View Full Version : Civility online
rodeosweetheart
3-6-14, 10:38am
Has anyone else noticed an increasing tendency of people online to be unpleasant, uncivil, and even downright rude?
I teach online and am required to be unfailingly polite in my job. If I am not, I will lose my job. So I work hard to remain pleasant. But it is getting increasingly difficult, as the belligerence of students, the sense of entitlement, and the attitude of "what I want I want immediately, and you are there as my customer service person" just gets worse and worse and worse over the years.
Even on these forums, I see an increase in really nasty communication, sort of bulldozing of others opinions, where if someone dares to disagree with whatever position a poster is promoting, or in some cases, not even the op, they are attacked as being a terrible person. It seems that very quickly, online communication polarizes people.
I don't think it's just the winter going on too long. I think online is turning us into really unpleasant people.
I am feeling very discouraged, as my job requires 12 hours a day in this environment, and I don' think I can stand it much longer.
Has anyone else noticed this?
Sad Eyed Lady
3-6-14, 10:49am
rodeosweetheart, I have noticed it too but probably not to the degree you have in your teaching. I have a facebook page and mainly it is a good way for me to keep up with far-flung relatives because these few cousins are the only family I have now as my blood relatives. It is great for that. I do look at the posts and sometimes get so discouraged that I think about giving up fb altogether except for the fact of these contacts with people, and, (I must admit), I do enjoy playing a couple of the games. But to answer your question, I do see this mean spirited attitude sometimes and wonder about it - I guess it is just easier to type a nasty comment than it would be to say it to a person's face. Also, and I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wonder about people who display their whole lives on facebook! I find that a real phenomenon. Public display where used to be, some of this stuff would just be an intimate talk between best friends. I agree that online is changing the face of communication.
ToomuchStuff
3-6-14, 12:32pm
Yes. Although I question if hiding behind the keyboard makes one unpleasant, because I am not sure how it would create that out of nothing. (the unpleasantness is already there)
Gardenarian
3-6-14, 12:32pm
I haven't noticed any increase in hostility.
I have noticed an increase in cursing, which is distasteful.
goldensmom
3-6-14, 12:40pm
I have posted a few questions on support forums (i.e. Verizon) and along with answers I have read rude, inconsiderate and totally unnecessary responses to other posters comments. I've also noticed the same thing in comments on videos demeaning another posters comments. Our local newspaper has comments sections for new articles and the same thing there. Maybe it's the anonymity or maybe it's a reflection on our society as a whole. Either way it's sad.
ApatheticNoMore
3-6-14, 1:20pm
No. I think the web has always been that way. Having been the target of "witch hunts" and the like online a decade and a half ago. It's really not some new phenomena. But it is true people are more rude online than they are in person, that's very true, but I think it's been true since the beginning of the web, medium is the message or something.
I do find myself cursing more online. but @#$# that if I want to f'in curse I will :laff: (yes many of my curses are actually self censored like that)
Rodeosweetheart, doesn't your platform/employer have a user conduct policy? Are those just laughable, or can they be truly enforced, i.e., if someone, especially after being warned, breaks the policy they could be kicked off?
I think the shield of anonymity really brings out the worst in people online. Kind of like when you're in your car and you are fine with communicating with the guy who cut you off with a rude gesture because you have your car to protect you.. in this case, most people online are relatively anonymous and so all of the stuff that's normally constrained by the desire for approval is just out the window.
I get so depressed and in despair about human nature when I read comments after many news stories--that's where you see rudeness, hate, bigotry, hostility, and aggression in full swing.
onlinemoniker
3-6-14, 4:30pm
I have found the best thing to do is to avoid places on the internet known to support an argumentative atmosphere. Arguing in real life is great, exhilarating and stimulating. Arguing online is a downer and destructive to one's self-esteem.
On this site there are places I avoid because the atmosphere is not good for me. When some of that spills over into other areas, I avoid the thread.
Miss Cellane
3-6-14, 5:00pm
I think the shield of anonymity really brings out the worst in people online. Kind of like when you're in your car and you are fine with communicating with the guy who cut you off with a rude gesture because you have your car to protect you.. in this case, most people online are relatively anonymous and so all of the stuff that's normally constrained by the desire for approval is just out the window.
I get so depressed and in despair about human nature when I read comments after many news stories--that's where you see rudeness, hate, bigotry, hostility, and aggression in full swing.
I agree. It's easy to be rude and uncouth when no one can see you and no one knows who you really are.
When you are face to face with someone, it's a bit harder to be out and out rude. Well, at least for most of us, it is.
I tend to stick to well-moderated forums where the worst offenders are reminded of the rules of the forum. If they don't obey them, they get banned.
rodeosweetheart
3-6-14, 6:20pm
Really interesting comments, and that's why I love this forum so much, that people talk about things in depth and from many angles and viewpoints.
In a psychology class I teach, I have my students so a self-observational project where they spend three 20 minute periods on three different websites, Blackboard, Facebook or other social media site, and Pinterest or other special interest hobby site. To a student, almost all report feeling anxiety on Blackboard and irritation and hostility on Facebook. They tend to be very surprised at their mood lability on Facebook, as they think of it as a positive place.
The only one where people seem happy is Pinterest!
As to students and platform rules, we have rules, of course, and I will remove a student's post if it is attacking another student, but I was more talking about the way they grandstand and try to intimidate each other, too subtly for the rules, but the air of condescension, as though the other person's opinion is not as valuable as their own,. And the way they attempt to bully me by email. And I cannot just not answer their emails when they are rude; I have to be patient, almost infinitely so.
All I can think of is how irritated I get when put on those interminable music holds when I try to get help with straightening out something with my health insurance. Is this how everyone gets, with too much time online? Are we all feeling so powerless and devalued that we go online and try to make others--well, admire us? respect us? listen to us? I just don't know anymore.
I think some people find online a great place to show off, to be who they would like to be--smartest student in the room, or coolest parent on Facebook, or whatever.
My friend's daughter committed suicide after being bullied on Facebook. I have deleted my account and want nothing to do with any of it.
A family member told me a story of a friend of hers who is a college teacher (in classroom, not online.) On the first day of class she laid out a few classroom rules, one of which is please do not come in or go out during class unless absolutely necessary because it is distracting to the other students.
At the end of class a female student came up to her and said, "I'm paying for this class and I'll come and go as I damn well please." Then she sauntered out. So if that's what a student says to a college professor face-to-face, I'm sure their online comments are that and worse. .
My sympathies.
ToomuchStuff
3-6-14, 11:46pm
In a psychology class I teach, I have my students so a self-observational project where they spend three 20 minute periods on three different websites, Blackboard, Facebook.....
I think some people find online a great place to show off, to be who they would like to be--smartest student in the room, or coolest parent on Facebook, or whatever.
My friend's daughter committed suicide after being bullied on Facebook. I have deleted my account and want nothing to do with any of it.
:confused:
Nothing but a teaching tool?
I used to work at a call center, and we agreed that customers would be far nastier on the phone than they ever would be if they were facing us in real life. And I agree with catherine, they're even nastier on the internet, due to anonymity. .....and I think the Internet itself creates anxiety and impatience. I meet weekly with a small group who are working through a how-to book about living a more fulfilling life, and the assignment a couple of weeks ago pushed several of us to drastically limit our 'net time. We all agreed that not only was our week more productive, but we felt calmer and less stressed. (of course, I say this as I'm browsing an Internet forum! :) As far as your students, rodeosweetheart, I truly think all the internet, video games, reality TV shows, and constant bombardment of media has created little monsters who display self-entitled, self-centered.....well, selfishness!
and I bet that nasty little student WASN'T paying for that college class, bet mommy and daddy were
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 8:22am
Befree-"and I think the Internet itself creates anxiety and impatience."
That's it, in a nutshell!
Toomuch-
"Nothing but a teaching tool?
That never occurred to me, Toomuch. I am confused by the emotion you have here. I guess this is part of what confuses me about online communication--the emoticons seem to carry meaning that I do not quite grasp. Can you clarify the message? Thanks!
ToomuchStuff
3-7-14, 9:08am
It is the closest icon to a confusion one. I am questioning how using it in a classroom, is not having anything to do with it? (maybe it was used until that point, or maybe still used. Can't tell from how it is written, but seemed like a glaring inconsistency to me.)
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 9:17am
It is the closest icon to a confusion one. I am questioning how using it in a classroom, is not having anything to do with it? (maybe it was used until that point, or maybe still used. Can't tell from how it is written, but seemed like a glaring inconsistency to me.)
Okay, so what you were doing was trying to show a "glaring inconsistency" in my actions.
That makes sense, the emoticon, as that is what it seemed to do, to register "faux confusion", but I couldn't tell. Thanks for the clarification.
You are absolutely right; using it in the classroom is using it, isn't it? That did not occur to me. I was saying "using" Facebook as in having an account, reading posts of others, communicating through others through Facebook. I stopped doing that after reflecting on Facebook itself, and what happened to my friend's daughter, how vicious the environment seemed to be.
My bad with word choice, and thank you for pointing it out to me.
Has anyone else noticed an increasing tendency of people online to be unpleasant, uncivil, and even downright rude?Rather, I've noticed that that is not the case. I'm not saying that aren't "unpleasant, uncivil, and even downright rude" people online, but rather I'm saying that I see no substantial, recent change in that, or even the extent of it.
The phenomenon of online incivility goes back to the late 1980s when control of the Internet passed from a cabal of research institutes to more commercial use of the Internet, culminating in 1995, when the Internet was effectively opened up to anyone who would pay an ISP for access. The rough and often crude "culture" of the Internet started developing then, and was effectively in full bloom within a few years. The kind of incivility you see today was fully evident in 1999.
Over the last fifteen years, you can find myriad discussion threads, blog entries, etc., claiming how the Internet had just recently become uncivil. My understanding is that these observations, however, are simply a reflection of how the correspondent had recently come into contact with the full breadth of the Internet "culture", which had been there previously albeit not apparent to the correspondent.
There is no doubt that some small corners of the Internet remain out of the fray for periods of time, and then suddenly start experiencing what is standard across the entire Internet. This often aligns with ascendancy of popularity of that small corner. For example, there were several investing forums I know of that remained relative free of vitriol for years, and then suddenly changed after many people become much more interested in personal finance after the 2008 financial crash.
Another major factor is the extent of moderation. Many online communities have started (or became) moderated, and then that moderation was relaxed (since there is good reason to believe that lack of moderation increases impressions and clickthoughs - the means the business of online advertising uses to determine how much to pay websites for hosting advertisements), resulting in an influx of new participants, bringing with them the standard Internet "culture".
Also, like any natural system, the prevalence of incivility ebbs and flows over time. For example, 2008 and 2009 were especially vitriolic years, online, as was 2012 and 2013. The fact that these correspond to the year leading up to a US presidential election and the year of aftermath of the results of that election is probably not coincidental.
I teach online and am required to be unfailingly polite in my job. If I am not, I will lose my job. So I work hard to remain pleasant.I faced a similar situation between 1997 and 2001. I had been a very active participant in online communities starting in 1985. As the Internet became sharply more uncivil, that posed great challenges for those of us who interacted online in a professional capacity, as was the general case before 1995. My employment situation actually helped resolve the conflict for me for a period of time: I held two certifications that prohibited officials like myself from interacting online in a professional capacity.
But it is getting increasingly difficult, as the belligerence of students, the sense of entitlement, and the attitude of "what I want I want immediately, and you are there as my customer service person" just gets worse and worse and worse over the years.Luckily, for me, I retired from the professional discipline in 2001, entirely, when I relinquished my certification. So my reentry into the online community has been almost completely social in nature, and my second career is one within which I couldn't possibly achieve the level of incivility that my "contemporaries" regularly engage in, so my comparatively more civil demeanor actually helps me stand out a bit from the rabble I would interact with professionally, online.
Even on these forums, I see an increase in really nasty communication, sort of bulldozing of others opinions, where if someone dares to disagree with whatever position a poster is promoting, or in some cases, not even the op, they are attacked as being a terrible person. It seems that very quickly, online communication polarizes people.Again, I don't see it that way. I hope you don't perceive my saying so as an attack on you as a person.
Interacting with others naturally means interacting with people who disagree with me. Someone else cogently disputing something I have stated online is something I consider as a normal and reasonable response that I expect to see from people who hold to a different perspective. The only way to I can avoid encountering other people working hard to soundly and comprehensively assert something I believe wrong is to keep my perspectives to myself, or to post only in moderated venues where a specific, defined perspective is the only one that is permitted. I participate in a forum like that, where adherents to my faith can engage in discussions with the safety of moderation prohibiting disparagement of our religion. (I also participate in comparative religion forums, where such give-and-take is permitted, but invariably the level of vitriol is an order of magnitude higher.)
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 11:11am
bUU, thank you for such a thoughtful and insightful response, which I am digesting, because you are making many important points and I need to take them in and understand your post.
"Again, I don't see it that way. I hope you don't perceive my saying so as an attack on you as a person."
Heavens, no, nothing you have said attacks me as a person.
I'm really not trying to say everyone needs to agree with me or anyone else, just that the way people disagree seems to me to have changed. As you point out, maybe it is not the Internet that has changed, it is that I have spent so much time on it over the past 5 years of teaching, that I am getting the fuller picture.
It strikes me that one thing that internet discussion has changed is this: people did not used to often, express a political opinion in casual society. Now our social interaction regularly include politics. And here I use "politics" in a broad way because most everything is political in one way or another.And when the media puts hot topics in front of us on the computer screen daily, designed to elicit strong reaction, it's not surprising that after viewing Yahoo News someone goes to their Facebook page and comment on the stupidity of the Prez or The Congress.
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 11:30am
"And when the media puts hot topics in front of us on the computer screen daily, designed to elicit strong reaction, it's not surprising that after viewing Yahoo News someone goes to their Facebook page and comment on the stupidity of the Prez or The Congress."
I was just thinking about that, too, since when I turn on my new computer, it goes right to a Toshiba page and there was some teaser this morning about "guess what gaffe the President committed today" but you had to open it to find out. Talk about manipulation. . .
ToomuchStuff
3-7-14, 11:50am
It isn't just the computer screen. Newspapers do it as well as talk radio shows (especially when they have more then one person on it), to get you to "feedback". Then they can use that feedback to show they have x listeners, to get sponser money, to continue that cycle. The news, however funny, does it as well. As an example, one that po'd a friend of mine, the local news said x number of kids die every day from bath salts, tune in to learn what you need to know to prevent it, coming up, three days away. His view was the news then, would be an accomplice since they didn't prevent those x deaths before the story.
Viewership = money, and money = programs to bring viewership, repeat.
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 11:58am
Sad-Eyed Lady: "Also, and I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wonder about people who display their whole lives on facebook! I find that a real phenomenon."
I do, too, a weird phenomenon, and it seems kind of dangerous.
rodeosweetheart
3-7-14, 12:00pm
Toomuch: 'As an example, one that po'd a friend of mine, the local news said x number of kids die every day from bath salts, tune in to learn what you need to know to prevent it, coming up, three days away. His view was the news then, would be an accomplice since they didn't prevent those x deaths before the story.'
Yes!! I completely agree. It's not news, then, and if they had this information and could save a life by sharing it, then why withhold it. Quite right.
Sad-Eyed Lady: "Also, and I don't mean to hi-jack this thread, but I wonder about people who display their whole lives on facebook! I find that a real phenomenon."
I do, too, a weird phenomenon, and it seems kind of dangerous.
That is REALLY ill-advised. Did you read about the 18-year old whose parents had won an age discrimination suit? The terms of the settlement were that nothing about it could be divulged. The girl came right out and said "Mom and Dad won $80,000, so my spring vacation will be compliments of [whatever the firm was]" Something like that. Well, that move cost her parents 80 grand.
So, so stupid. And I also am not comfortable with the blurring of the lines of business and personal on FB. I have friends in both camps on my FB account and everything I post I go through my entire friend list to make sure I'm not going to be sharing something that I don't want shared with clients. I guess I should join Google groups or something, but FB is still the place to be (although some tell me it's waning in that regard)
ToomuchStuff
3-7-14, 12:28pm
FB CAN be a way to stay in touch with people, but at increasing costs of time and energy. The reason I say that is every time FB has a change that affects the privacy policy, I hear from someone whose privacy settings were "auto changed". I understand why some people are required to have a page (celebrity/employment advertising reasons), but have had discussions ("I don't want to be reading this in the enquirer), with them, as well as some local LEO friends, because of issues that could put peoples lives in danger (from undercover officers having a page or being on someones, to people who are at high risks for crimes more serious then a break in). I would and still hope they do (and I don't know about it, from lack of use), allow fake names for some of those people (celeb's do have to change numbers on occasion for a reason).
I know there have been posts here, calling out those of us about "the evils of facebook", but I don't need someones safety, to be on my conscious. It is why, when there have been posts (we are having this discussion on FB), I suggest having one here.
The extreme polarization of political discourse goes back at least fifteen years, and has only grown marginally over the intervening period. And that spilled over into the online sphere just as much back then as it does today. There are simply more people online now than back then.
There are people who share too much information about themselves online, but just as many people share false information about themselves online. I wouldn't take anything anyone says about themselves online at face value unless you have a personal relationship with that person.
Fascinating thread!
Just a side note: in Israel, where I teach English as a Foreign Language, the whole pedagogical thrust is to get students more and more proficient at using the computer to communicate and work in English, rather than face to face. The general understanding is that for Israelis, most of them will be using English only for computer-based applications in their future work careers, so they might as well start practicing for it now. The tricky part is, the entrance exam for University has a great deal of listening comprehension and oral interview components, so in many ways the curriculum is trying to achieve too many goals at the same time. Online interaction, at least through textual communications, is not the same as face-to-face dialogue, public speaking, and so on.
I also teach English online to Indian adult students, who are desperately trying to improve their English for career reasons. Fortunately for me, these students are unfailingly polite. They need to work on their spoken English and comprehension more than reading and writing, as the vast majority of them are working in call centers servicing American and other English speaking countries. They often say they are frequently verbally abused by their customers for having insufficient English or impenetrable accents, or for even having the job in the first place--how dare they "take" an American job away from an American, etc. Talk about shooting the messenger!
Gardenarian
3-8-14, 2:37pm
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75/readaboutit/cookies_zpsb1808382.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/readaboutit/media/cookies_zpsb1808382.jpg.html)
I agree with everyone who has commented, here. It seems like the rudeness is going around, like a cold.
Strangely enough, I just read about some research coming out of a California university that says that on Facebook, at least, emotions expressed are indeed contagious among friends. However, positive messages are MORE contagious than the "downer" ones of people complaining and expressing hurt, anger, and outrage. The researchers believe that because of this finding, we can collectively learn to use it to cause "an epidemic of well being" on the planet. At last, good news!
Strangely enough, I just read about some research coming out of a California university that says that on Facebook, at least, emotions expressed are indeed contagious among friends. However, positive messages are MORE contagious than the "downer" ones of people complaining and expressing hurt, anger, and outrage. The researchers believe that because of this finding, we can collectively learn to use it to cause "an epidemic of well being" on the planet. At last, good news!
That IS good news. I'm sorry that we haven't had a posts on the "Success" forums especially about "enoughness." Probably I need to go over there and do that.
Gardenarian
3-24-14, 3:43pm
Strangely enough, I just read about some research coming out of a California university that says that on Facebook, at least, emotions expressed are indeed contagious among friends. However, positive messages are MORE contagious than the "downer" ones of people complaining and expressing hurt, anger, and outrage. The researchers believe that because of this finding, we can collectively learn to use it to cause "an epidemic of well being" on the planet. At last, good news!
Interesting. I find that on Pinterest so many of the postings are about acceptance, gratitude, faith, and encouragement. There is very little negativity there.
I think we're getting a little off-topic, but I think it is important to note that Facebook and Pinterest serve very different purposes, and so different nominal emotions are not surprising. Facebook prompts people to share far more deeply than Pinterest. Pinterest comes into play when something you encounter something you like, specifically, where Facebook is for things you like and things you don't like.
So what is the source for all of the Pinterest images? The general web, right? I guess if anyone is putting images up on the web, they are going to be recycled and recycled and pinned numerous times.
It is an interesting question, actually. Deep linking an image like that is actually considered to be a relatively non-enforceable copyright violation. I suppose Pinterest justifies it by saying that it is a link to the hosting page, but they are essentially making money off the very best (from Pinterest's own standpoint) of what others have created.
awakenedsoul
4-12-14, 10:26pm
I didn't read all the posts. Yes, I completely see what you're saying, rodeosweetheart. I think being on line does something strange, psychologically, to people. It's like they lose their boundaries. I try to spend no more than an hour a day on the computer, because it makes me feel agitated. Right now I'm taking an on line music course. I practice for an hour a day. My face feels tired when I finish. It feels like anxiety.
I am shocked at how oppositional people are on line. What's strangest to me is when they answer a thread with a complete negative. "No. That's a waste of time." That sort of attitude. I would just skip the thread if it were something that I don't do. Many people seem to be addicted to conflict and picking fights on line. Also, some people seem like they want to prove that they are intelligent, and they overcompensate. Often these are the people who struggle with grammar, spelling, and English basics. It's really weird. To me, it seems like the better writers are less likely to behave this way.
I think being on the Internet brings up repressed negative emotions in some people. It's a strange phenomenon. I phrase my threads very carefully now. I'm conscious of what I want to attract. Also, I don't want people posting to feel like someone else is going to jump on them, call them names, or put them down. It makes us lose people who are valuable.
Great thread, by the way...
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