View Full Version : What is more beneficial for the environment?
Tussiemussies
11-30-12, 6:23pm
We have used fake Christmas trees over the years, thinking it was better for the environment and also didn't but into a throw away mentality. Now I am wondering if this a good decision since trees decompose fairly quickly and when it it is time to get a new fake tree the old one will take forever to break down in a landfill.
What is your opinion on this? Thanks...
I think with the new artificial trees, they are so much better (quality wise) than the old, so last much longer. I'm going with artificial.
Have always loved the idea behind preservation.
Laser_Cat
11-30-12, 6:32pm
That's a good question, I used to be really anti "real" christmas tree but then a friend pointed out that they are grown as a crop like anything else. What's worse the energy and plastics used to create a fake tree or the land use used while growing real ones? Yet they sequester carbon while growing.... It's a tough question! If I ever had my own place I think I would grow an evergreen in my front yard and decorate it outside every year =) (with strung popcorn and nuts for the birds and squirrels of course!)
I cut down a Christmas tree from my yard each year we have one, when we're done with it, it becomes firewood or building materials. And in a few years another one has grown back.
I can't imagine a manufactured product being "better" environmentally.
The plastic one will never break down in the landfill.
The real one is carbon neutral and not deforesting. Fake Christmas trees are not carbon neutral. Christmas trees are farmed.
And real is much nicer.
treehugger
11-30-12, 7:01pm
Not voting for one side or the other, but don't forget that real trees are shipped long distances each year (in refrigerated rail cars and/or trucks, or with lots of ice), so that adds to their environmental impact. If everyone could get a local tree, like bae's example, then the choice is clearer. But, instead it's not black and white (like most modern decisions).
I am curious, but admit I don't know is anything about amounts of water and pesticide use at tree farms. That would also have to be factored in to get the real environmental impact.
I don't put up a tree, real or fake, so this is all a moot point for me personally. But, I am a treehugger (:)) so it's interesting.
Kara
SteveinMN
11-30-12, 7:04pm
When one looks 'cradle-to-grave' however, the picture is not quite so clear. Most people do not have a tree on their property that they can cut down and decorate; nor do they have the room to let it return to the earth. While some people can burn the "used" tree in a fireplace, I was under the impression that one was not supposed to burn pine because of the resins. So the tree must be logged and imported from wherever they grow (primarily northern climes) and hauled away after the holiday. All of which takes fuel and all of which is duplicated every year you buy a real tree. We're not talking tons of fuel or many thousands of miles for most people, but it is a consideration in a total lifecycle.
Our artificial tree actually is my parents' from about 35 years ago. For that matter, so are the lights (mini-bulbs). At this point, it sheds branchlets just like a real tree. :laff:And once the ornaments are on it, it's hard to tell it's a fake. I know that is unusual for a fake tree. But it's worked for us. Just pointing out an aspect of the discussion that hasn't yet been covered.
[EDIT: I see Kara already covered some of these points while I was writing...]
While some people can burn the "used" tree in a fireplace, I was under the impression that one was not supposed to burn pine because of the resins...
You can burn pine and fir just fine. You just need to properly season it, burn it at the correct temperature, and keep your chimney cleaned and in good repair. I burn almost entirely such woods, and have had no problems.
treehugger
11-30-12, 7:11pm
[EDIT: I see Kara already covered some of these points while I was writing...]
Whew! I'm not invisible after all! ;)
iris lily
11-30-12, 7:43pm
Oh that Billy Barebutt were still here. He would say as the owner of a tree farm: buy the real tree. It employs local people among other advantages. That is--try to buy one from the local guys who grow them. If you go to a tree farm to cut your own, you know where it came from.
Other than cutting one locally, I wouldn't side one way or the other. I have a couple o fake trees but seldom put one up. Since the fashion changes on these, I'd not want one to last for 40 years.
The real ones are much more expensive in the long run. That is not a bad thing, I'm just sayin'.
The best option for us would be to go up and cut our own tree locally, from forests that need to be thinned. This would be an excellent way to thin forests, since the size of trees people want in their homes are probably close to the size of trees that need to be thinned (ie <8ft tall). Unfortunately, the trees that would be ideal to cut for forest health are most likely lopsided or the branching is sparse, which people *don't* want. If only there would be a good way to add more branches or something then it would be a win-win. It could even employ folks because probably they could have chain-saw rentals or something.
In any case, I dislike decorating and we don't have kids so just got a cheap fake one to have something, since it looks like we'll have some family members to our house. I would have been fine with no decorations at all but felt some would not think it was "christmasy" enough.
I read an article that said you would have to use a fake tree for 20 years for it to be equivalent to using a real (cut as opposed to ready-to-plant) tree every year, environmentally.
It didn't break things down by, for instance, size of tree, though. We use a small artificial tree and are on year 9, so I'm guessing we're getting close to the break-even point, and have no plans to discontinue this tree.
IshbelRobertson
12-1-12, 8:29am
We have always had real trees. Well, apart from the year my husband was seduced by a huge, almost 'real' looking tree being sold by a really posh department store, he bought one, at vast expense, and then spent the entire time whingeing and moaning about how artificial it looked and how it had no smell.
We donated it to a local charity on Twelfth Night and went back to 'real'!
If it wasn't for the insistence of some family members, I'd dump the tree in a heartbeat. I really don't need it.
But I would think unless you use the same artificial tree for years and years, it's probably more environmentally sound getting a real one. And of course for either choice, smaller is probably better.
SteveinMN
12-1-12, 10:44am
I read an article that said you would have to use a fake tree for 20 years for it to be equivalent to using a real (cut as opposed to ready-to-plant) tree every year, environmentally.
I guess we're good then ... :) I wouldn't mind moving to LED lights, but I will not get rid of these as long as they work. For as long as they light up in a year, I'm sure we're ahead not buying new lights to replace working lights.
I agree. I like using things up before replacing them.
ApatheticNoMore
12-1-12, 1:55pm
Still the whole thing is wasteful :~) Deliberately farming things not for food but just for decoration (I feel the same way about decorative halloween pumpkins, but then it's not like I've never had foot rot in my fridge rather than on my porch), using lights and electricity not for lighting but purely for decoration. Oh I'm fun, aren't I? But really the rituals at this time of year often seem like the massive flaunting of waste. What's better environmentally? I'd think an artificial tree bought used maybe.
We decorate our ficus. It's very pretty! And we set up a Pagan Winter Solstice altar. This year, I draped it with a ruby red silk sari with hand couching in silver thread, that I found for $5. It has some holes, but it is a gorgeous piece. There will be a light source on it, and the few gifts we are giving our young adult kids will be nestled there as well.
My big splurge is a $10 white christmas cactus for my DH, as he told me his grandmother used to get him one every year, and he loves them. After 16 years, I am still learning about him! So I brought him one last night, and he loves it.
I love doing fun things over the winter holidays, rather than buying things.
fidgiegirl
12-1-12, 2:34pm
We might be persuaded to have a real tree at some point, but since the artificial one has already been bought, well, we're going to use it. If we needed to start again, like my sister whose artificial tree was wrecked in a basement sewage backup, we'd maybe not get another fake one.
fidgiegirl
12-1-12, 2:36pm
Oh yeah, and to the point of the pesticides, etc., we had a lot of tree farms in the county where I grew up. The neighbor worked for one at about 14/15 yo - one of his tasks was to paint them.
Square Peg
12-1-12, 2:52pm
I think it depends on where you live too. Transporting live trees to Florida is probably pretty wasteful. We live in the state of Washington, so our trees have always been grown locally. In the past few years we have gone to a tree farm, but this year we are going to cut one down in the National Forest. That will be a nice family day trip (drive of about an hour or so), $5 for the permit, and the trees need thinning. Our town collects the trees after and turn them into mulch for use in parks.
Deliberately farming things not for food but just for decoration...
In my case I view it as weeding :-)
The trees here are constantly trying to sneak up on the house under cover of fog:
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-t2CoTCIPobw/TJUQqFe-RrI/AAAAAAAABTs/3hhLfYeRqtI/s640/%255BUNSET%255D.jpg
But I stand ready:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AwwtwAvPkOc/S_rpEhfFtiI/AAAAAAAAD8U/juDHeU5Fb8g/s640/gse_multipart6793438116023170181.tmp.jpg
Square Peg
12-1-12, 3:48pm
They're about to attack the doggie!
Miss Cellane
12-1-12, 4:15pm
There are some slightly more environmentally friendly fake trees here: http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/modern-alternative-christmas-trees-180765 They don't look much like real trees, but most of them look like something you could DIY if you had some woodworking skills.
I've bought a "balled" live tree and planted it in the past. Not cheap, but easiest on the conscience, although it's really just relocating a tree that was perfectly happy somewhere else, and which is now subjected to some degree of trauma.
I vote for the real ones. I live near a "cut your own" place and they do grow them like any other crop. However, I always have separation anxiety when it's time to get rid of them: http://silententry.wordpress.com/?s=christmas+tree
...My big splurge is a $10 white christmas cactus for my DH, as he told me his grandmother used to get him one every year, and he loves them. After 16 years, I am still learning about him! So I brought him one last night, and he loves it.
....
DH has a pink Christmas cactus that he had before he met me. Then he's got a collection of regular cacti--all older than our relationship, and I've been around 25 years. I am not kidding when I say that DH and the cacti will be together after I am long gone...
Still the whole thing is wasteful :~) Deliberately farming things not for food but just for decoration (I feel the same way about decorative halloween pumpkins, but then it's not like I've never had foot rot in my fridge rather than on my porch), using lights and electricity not for lighting but purely for decoration. Oh I'm fun, aren't I? But really the rituals at this time of year often seem like the massive flaunting of waste. What's better environmentally? I'd think an artificial tree bought used maybe.
It's not just holiday rituals, by your definition all growers of ornamental plants are wasteful. Really you can extend that definition to 90% of what most of us have or so in life.
But I will say that one year, after growing castor beans plants for the fun of it, I felt a little guilty about how much "waste " there was. I mean, these things get to be huge, and while they are fun, I end up with so much plant material in the compost dumpster, seems like a waste. My other ornamental are smaller and more purposeful, and even then, I've felt really bad to throw wheelbarrows full or iris into the compost bin but at some point I've given away as much as I can. A side note: This week some of my iris went down To Mexico to live. A friend vacations there and takes plants to her Mexican workers.
Iris - compost isn't "waste", it's "valuable product"! I am almost certain some of the things my mother grows are purely to compost, as part of her master plan.
Iris - compost isn't "waste", it's "valuable product"! I am almost certain some of the things my mother grows are purely to compost, as part of her master plan.
In permaculture class, we were taught to throw down alfalfa, oat and bean seeds in the fall--not for eventual harvest of food, but to add nitrogen-fixers to the soil that would be chopped down and tilled under simply to enrich the soil. I thought it was kind of funny to grow an edible crop for a purpose other than eating it, but it makes sense, and I did throw down alfalfa and oat seeds.
This discussion has been so interesting! Over the years we have all kinds--real, artificial, and one with the root ball that we planted after Christmas. We haven't done a Christmas tree for several years now and I can't say that I miss it. I have other decorations that I put out for Christmas. But the tree was just more trouble than it was worth. IMHO.
I thought it was kind of funny to grow an edible crop for a purpose other than eating it, but it makes sense, and I did throw down alfalfa and oat seeds.
Well, I do have a bit of land here where I plant edible crops, for the ducks, pheasants, and geese. I merely charge the flocks a certain....tax....to feed there :-)
Laser_Cat
12-2-12, 10:34am
On a side note, that's a beautiful view you have bae!! Looks like a slice of heaven out there =)
About half a mile away from me is a very large and popular tree farm that grows and sells a lot of trees. I moved here about 6 years ago and have watched the trees planted near the road grow from litle tiny things to fully grown trees. It breaks my heart to see them cut down :(
My only consolation is that if they're not cut, they may still be here next year, unlike the ones that are pre-cut. If they're not bought, they were grown and cut for nothing. Except mulch.
If they're not bought, they were grown and cut for nothing. Except mulch.
Well, in my state, keeping the land in production as timber or farmland by growing Christmas trees keeps the land taxed as ag lands. This helps preserve the land as open/farm/timer/ag resource lands, instead of being subdivided and sold off for hobby farms and suburban expansion.
In permaculture class, we were taught to throw down alfalfa, oat and bean seeds in the fall--not for eventual harvest of food, but to add nitrogen-fixers to the soil that would be chopped down and tilled under simply to enrich the soil. I thought it was kind of funny to grow an edible crop for a purpose other than eating it, but it makes sense, and I did throw down alfalfa and oat seeds.
When I was young my Dad planted a cover crop at least once a year, sometimes twice depending on the primary crop and the desired outcome. Alfalfa was a primary crop for us since the hay was valuable as livestock feed, but also served in the role of "green manure". It was always in a field somewhere in the crop rotation. Other than that, clover and winter rye were the go-to choices most years.
In my case I view it as weeding
We used to live right on the edge of a national forest and had the same notion. Our Christmas tree was always the most symmetrical specimen from a group of young trees growing close enough to each other that some were not going to make it to maturity anyway. We harvested the one that would look best in our living room figuring nature would be able to help the others along.
For me as a burb dweller I just can't bring myself to a tree. The artificial ones are sort of phony, the tree farmed ones are too perfect, come from many states away and are already drying out when you buy them, and the natural ones from the mountains in my region cost an arm and a leg. For 3 weeks of the year, it just doesn't seem worth it. There are other ways to get into the Holiday spirit that work as good for me. I get a nice wreath from a local nursery that is supposed to be from regional trees and made locally and call it good. If I had kids, it would be different.
I do have great memories as a kid and going down to the tree lot with my dad. We would go through the lot and stand up the various trees comparing them to find the best. That was before tree farms and they were all sort of Charlie Brown trees.
Our Christmas tree was always the most symmetrical specimen ...
We usually go with a Charlie Brown-type tree, uneven and somewhat unloved. But we have a great corner spot to place a tree, so the bare spot is an advantage.
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