewhere..they started somewhere. Surely there was a neighbor, or church, or charity that would look after the kids and cats while dad looked for a job. And what was going to happen when they got to where they were going? it was a rented truck, right? Just dump their stuff on the sidewalk and return the truck? And then do what? with all your 7 kids and 18 cats and no place to put them? Why, having all your belongings and 18 cats pretty much guarantees you won't get a place in a shelter. But dad alone, looking for work, could concentrate on that task and probably find a place to sleep.
Their situation in Indiana, or where ever it was they were stopped, is no more tenuous than it would be at the end of their trip. They are still homeless, jobless and caring for 7 kids and 18 cats, but without the stability of place.
I think you are fighting ghosts Rob. I'm not the cold hearted person you keep trying to make me. Haven't you talked enough with me on these boards to know how I feel? How many times have I been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal?
I am sorry you had a bad childhood, and I'm glad to see you have managed to overcome that. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. I said they were crappy parents with really bad choices, and you said they made bad choices. We agree. And this wasn't just an isolated incident with these folks, apparently. They exhibited a pattern of poor choices. At what income level do we stop making excuses and call it for what it is?
If the parents had only cut a hole between the cab and the box and let the kids (at least one of which is actually an adult) sit on a sofa, they could have called the vehicle an RV and all would have been right with the world.
As I suspected, the family is now separated, and it is unlikely that they will see their children again. And those children are now scattered into foster care -- unlikely to see each other again. And that is the great tragedy of this folly.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 2:23pm
No Rob, it isn't a crime to be poor. But that's also NOT what they were arrested for. They weren't arrested for being poor. They were arrested for being crappy parents and putting their kids into a potentially dangerous position.
You are clearly projecting on to me something I never said, or believed. I never once criticized them for being poor. I never said it was a crime to be poor. I never said they were bad parents because they are poor. I said they are bad parents because they are bad parents. The fact that they also happen to be poor is besides the point.
What bothers me is the number of people who are so willing to give them a pass because they are poor. Pile all those kids and cats into an expensive SUV, and are we having the same discussion? Are they given a pass when that SUV rolls and 5 kids are killed? What choice did they have?
Well, I guess you could reasonable say they had the choice to not go to the beach that day if they didn't have more than one car. And this family had the choice to send dad on to search for a job, in California or Oregon, or Ohio, or where ever he could find one without the added baggage of 7 kids and 18 cats in a rented truck to take care of while you are looking.
Presumably they were somewhere..they started somewhere. Surely there was a neighbor, or church, or charity that would look after the kids and cats while dad looked for a job. And what was going to happen when they got to where they were going? it was a rented truck, right? Just dump their stuff on the sidewalk and return the truck? And then do what? with all your 7 kids and 18 cats and no place to put them? Why, having all your belongings and 18 cats pretty much guarantees you won't get a place in a shelter. But dad alone, looking for work, could concentrate on that task and probably find a place to sleep.
Their situation in Indiana, or where ever it was they were stopped, is no more tenuous than it would be at the end of their trip. They are still homeless, jobless and caring for 7 kids and 18 cats, but without the stability of place.
I think you are fighting ghosts Rob. I'm not the cold hearted person you keep trying to make me. Haven't you talked enough with me on these boards to know how I feel? How many times have I been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal?
I am sorry you had a bad childhood, and I'm glad to see you have managed to overcome that. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. I said they were crappy parents with really bad choices, and you said they made bad choices. We agree. And this wasn't just an isolated incident with these folks, apparently. They exhibited a pattern of poor choices. At what income level do we stop making excuses and call it for what it is?Peggy, ouch, I really was not trying to trash you, really I was not. My concerns have to do with folks - and you are not the only one here so please don't feel singled out - passing quick judgement on these parents wihout knowing more details. As i posted above, when I was little I could have been in the back of the truck myself. Once you have been poor and desperate, you know what it is like - those who have not been there.....walk a mile in the shoes of those who have, then pass judgement. Just sayin'. And I still think there are not enough details of what led to this unfortunate situation to pass judgement on either way - my way included. I guess I'm just hypervigilant because I know what it's like - not to be in this specific situation, but to be poor and desperate and looked down on as if it were completely my fault. I'm thinking that a lot of my feeling that this society is a poor fit for me may very well be due to what I have experienced in my past and yes have managed to overcome - and BTW thank for your kind words about this. I do appreciate that. Problem is, for me anyway, having experienced that I started thinking and evualating and comparison shopping other societies, pondering ok maybe this is how things are but does this work for me, am I ok with this, is this acceptable as far as I am concerned. Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think most people in their everyday lives do this - I'm sure it helps that I have never had kids as kids would have taken up a great deal of time that I have used to do this.
Once again, we don't know all the factors behind this unfortunate situation. It could perhaps be something where I would be less inclined to feel this way - at the moment from what I have seen here I don't know. Rob
Not to flog a dead horse........but in this article, it says that the father plead guilty to child endangerment in 2006. :(
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/indiana/Authorities-Couple-drove-400-miles-with-kids-in-box-truck/-/13610848/17598346/-/1412t8kz/-/index.html
If the parents had only cut a hole between the cab and the box and let the kids (at least one of which is actually an adult) sit on a sofa, they could have called the vehicle an RV and all would have been right with the world.
Ya. Class issue.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 2:32pm
As I suspected, the family is now separated, and it is unlikely that they will see their children again. And those children are now scattered into foster care -- unlikely to see each other again. And that is the great tragedy of this folly.Yes.....this is indeed a tragedy, and it remains to be seen how the parents make out know having a felony on the records, how the children end out in foster care, and how many if any of the cats are put down.....just a tragedy. All for one phone call.....and we don't know, perhaps the father would have found work in California? It's possible, who knows? And the costs involved to now house the felonious parents, and the costs that may (or may not) arise in the future if the kids act out due possible continued instabilities in their lives due to foster care.....all for one phone call. As I have said, I don't know the circumstances behind all of this - none of us do at the moment - but I am chilled anyway that so much damage can be had for one phone call. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 2:38pm
Not to flog a dead horse........but in this article, it says that the father plead guilty to child endangerment in 2006. :(
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/indiana/Authorities-Couple-drove-400-miles-with-kids-in-box-truck/-/13610848/17598346/-/1412t8kz/-/index.htmlOk....ok.....ok I back down a bit.....though we don't know the details, it does seem as if there is a pattern here. With that I am willing to step down a bit off the soapbox other than to say there is not always a pattern and please don't auto-judge the poor. Just sayin'. But yeah if there is a pattern, dating back to 2006 (when the economy was much better), then I would agree there are other issues/bad long term choices at play here. It now seems much more reasonable to me to assume this. So off the soapbox for a bit.
But those poor cats and poor kids and what happens to the parents themselves when they emerge from the criminal justice system unemployable? Rob
Did I miss something? Is there something in the printed information or news that says they had this option? That there was a place to stay? That there was, as you say, a choice? Any other choice at all? Did they have money? A way to keep going while dad was away? I'm open to hearing about these other choices.
Well, presumably they were somewhere. They started somewhere. And yes, of course they had a choice.
Well, if they didn't have money to keep going while dad was away, how were they going to keep going in a rented truck with 7 kids and 18 cats? Dumped on a sidewalk in Hollywood? Were there no jobs between where they started, and clear across the country? None? Did he even look? Could he have stopped in, oh, St Louis, or Kansas City, or Chicago if he felt he needed a big city to find work? And what about cost of living? Did these out of work parents with their 7 kids and 18 cats even think about how much more it would cost for just about everything in California? Rents? I mean, if they couldn't come up with the money for a car, or even rent a car to get all their kids and cats to California, how would they come up with a couple of thousand dollars for deposits (lots of deposits if they could even find a place to rent to them, which I doubt) and first months rents? Do you think they thought about any of this?
These folks may be poor, but the real poverty is in thinking skills. And parental ability. Do they need help? You're damn right they do. They need mental health support, parental classes, and some stability for their kids in schooling and counseling. And they need a place, not a sidewalk in one of the most expensive cities/states in the nation. He needs job counseling, in a more reasonable area of the country, and they need to make a stable home for their kids. And they need to get rid of some of the cats. If they can't afford 7 kids they sure as heck can't afford 18 cats.
There. There are some choices, and many of the more important ones won't cost them anything other than the will to follow through, and decision to do the right thing. And they can start right there, where they were arrested. Or maybe up the road just a bit if they need a bigger city. But all those services, including welfare and food stamps, and food banks/kitchens, and shelters, and jobs programs, are right there, in Indiana.
I'm out of this discussion. I can't believe I am being attacked for standing up for good parental choices, or even just basic parental choices of safety and welfare of your kids. I guess I'm the only one who can see that these are bad parents with a history of bad choices.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 2:51pm
Well, presumably they were somewhere. They started somewhere. And yes, of course they had a choice.
Well, if they didn't have money to keep going while dad was away, how were they going to keep going in a rented truck with 7 kids and 18 cats? Dumped on a sidewalk in Hollywood? Were there no jobs between where they started, and clear across the country? None? Did he even look? Could he have stopped in, oh, St Louis, or Kansas City, or Chicago if he felt he needed a big city to find work? And what about cost of living? Did these out of work parents with their 7 kids and 18 cats even think about how much more it would cost for just about everything in California? Rents? I mean, if they couldn't come up with the money for a car, or even rent a car to get all their kids and cats to California, how would they come up with a couple of thousand dollars for deposits (lots of deposits if they could even find a place to rent to them, which I doubt) and first months rents? Do you think they thought about any of this?
These folks may be poor, but the real poverty is in thinking skills. And parental ability. Do they need help? You're damn right they do. They need mental health support, parental classes, and some stability for their kids in schooling and counseling. And they need a place, not a sidewalk in one of the most expensive cities/states in the nation. He needs job counseling, in a more reasonable area of the country, and they need to make a stable home for their kids. And they need to get rid of some of the cats. If they can't afford 7 kids they sure as heck can't afford 18 cats.
There. There are some choices, and many of the more important ones won't cost them anything other than the will to follow through, and decision to do the right thing. And they can start right there, where they were arrested. Or maybe up the road just a bit if they need a bigger city. But all those services, including welfare and food stamps, and food banks/kitchens, and shelters, and jobs programs, are right there, in Indiana.
I'm out of this discussion. I can't believe I am being attacked for standing up for good parental choices, or even just basic parental choices of safety and welfare of your kids. I guess I'm the only one who can see that these are bad parents with a history of bad choices.I couldn't agree more with your second paragraph - only problem is by giving them a felony, are they going to get access to these services, and with background checks being done on almost all jobs today, how are they going to utilize these skills they would hopefully learn making a contribution to society in the workplace? But about the services, Bravo, I couldn't agree with you more. Rob
Not to condone or condemn their choices, but poverty has a way of severely limiting all options, good and bad. Sometimes the lesser of the evils really is the best choice available. For the dad to head out to CA and work and send money home until the rest of the family could join him is probably a pipe dream. That would mean maintaining two households, a family being separated, mom raising the kids alone, etc. It would be hard to do on the income of a lot of folks here and it doesn't sound like this guy was in line for a particularly high paying position at the other end.
Then there is the nanny state argument. When I was a kid we would have jumped at the chance to ride in the back of a truck like this (not that my parents would have let us, but still...). It would have been a great adventure, I think. They could communicate with the parents, were adequately dressed, had sleeping bags and although I didn't see for sure, I would guess they had some food and water. In no way ideal, but it doesn't strike me as neglect either. The gasoline part was stupid. The 18 cats is just...weird, but it at least sounds like they were cared for. Other than the gasoline it sounds like they were doing the best they could with what they had.
For perspective, my grandparents left Oklahoma in 1935 for California. My uncle, who was 6 at the time, spent the entire trip on the back end of a flat bed truck or riding with his feet on the bumper. While breathing in all the dust and exhaust it was his job to tell the driver if anything fell off. Twice it was him. He didn't have a seat belt, helmet, invisible plasma force field or anything else. I'm glad we do more to protect our children now, but kids can step outside the bubble and be just fine.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 3:00pm
+1 to Gregg's post. Rob
These folks may be poor, but the real poverty is in thinking skills
I tend to agree with this statement. Desperation, hunger, substance abuse, mental illness, lack of education or experience and many other things all affect our level of thinking and reasoning skills. Every day of my life I see or read about people doing what I consider to be stupid things. I have been poor and looking back it was almost entirely due to bad decisions - quitting a job when upset with nothing else in place, buying a house we could not afford, etc. It was never about money or class. My father was a well-paid doctor yet he would pile us in the car and drive around while raving drunk. I recall that fear in my stomach of being with an out of control adult. I don't wish that on any child. I don't know the answer but bringing more kids into the world in that situation seems like a bad decision.
I don't see how felony charges and foster care are going to make anything better for this family. The Libertarian in me thinks making help available is a much better idea than employing heavy-handed tactics, sundering the family, and making employment even less likely for the parents.
As far as people reproducing abundantly, I recently listened to a panel discussion wherein it was noted that our population is falling (as it is in so many developed countries--who knew women didn't necessarily want double-digit families), and if we didn't loosen up our immigration quotas, we were going to have a shortfall of young people to carry on.
That's hard to believe. I think, if anything, we will have a shortfall of intelligent people to carry on.
we don't know all the factors behind this unfortunate situation
never a truer word said, Rob... many complex factors feed into the apparently negligent decisions maginalized people make... affirming class and poverty have nothing to do with the poor decisions these parents made is disingenuous, at best... it's all too easy for the better off to pass judgment on the failings of the worse off, insisting that its all down to the low character of the individual... once you recognize that there are systemic structural factors at work, impeding their ability to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved ones, then uncomfortable issues like collective responsibility start to arise...
the saddest part for me is that they left family, only to have that family call the government, and then for the family to be separated.
are those children now being cared for b y the family in Indiana? if so, why didn't they just tell the couple "look, we'll keep the kids and the cats, why don't you two go to california and make a way for yourselves, and we'll be able to bring out the children later?"
instead -- and probably unknowingly -- the family opted to call the government on their family, who have to follow certain rules. That's the way it works.
family (or community) could have simply solved this problem in many ways, but instead they chose the government, which is simply going to tick through the rules until it's done.
sad.
ApatheticNoMore
12-4-12, 5:54pm
Not really, I've known plenty of wack-a-doodle in the middle class. I am not collectively responsible for all the drug addict parents on drugs, every parent leaving bruises on their kid in fits of rage, every weird uncle raping a 5 year old girl right now, or even all the hoarders whose houses pose everpresent danger to thier kids (which for some reason we like to judge harshly - but truck with gasoline and 20 cats is like a totally different story ... yep completely different ...). Hell, hell is for children.
instead -- and probably unknowingly -- the family opted to call the government on their family, who have to follow certain rules. That's the way it works.
family (or community) could have simply solved this problem in many ways, but instead they chose the government, which is simply going to tick through the rules until it's done.
sad.
oh there are dangers of getting "the authorities" involved. Many people don't take it seriously enough. But with enough dysfunction sometimes it becomes the only option.
family (or community) could have simply solved this problem in many ways, but instead they chose the government, which is simply going to tick through the rules until it's done.
sad.
Very sad. A perfect example of almost anything being a better option than government intervention. Here in Nebraska its often the churches that step up when a family needs help, but there are several other out-reach type organizations as well. I can't imagine Indiana is all that different. Does anyone know if there has been a fund or any kind of effort set up so people get some assistance to these folks?
There was news yesterday that the police stopped a moving van in Indiana.
It was being driven by a man whose wife and 2 of their 7 children were in the cab, but in the back were all their belongings, 5 children, 18 cats, and a container of gasoline. They were traveling form PA on their way to California, where they supposedly had relatives and the man was checking out a job. They apparently had stopped in eastern Indiana to visit relatives. One of the relatives called the police after they left to alert them of this horrible situation.
The back of the van was 32 degrees when the police opened it up. The children had sleeping bags......but had no way of communicating with their parents up in the cab.
What the hell is wrong with these people?
I realize that they are probably poor........but still. 18 cats? 7 kids? 5 kids in the back of a moving van with a container of gasoline?
What frightens me is that more and more of people like this are having large numbers of children. What is our country going to be like in 10-20 years?
How do we deal with this? :(
I've been watching Ken Burns "Dust Bowl" series on PBS and this sort of reminds me of the terrible travel conditions and road side hardships people in the late 20's and early 30's suffered as they "migrated" West with large families. Between the Dust Bowl and Great Depression, many large families headed west in deplorable conditions, starvation, squalor and danger in search of sometyhing better. Maybe this is just a more mechinized form of the same thing. When people lose their jobs and income and often life savings they may be forced to do things that they normally wouldn't do just temporarily to get to some "promised land".
ETA: if anyone hasn't seen the Dust Bowl series yet, watch it. It's a very eye-opening look at environmental damage and over farming coupled with a long term drought and the dire results that followed for many Americans. It certainly puts the abundance and social resources we have now, even for impoverished folks, into perspective. Or you could just read or watch "the Grapes Of Wrath" by Steinbeck.
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=1072&d=1354660355
I've been watching Ken Burns "Dust Bowl" series on PBS and this sort of reminds me of the terrible travel conditions and road side hardships people in the late 20's and early 30's suffered as they "migrated" West with large families. Between the Dust Bowl and Great Depression, many large families headed west in deplorable conditions, starvation, squalor and danger in search of sometyhing better. Maybe this is just a more mechinized form of the same thing. When people lose their jobs and income and often life savings they may be forced to do things that they normally wouldn't do just temporarily to get to some "promised land".
I keep thinking about SO's upbringing and that for weeks on-end there were times all they (he and 5 siblings, mother) ate every day was pancakes (he detests them now). Wonder if his mother would have been turned in for child abuse.
Somehow they all made it into adulthood healthy and productive save for one....I'd say that might be typical of any class of family.
I keep thinking about SO's upbringing and that for weeks on-end there were times all they (he and 5 siblings, mother) ate every day was pancakes (he detests them now). Wonder if his mother would have been turned in for child abuse.
Somehow they all made it into adulthood healthy and productive save for one....I'd say that might be typical of any class of family.
Yeah my grandparents on my Dad's side were Dust Bowl immigrants (AKA Okies!). Immigrated from Sweden to Nebraska, bought a farm in Kansas, then lost the farm, and everything they owned, in Kansas during the dust bowl and depression, and migrated to Calif. Grandma & Grandpa, with 4 young kids, lived and worked in a migrant farm labor camp until they were able to get better jobs. Grandma worked at a salon doing hair and Grandpa got a government job. Dad and sibs came out fine despite the early hardships of their youth. Living in conditions that would have triggered a call to child services nowadays even though they were taken care of by their parents.
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 9:35pm
never a truer word said, Rob... many complex factors feed into the apparently negligent decisions maginalized people make... affirming class and poverty have nothing to do with the poor decisions these parents made is disingenuous, at best... it's all too easy for the better off to pass judgment on the failings of the worse off, insisting that its all down to the low character of the individual... once you recognize that there are systemic structural factors at work, impeding their ability to make the best decisions for themselves and their loved ones, then uncomfortable issues like collective responsibility start to arise...Thank you Lucas. I have been there before - I learned at a young age there were structural factors at work, and I have never forgotten it. I also am 100% on the same page with you with collective responsibility - this is something I very much believe in - maybe it was pounded into my head by my mother who immigrated over here from Austria - there sure seems to be more of a sense of collective responsibility in Austria than the US (this is based on having personally lived there for three months once). I think in the US it is much more about personal responsibility - which sounds great on paper but when the deck is stacked against you, it doesn't play very well. I am grateful I learned this young, and I am also very glad I see things differently than the vast majority of Americans.....Don't get me wrong, personal responsibility in and of itself is a great thing - only problem is as more and more jobs get offshored and things continue to decline, more folks may wake up to collective responsiblity being more important. We will see, I don't read the future, we will see. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-4-12, 10:12pm
I don't see how felony charges and foster care are going to make anything better for this family. The Libertarian in me thinks making help available is a much better idea than employing heavy-handed tactics, sundering the family, and making employment even less likely for the parents.
As far as people reproducing abundantly, I recently listened to a panel discussion wherein it was noted that our population is falling (as it is in so many developed countries--who knew women didn't necessarily want double-digit families), and if we didn't loosen up our immigration quotas, we were going to have a shortfall of young people to carry on.+1
Well, presumably they were somewhere. They started somewhere. And None? Did he even look? Could he have stopped in, oh, St Louis, or Kansas City, or Chicago if he felt he needed a big city to find work? And what about cost of living? Did these out of work parents with their 7 kids and 18 cats even think about how much more it would cost for just about everything in California? Rents? I mean, if they couldn't come up with the money for a car, or even rent a car to get all their kids and cats to California, how would they come up with a couple of thousand dollars for deposits (lots of deposits if they could even find a place to rent to them, which I doubt) and first months rents? Do you think they thought about any of this?
These folks may be poor, but the real poverty is in thinking skills. And parental ability. Do they need help? You're damn right they do. They need mental health support, parental classes, and some stability for their kids in schooling and counseling. And they need a place, not a sidewalk in one of the most expensive cities/states in the nation. He needs job counseling, in a more reasonable area of the country, and they need to make a stable home for their kids. And they need to get rid of some of the cats. If they can't afford 7 kids they sure as heck can't afford 18 cats.
There. There are some choices, and many of the more important ones won't cost them anything other than the will to follow through, and decision to do the right thing. And they can start right there, where they were arrested. Or maybe up the road just a bit if they need a bigger city. But all those services, including welfare and food stamps, and food banks/kitchens, and shelters, and jobs programs, are right there, in Indiana.
I'm out of this discussion. I can't believe I am being attacked for standing up for good parental choices, or even just basic parental choices of safety and welfare of your kids. I guess I'm the only one who can see that these are bad parents with a history of bad choices.
I realize you are out of the discussion now. I'm certainly not attacking you, and I apologize if you thought I did. I don't feel that the point that they had "choices" was proven.
But this conversation has probably run it's course.
Yeah my grandparents on my Dad's side were Dust Bowl immigrants (AKA Okies!). Immigrated from Sweden to Nebraska, bought a farm in Kansas, then lost the farm, and everything they owned, in Kansas during the dust bowl and depression, and migrated to Calif. Grandma & Grandpa, with 4 young kids, lived and worked in a migrant farm labor camp until they were able to get better jobs. Grandma worked at a salon doing hair and Grandpa got a government job. Dad and sibs came out fine despite the early hardships of their youth. Living in conditions that would have triggered a call to child services nowadays even though they were taken care of by their parents.
People today who would live in such conditions as those in the dust bowl would no doubt be blamed for making bad parenting choices.
I think that's, in part, because it is a choice now.
Back then, cars were not the same. Getting around was not the same (even the roads were not the same). They had less knowledge of the relative safety than we do now. What was safe then is not safe these days.
I look at the cars my parents had -- that I remember. We had lap belts only in the back. Now, you have the same belt in the back as you have in the front -- even in the center seat. And then, there's air bags. Used to be, there weren't any. Then they were for the driver. Then the front seat. And now there are even side (from the ceiling) drop air bags. We have all kinds of technology now that we didn't ahve before -- and that's in cars.
So, here I drive a car that is 1994. It has front air bags only. The seat belt in the back/middle is lap only, whereas the other two are full. It has the "crumple guard" technology (which came about in the 1990s in regular production) but without the engine drop (for a head-on collision).
Honestly, a person CAN choose today to buy the safest souped up car -- should they be able to afford it -- or they can choose an old clunker or even an antique and fix it up. Antiques have a completely different set of rules for them -- and another set if you race the darn things (muscle cars) vs "sunday driving" them vs "road ready/compliant" for every-day driving. But even those antiques -- if you go back to pre 1980s cars really -- don't really have any special safety features required. They require you to drive more safely.
So, I look at those dust bowl pictures and I see people with pretty decent cars for the era -- if a bit old -- and they have what they can carry in it, and out they go. They didn't have other options, really, because what was *brand new* at the time wasn't much more fancy than what was old. Technology wasn't racing along n terms of safety.
And the roads? Most roads weren't paved until after WW2, so it's not like we could expect good, open, clear roads with comfortable signage and lines to demarcate the edges and such. Honestly. I'm just saying that back then, things were not the same.
Today, a person can choose, and another person can say "that's a bad parenting choice." We can judge it relatively.
And people do make this. Before DS was born -- and we were planning on him -- we got a prius. It's what we wanted. All of my firends were buying big ass minivans and SUVs for "the safety." Never mind the fact that studies indicate that they are less safe and a 140 lb woman and 10 lb infant do not need an unarmored military vehicle to get to aquababies and coffee klatch. But, you know, it's about SAFETY!
So the idea was that my prius -- which gets great marks for safety all around -- was "very unsafe" because of "all of those SUVs and minivans" on the roads "driving like mad" and "wouldn't you feel safer, wouldn't you realize you were safer if you were in an SUV too?"
At the end of the day, it's false to compare a dust-bowl drive (which my great grandmother made with her small children) to a modern family in a world where we have lots of different options.
At the end of the day, it's false to compare a dust-bowl drive (which my great grandmother made with her small children) to a modern family in a world where we have lots of different options.
I wouldn't say a comparison is false exactly, but things are different. People's expectations have changed as much as technology so that needs to be factored in. Regarding options, yes, most of us have a far greater range of options than our grandparents and great-grandparents did. The problem is that the folks in the OP (by all indication) didn't have a wide variety of options. People who get caught in a cycle of poverty don't have a wide variety of options. Sometimes they don't have any at all. When you get right down to it that's what makes poverty so debilitating.
The Storyteller
12-5-12, 9:43am
At the end of the day, it's false to compare a dust-bowl drive (which my great grandmother made with her small children) to a modern family in a world where we have lots of different options.
Of course. Because we have no people who are that poor in this country any more. And they have plenty of choices.
Why, they could choose to buy a brand new bigass SUV or Prius, instead.
I think you are right about one thing. People can choose, and others can say, "that's a bad parenting choice". And others can say, what a clueless thing to say.
It's all relative.
gimmethesimplelife
12-5-12, 11:11am
The last few posts have really made me think.....matter of fact this whole thread has as I usually don't get this into issues on this board. At least not to this level. One thing I can say is that having been poor and desperate in the past - this is one of my huge issues with American thinking and US society in general. Really I don't have the basic faith that hard work and thrift - both great qualities, mind you, quailities to be respected in my book - will keep me from a situation where my options and choices could get taken away from me. I just don't have that basic faith that I won't again be in a situation where I am looked down on and treated like something awful through no real fault of my own. It amazes me too how people don't think this through - with so many Americans being a paycheck or two away from homelessness, it amazes me that so many judge someone who has crossed that line. And that one I have found across a broad spectrum of society - though I will say those on the lower end, some of them not in denial tend to be a little kinder about it - but certainly not all. I hear of something like this story - and I just end out going through the motions. I will get up, go to my banquet shift, list things online, keep on keeping on with my day, but my heart's not in it, I'm just going through the motions. Quite likely as long as I stay in the US, this will be how it is for me, to some degree. Just wanted to pass along the long term effects and scarring of this kind of judgemental behavior - I am 46 now, it will never go away completely me thinks. My hope here is that just one person thinks before judging, then I will at least have done some good. Rob PS I figured since I have revealed some of my life history, I might as well attach a face to it - so this is me at the airport about to catch a flight to Austin.
ToomuchStuff
12-5-12, 12:17pm
People today who would live in such conditions as those in the dust bowl would no doubt be blamed for making bad parenting choices.
Some might. Shouldn't they say the same about the people who are living in New Orleans, after Katrina, or on the East coast now?
Precisely, Gregg.
When we look at pictures of the dustbowl, we are looking at pictures of a specific car, of a specific size, with specific driving and safety features that were -- more or less -- top of the line. Back then, people had the option between those cars and carts with horses (or other animals).
I don't know one person who doesn't own a refurbished antique who drives a car with only those features as they exist in those cars (and are eligible for the road in the modern era). Even poor people today (those who can have some kind of cars or vehicles) have far more safety features than those cars did. Likewise, the roads themselves are completely different. Driving on 2012 roads are completely different -- in terms of safety, relatively -- than driving on roads during the dust-bowl era, particularly from OK to CA (which my great grandmother did).
I am also not saying that they have as wide a variety of options as I did/do. Poverty is also very relative. This poverty -- where a family can rent a van to take their things and children across the country, pay for gas and food along the way (presumedly), is far greater wealth than the people living in a refugee camp in Darfur. Their families are in a very unsafe condition (at a lot of different levels) -- usually not through any fault of their own and with even more limited choices overall.
Obviously, I do not think the women of Darfur have that sort of "problem" that I faced from my upper-middle-class white american suburbanites. I was simply giving it as an example of the relativity (as Gregg points out) in our modern circumstance.
Example: if they family could rent a U-haul, why didn't they sell most possessions and rent a very large van to drive their children/cats across the country safely, leaving their "stuff" behind? It's an OPTION and it was a safer OPTION than the one that they chose. Yes, it also sucks for them as an option -- because I can udnerstand not wanting to give up what little you have and think you will need to start a new life. But, it was a CHOICE, poor or no.
Again, I haven't demonized these folks in any way, I'm just pointing out that the options that people had in the dust bowl era were very different than the options that poor people have now. So to compare those as "similar options and therefore ok" is false.
ApatheticNoMore
12-5-12, 2:58pm
Well the way I see it as soon as you bear responsibility for those even more helpless than yourself you can't just hide behind excuses of being helpless yourself. But I'm poor and have few options, that might be, but children with even fewer options than you (because they are dependent on their parents) are depending on you, for their basic safety even (which is the most basic job of a parent, keep the kids alive! Concern wtih safety can be taken too far, but this is not a case of that). It's one thing and somewhat sympathetic for adults to mess up their own lives due to horrible circumstances, even to mess up each others lives (!), they are afterall adults, children is a whole other matter.
The last few posts have really made me think.....matter of fact this whole thread has as I usually don't get this into issues on this board. At least not to this level. One thing I can say is that having been poor and desperate in the past - this is one of my huge issues with American thinking and US society in general. Really I don't have the basic faith that hard work and thrift - both great qualities, mind you, quailities to be respected in my book - will keep me from a situation where my options and choices could get taken away from me. I just don't have that basic faith that I won't again be in a situation where I am looked down on and treated like something awful through no real fault of my own. It amazes me too how people don't think this through - with so many Americans being a paycheck or two away from homelessness, it amazes me that so many judge someone who has crossed that line. And that one I have found across a broad spectrum of society - though I will say those on the lower end, some of them not in denial tend to be a little kinder about it - but certainly not all. I hear of something like this story - and I just end out going through the motions. I will get up, go to my banquet shift, list things online, keep on keeping on with my day, but my heart's not in it, I'm just going through the motions. Quite likely as long as I stay in the US, this will be how it is for me, to some degree. Just wanted to pass along the long term effects and scarring of this kind of judgemental behavior - I am 46 now, it will never go away completely me thinks. My hope here is that just one person thinks before judging, then I will at least have done some good. Rob PS I figured since I have revealed some of my life history, I might as well attach a face to it - so this is me at the airport about to catch a flight to Austin.
Hear, hear.
gimmethesimplelife
12-5-12, 3:39pm
Hear, hear.Thank you. It indeed does give me some hope to know that I am not alone in thinking along these lines. Rob
I At the end of the day, it's false to compare a dust-bowl drive (which my great grandmother made with her small children) to a modern family in a world where we have lots of different options.
Well my point wasn't so much that the drive west in their vehicles was the problem, it was the way they were loaded up "Beverly Hillbillies" style with everything they owned piled top of their cars and the kids (and Granny) piled on top of that or hanging willy-nilly off of everything. Basicly riding unsecured in cold or wet, hot or dusty conditions for a thousand miles of bumpy unpaved roads out in the open. So having seat belts or air bags or a new modern vehicle wouldn't have made a difference. The parents had a choice - leave everything they owned so that there is room for the kids to ride inside, or pile them all on top. They choose to pile them all on top because, in most ways, they didn't really have much of a choice due to their new impoverished state. Was that choice bad parenting or just a reflection of the desperation of those times? I think it's the later and MAY have been the same for the family in the van. Yes there are other choices, but maybe they were not in a position to make them. And their actions on a two day, 2000 mile drive to get yourself in (hopefully) better circumstances, may not be indicitive of their parenting skills they have in general.
awakenedsoul
12-5-12, 11:05pm
Rob,
When you were writing about the election, you kept saying that you were going to leave this country if he wasn't reelected, because you wouldn't have Obamacare. He won. I thought you would be happy. Your problem was solved. Then you received an inheritance. You could pay off your debt and have some savings. You got a job. Things were going your way. How exciting! What an opportunity! I was thrilled for you.
Now I'm hearing the same refrain about America. Why don't you try living in some other countries? I think your unhappiness may be inside of you. I've lived all over Europe and worked in Japan and throughout the USA. I feel VERY lucky to be here. As a woman, I would not want to live and work anywhere else. It's ironic that your grandmother left Austria to come here. Why do you think she left? Why do so many foreigners want to come here? There's a reason.
I appreciate the structure and order that the law provides. I like to know that I have rights and responsibilities. I am very grateful that I don't live somewhere like Israel or the Middle East. That kind of chaos and violence would terrify me.
This family's situation is tragic, and I have a feeling there is addiction involved. I know a 6 year old girl who was adopted through foster care. I sit with her every Sunday at my knitting group. She is black, and her adopted mom is white. They have an amazing bond. She is happy as a clam. Sometimes things do work out for the best. She's a funny, bubbly child.
I don't see the point in speculating about this family. I'd rather do my best to help where and when I can. And also to set goals and keep my light shining. It's a waste of energy to fantasize about why this happened. It doesn't do anyone any good.
As Abraham Lincoln said, "You are as happy as you make up your mind to be." My father always says, "Misery loves company."
Of course. Because we have no people who are that poor in this country any more. And they have plenty of choices.
It's all relative.
This remark stuns me beyond belief. Wow. That's not relative, that's (no offense intended) ignorant.
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 12:20am
Rob,
When you were writing about the election, you kept saying that you were going to leave this country if he wasn't reelected, because you wouldn't have Obamacare. He won. I thought you would be happy. Your problem was solved. Then you received an inheritance. You could pay off your debt and have some savings. You got a job. Things were going your way. How exciting! What an opportunity! I was thrilled for you.
Now I'm hearing the same refrain about America. Why don't you try living in some other countries? I think your unhappiness may be inside of you. I've lived all over Europe and worked in Japan and throughout the USA. I feel VERY lucky to be here. As a woman, I would not want to live and work anywhere else. It's ironic that your grandmother left Austria to come here. Why do you think she left? Why do so many foreigners want to come here? There's a reason.
I appreciate the structure and order that the law provides. I like to know that I have rights and responsibilities. I am very grateful that I don't live somewhere like Israel or the Middle East. That kind of chaos and violence would terrify me.
This family's situation is tragic, and I have a feeling there is addiction involved. I know a 6 year old girl who was adopted through foster care. I sit with her every Sunday at my knitting group. She is black, and her adopted mom is white. They have an amazing bond. She is happy as a clam. Sometimes things do work out for the best. She's a funny, bubbly child.
I don't see the point in speculating about this family. I'd rather do my best to help where and when I can. And also to set goals and keep my light shining. It's a waste of energy to fantasize about why this happened. It doesn't do anyone any good.
As Abraham Lincoln said, "You are as happy as you make up your mind to be." My father always says, "Misery loves company."Hi Awakened Soul,
You are right. Some good things have happened to me lately. Obama is in office so it looks like we are getting ObamaCare after all the hurdles. And unfortunatley our family friend did pass on - I did not know I was going to be getting money out of this - I mean, maybe a small amount from the family for readying his properties for sale and such but not enough to pay off debts. And it sure is nice to have Bank of America and Compass Bank and my credit union paid off! And it is nice to be working again even if only doing banquets for a temp service - at least I am working and not on unemployment, plus I have other income coming in from secret shops and selling things online. So you are right, things are not all bad at all.
What bothers me here is that I see my past in this family and in some of the responses here I see what I was up against on my way out of my situation. I know I can't change the world or society, and it's quite possible addiction was involved in this situation -we don't know that, but I would agree it's a possibility. But at least I can speak my truth as someone who has been there. If I don't do that much, am I not as guilty as those who judge without knowing? It really is a nightmare to dig yourself out of such a situation and the attitudes and prejudice you encounter along the way sure don't help any. What makes it worse is I do believe that those who judged in their posts here - I do believe they were well meaning and well intentioned, which somehow makes it even worse.
But I think there is something to what you have said about keeping your light shining. Something positive I could be doing about this is finding some kind of volunteer advocacy work dealing with folks in such situations - better than just posting on this board. If you have read YMOYL, in there it mentions that to find meaning in your life beyond just working and consuming it's a good idea to work with something you already know something about that moves you. This sure moves me.
About my mother - she immigrated from Austria in 1965 when she was young and the US and Australia were the places to be. Since the mid-80's, when Austria started rising and lower wage workers like herself were already starting to lose ground, she has been kicking herself for leaving. You could say just go back then but unfortunately Austria takes away it's citizenship if you accept other citizenship. About living outside the US - I have spent three months in Austria once - very luckily the airfare was paid for by my mom's family - gotta say being there in a much more socialistic country really opened my eyes. OTOH, there you are less socially free than you are here, and on the other hand, there are so many less what ifs there than here. I also spent two months in Mexico once back in 1996 - I had some money saved and had lost a job and just needed a cheap place to chill for awhile. Not Austria by any means but I did appreciate how much less people needed there to be happy - and how much more accepting of life's terms people seemed there - there's one I wish I could learn myself.
But I digress. I do see what you are getting at though. I just feel if I had kept silent, having had the experiences I have had, I would be guilty in a way too. And I don't want to live with that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 12:29am
This remark stuns me beyond belief. Wow. That's not relative, that's (no offense intended) ignorant.Sometimes it's hard online to gauge meaning from just words as there are no clues from tone of voice or facial expressions.....but I'm guessing (?) this comment from Storyteller was tounge-in-cheek. I say this based on prior posts by Storyteller mentioning seeing this as a class thing - I think Storyteller was being flippant. Rob
Sometimes it's hard online to gauge meaning from just words as there are no clues from tone of voice or facial expressions.....but I'm guessing (?) this comment from Storyteller was tounge-in-cheek. I say this based on prior posts by Storyteller mentioning seeing this as a class thing - I think Storyteller was being flippant. Rob
I'd feel much better if that is the case!
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 12:38am
Awakened Soul - I just thought of something. You mentioned in your post appreciating the structure and order the law provides here. I won't completely disagree with that - compare almost anywhere in the US with Ciuadad Juarez, for example, and your point is crystal clear. That having been said, is structure and order served by charging these parents with felonies (thereby making them unemployable at a later date) and by splitting up the family? I do get your point about structure and order - though I also believe both are in decline - but I also see that not all laws end out serving all people for the benefit of structure and order. This would be one such case for me. Rob
iris lily
12-6-12, 12:53am
...That having been said, is structure and order served by charging these parent with felonies (thereby making them unemployable at a later date) and by splitting up the family? ... Rob
While it's impossible for us to know which is better, I'd say that the children in this family are likely screwed in either scenario. Whether they end up with dear old dad or in the State system, neither is optimal, at least, I wouldn't want my kids there.
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 1:08am
While it's impossible for us to know which is better, I'd say that the children in this family are likely screwed in either scenario. Whether they end up with dear old dad or in the State system, neither is optimal, at least, I wouldn't want my kids there.LOL We agree on something! I agree with you that neither choice is optimal for the children, yes. Rob
Wildflower
12-6-12, 1:14am
Sometimes it's hard online to gauge meaning from just words as there are no clues from tone of voice or facial expressions.....but I'm guessing (?) this comment from Storyteller was tounge-in-cheek. I say this based on prior posts by Storyteller mentioning seeing this as a class thing - I think Storyteller was being flippant. Rob
I agree - I'm sure he was being flippant. That is how I read it too.
Rob, I like your pic. Always nice to put a face with a name I've come to know for quite awhile now. :)
While it's impossible for us to know which is better, I'd say that the children in this family are likely screwed in either scenario. Whether they end up with dear old dad or in the State system, neither is optimal, at least, I wouldn't want my kids there.
So out of the frying pan and into the fire. No improvements made.
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 1:24am
I agree - I'm sure he was being flippant. That is how I read it too.
Rob, I like your pic. Always nice to put a face with a name I've come to know for quite awhile now. :)Thanks Wildflower! Just thought it was time to put a face to my words. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 1:28am
So out of the frying pan and into the fire. No improvements made.And I agree with you too 100%. Instinctively I would be for keeping the family intact if at all possible when we know more and can ascertain if such is wise. At the moment though, it sure seems like no improvements have been made period, at least to me. Rob
Yes there are other choices, but maybe they were not in a position to make them. And their actions on a two day, 2000 mile drive to get yourself in (hopefully) better circumstances, may not be indicitive of their parenting skills they have in general.
I agree. This was one terrible and foolish decision made in desperation, so I don't think that they are inherently bad parents. That's what I said initially, too. :)
I also think that the culture of cars was different in the dust-bowl era, which is part of my point. It wasn't far off from earlier days when people rode in open carts across long distances (which were more common than the 'covered wagon' process). Cars were still relatively new, and treated like horseless carts, as opposed to the sorts of vehicles they are now -- which is why there was no concern for the pile-up.
Whereas today, we have a very sophisticated car culture, we understand safety in a completely different way in relation to them, and as such, the decision making process was not the same -- because the thinking of how a car functions and/or should be used is not the same. And I tried to point that out in my own example (though, hey, it wasn't smooth!).
Thus, I think that these people had a better understanding of the dangers of their choices, whereas a dust-bowl family would not because of the cultural hegemony around cars being more like carts.
That doesn't mean that they are horrible parents all around though. They just made this particularly foolish decision.
And their family -- who refused to provide help to them in other ways (although, maybe they tried?) -- called in the government rather than finding a community-based method of problem solving. So, they are part of this tragedy, too, IMO.
I agree. This was one terrible and foolish decision made in desperation, so I don't think that they are inherently bad parents.
Selling your kids into prostitution is a terrible decision made in desperation. This appears to be a case of people with very limited resources solving a problem in a creative way to produce a desired result. The end justifies the means. We all make similar decisions every day. The only difference is that most of us have a wider range of better, safer, more socially acceptable options.
gimmethesimplelife
12-6-12, 4:51pm
Selling your kids into prostitution is a terrible decision made in desperation. This appears to be a case of people with very limited resources solving a problem in a creative way to produce a desired result. The end justifies the means. We all make similar decisions every day. The only difference is that most of us have a wider range of better, safer, more socially acceptable options.I agree completely Gregg, big +1. Rob
I should be clear that I meant the end justifies the means for them in their decision making process. YMMV.
The Storyteller
12-6-12, 9:46pm
This remark stuns me beyond belief. Wow. That's not relative, that's (no offense intended) ignorant.
No, that's sarcasm.
Selling your kids into prostitution is a terrible decision made in desperation. This appears to be a case of people with very limited resources solving a problem in a creative way to produce a desired result. The end justifies the means. We all make similar decisions every day. The only difference is that most of us have a wider range of better, safer, more socially acceptable options.
I wouldn't say that the ends justifies the means, but I do understand the nature of what creates this sort of situation.
I also would say that this decision doesn't really compare to the decision in the OP, as far as I can tell. Isn't there a vast difference in degree and kind between selling a person into slavery for the immediate income that won't last very long and deciding to rent a u-haul rather than a van to get across the country?
I wouldn't say that the ends justifies the means, but I do understand the nature of what creates this sort of situation.
Which is why I added this...
I should be clear that I meant the end justifies the means for them in their decision making process. YMMV.
Their decisions don't impact any of us here. We can sit in judgment of them, but when you boil it down their choices impacted their family, not society. For me the only societal aspect of this story is the shame I feel regarding how harshly these people have been judged for actions that, given their circumstances, were logical. I won't be as nice as Rob has been (shock and awe). Forget society, I'm surprised how harshly these people have been judged in this thread. Far be it from me to cast the first stone, but there seem to be a lot of us here that could benefit from a long walk in poorer shoes.
I also would say that this decision doesn't really compare to the decision in the OP, as far as I can tell. Isn't there a vast difference in degree and kind between selling a person into slavery for the immediate income that won't last very long and deciding to rent a u-haul rather than a van to get across the country?
Exactly Zoebird. I'm not trying to pick on you, but to call these folks decision a "terrible and foolish decision made in desperation" blows what they did so far out of proportion I'm not even sure how to respond. Perhaps a better move would be to ask everyone what they would do if they were in this family's shoes. You have to get nine people and all your belongings all the way across the country on very limited funds. You can not afford to rent two vehicles and if you sell all your stuff on one end you will just have to re-buy it on the other so it makes a lot more sense to take what you have with you.
If I'm honest I would probably come to the same conclusion they did. I would likely travel with 16 or 17 less cats. I would certainly not keep a full can of gas in back with the kids, but I have the benefit of education that teaches me about things like fumes that can be given off. Other than that I very well might set up the living room at the front of the truck bed, get out every sleeping bag, pillow and blanket we own. Dress the kids in their warmest clothes and coats. Give them a big ice chest full of water and drinks and a big box of snacks along with several flashlights and a cell phone and head down the road. Sometimes you may not like the choice, but have to do the best you can with what you have. Anyone who doesn't know what that feels like has lead a privileged life indeed.
Miss Cellane
12-7-12, 9:24am
Which is why I added this...
Perhaps a better move would be to ask everyone what they would do if they were in this family's shoes. You have to get nine people and all your belongings all the way across the country on very limited funds. You can not afford to rent two vehicles and if you sell all your stuff on one end you will just have to re-buy it on the other so it makes a lot more sense to take what you have with you.
If I'm honest I would probably come to the same conclusion they did. I would likely travel with 16 or 17 less cats. I would certainly not keep a full can of gas in back with the kids, but I have the benefit of education that teaches me about things like fumes that can be given off. Other than that I very well might set up the living room at the front of the truck bed, get out every sleeping bag, pillow and blanket we own. Dress the kids in their warmest clothes and coats. Give them a big ice chest full of water and drinks and a big box of snacks along with several flashlights and a cell phone and head down the road. Sometimes you may not like the choice, but have to do the best you can with what you have. Anyone who doesn't know what that feels like has lead a privileged life indeed.
Let's just look at the money part of this trip.
If you sell everything you own to make the trip cross-country, what's going to happen?
You have to sell quickly, so you take whatever people offer you, which isn't going to be much. Craigslist and Freecycle and Ebay have accustomed people to spending next to nothing on used household furniture and other items.
You then spend that money getting cross-country to where, hopefully, that new job awaits. Let's say, for argument's sake, that the dad gets the job.
Now you have no money or very little money. That first paycheck won't be in your hands for two to three weeks. And you need to feed those kids, and find a place to rent and get some furniture in there. You sold all your furniture, much of it at a loss, and the money's been spent. To replace it, you can shop Goodwill and the Salvation Army, but it's going to take a while to find 8 beds and enough chairs for the kitchen table and so forth. So you might end up having to buy some new mattresses, at the very least. And you won't have the money to do that for a couple of months, even if you can stay with family for a month or two. Granted, the kids can sleep in their sleeping bags, if they didn't sell those. But maybe they did.
There's first and last months rent, plus security deposit that needs to be saved up. There's food to be bought. Gas has to be bought to get to work.
Of course, they might luck out and find a charity that will give them free furniture.
Selling on one end and buying again on the other works if you can keep the money. And in my experience, buying replacement items always costs more than what you made selling your old stuff, even if you are buying used.
iris lily
12-7-12, 12:19pm
... And in my experience, buying replacement items always costs more than what you made selling your old stuff, even if you are buying used.
But replacement catts are free.
JustHangingOut
12-7-12, 6:47pm
I have been friends with the mother for about 35 years. Yes, it was a bad decision, no drugs/alcohol/substances were not involved. Yes, the father had/has job prospects in California and had been in California without his family since August. He went back to Pennsylvania to help pack up and move the family to Cali. They do have a place to stay in Cali (with friends/family) until he made enough to get a place of their own. He was laid off about 2 years ago and could not find work in Pennsylvania after trying since he was laid off. The money they were using to come to Cali was the final unemployment check he would receive, they will now have no funds. Had they been able to afford renting a second vehicle they would have. Their family was not helpful and was trying to get them to not move. They do have a "house" in Pennsylvania, but the foundation is slipping and it is falling apart.... they have been in that house (over 100 years old) for about 20 years and they need a larger house regardless as the kids are getting bigger and need their own rooms. Yes, when they had the kids they could afford to have the kids. She is a stay at home mom, who was home-schooling the kids after the kids were picked on because their clothes are made by her and they don't have a lot. They did throw away/sell/give away a lot of their belongings and were only bringing the bare minimum to California. As for the cats.... they attempted to give the cats away and the people wanted them to pay for fixing the cats and the shots. They went to shelters and they were told that the shelters were unable to take the cats. In Cali there is a no-kill shelter that would take them so that's what they were going to do instead of leaving them there to fend for themselves.
As for furniture.... I have a set of bunk beds, a queen size, a trundle, and a Full size they were going to use ... as well as a couch, table, dressers, coffee table.... and a few other pieces that I have talked with them about using for as long as needed. Their church (they are very religious people) has a place for them to stay and one of the job prospects is through a business that one of the people from the church owns.
If it had been me, I would have rented a van that would safely taken then human beings across the country.
I would have only taken as much stuff as would fit in the van -- which likely would not have been very much -- perhaps a suitcase per person for clothing and personal belongings, but probably half-that.
I would have surrendered the animals (sad as it would have been) to animal control -- they have to take them (honestly, it's what they do). Yes, there was more of a chance that the animals would have been euthanized.
I would have sold all the remaining belongings, and gotten them upon arrival from organizations like the salvation army. Since there was a -- presumedly furnished -- place in california for them (as per just hanging out's assertion), there would have been no immediate need to cart those things across country. Once they were set up and would be able to get their own place, they could have gone to charitable organizations, garage and estate sales, and picked up what they needed.
While I was never in this desperate of a situation, my husband and I did sell everything in PA except for several boxes (still stored there by my family), and brought 8 bags with us to NZ. Most of our furnishings cost us a total of $300 but our bed was very expensive which I'd personally saved up for over the course of 3 years (before arriving).
For me, the first concern would have been the children -- getting them safely across the country -- not the stuff. Stuff can be replaced.
Now, this family -- they may never be together again. And that's just damn tragic if you ask me.
And, JHO, if you have a chance to update us on how things are going (and, i certainly hope) that they get their kids back, I would very much appreciate any such updates. My heart really goes out to them.
JustHangingOut, thanks for providing a little background on this issue. It is much appreciated.
JustHangingOut, thanks for providing a little background on this issue. It is much appreciated.
+1
The comment that the family didn't want them to leave PA is particularly enlightening.
I find it sad that the growing tendency in the US is to assume the worst and leap to punish people who are perceived as having made poor choices. I spent a good part of my childhood riding around in the pillow-stuffed hatchback area of our family's VW rabbit -- it was the only way we could fit 6 people in the car to get to church on Sunday. My very middle-class, very well-educated parents made that choice rather than going into debt to buy a bigger car. Was it risky? Sure. Would they do the same thing now, since safety standards are so much tighter and there is better awareness? Probably not. But anybody who looks at what they did in that one situation and says they were somehow neglectful parents would be missing a lot.
I think all of this has to do with the way the media hypes up such stories (and the even worse ones) and makes everybody ultra sensitive to the risks of NOT jumping in to rush to judgement/action. People can lose their jobs and basically their whole lives if they are found not to have stepped in where something turns out badly. Imagine what would have happened if the police officer who stopped them was sympathetic and let them go on their merry way -- especially if there HAD been some accident down the road. And all of this combines to make us an increasingly frightened and judgemental society. Add to that the shredding of the social safety net and it is very risky/scary to be a low income parent these days.
lhamo
JustHangingOut, thanks for providing a little background on this issue. It is much appreciated.
+1
The comment that the family didn't want them to leave PA is particularly enlightening.
I find it sad that the growing tendency in the US is to assume the worst and leap to punish people who are perceived as having made poor choices. I spent a good part of my childhood riding around in the pillow-stuffed hatchback area of our family's VW rabbit -- it was the only way we could fit 6 people in the car to get to church on Sunday. My very middle-class, very well-educated parents made that choice rather than going into debt to buy a bigger car. Was it risky? Sure. Would they do the same thing now, since safety standards are so much tighter and there is better awareness? Probably not. But anybody who looks at what they did in that one situation and says they were somehow neglectful parents would be missing a lot.
I think all of this has to do with the way the media hypes up such stories (and the even worse ones) and makes everybody ultra sensitive to the risks of NOT jumping in to rush to judgement/action. People can lose their jobs and basically their whole lives if they are found not to have stepped in where something turns out badly. Imagine what would have happened if the police officer who stopped them was sympathetic and let them go on their merry way -- especially if there HAD been some accident down the road. And all of this combines to make us an increasingly frightened and judgemental society. Add to that the shredding of the social safety net and it is very risky/scary to be a low income parent these days.
lhamo
Sounds like The Grapes of Wrath.
Aside from the gasoline fumes filling the back of the truck, this really isn't any more dangerous than having your kids ride in the back of a pick up truck which was standard operating procedure for many people in this country up to twenty years ago.
And as for the cats, I don't see anything wrong with taking them to CA to be surrendered to a no-kill shelter rather than leaving them behind in PA. After all, these animals were probably seen as members of the family (a very reasonable and typical and commendable attitude to have toward companion animals.) The problem with the cats was they obviously weren't capable of judging that 18 of them was at least 12 too many to begin with.
I don't see this situation as one that really warrants all this finger pointing and finger wagging. They were a desperate family trying to keep their family together and keep food on the table. They could have dealt with this situation in a much worse way.
iris lily
12-7-12, 10:43pm
It had to be a slow news day for this story to be hyped.
A few years ago I went out on calls with my sister in law who is a county medical examiner's assistant. One of those cases was a tragic accident where two young boys were brain dead after riding in the back of their uncle's truck. Uncle had piled the boys on top of a load of plant debris and brush--their job was to keep the brush in the bed. Uncle hit a bump and the boys bounced out of the truck landing on their heads. Both of them deader than a doornail. And that story didn't make news all over.
I think it is the 18 catts, that grabs people's attention.
That this is a felony charge for the dad seems pretty extreme, but if that's the crime level for putting lives in danger, I guess I won't argue with it. But it seems extreme.
iris lily
12-7-12, 10:48pm
+1
I find it sad that the growing tendency in the US is to assume the worst and leap to punish people who are perceived as having made poor choices. ...
lhamo
I won't say this is true or not. But this brings to my mind all of the mandatory reporting for things like suspected child abuse and neglect, which I view as an attempt to legally codify "caring." So we get what we get when we enact laws like that. You can't have it both ways.
I also wonder about the fuss about the container of gasoline.
I mean, I transport my gasoline in a DOT-approved (required by law) metal jerry-can which is crash proof and doesn't vent fumes. Was this family carrying the gallon of gasoline in an open bucket?
Any of you have a gallon of gasoline in your garage for your lawnmower...?
gimmethesimplelife
12-7-12, 11:16pm
Just Hanging Out, thank you for jumping in and shedding some light on this situation. Here at last we have some details.....and I couldn't agree more with what lhmao stated - a growing tendency in the US to leap to punish people perceived to have made bad choices.....Very scary stuff. I can remember a time when society was much more about second chances - that sure seems to be Gone With The Wind here. The felony charges for the parents and the wrecked lives they are likely to have upon emerging from the criminal justice system - is this the America we want to have? And how did we get to this point? This thread has however given me some hope - on the one hand, there were some pretty harsh judgements here earlier, and on the other, there have been those too who are more understanding and can think beyond the quick judgement. For those who can/did, thank you, it personally means a lot to me even though I don't know the folks involved here. I am familiar with the basic motivation(s) however. There is not much I can do about US society and these kinds of judgements other than to speak my truth - and I am thankful that you all here let me do this. Rob
JustHangingOut
12-8-12, 12:01am
You're welcome, just glad that I was able to help put any speculations to rest. And now for some good news!!!
Yeah!!! The judge gave their kids back to them!!!! But they have to stay with her parents in Pennsylvania for a time. But at least they got the kids back :D
As for the gas, there was just enough in the can to hear liquid when it was shaken, the can was just in case they had to walk to get fuel....
gimmethesimplelife
12-8-12, 12:23am
You're welcome, just glad that I was able to help put any speculations to rest. And now for some good news!!!
Yeah!!! The judge gave their kids back to them!!!! But they have to stay with her parents in Pennsylvania for a time. But at least they got the kids back :D
As for the gas, there was just enough in the can to hear liquid when it was shaken, the can was just in case they had to walk to get fuel....Just want to say I am really glad hear this.....As someone who has lived with the wolf at the door before - I'm really glad to hear this. Did the judge allow the felony charges to stand, or does that get determined at a later date? Though I have never met these people, I find myself very much wishing for all involved to get to a much more stable place - a place that would prevent such situations from taking place. Bravo that the family is not getting broken up! Rob
I also wonder about the fuss about the container of gasoline.
I mean, I transport my gasoline in a DOT-approved (required by law) metal jerry-can which is crash proof and doesn't vent fumes. Was this family carrying the gallon of gasoline in an open bucket?
Any of you have a gallon of gasoline in your garage for your lawnmower...?
Thank you for saying that! I wanted to, but feared such harsh back lash I bit my tongue.
JustHangingOut
12-8-12, 3:07am
Rob, Becky said that there are a few stipulations but will tell me more about it when they get settled back in Pennsylvania. But the main one is that they have to stay with her parents for the time being. I am hoping that it is just probationary and when they can they will be able to move out here and be able to begin getting their lives in order again soon.
Bae.....come on..........having a container of gasoline in your garage is quite different from having one in a moving vehicle right next to your children.
At least we've learned that it was almost empty, and for use in case of needing to get some.
Bae.....come on..........having a container of gasoline in your garage is quite different from having one in a moving vehicle right next to your children.
At least we've learned that it was almost empty, and for use in case of needing to get some.
If your concern is fumes then no, there isn't any difference.
I keep two gas cans in my garage, one for the lawn mower and one for the two stroke engines. In my motorhome, I have smaller containers of charcoal lighter which goes everywhere with us. I also have a propane tank under my shower and a 55 gallon gas tank under my bed. On my motorcycle I run around with a 6 gallon gas container between my knees.
My concern was mostly in a crash and the flammability of it....which is less of a concern, since it was supposedly close to empty......although still a bit disconcerting.
My concern was mostly in a crash and the flammability of it....which is less of a concern, since it was supposedly close to empty......although still a bit disconcerting.
Use a D.O.T. approved can, as is required...
gimmethesimplelife
12-8-12, 4:30pm
Rob, Becky said that there are a few stipulations but will tell me more about it when they get settled back in Pennsylvania. But the main one is that they have to stay with her parents for the time being. I am hoping that it is just probationary and when they can they will be able to move out here and be able to begin getting their lives in order again soon.Whatever the stipulations are, I am sure they beat sitting in a jail cell, and from what you are saying I am gathering they will either be released or have been? Awful about the cats.....I'm guessing they will probably not get them back? At least they are getting a second chance, which is all I would ever ask in such a situation. Not everyone gets that, and I am so glad these folks are getting that opportunity. And thanks again for dropping in here Just Hanging Out. Rob
JustHangingOut
12-8-12, 5:27pm
They picked up the cats that they were planning on keeping (three) and the others stayed at the shelter. They have to prove that they can care for the kids (as in get a job) before they can move out of the parents place and wherever they wish to move to has to be approved to make sure the house is stable (the house in Cali would pass inspection but not sure about the house in Penn.) enough for people to be living in it. Aside from that I haven't heard of any further action being taken by the courts. Just really glad that they are together again.....
You're welcome, just glad that I was able to help put any speculations to rest. And now for some good news!!!
Yeah!!! The judge gave their kids back to them!!!! But they have to stay with her parents in Pennsylvania for a time. But at least they got the kids back :D
I am so thankful for this!
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