View Full Version : Bootsie (or anyone else w/knoweledge) i.e. Amish, Mennonite, Hutterites.
Bootsie. I may have it wrong, so please excuse me if I've mistaken you for someone else (old forum), but if my mind serves me correctly I think it was you who had knowledge of one particular individual class of these people and I'd love to hear about them/talk about them with you.
goldensmom
2-23-11, 5:33pm
Mrs. M., a good sized Amish community moved in around us about 25 years ago. Neighbors (as in next door)** business persons, mostly regular folk. We can't help but to have interaction with one another. If not for the identifying beards, headcoverings and clothing you'd not be able to separate the Amish folk from the rest of us. Visitors will comment on that 'Amish' family, I jokingly say to my husband, I wonder if people speak of us as that 'Baptist' family. Also, there is a good sized population of Holdeman Mennonites in the area. No Hutterites. E-mail me if you wish.
**By 'next door' I mean the next farm over which is nearly a mile away but still 'next door' in the country use of the term.
Mrs. Hermit
2-23-11, 6:01pm
I belonged to a Mennonite church for several years.
I don't any special knowledge of Amish except I've read books about them and find them interesting. I think you may have me mixed up with someone who knows more than I do.
Hi Goldensmom and Mrs. Hermit. To open things up I'll mention that about a year ago I came across a really good article on the Amish, and one particular part of the article that stood out in my mind the most was the fact that more and more Amish people are welcoming into their lives modern ways. i.e. Electricity, gasoline powered engines/vehicles, etc. I wonder why all the changes? (Departing from their traditional ways and all).
Do you still find a majority of Amish and Mennonite people you know are living true to their ways?
Hi Bootsie. My apologies, I was certain it was you, but do feel free in adding anything you can as I've always taken an interest in all three movements. I deeply admire them and even relate to them (on a simple level) as to the way they do things and the way many of us as SL practitioners do things. In fact I long for the lifestyle (at times) whenever I see one of their black horse-drawn buggies speeding along side the highway or on a busy main-street right in the heart of Pennsylvania.
goldensmom
2-24-11, 7:50am
I'll bet you wouldn't long for the horse and buggy lifestyle in minus degree, wind blown snowy weather as I saw earlier this week!! Many use propane heaters in the buggies but it still looks mighty cold in there.
We have Amish boys work on our farm. They are Old Order Amish. They smoke, drink, have cell phones, jazz up their buggies and listen to rock music. They will drive trucks and tractors on the farm and do most things others do who are of a similar age. Most are married at an early age. No beards before marriage, beards after. The girls wear white dokes before marriage and black after. The girls can be employed out of the home before marriage but stay home after. They wear the garb most identified with Amish but the girls will wear sweatshirts and sweat pants under their dresses in cold weather. No help in the heat. Boys will swim in shorts and girls take their socks off, hike up their dresses and wade in the shallow water. They are kids.
Their church services are bi-weekly and last most of the day. Services are in homes/barns. There are several congregations in the area, each a little different but basically the same Ordnung. They are not hooked up to public utilities but use propane/solar power/generators/batteries to power household appliances. Their homes are just like ours except for the energy source. They will ride in but not own vehicles. They will not own a camera but I've been asked to take pictures for them. They farm with horses using equipment powered by gas engines (looks funny). They have their own schools, up to 8th grade. They pay all the taxes we do including school taxes. Around here there is a lot of special needs Amish children so they use special education through the public school system. Although known to not participate with private insurance companies I know of several situations where the Crippled Childrens program through the local public health department has been used for children with severe medical needs.
Lots more but your question as to why they are opening up to more modern ways, from my observation it is their young people who see less and less evil in modern conveniences. As younger people become the leaders their ideas filter into their lifestyle. The Amish lifestyle is to be outward (although extreme) evidence that they are 'in the world but not of the world' but the pull of the world is strong even among the Amish.
Mrs. Hermit
2-24-11, 10:32am
It is easy to see the Mennonite or Amish style dress and think that they all believe the same. But they have sects (Ordnung) just like most religions. The Amish all believe that the Church has the final say over matters of faith and practice. Which means that if the elders of the sect decide to allow solar energy appliances, but not high-line electric, that is what each member within that sect can have. Each technology is examined to determine if it will detract from their faith practices: ie., the desire live in community with each other, or if it will tempt people to lessen their seperation from the world (become worldly), or if it will negatively impact the family unity. For example, some sects don't want people driving cars because then the families won't be together as much. They (for the most part--there are so many Amish/Mennonite that generalizations are difficult) don't oppose technology as a whole. They just want to be sure that technology serves their goals, not the other way around.
Because each sect decides for itself what is appropriate, you can see practices that vary; and that will change as society changes. Some groups refuse change, some embrace change. The Old Order Amish tend to be more conservative than the Old Order New Amish, for example.
goldensmom
2-24-11, 11:43am
They (for the most part--there are so many Amish/Mennonite that generalizations are difficult) don't oppose technology as a whole. They just want to be sure that technology serves their goals, not the other way around.
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Excellent points Mrs. Hermit. A couple of I examples of 'technology serves their goals, not the other way around.' Years ago only Amish homes that ran a business from the home had land line telephones. Now nearly every household has a land line telephone in a small building separate from the house. I asked why the phone was not in the house and was told so they could control the phone and to assure that the phone did not become an interruption to the family. Some families travel to Mexico for medical treatment or out of state to visit relatives so the bus lines and airport have a lot of Amish traffic. Here's an interesting point, around here the Amish are at the forefront in using wind energy.
Good morning Goldensmom and MH. Wonderful! This is so enjoyable hearing about them. Yes, telephones, that was another tidbit that was mentioned in the article I was reading. (More and more telephones in homes).
I'm bad for romanticizing about farm life, old-fashioned life (early 1900's), and many other things to include- Amish, Mennonite, and Hutterite way of living, but having such a love for simplicity and "old ways" brings me back again and again to their lifestyles. A lot of it (the way I feel) is the result of having an old-fashioned upbringing myself, and so as an adult I do tend to dream and as I say "romanticize" about living an more traditional/old-fashioned lifestyle. (Everything done at home, everything prepared from scratch, and the closeness that comes about and arises as a result of always being together as a family).
I sometimes catch myself dreaming of what it would be like to have another neighbouring family stop by on a Sunday (after church) for tea and biscuits on the veranda, all of us gathered around in our Sunday's finest, talking and sharing. Having acreage for the kids to roam and play freely and openly on, and being woken to the sights and sounds of farm animals starting their day.
Although very private, they seem like such passive and kind people. I admire the skills they carry with them, and the hardworking determination they all possess, to strive for a life removed and isolated from the ordinary.
Question: As a non-Amish or Mennonite or Hutterite class, would "we" still be accepted into their lives as friends and close neighbours? Would they open the doors up of the homes and allow us inside?
I'm not sure about the Amish but I know that the Mennonites and Hutterites are very neighbourly. We have both in our community and "we" are accepted as friends and neighbours. They may dress differently and have some other different beliefs but underneath it all they are people just like us.
Hi Libby. Thanks for the additional info! What I especially like about the people is that they seem so knowledgeable on most everything. They also seem like the kind of people that would come to the rescue of friends and neighbours in the time of need. I often picture them joining forces with one another to help build a barn or garage. They just seem so down to earth to me and that's a quality I have always fancied.
The Hutterites are very often first on the scene of fires in this area. The colonies have their own fire trucks and they are more than willing to help.
goldensmom
2-24-11, 6:54pm
Question: As a non-Amish or Mennonite or Hutterite class, would "we" still be accepted into their lives as friends and close neighbours? Would they open the doors up of the homes and allow us inside?
Based on my experience the answer to your question is yes and no. Open doors to the home, yes, to their lives, no. I've been in homes and have been accommodated and treated cordially. On a whole, this group is helpful and pleasant to interact with. I've had many, many personal contacts with the Amish in this area. Some of those contacts have been of a long standing nature as I've watched the boys who work for us grow to men with families. Those contacts on an individual basis have been open, friendly, warm and reciprocal. On the other hand, I've been invited to weddings and have attended funerals and dinners. In a group setting I was either ignored by those who I thought I knew well or acknowledged with a head nod. In other words, one on one I felt accepted but when in a group there was definitely a separation, a coolness. I've shared my experience with other 'English' who have experienced the same thing. Just my story and not a general assessment of all Amish peoples.
Please do not look at the Amish only thru rose colored glasses. The life is based on strict adherence to local rules and based on family and community. An Amish person really cannot be without their family/community as that is what their whole lives are based around. Being single, not having children, being different in any way is hard and in some cases impossible.
They have many good qualities but they are also human and as good and as flawed as ordinary non Amish people. They have murder, sexual abuse, drug abuse, domestic abuse, just as the surrounding communities. There was just an article about a huge Ponzi scheme ala Madoff perpetrated by an Amish man who stole from his Amish friends and neighbors.
I think what we miss most in our lives are the feeling of having a tight support system and "friends". It is built into the Amish system of family and church (family).
Question: As a non-Amish or Mennonite or Hutterite class, would "we" still be accepted into their lives as friends and close neighbours? Would they open the doors up of the homes and allow us inside?
My grandparents lived in a very Amish area of Ohio, and most of their neighbors were Amish. My grandparents still spoke German in the home themselves, though they were Catholic, not Amish. I used to spend a good bit of the summer living with my grandparents, and often stayed with them after school, and grew up speaking some German myself. Our Amish neighbors were quite friendly with my grandparents - his neighbors were helping care for my grandfather until his death, and in constant communication with me about what was going on. They were in the process of helping set him up with a buggy himself, as he could no longer drive near the end, so he could still get into market, which I thought was very cool.
I have learned a lot about thoughtful adoption of technology over the years from talking with the neighbors. Mrs. Hermit captures the thinking nicely. The Amish folks I know don't reject technology out of hand. They just want to understand what the technology will do to their way of life and their culture before leaping into it. They do experiments to see, sometimes trying a new technology in a few places for *decades* before judging.
There is a terrible tendency to see the Amish as frozen in time, through a rosy Disney lens. The real Amish are considerably different.
Hey Mrs M. I think I posted about doing some work at Hutterite schools. This would have been in November.
Hutterites are an anabaptist sect like the Amish and Old Order Mennonite. I've been able to see how it's done from colony to colony. In some colonies, things are very strict, others are more open. Personal entertainment technology is frowned upon and in some colonies absolutely forbidden. Most families (it is said) have a radio in the back of their living quarters. There are no TVs but sometimes men will go into town and watch sports at the bar. Some colonies allow their students to use educational DVDs and computer programs. Some don't.
At the colonies I went to they eat together all three meals a day. The men sit on one side of the room, women on the other. Children age 5-14 eat separately from the adults. Children under age 5 eat at home. Mom will stay home till an older girl comes to relieve her. As an "English" person I ate with the teachers. Sometimes, an older girl brought the dinner. Sometimes, the teachers ate in the dining room apart from everyone else. Sometimes, we went through the line before everyone else.
Education is for everyone up to grade 8. Some colonies have opted in to an Intranet online school for boys and girls. Other colonies allow only boys to participate. I've heard tell of a Hutterite college but I couldn't tell you the name. I suspect it is probably Mennonite.
The kids go to school from 7:30 - 5 or so. From 7:30 - 8:30 they go to German school. 9 - 11:30 and then 12:30 - 3:00 is English school. 3:30 - 5:00 is more German school unless they are needed for farm chores. The schools are run by the local school district so the teachers are all English.
The kids all speak English fairly well. A lot of it depends on how hard their teachers rides them about speaking German in English school. As a rule, they are well behaved as things are fairly strict with regard to how children should behave.
The only way to leave a colony in good graces is to go start a new colony or marry someone from a different colony. You don't just leave. If you do leave, the onlly way you can return is to stay. There is no visiting. However, if someone does runaway, it is not uncommon to communicate through the neighbor or teacher. Running away is a topic that simmers below the surface.
I admire their industry, work ethic and committment to their faith and family. Generally, there is not a lot of opportunity for women or even men, really, unless you become one of the leaders in a colony run industry.
Many of the families have cell phones. Some older boys were helping me load up my car and saw my dead cell phone in the trunk. I let them have it and spent the next week in a paroxysm of anxiety that I did something forbidden. I didn't get any angry phone calls and I was allowed to go to other colonies so I assume no one cared.
Hutterites generally are friendly with their neighbors, their teachers and other English that come across their path. The openess depends on the colony. The Christmas program is a huge deal. One colony invites practically the whole town; another doesn't allow any "outsiders".
I think it would be hard to be a Hutterite woman. Sometimes, I really struggle with that with the girls I work with, knowing that they don't a lot of choices for their future. However, in terms of quality of life, I can't say it's across the board horrible for each and everyone.
Good morning everybody! :) I can't express to you all enough how much I appreciate all of your stories and knowledge and experiences. This is great.
Just as an example, one area where I know I relate to their lifestyle is in the closeness they all seem to share. Seems nowadays the tradition of sitting down together as a family at supper time to be one, and to share the happenings and goings-ons of each others day has become all but nonexistent, whereas I don't see the same within an Amish or Mennonite or Hutterite community.
I know looking in from the outside (like I'm doing) tends to skew and distort a lot of the truth and underpinnings surrounding the daily life of such people, yet somehow I still seem to be able to gather up enough insight through reading about them and catching the odd television program about them, that I feel as though I could welcome a big part of their ways into my life and be perfectly content with living in the manner in which they do.
At times I view them as being a lost civilization or sorts, a movement lost in time if you will, and it is by way of that characteristic where I tend to see their lifestyle through rose coloured lenses. Maybe it's my own spirit calling out to me seeing how I've always had such a love for the past.
Anne Lee. I'm so disappointed in myself over missing your entry last fall regarding doing work at Hutterite schools. So glad you decided to drop by this thread and share.
Some colonies do accept converts. :laff:
Hi Anne Lee, for me that means all is not lost! :laff:
Originally posted by Goldensmom.
Some of those contacts have been of a long standing nature as I've watched the boys who work for us grow to men with families. Those contacts on an individual basis have been open, friendly, warm and reciprocal. On the other hand, I've been invited to weddings and have attended funerals and dinners. In a group setting I was either ignored by those who I thought I knew well or acknowledged with a head nod. In other words, one on one I felt accepted but when in a group there was definitely a separation, a coolness.This I would struggle with, but I'm extremely sensitive to that sort of thing. My mind and thought process would never allow me to move past it. It would destroy whatever had been built.
Be careful not to confuse the Amish and Mennonites. Old Order Mennonites live much the same way as the Amish, but you can't tell the difference between Reformed Mennonites and the rest of us without asking. The latter drive cars, live in modern homes, and dress just like like other North Americans. They also tend to be activists, especially for peace, whereas the Amish keep very much to themselves.
As for accepting converts, there's an Amish community in Tennesee, I think, that actually allows outsiders to live there for a time and see if they want to convert. I remember reading a book by someone who tried it out quite a few years ago. I can't remember much in the way of details, unfortunately.
You might find the Bruderhof communities of interest as well. I spent a weekend at the Rifton, NY, community with a Baptist minister and his wife a little over ten years ago and it was a fascinating experience. Here's their website with lots of photos, history, et cetera: http://www.churchcommunities.org/ Their oldest daughter and her husband lived there, and Mrs. Minister wanted to do so herself when the two of them retired.
Mrs-M, you might like reading this book: "I Am Hutterite" by Mary-Ann Kirkby. It's a memoir by a woman who grew up as a Hutterite and she describes the good and bad sides. I found it very interesting. It's also the Canadian perspective as the colonies are near Winnipeg (where I live). She published it a few years ago, and is about your age, roughly, so it's also quite modern (in that there was access to all the normal stuff we've had in the last decades - not from 100 years ago).
Hi Jemima and Kestra. Thank you so kindly for your interest in my thread. Until the introduction of this topic I was completely and totally unaware of any differences between old order versus new order classes. That is very interesting and opens up my level of curiosity further. What I would give to just live with an Amish or Mennonite or Hutterite family for a time. As far as the Bruderhof communities go, I've never heard of them before. I'll definitely check out the link. Thanks for that. Kestra, I really appreciate the book read recommendation. I'm a really poor reader but (in lieu of my interest in this) am going to see if our public library can get it in for me. Being that it's based on the Canadian perspective especially strikes my fancy. Thank you ever so kindly everybody.
An intesting site full of info is http://amishamerica.com/.
Oh, awesome site Sweetana3! Thank you so much. I love all the different variety of buggies! Going to delve in deeper today.
goldensmom
2-27-11, 6:41am
This I would struggle with, but I'm extremely sensitive to that sort of thing. My mind and thought process would never allow me to move past it. It would destroy whatever had been built.
Initially being 'snubbed' bothered me too, Mrs. M.. When I learned that I was not the only one who experienced this type of behavior in a group setting, I decided to ‘re-frame this picture’ and accepted it as just the way it is. Their behavior does not dictate my behavior so I continued to and will continue to treat my Amish friends and acquaintances with agape love, not expecting them to change but to change my expectations.
Good morning Goldensmom. I overlooked mentioning to you that I really appreciated you extending the invitation my way as to contacting you via email. (I got so carried away with interacting with everyone here I forgot all about it). Nonetheless, thank you so much for that. :)
Yeah, the snubbing thing I've really been struggling with ever since you mentioned it. (Felt bad for you). I've been snubbed over the course of my lifetime by people I never expected it from, and it ended up resulting in the demise of whatever friendship/relationship had been built. I'm somewhat of a no-tolerance kind of person when it comes to issues such as that, so I really admire you for your determination to be able to look past and move past such occurrences and events. You are much stronger than me.
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